Washinton Elk (Channel 2 story) action called for

[Spotted Owl]

Here is some action happening about the story that we saw on channel 2.

I'm sure that there is more to come. This seems to have come awfully fast. Perhaps something is going to come of this now that the story has reached the public.

http://159.54.227.3/apps/pbcs.dll/ar.../60408009/1006

Owl

[gottafish]

Great youth hunt opp.

[Moldy Mike]

At what point are the bureaucrats held to the same standards as the general public? They arrest folks down here in Oregon if their horses look like those elk! I can understand normal winterkill but this looks like careless management! Mike Horner

[Rank Amateur]

Exactly!

If the managers at Jewell Wildlife Meadows decided that they just would not feed the elk this year, one, they would be without a job and two my name would be on the complaint filed against them for cruelty of animals.

[nobrownline]

WDFW just announced that they are adding 30 special permits for the MT. St. Helens area for next year!

[HntnFsh]

Too little Too late.

30 tags aint enough.

[stilly bum]

Koenings said, “this is the first call for me to be fired that I’ve ever had.”


Ummm...that's not true.

[bearmanric]

Stilly bum you should of seen Komo news they had pictures. big bull elk kicking around suffering and the calf elk mewing. made me sick. cant believe the Rocky mountain elk foundation wont help. all that money they get from us. it's a bad thing. it's getting attention now. Rick

[Broknt]

the rocky mountain elk foundation has donated a little money to help andare looking to get into it some more. just found that out last night.


thad

[Opportunist]

That herd has been mismanaged since the red zone opened backup after the 1980 eruption. Locking up that much land to permit only has put more stress on surrounding units. The toutle should be opened up to general season and more permits given in the margaret and loowit. Hunters are the cheapest tool this game dept. has to reach winter range carrying capacities. It's the commisioners fault they are the one's that dictate to Kroenig. It's the commissioners that ney or yeah department policy, rule adoption, even tag numbers. Let the game departments manage their resources based on scientific data and sound management tools instead of public sentiment and political posturing. Just a dream!

[bearmanric]

that's good. i just thought they would jump on it.by the time they do the politcle stuff it is alway's to late.at the rate thing's are going we wont be able to hunt soon. there talking about closing the olympic pennesula to elk hunting. permit only. it's bad up there cougar's and bear's get alot of calf's. indian's take alot. bad deal. Rick

[gottafish]

To me this is a simple problem just like the problem elk at the coast. Round them up and send them to areas that need a population boost. Its not that spendy they do it with cows all the time. then everyone is happy.

Bearmanric, The Olympic pennesula. makes me sick. We had the unfortunate experiance of stumbeling into a indian slaughter site where they killed over 60 animals. sawed the heads off the bulls and took the calfs. this happen about 15 years ago out side forks and the F&G said they could do nothing about it. I moved after that. but the indians want the whole thing shut down to the white man and only open to them unless you get a indian guide kind of thing.

[Moldy Mike]

Back to the top.

[HntnFsh]

I'm dead set against the roundups.Have you seen the mortality rates from that.They are pretty high in my opinion.

Toutle and Margaret both should be open for general season.They are huge areas that are vastly under utilized.

Maybe all the attention will light a fire under somebodies hind end.

There was a lot more snow this winter.I think it helped push a lot of elk into that area that normally arent there.Just compounded the problem.

[ScottD]

The other problem with those areas is that usually in September and October the whole area is shut down due to fire danger. My brother drew an archer elk permit about 5 years ago in the Toutle or Margaret (I can't remember which one) and he wasn't able to hunt because the Timber Companies had everything shut down.

[HntnFsh]

That has been a big problem the last few years.

I have read that WDFW is planning on or already has addressed that issue by modifying the seasons.

[Broknt]

see the problem is they did the habitat recontsruction the spring and summer of 2000. we havent had a winter to see whether it would work or not until this year. i guess they got there answer on whether it works. my bid issue is that when the elk started to get get skinny there should have been hay being fed to them so that they wouldnt starve. i know mark would have volunteered his time to make sure they got the hay. but one thing about adding 30 tags is good luck filling those tags those elk will get out of there and not come back until the preasure is off. i watched it last year. i know exactly how they exit there and right where they go. they cross the toutle river. and when that happens good luck getting them cause you cant cross that river there. but hey we will see im sure i will be back up there with my dad or my uncle this year on the disabled hunt.


thad

[duckboy]

I bet you that instead of letting the hunters manage it, they are going to set Wolves loose up there (Blast area of st helens) to "return it to its natural state"

I hope it doesn't happen, but wouldn't suprise me if it did.

[gottafish]

I bet you that instead of letting the hunters manage it, they are going to set Wolves loose up there (Blast area of st helens) to "return it to its natural state"

I hope it doesn't happen, but wouldn't suprise me if it did.

You will see a push.

[Opportunist]

They'll probably trap 'em lose 30% to stress, ship 'em up north so the Nooksack tribe can shoot them! Guess what? WDFW will pay for it ooh I mean WE'LL pay for it! This was their answer a couple of years ago.

Give out more youth, senior and disabled permits!

Heck,auction off a couple of margaret/loowit trophy bull permits and use that money directly for habitat enhancement. But they won't, the money will be spent at the Oak creek wildlife area. Hard to stay positive on this issue!

[Rank Amateur]

You underestimate elk hunters. The elk are in the area for a reason and their bellies will lead them back. I talked to some co-workers who know the area, they said taking an animal up there would not be a problem.

What's the estimate of the population up there, must be quite a few animals? Being that these animals are nutritionally stressed the recruitment rate is probably lower but will flucuate now because of the reduction in population. But just a lowball estimate would be 25 calves per 100 cows. Good recruitment would be around 40 calves per 100 cows. One would suspect that the old cows probably bit the dust, so the herd will not be have normal age related losses for a few years, so anyways harvesting 10 cows per 100 cows would be wise for a few years. Probably need to take some bulls too, they are born in equal proportions. The older bulls probably really took it in the shorts, bulls tend to be in poorer shape in an event like this. Probably should be taking 8 bulls per 100 cows out of there also. Next year if they have good recruitment, they would need to bump up the harvest, trapping, ect.

Either harvest them or feed them, not really any other way of doing it.

[Quaka Wacka]

I was told the 30 cow tags they added aren't even for the Loowit, they are for the Margret and Toutle units. And I'd have to agree with Rank. I've hunted the Toutle and Margret and normally hunt the Marble unit. If they gave out 100 tags, I bet you they'd fill 90% or better. Elk are creatures of habbit and they will follow thier stomachs back after dark. They may be in the trees the next day, but they won't go far.

[AnyFishAnyTime]

I just saw the video that you all have been referring to and I have a simple question that perhaps some of you hunters can answer. The video inferred that the starving Elk were in a relatively small area (the hunting reserve) and that the habitat was decimated. Why didn’t the elk move to an area that had more feed? It seems that you don’t have to go very far anywhere in western Oregon and Washington to find lots of forage. Were these animals confined somehow to prevent them from migrating? Are we sure it was starvation or could it be disease? Disease makes more sense to me but I am just a dumb fisherman. :whazzup:

Thanks guys

[Freighter Bait]

If you read the Fish and Game weekly bulletin, it has numerous earlier postings (at least back to early December) referring to low fat levels in tested animals in the St. Helens area. These were from elk caught for study samples. Winter mortality counts are posted too. Isn't this an indicator of a potential problem (disaster) developing? Wyoming has had elk feeding programs for decades, and large populations of elk, and draw odds that I haven't made in 3 straight years (Gen). Is it budget that keeps WDFW from trying a feeding program? Its sad and disappointing to see resources suffer and go to waste in this manner. Makes me wonder if my license $$ are being used appropriately and effectively? Maybe use the media to draw attention for assistance to divert disaster(protect my investment)

[Quaka Wacka]

I just saw the video that you all have been referring to and I have a simple question that perhaps some of you hunters can answer. The video inferred that the starving Elk were in a relatively small area (the hunting reserve) and that the habitat was decimated. Why didn’t the elk move to an area that had more feed? It seems that you don’t have to go very far anywhere in western Oregon and Washington to find lots of forage. Were these animals confined somehow to prevent them from migrating? Are we sure it was starvation or could it be disease? Disease makes more sense to me but I am just a dumb fisherman. :whazzup:

Thanks guys

The elk are in a river valley, and there is deep snow on the hillsides around. Development is pushing up from the bottom of the valley. Even if they had the strength and energy reserves for a long migration, I don't know if they have a lot of options of places to go. Its just a matter of too many elk for the amount of winter range along the toutle river. Although disease could be a comorbid factor as well. There is some talk of boutulism(sp?) on another forum, but they're still waiting for test results.

[SummerRun Slayer]

AnyFishAnyTime

The elk in the video that are on the mudflow (Loowit Refuge ) aren't the only ones dying. On a different topic on this form i mentioned that while the KATU vido was being filmed i came across a bull calf that was in the same situation, only i was above spirit lake highway back in the Margret Unit. A week prior to them filming the video i was back along a different drainage where elk also winter and ran into six dead elk in less than a quarter mile stretch....and two days after they filmed the video i was over in the Toutle Unit and came across two dead elk and one cow that was still alive and in the same situation as the bull calf that i had found. This leads me to believe that it isn't just concentrated in the refuge area. The Toutle Unit and the Margret Units both border the LooWit where the major die off occured and tags are only given by draw permit. I really belive that it is as big a deal as Mark Smith is trying to communicate to the public, something needs to be done, WDFW has known about this problem and they've failed to remedy it....sounds like time for a change!

Joe

[Fish Slapper]

This absolutely disgust me, I have sent e-mails to WDFW, the "director", Wa Govenor, my Reps, RMEF, the local news stations, does anyone have any other ideas on who I should contact?

[Rank Amateur]

One would want to use some caution. On a scale of 1-10 (1 being a good winter) it would be my opinion that this winter was around a 6.5 for elk this year. In any herd there are going to be some older animals that are going to drop, regardless and severe conditions guarantee it. Winter is a big killer for calves, even in good winters.

What they showed on the Loowit though was definately too many elk, with too little habitat. I don't know the figures for you guys in Washington so that interpretation is going to be up for you. The higher elevation elk this year are going to take a beating because of the higher amounts of time that ground forage was covered by snow.

We have to understand in game management on a unit wide basis does not always equate to an even presence of elk that are in balance with habitat. We could have a highly managed herd, yet still have pockets of elk that die from starvation due to conditions that are variable and inconsistent with the rest of the unit. One landowner locking gates and keeping antlerless harvest down could cause a situation like this.

The Loowit is a wholesale die off (unless they doctored the story), a few scattered pockets of die off while not nice to see, is a reality in wildlife management during hard winters.

Hopefully the bio's will be told where the winter kills are occurring and they can adopt a strategy to help minimize this loss.

If you are seeing wholesale winter kill, then the units were probably carrying too many animals.

[Quaka Wacka]

I hope most guys realize that. Witer kill is inevidable. Some years will be worse than others. But a well managed herd shouldn't have a winterkill rate that is two or three times that of the surounding areas. That is unacceptable

And I was dang near crusified on another site for saying this, but I think in areas where the animals are extremely vulnerable and in tougher winters, we should lay off the shed hunting until a little later in the year. For every animal that dies of starvation, there are several that are on the verge and could go either way. Bumping them and pushing them around, all in the name of being the first to pick up some bone, could use up that last bit of energy they don't have to spare. Not saying that shed hunters are causing this, just could be a contributing factor. You may think there aren't guys out there to make a difference, but in that area there are a lot of shed hunters. Even during the week there are guys parked at most of the turnouts in prime areas. It almost looks like its elk season with all the RMEF decals on the back of the trucks. Some states already restrict shed hunting and public access in certain areas for this very reason. I'm also not saying stay out of the woods, just give the elk a little buffer, if the are running when they see you you are too close.

I wonder what kind of comments I'm gonna get with that? :grin:

[Rank Amateur]

A good comment.

I thought the same thing when I watched the video, yes it was the news, but the picture of the herd ambling (stumbling) away meant they were pushed. Hopefully people would understand the difference between animals in trouble and animals in normal condition, but I'm afraid not. I would think in the case of the Loowit, the animals are pretty concentrated and that is never a good thing to have people running around in them during times of stress.

Would have been good for the wildlife department to give an advisory. Unfortunately, it will probably lead to restrictions someday. Somebody always willing to get the jump on somebody else.

[nwsteelheader]

What was the basic reason for not "mananging" the number of these elk down to sustainable levels? Was it to allow the elk to be around so tourists could see them??

I hunt each year over in idaho and the feeding stations they have in some of the big winter grounds make jewel seem like a petting zoo. They bring in dozens of truckloads of alfalfa pellets in the fall and then feed thousands of elk over the winter out of big gravity fed silos.

If Washington wants to restrict hunting then they need to appropriately manage the animals, or terrain, or feed them or something. Winterkill is a fact of life, mass starvation of poorly managed resources is squarely the responsibility of the director of the Washington department of Wildlife. NO EXCUSES!

Shawn

[Fish Slapper]

I just received a response to an e-mail that I sent yesterday to a Regional director with RMEF,. He said that RMEF is presently working on a statement about the elk situation to send to WDFW and he will send me a copy when finished. I hope this thread does not die and we keep pressure on WDFW to do something about this. I am still waiting on a response form WDFW, Govenors office and my local politicians.

Mark Youngblood

[nwsteelheader]

Mark -

Will you be sure to post the letter when you receive it?

Thanks

shawn

[BigFishFever]

I too have emailed the WDFW Director, and I have recieved a response, and have emailed another rebuttal with further questions...we will see the response soon I hope!

-----Original Message-----

From: Jeff Koenings [mailto:koenijpk@DFW.WA.GOV]

Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 10:52 AM

To: Johnson, Michael

Subject: Re: Mt. St. Helens Elk question

Thank you for your recent message concerning the Mount St. Helens elk herd.

We at the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) recognize that many citizens are concerned about elk that have succumbed to harsh winter conditions in the elevations around the Mount St. Helens area.

<font color="blue">Thank you, and yes we are concerned...due to the large amount of time, resources and investments made in this region since the eruption in '80, we really do appreciate the dedication to restoring this herd
</font>

First, I want to assure you that we share your concern for the elk. Like anyone who has seen or heard reports of the Mount St. Helens elk, we feel empathy for the animals and want to alleviate their suffering.

To that end, WDFW wildlife biologists and land managers have been working for nearly a decade to enhance forage for elk around Mount St. Helens. Those efforts include seeding and fertilizing forage plants, removing weeds and controlling erosion. Much of the work has been conducted with partners such as the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation and local volunteers. After trial planting of a 20-acre area in 1998, over 700 acres were seeded from 1999 through 2000. Unfortunately, continued shifts in the Toutle River channel and resulting erosion destroyed a large area of the plantings. Adding to the challenge facing elk in the Mount St. Helens area, the 1980 volcanic eruption dramatically altered soil mineral content, diminishing nutrients available to the elk in forage plants. For the past four years we have worked to stabilize the remaining seeded mudflow area by planting grass and shrubs. We also stepped up removal of competing weeds, such as Scotch broom, from more than 200 acres.

<font color="blue"> Again, Thank you, I can appreciate the challenges, and not knowing how the eruption changed mineral content on this side of the mountains (on the east side EVERYTHING grew better) I will leave that to you. </font>

Besides trying to improve forage for the elk, WDFW has worked in cooperation with Indian tribes to reduce the size of the Mount St. Helens elk herd by relocating 103 animals to the North Cascades. These elk transfers, which took place from 2003 through 2005, were undertaken in part to reduce stress on remaining elk near Mount St. Helens.

In a further move to reduce the size of the Mount St. Helens herd, WDFW re-opened hunting in 2004, for the first time since the volcano's eruption in 1980. Ten special permits were issued for disabled hunters in 2004. Since then, the number of elk permits has been expanded.

<font color="blue"> Curious on this, how many of those 10 disabled permits were successful. Knowing several disabled hunters, I know that they have a more difficult time finding animals near roadways to actively hunt. </font>

The Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission recently approved increasing the number of cow-elk permits in the area immediately adjacent to the mudflow from 80 to 110, and also approved 196 bull-elk permits. The additional elk permits- for hunters using modern firearms and muzzleloading rifles- were approved for two game management units (GMUs). In GMU 524 (Margaret unit), modern firearms permits were increased from 25 to 30 in the Margaret B hunt, and muzzleloader permits were increased from 10 to 15 in the Margaret D hunt. In GMU 556 (Toutle unit), modern firearms permits were increased from 35 to 50 in the Toutle B hunt. Muzzleloader permits were increased from 10 to 15 in the Toutle D hunt. Expanded hunting must be considered in the context of fair-chase concerns in the relatively exposed mudflow area, and consideration for those who wish to enjoy the elk as watchable wildlife.

<font color="blue"> I am all for hunting, and the hunting opportunities available, but correct me if I am wrong, werent many of these hunts available, but access into the units restricted a large amount of time due to fire hazards? As for the consideration of those that enjoy the "watchable wildlife" what kind of image does this protray to the general public, that doesnt think of elk on a daily basis...and then see a broadcast protraying how the elk herds are being decimated due to starvation? From a hunter/outdoorsman standpoint I see this as an isolated event to a specific area, however the nonhunter/outdoorsman sees this as "the poor elk in Washington (not a general area) are dying! We cant allow the hunting of these animals" (I have discussed this with many of my "nonhunting friends" that have seen this and not one of them isolated it to a specific area) </font>

Some people have asked why WDFW doesn't feed elk or other wildlife affected by prolonged or severe winter weather. Although the Department does feed elk in certain settings where animals do not have access to natural winter range, biologists generally discourage winter wildlife feeding because it artificially concentrates animals, spreading disease and interfering with their natural foraging behavior. Attempting to feed winter-weakened elk late in the season generally is unsuccessful because the animals' digestive systems are unable to handle distributed food. Although animal deaths may be upsetting to observe, they are a natural occurrence, especially after a winter that is prolonged or especially harsh. Such winter wildlife mortalities occur throughout the state, but are more obvious to observers in the Mount St. Helens area, where vegetative cover is sparse.

<font color="blue"> Not sure I understand this, Elk Heards in Yakima and surrounding areas are fed every winter at the various feeding stations around Naches. (Oak Creek etc) even in non harsh winters, and I have yet to see an abundance of malnourished elk (granted I have seen a few but nothing of this magnitude...and I do realize that this is a harsh reality of nature)</font>

Two elk-mortality surveys have been conducted in the Mount St. Helens mudflow area this winter-the first, in January, located five winter-killed elk, and the second, in late March, showed an additional 20 mortalities from among an estimated population of 600 elk in the area. Another survey is planned for later this month. Winter mortality of 10 percent is considered normal, and a rate twice that high may be seen after prolonged winter weather such as that of the past several months. Many of those weather-related deaths ironically occur in early spring, when weakened animals succumb just as forage is beginning to green up.

<font color="blue"> Cant argue here as I am not a biologist...death is part of nature, and I realize that</font>

We invite you and other interested citizens to participate in the process of finalizing a management plan for the Mount St. Helens Elk Herd. A revised draft herd plan, including provisions for winter elk population monitoring and criteria for emergency winter feeding, will be available for public review and comment beginning in May of this year. The draft plan will be posted on the WDFW website at http://wdfw.wa.gov, and meetings to collect public input will be held this fall before the plan is finalized. The plan will be complete before winter returns to the Mount St. Helens area. Your comments and participation in the planning process will guide the way Mount St. Helens elk are managed in coming years.

I hope these details give you a more complete picture of the steps WDFW has taken, and will continue to take, in managing the Mount St. Helens elk herd.

<font color="blue">Thank you for the time for the response, and I am going to do everything in my being to be at these meetings...I want to see my kids be able to grow up in a hunting/outdoor state and have the same, if not better hunting opportunities that I do. </font>

Sincerely,



Jeff Koenings, Ph.D., Director

Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife







&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;

Dr. Koenings


I apologize if you have been getting inundated with these issues however I needed to speak up.


What is being done to assist these animals in the Mt. St. Helens area?

Has WDFW done any reasearch into this? Do you have any plans for this area?


I am concerned with this issue, being a life long resident of WA, and a long time hunter, as well as a person that just likes to see a healthy abundance of animals.


Please let me know what is being done in this area, I fear it may be to late in this region to assist, but I am curious as a outdoorsman and hunter who deals with the increase in prices on Tags/Liscences fees etc on a yearly basis, for what seems to be less and less hunting opportunity.


Thank you for your time, and I look forward to your response.

[Rank Amateur]

Hey thanks for writing the director. Wow, 10% herd mortality is normal, gotta write that one down in my book. I hope he is meaning mainly calves and old cows, but what I saw on the video were mature bulls too. I think their mortality survey later this month is going to be..

[Fish Slapper]

Hi, I just wanted to keepthe thread alive, I recevied the same reply from the director word for word, no doubt he could care les in my opinion, if they have been working on it for 10 years and its this way now imagine how bad it will be in another ten years. I also received the same version of the reply with a few minor changes from my local politicians, I made sure they understood where my vote would go during the next election. I did receive som eresponses from RMEF and I will post them after I get their permission, they are not the response I wanted to hear but I assume they are corretc and honest. I am not sure what I really want to see done but I do know that this really ticks me off and I refuse to let this issue die. I am actually going to contact my company attorney to see what I can legally do to bring this to the attention of the public on a larger basis. I know that the only way that someone will be help responsible for this and that something will be done is if the heat gets turned up on high, if anyone has abnny suggestions I am certainly open to hearing them, pm me if you like. I hunt Elk in other states and I do not see this problem there so there must bne a way to overcome this, I know that I see alot of problems in my opinion with WDFW but this is just to much to let pass by. I am still waiting on a reply from the govenors office but I feare it will be a mirror response of the reply from the "Director" if they respond at all.

Mark Youngblood

[Broknt]

call mark smith he is the one that is really going toe to toe with the fish and game his numbers are. see if you can help him in any way.


mark smith
360 274 6542
360 274 7007

[Fish Slapper]

I will give him a call tomorrow I promise.

Thank you
Mark Youngblood