Chinook Trolling Primer (ocean)

[Mark Mc]

Hi Y'all, Well it looks like there will be a sport salmon season this year (’06), thanks to many folks who wrote letters & supported the cause, our Oregon leadership, RFA rep, PFMC rep, and especially the Coastside Fishing Club leadership. Since we are so fortunate it's time for.....

.....my annual primer on ocean chinook trolling. Note that I'm not talking about coho; Oregonians know enough about catching them. I'm talking about big boxes of big fish:

[image][/image]

I'm gonna focus on "junk" (lures); bait is discussed in the (herring) tutorial on the tips page here: HERRING

Before diving, back up a minute and think about the calendar....the seasonal patterns that go from spring through fall. Early in the year (spring) the water is cold (upper 47 - 50) and clear. There may be some baitfish, but the upwelling hasn’t started yet so there isn’t much plankton. In late spring / early summer (April – May) as the winter southerlies become less frequent, and it blows northwest more often, the water starts to “turn over” and we get more upwelling…and hopefully the desireable 52-54 degree water. This causes the plankton blooms, and hopefully the krill to appear up high. When this happens the water turns brown......which is the very best salmon water. During the summer, if we don’t get an occasional week of NW wind, the water fluctuates from clear, to green, to murky green, and other “frog-water” colors that may or may not have any life in it. When the water gets very warm & clear on the surface (like 57 – 59 degrees) the fish don’t usually stick around for long. They might go deep.....deep to the cooler water with more feed. All these things relate to choosing the right lure.


Starting with hoochies. There are hundreds if not thousands of different hoochie patterns. It could drive ya nuts trying to choose:

hoochie web page

But there is a small handful of patterns that match up well to most conditions. It doesn’t do much good to say “these are great hoochies”, without understanding when you use one vs the other.

When the "brown water" (from upwelling, plankton blooms, and krill) shows up, & the water temp is between 51 - 54 degrees, the absolute killer is this little guy:
[image][/image] North Pacific p/n C28CR. It is CLEAR with an olive back & a few highlights. It must have the clear belly, not a solid belly!! Best to use with a red hot-spot flasher.

A close second in brown water are the white patterns. However, whites will work in more different conditions & depths than any other pattern. Now, to clarify the whole "purple haze" vs similar..... In this batch:

[image][/image]

Clockwise from top left is (1) Yamashita OAL12R which is a purple haze with rainbow a.k.a. "oil slick" ; (2) Yamashita OA12R purple haze; (3) North Pacific GBOA12R purple haze (4) 15R blue scale back w/white belly; (5) North Pacific AM12R...glow white w/oil slick.

The real purple haze has appears slightly purple and slightly clear when you look at it in the water. Purple haze works best in clear to slightly clear / lightly colored water, also down deep. The AM12R is opaque....and works better when the water has more color / dirtiness to it.

When the upwelling has been over for several days, and the water warms up above 55/56 degrees, and gets real clear, the p/n 15R or similar (i.e. light blue back/white belly) works well.

edit/addendum: 2005 was a strange year for water conditions. The spring upwelling never really happened (although we did see upwelling in the summer). Then in late summer there were miles & miles of this pukey greenish-brown water with plankton & jelly-like slime in it. Well someone discovered that this ugly thing worked well in that stuff:

[image][/image]
OG152R (or OGL152R) The first examples above (i.e. purple haze, glow white, etc) are the "90 % rule" meaning a small set will cover 90% of the situations. Then you get the other 500 hoochie patterns that cover the remaining (odball) 10% of the situations. This OG152R is an example of the oddball situation.






Sometimes a little dressing (twinkle skirt) helps the hoochie. Also note this leader material. Whether it's for hoochies, or spoons, or bait, you want stiff leader material, not limp stuff. This Mason is great for light (20 - 30 lb) sport leaders:
[image][/image]


Rigging your hoochie....

When you rig a hoochie behind a flasher (which you nearly always do) it needs something to fill the head. The best thing to use is a "gum pucky" which is a silicone rubber bullet with a hole in it. Yes some folks use plastic bead or plastic ones, but most highliner commercial fisherman will only use gum puckies. The best hook is a curved point, either durnickel (best) or stainless.
[image][/image]

Size 7/0 is a typical commercial size or for "heavy" sport gear; 5/0 would be for "light" sport gear. The gum pucky fits in the hoochie real snug, and the knot can be shoved up snug into the hole. BE SURE TO USE A CURVED POINT HOOK! I can not stress this enough. Don't ask me what are the physics because I don't know; I just know that curved point gets buried well and rarely come unbuttoned.

Hoochies work best behind a Hot-Spot flasher, or an Abe & Al flasher. This type will "fling" the hoochie around. The oval-shaped "herring dodger" has more of a wobble to it. I have used a hoochie behind a very small dodger on a crowded party boat, but a Hot Spot is preferred. If you are concerned about drag (resistance) the small Hot Spots are very slick (upper left her):
[image][/image]

The leader to the hoochie / lure is attached to the wider end of the Hot Spot. Lower left is an Abe & Al. These also work well with bait. Cool thing about an Abe & Al is you can tune / de-tune it by flattening out the curve on one or both ends (secret commercial trick #79 revealed :grin. Les Davis Herring Dodgers on the right....preferred for bait. I tend to use the larger Hot Spots & dodgers when going real deep (100 - 300 ft); smaller ones when going shallow.

The Les Davis 0/0 size (6 inches long) is a real nice all-around size. Not too much resistance when the fish is near the surface.

The large Hot Spot and the Abe & Al have a lot of action, so you can put a pretty long leader on them (from the wire or sinker); 15 feet is standard commercial rig or even longer in certain situations. The lure end is 20 to 36 inches with a hoochie. You can get away with a pretty heavy leader with hoochies ( 60 lb). Plus you don't want your ten dollar flasher hanging by a 20 lb leader. Put a snap on each hoochie leader so you can change them easily from the flasher. The smaller the flasher, the shorter the lure leader you can get away with (like 6 ft to the wire, and 20 inches to the lure).


How are we doing ??

OK, on to spoons! There are a gazillion out there. Again, you want to match the conditions so there are two basic categories.

The metallic, "reflective" category (chrome/brass/copper) and the "painted" category.

When the water is very clear, (early in the year / spring or for short spurts in the summer when the upwelling has ceased) these metallic spoons work well.
[image][/image]

Tom Mack, McMahon are standard names for the brass & copper, and the large chrome. The small chrome is an "Andy Reeker." Different from a hoochie these thin metal spoons should have a lightweight hook so as not to hinder the action. The tinned hooks ("partridge" style) are normally used on the Tom Macks. The brass & copper will dull quickly between trips. The commercial gear stores sell "hydratone", a chemical used to maintain these spoons. In between uses, the spoons are kept in a closed container of hydratone & fresh water. The Andy Reeker is a real killer. Good luck finding any though; aren't made any more. If you do find one in the package, remove the piece of junk hook that comes with it, and put a 3/0 or 4/0 on the size 4, and a 4/0 or 5/0 on the size 5. When using these metallic spoons in clear water, use a clear, light leader (20 to 30 lb), and either tie the leader directly to the spoon swivel or use a very small snap.

When the water starts to get some color to it, the painted spoons will start to work:

[image][/image]

The two at top right are "Kingfishers". The green/chartreuse, or a green/white (not shown) work well in green water often found close in on the beach, esp. later in the season. The three at top left are Canadian Wonder - style wobblers. The pink & white is a bloody killer in brown water, when the fish are feeding on krill. The other wobblers and the red teardrop with black spots all work well in medium-dark water. And I had to throw in the flame-red teardrop at lower right: that one is a killer for those pesky coho. Just try one of those with a 6/7 ft leader tied directly to it with a light weight or a diver when the coho are biting, and see how it does compared with the other methods. With the painted spoons, you can use the heavier wire hooks.

Obviously there are many more spoons out there. Krocodiles & Apex's are also real popular. The commercial gear stores have hundreds of other shapes & sizes, but they pretty much fall into either the metal / chrome, or the painted. So just keep a few of each and you'll be covered for clear or murky water. BTW you can run a spoon behind a flasher or dodger.

How we doing? :lurk:

Plugs! No conversation about chinook would be complete without mentioning plugs. Several i-fishers (TomicTime, JCarufo), have posted some pretty good info so I won't repeat it. Here is a link to the excellent post by Tomictime on how to rig a plug: Tomictime Post

Some commercial guys fish plugs almost exclusively. Plugs are a bit finicky, especially the larger ones. I tie the leader directly to the ring eye, or pull out the bar completely and thread the line through (see TomicTime post on how to do this). On the 6 inch plug, best hook is a 7/0 to 9/0 durnickel or "hayhook" style. Unlike stainless, durnickel can be bent. We bend the plug hook open so it has a shorter shank and a wider opening. When commercial fishing or sportfishing with a downrigger, big plugs fish well with a very long leader, like 20 - 30 feet. Late in the year, plugs are fished behind large flashers. As with hoochies, there are many patterns. A standard is one that simulates sardines (right side in picture). The pearl colors are also generally good (hmmm...so are white hoochies, remember?) The white & greens work well in green water, close to the beach.

[image][/image]

Look at the Tomic web site for the menu: http://www.tomiclures.com/color_chart.htm


Almost every year a different pattern will be "hot". However, just like with hoochies, a few basic patterns will do you fine. The pearl / whites, the pearl with a pink stripe, and a sardine (dark back) pattern. Funny thing is that....most commercial guys all have a favorite that has most / all of the paint completely gone...and it keeps catching fish. This tells you that the action may be more important than the color.

A great thing about plugs: When coho are out of season, or if you are just trying to avoid pesky little coho so you can hook big kings…..with the large 6 or 7 inch plugs, you will greatly reduce the number of coho hooked. And when you do hook coho on them, they are usually the large models.

Some questions that came up before:

- gum puckies at most commercial gear stores;
- commercial style is one big single hook only;
- yes I love to use bait (whole herring & anchovey; no cut plug); that's a whole 'nuther chapter.
- You bet commercial guys use bait. It's just that bait (1) costs a lot; (2) is more time consuming; (3) has to be kept frozen for days at a time when trip fishing, which is an added hassle; (4) is a hassle & expensive when you get into junk fish like whiting & dogfish. In certain conditions, esp. when it's a wide open bite, lures work just as well. Other times though bait will outfish anything. I used to bait up 200 - 300 hooks before a trip.


That's all for now, folks.

Good fishing.....Kumbaya....Mark Mc

[Onokai]

I have a box of Tomic lure's from the raffel-Now I know what to do with them. And i thought hoochie meant something else. Mark

[Spoiled Daddy]

Thanks Mark Mc!

I have some of everything you have listed, but now I better understand when/how to fish them.

Thanks for sharing!

the Spoiled Daddy

[Bendman]

Good stuff Mark!

[SnowDog]

Thanks Mark! This is awesome stuff!

[Pilar]

Nice, that one got saved.

[Nordic Sun]

Thank you

It is very interesting how some of the very old stuff, still works. In the 50's there were similar shapes and colors that were more productive. I remember fishing with Grandpa and asking him why this one caught more fish than that one. "I don't know" he replied " It just does!"
Bob

[CollyM]

Thanks Mark - An excellent tutorial. I also will be saving it. Got me charged up to go fishing!

[8knots]

Thanks, Master. This is very helpful. Makes me feel like a real novice so the stepped-out instruction is appreciated.

[Arima17Ryan]

Sweet post!

[Reef Diver]

Great Info !
Thanks for the post!
RD

[Critr Gitr]

Obi Wan would be proud ....

[Vulpinus]

Cool stuff Mark.

Might I add that I think this is one of the best chinook lures out there. I like to put them about 24 inches behind a chrome dodger.

Point Defiance spoons. I always have these out.

[Mark Mc]

Ooooo....a Pt Defiance.....yes that is a dandy little bugger. OK secret #79 revealed.....Cut the tail off an anchovy or small herring....very small piece like 3/4 - 1 inch long....and put it on the hook of your Pt Defiance. If you keep it small it will not mess up the action. BTW Matt any thoughts on our last exchange? PM me.....

[jacksalmon]

Thanks, Mark. Great stuff! I have printed and included it in my Tips from MarkMc notebook. I don't leave home without it.

[ron m]

Mark, your post is especially helpful to folks like me that have very little experience fishing for salmon. Thanks.
ron m

[Triple C]

Great post Mark. Thanks alot

[Smily]

Great tips for all of us to catch more fish. Thank You

[Captn]

I need to chime in here and say not only great post, that will save some of us time and money, but this kind of stuff is what salty dogs and Ifish are all about. YOOO HOOO

[CATCH AND EAT]

I need to chime in here and say not only great post, that will save some of us time and money, but this kind of stuff is what salty dogs and Ifish are all about. YOOO HOOO

THOUGHT THE QUOTE ABOVE WAS WORTH READING TO THE GANG AGAIN. YES I'M SHOUTING! :grin:

Mark, great post and thanks from the bottom of my wallet. Your time to post this is appreciated.

[D-tangle]

I especially appreciate the color of the water suggestions. Thanks Mark.

[id. painter]

So ,, What are the season dates off Newport /Depoe?

Thanks for the all teh above info MMc.
id.p.

[Cloud-Nine]

This needs to be in the permanent Salty Dog tips.
Great post Great poster.
Dick

[Phil Layer]

Mark,

You rock monkey! Thanks much.

[Mark Mc]

Thanks you guys; you're too kind.

Uh....rock monkey? Do I even want to know :whazzup: ?

Although I really do feel for our commercial bretheren, this could be a really, really good year for sport salmon.

[Phil Layer]

Uh....rock monkey? Do I even want to know :whazzup: ?

I don't know what it means either but my daughter says it when she's happy.

[Vulpinus]

We (I) have put in lots of thought about that last exchange Mark. Sure is tempting while at the same time hard to give up a good thing too. Maybe Ill get fired and the decision will be easy?

Anyways thanks for all your help. Very appreciated. Hope to come fish the tuna tourny!

Kick butt thread too... gonna have to pick up a blue/white hoochie for the clear water stuff (water is very clear down here).

[tomictime]

Mark:

Secret #79...oh man...my book only goes to 20 or so..and that includes lying about stuff...Thanks for pointing to my post. I do love those plugs..even bought two new ones in BC a few weeks ago. As to saving us money..ha..now I need to stock up on the various hazes in purple haze...well, maybe NOT!

Here are a few things I might add:

When fishing plugs, I use a fairly long 8-10' flourocarbon leader, esp w the BIG tomics, they wag so much the fish has a good view fwd.

when fishing flashers, I use hotspots because they fish well at Tomic speed ranges - I fish 3 riggers, often w Tomic down the center. I run longer leaders 36-42" leaders on Hootchies....and Secret #19 and not a lie, I use Triple Fish 40-50# leaders on Hootchies..TF is is Perlon = prestretched Nylon..secret #19a, per your comments, Nylon is STIFF..so even w 42" leader lure MOVES..secret #19b..prestreteched Nylon does not stretch much..catch a BIG king on a normal leader and your 42" leader gets streteched...instant no fish...SPEED and leader length and stiffness are three related variables..

Finally, I have had great success with Coho killers for Kings..the more bent the tail gets from big fish, the more erratic they get AND they are small - luke much of the brown water bait/feed..

Red flashers? Everybody knows they turn black..blah, blah..BUT the fish know....

Mark, your post has me excited and pumped to start the season and is a great service, PM headed your way, fishing trip up here on me :smile)

Note: You may be forced to reveal secrets no 80-100 while on board....

Jim

[tomictime]

secret #1..gear in water = fish in box..looking for stuff to tie up = less gear in water and off your game...pre-tie the hot stuff....more WMD revealed....



Hootchies, baitbusters, spoons, flies, chovie heads...all ready to go....

JD

[Mark Mc]

I had to do a double-take on that photo. OK it is spread out on the floor. But to me it is "functional art"...and that collection would make a very nice wall hanging!

Jim have you heard of a "Nootka" flasher? Same shape as a Hot Spot but wider, and made of thick metal, mostly chrome but some painted spots. Wish I could get my hands on one.....have any ??

[Something Good]

Cool gear bags. Where can I get some?

Have trouble with my hot spots rusting around the holes. Is this normal?

Thanks,
Liar

[5 Salt]

Seattle Marine has the Nootka Flasher


"The Nootka Flasher is Back!

We stock it in the original flat chrome, with two ball bearing swivels. 11-1/2" x 4".

Stock #LUH5131003013Luhr seamar.com

[Mark Mc]

Thanks Calvin!

BTW I have received a number of very pleasant e-mails. Several folks are asking about sources.

As we all know we shouldn't be providing links to non-sponsor websites that compete with sponsors. So I'll name a few names but you will have to Google them.

It turns out that the best variety of (ocean) salmon gear is at a commercial gear store. And most of these stores have not kept up with website shopping that we expect from most consumer-oriented companies. A few suggestions, in addition to Englund:

Seattle Marine - they do have a web catalog but it is difficult to navigate.

Nikka Industries (Richmond, British Columbia, just south of Vancouver)

Pacific Net and Twine, across the street from Nikka.

These three have hoochies, flashers, plugs, and spoons galore.

Hi's Tackle Box in San Francisco (very good sport gear store). Hi's has the good Mason leader material.

Regarding Englund, the folks at their Newport store are very friendly to sport guys. So they can help you over the phone, with a stash of spoons & such.

BTW, if you & the family are taking a road trip to Vancouver, you must "negotiate" a visit to Nikka & Pacific Twine. It is actually a really nice little area...Steveston, on the water. There are lots of cool shops, ice cream parlors, seafood restaurants. The spouse & kids will have fun browsing around while you go to the gear store.

[blackdog]

Mark,

Unbelievably helpful! Thanks a bunch.

You've provided critical info on how to catch fish. The key to this, though, is fishing where there are fish. Any 'inside' info on how to find chinook out on the open ocean? Certain depths at certain times, basic structure, etc. Anything would be helpful.

Thanks again.

[Mark Mc]

Well Blackdog, there is no short answer to that. And a lot of it is stuff that can't be put into words....like "fish sense."

A couple real key things that can be stated: Except for the late season when salmon are coming close to their river of origin, they are out there what.....searching for food. So it's all about the feed, and therefore finding the water most likely to hold the feed.

As stated earlier, the best conditions are associated with upwelling > plankton blooms > other critters (baitfish, krill) feeding on plankton. The water we like for tuna....clear blue, 60+ degrees, is horrible for salmon.

Now that we have certain internet tools, we can get a good idea of where (or where not) to chase salmon. Ideally you want 52 - 54 degree surface water. So you can use the Terrafin and Coastwatch websites to find those temperature bands. In addition, with a Terrafin subscription, you can now see the water color (actually it is chlorophyll density). This is a very powerful tool. The higher chlorophyll densities are best for salmon. So now you can line up both the ideal temperature, with the highest chlorophyll.

Now once you are on the water, there are some visual things to look for (in addition to the psychic fish sense).

- water temp meter.....as you get further out, the temp typically climbs. Has it hit 52 yet? Or has it climbed from 55 to 58 and is now getting too warm?

- rip lines / sharp color changes on the surface
- bait balls on your fish finder
- the "good" birds such as murres on the surface. Are the murres going down for a dive, and back up, often? Are they making lots of noise (babies want the food, now!!)? When they fly, are they getting airborne (hungry) or are their bellies flopping on the water (because they are so full of food)?

Another good sign is when you see one or more boats with their nets flying...brailing salmon over the side (OK that was obvious).

Hope that helps!

[Orca]

Thanks Mark,

This is my main problem as well - Am I putting the gear out in a fishy area? Guess I haven't been doing this long enough to get that 7th sense yet.

[tomictime]

Mark: Calvin "beat" me to it, Pacific has the Nootka in stock...about $9 US...$11ish CAN (funny money)...don't order one tho..PM me your address so I can send you one...BUT in return...STOP giving away the FARM.....Not all the WMD was revealed....Secret #11a and 11b....Metal flashers have a special place on my boat...IF things are REALLY slow and I have a guest on board who "needs a fish"..I will sometimes drag out a green/glo F-4 Piscator (Silver Horde, Lynnwood WA)...failing that (rare)..I will drag out the classic Nootka...which doubles as a canoe paddle, hull patch and trailer fender.."WoW...are these things made out of diamond plate"???..the averages guest's reaction...They do however catch fish...

[tomictime]

[quote]
I had to do a double-take on that photo. OK it is spread out on the floor. But to me it is "functional art"...and that collection would make a very nice wall hanging!

Deadly Art....does look cool....

[tomictime]

Cool gear bags. Where can I get some?

Most tackle shops carry the Q Cove China model, these are sadly no longer made by X-Stream

Have trouble with my hot spots rusting around the holes. Is this normal?

Flashers get washed in joy w smelly jelly scrubbed off, dryed and put to bed w shot of WD40 on the Sampo's and rings..they still get a bit green..never had a Hotspot w Sampo fail..a few in the Pile are the Oki commercial models.

Secret #3..draw a lateral line on flasher w anchovie or herring smelly jelly...avoid getting it on your donut or sandwich...

Thanks,
Liar

[blackdog]

You guys are awesome!

I commercial fished for years growing up with my Grandpa in his dory out of Cape Kiwanda so a lot of this is looking and sounding real familiar. Unfortunately, during teenage years we tend to not pay attention as well as we probably should.

Thanks again

[Rodbender]

Great Stuff!
One small correction-Pacific Net & Twine is on the same side of the street as Nikka just a block further east.
The place across the street from Nikka holds little of interest to serious fishermen.

[OuterLimits]

Thanks Mark, that is a great Tutorial! That brings Advanced Chinook Technics 501 to an all new level.

Here is one that is famous off Vancouver Island...no joke!! When the going gets tough, they pull out the Tofino Special!!! A lot of guides use this lure off the WCVI. This is a real Canadian lure...hope the mods approve!!

[blueback17]

Wow! I thought I had a pretty good idea of how to fish in different water conditions, but this post took it to a whole new level. That is a bunch of great information...thanks for the tips/tutorial. I know that post will help put more fish in my boat. I appreciate your willingness to share such detailed information.

Thanks.

[Mark Mc]

Hey Outerlimits....any idea what water color/condition that "Tofino Special" works best in? Or what kind of feed?
Pretty wild stuff!

[CURADO KID]

I'll bet thats a killer on the Willamette River!

[northriver1]

Thank you Dr. Mark .

[OuterLimits]

Mark Mc, no information on water temp for the Tofino Special, but I will find out over the July 4th weekend. Tomictime will also be up there...maybe I will just have to lower the Tofino Special and see what comes up!!

[Salty Walty]

Mark, I bet there are a few out there that would like to know if there are certain speeds that you should fish the hardware at or what they are best fished at. Could you find it within yourself to divulge some more of your encyclopaedic knowledge?

[Bendman]

Mark, I bet there are a few out there that would like to know if there are certain speeds that you should fish the hardware at or what they are best fished at. Could you find it within yourself to divulge some more of your encyclopaedic knowledge?

Now that's giving away the farm Walter. :grin: I was wondering when that was going to be discussed.

[Hoghunter]

Mark, TT, Outerlimits, all good info. It sure does get the juices flowing. It's always nice to read stuff from other people as it never hurts to add additional from another person's experience to enhance your own.

Mark I have fished the size squid that Outerlimits shows above many times off WCVI. I have always done best with that particular size when either pilchards or squid of similar size are around. Last summer both were present in the area and we banged fish on these large squid in glow green and white and also on large Tomics. I bought one of the Turds and tried it last summer but never had any success. I have the feeling it might work best offshore. We were fishing in fairly clear water close to shore when the other colors worked best for us. I too plan to try this color on my early BC trip when I'm fishing exclusively offshore. I have found these large squid in BC as well as SeaMar in Seattle. I hear you about the online store being difficult to navigate. It's a fun store to shop though. One of those where the pocket book always feels lighter when you leave.

Salty Walty, I fish with downriggers and use any of the following: flasher/squid, flasher/bait, flasher/spoon, plain bait, plain spoon and plugs. With all of these I'm moving at a good clip. I'm usually running between 2 and 3 knots and sometimes faster. What I look for is the angle on the downrigger cable. I try to keep it as close to 30 degrees as possible. The only time I troll slower is if I'm using cut plug herring which is very rare.

[tomictime]

HH has it right, sweet spot with cable angle and specific gear is EVERYTHING..like I say. it's a system of leader stiffness, leader length, flasher type, speed and those lovely Tomic plugs. 2-3 is happy speed.

[Mark Mc]

Trolling speed.....Well my short answer would be...that there is no one answer...."it depends" on so many things. A few key tidbits....

When fishing straight spoons....esp. the chrome ones in the spring, they work best at a faster speed....to get the good "flutter."

If the fish are feeding on krill in the spring, early summer(up high), the fish behave in a peculiar way...and prefer a fast trolled lure or bait. They'll hit a slow bait in this case but generally will bite "short."

With a hot spot flasher & hoochie, it gets better action with a medium to fast speed.

But with a dodger and a bait, esp. a large whole herring, they fish better at a slow speed.

A straight bait (no flasher / dodger) can be fished fast or slow.....so with a crowbar hook I'll use a hook with more bend when slow trolling, or a shallow bend for fast.

If the fish are real deep, then a slow speed helps you get down there.

If it is late season, and there are big spawner kings around, they tend to take a slow bait better than fast. We call that "hog troll."

[tailchaser]

I really only have one thing to add to the discussion on salmon and basically I saw one thing missing. A triangle flasher, aka Dee's diamond flasher. I haven't used a dodger in 5 years and probably won't ever again. For a couple pretty simple reasons. For one, has anyone seen the old videos done back in the late 80's about salmon fishing in BC???? I remember going to a sportsman show and seeing it. The dodger does large loops around jerking the bait all over the place. Not real conducive for cut plugs or a bait presentation that require a specific roll. The salmon missed the bait consistently enough that some lost interest while it was doing loops through the water.

Anyhow, with the triangle flasher, my bait is in a consistent path with just as much flashing, if not more with the the triangle flasher and allows my bait to flop as I want it to. It also gives a better target to fish to hit more frequently. We're going to do a lot of video this year, so I'll have some examples of this in action from both sides of the coin.

Secondly, I troll strictly with downriggers so the large flopping action of the dodgers isn't what I want. Some of the larger ones have a circle motion up to 15' at times. I stack my downriggers, so having my baits in a straight line at the depth I drop them is critical. I don't know if I'll ever use a dodger again, they still work but too much hardware on my line and issues for me to get used anymore.

tc

[5 Salt]

Thanks Mark, that is a great Tutorial! That brings Advanced Chinook Technics 501 to an all new level.

Here is one that is famous off Vancouver Island...no joke!! When the going gets tough, they pull out the Tofino Special!!! A lot of guides use this lure off the WCVI. This is a real Canadian lure...hope the mods approve!!

Angelos makes some mighty nice hoochies but I never been able to find them online - only in canadian retail stores. Any one, berry's bait tackle carries Radiant, Pac Net and Twine carries two other brands.

Thanks.

[5 Salt]

Mark,

Care to discuss flasher bending and some desired results from changing nootka, abe-n-als, etc from stock bend?

Thanks - Calvin

[Mark Mc]

Well TC, I must have a way of attracting the salmon that don't miss the bait .

The Les Davis Herring Dodgers have been enormously successful for me, for close to 30 years. I don't know about this movie you mention....but it probably makes a huge difference how it is rigged, what size, how bait is rigged, & how fast.

The most killer rig for me is the small size(s)...meaning the 000 or the 00. Those are the two smallest sizes. And the bait is always a whole herring or anchovy, none of this cut plug stuff. If you put a whole bait behind one of these small dodgers, they do not go "all over the place".....they wobble gently. And I know of several thousand chinook that had no problem getting the bait in their mouths.

Now, when you go to the larger sizes....the shorter the front side of the leader is, the more erratic it will be. On a commercial rig the front side of the leader will be at least 15 feet long.

My advice would be.....try the different combinations, but look at it in the water...and re-adjust sizes, leader lengths, and bait size....you will find the combination that looks good.

[Something Good]

Well Blackdog, there is no short answer to that. And a lot of it is stuff that can't be put into words....like "fish sense."

A couple real key things that can be stated: Except for the late season when salmon are coming close to their river of origin, they are out there what.....searching for food. So it's all about the feed, and therefore finding the water most likely to hold the feed.

As stated earlier, the best conditions are associated with upwelling > plankton blooms > other critters (baitfish, krill) feeding on plankton. The water we like for tuna....clear blue, 60+ degrees, is horrible for salmon.

Now that we have certain internet tools, we can get a good idea of where (or where not) to chase salmon. Ideally you want 52 - 54 degree surface water. So you can use the Terrafin and Coastwatch websites to find those temperature bands. In addition, with a Terrafin subscription, you can now see the water color (actually it is chlorophyll density). This is a very powerful tool. The higher chlorophyll densities are best for salmon. So now you can line up both the ideal temperature, with the highest chlorophyll.

Now once you are on the water, there are some visual things to look for (in addition to the psychic fish sense).

- water temp meter.....as you get further out, the temp typically climbs. Has it hit 52 yet? Or has it climbed from 55 to 58 and is now getting too warm?

- rip lines / sharp color changes on the surface
- bait balls on your fish finder
- the "good" birds such as murres on the surface. Are the murres going down for a dive, and back up, often? Are they making lots of noise (babies want the food, now!!)? When they fly, are they getting airborne (hungry) or are their bellies flopping on the water (because they are so full of food)?

Another good sign is when you see one or more boats with their nets flying...brailing salmon over the side (OK that was obvious).

Hope that helps!

You're giving away too much information! You're too kind. I spent years fishing and not catching before I figured out all of these clues. Now everyone who reads this will know what I spent years learning.

[Double G]

Dr. Mark Mc thanks for sharing your gift of knowledge with us. I had begun to slip into a rut and your tips have given me a reason to analyze my lure presentations. I especially appreciated your comments regarding water color as it relates to lure selection.

[Mark Mc]

Bump, for Cap'n Al

(note the reference to plugs, and a post by Tomic Time)

[Paddler]

Hey Mark, have you noticed a particular Hot Spot making a difference? I have had a couple of days when the mini in white/crushed pearl (#302) produced strikes from chinook more than anything else. My experience is limited, but base on this trend, I ordered a dozen of the things. Not a popular color according to Hot Spot, the glows outsell them by more than 10:1.

Both our chinook strikes this year come on this flasher, and one afternoon out in front of the harbor at LP, we hooked four, all on this color. The other rod didn't get bit. Any thoughts. Anybody else fish this color?

I also have had great luck with the Coyote spoons in silver/blue. What do others think?