Question for the Wolf Experts

[HuntNFishAddict]

Had an interesting conversation @ one of my accounts today. We were talking about my land conservation project (Hunting) and the subject of Wolves and Cougars came up. I am of the opinion that once wolves are in an area they become the predominant predator. With that being said, I also believe that with the amount of damage being done to our elk & deer populations that adding the wolf further compounds the problem.

One of the guys stated that there was a study done in Yellowstone or Yosemite, not sure which, that showed when wolves were thriving the cougar population was kept in check and thus the deer and elk herds were also stronger.

Do any of you know anything about this? Is it factual and why would this occur. I belive that the wolf being the dominant predator would also diminish the herds.

Thanks for the input.
Jason

[Rank Amateur]

Not an expert, just a RankAmateur.

Hmm, both eat meat, one will kill the other, but both eat meat. No, just a displacement in favor of another. I think the elk herd in Yellowstone is still on the way down, we will get the final answer in the future.

Bottom line, elk hunting outside of the park has declined. Now that's a fact.

[Salmo trutta]

Email Doug Smith in Yellowstone with your questions. He'll answer back. Doug's in charge of Yellowstone wolves. You can also try Ed Bangs. He's a hunter and is in charge of the Rocky Mountain wolf recovery for the US Fish and Wildlife Service.

[traks44]

its my understanding that wolves will come in and either...

1. run cougars out of an area

2. kill off the cougars and keep their population in check

[HuntNFishAddict]

Thanks for the info gentlemen. Traks I travel to your neck of the woods about twice a month. The guys I know in the Baker City area are none to happy about the wolves.
I think a decline in the cougars is good, but not just if they are replaced by wolves!!!
Jason

[gottafish]

Well, yellow stone is apples to oranges with oregon. There are no human hunters there for yes the population remains stable. if you add hunters it would go down drasticaly. Point being if we have wolves you wont have hunters or at least as many as there are now. Wait till you have to have 10 points to draw a deer tag for the coast.

[Santiam338]

I don't know for sure,but I have heard that the elk population in Yellowstone has dropped dramatically with the arrival of wolves...As the wolf population goes up,the elk population goes down...Down by many thousands as I understand...

:depressed:

[traks44]

Agreed, I dont think the wolves killing cougars is any consolation!!!

[Santiam338]

Unless wolves have learned to climb trees,I can't see where they can have that much effect on cougar populations,except in direct competition for available prey..

[big foot]

In 2004 a question to one of the park rangers about the wolf effect on elk . On introduction of the wolf appro 10 years ago the north Yellostone herd was 18000, as of the fall of 2004 the heard was approx 9000 . No mention of courgars but they dont seem to be many in Yellowstone. She also went on to say they did not believe the wolf was the sole source of the decrease.

[scottishsetter]

Wolves hunt in a pack.(mouthes to feed)
They hang around 'the herd'.
Coug's. are opportunity hunters taking deer and an occasional elk.
Wolves are by far in 'my book' the more detremental predator to game animals(deer&elk).

[BrianMaguire]

Unless wolves have learned to climb trees,I can't see where they can have that much effect on cougar populations,except in direct competition for available prey..

They kill the kittens, and steal kills from the adults. Just like Hyenas in Africa. Ever wonder why cougars are so fearful of dogs.
Good article by Jim Zumbo

The fact that we don't have wolves has been one of my arguments that we need cougar control. Cougars natural enemy is the wolf and without a natural check they will get out of control, simple biology.

The study also showed that the wolves killed as much as 80% of the coyotes. The ecosystem changes dramatically with all sorts of ups and downs. Mule deer, from what I heard, are now doing much better in Yellowstone.

[Ras]

I have visited Yellowstone 1-2 times per year over the past 12. Early June to watch the griz hunting elk calves; Feb. to watch the wolves "hang-out" with concentrated wintering herds of elk and bison.

That being said; the grizzly population is benefiting from ALL of the additional meat on the ground (how's that for a benefit Oregonians :grin, coyotes have been hammered; and there have been a couple of documented wolf pursuits & kills of cougars. Now, YS does not have alot of cats, so WHEN they do settle down in numbers in Oregon I would bet the big dogs will chase the big cats just like fido and boots. Sooooo, eliminate 1,000 cats in exchange for 2,000 dogs .

(Just throwing numbers out there before someone wants to get worked-up on my math )

It's going to be interesting to see how things play-out; because they are going to

Ras

[BrianMaguire]

Sooooo, eliminate 1,000 cats in exchange for 2,000 dogs .
(Just throwing numbers out there before someone wants to get worked-up on my math )

This is from the link I posted, seems like it would be a wash trading 1 cougar for two wolves:
***************************************
.....suggesting that cougars followed living prey, bears focused on dead prey (gut piles and crippled elk) and wolves may have taken advantage of both.

Since 1999 we have examined 183 large mammal carcasses. Twice as many carcasses were found of animals killed by cougars as those killed by wolves.

(We) documented prey characteristics and kill-site attributes of predator kills during winters 1999-2001 in Idaho, and located 120 wolf-killed and 98 cougar-killed ungulates on our study site. Elk was the primary prey for both predators (wolf = 77%; cougar = 74%), followed by mule deer (wolf = 23%; cougar = 24%). Both predators preyed disproportionately on elk calves (wolf = 60%; cougar = 53%) and old individuals. Among mule deer, wolves appeared to select for fawns (65%), whereas cougars killed primarily adult deer (76%). Nutritional status of prey, as determined by percent femur marrow fat, was consistently poorer in wolf-killed prey, with a greater proportion of wolf-killed prey exhibiting fat levels indicating severe malnutrition.
****************************************

If a wolf cougar trade is a wash then we will be where we are at right now, not a good spot. But if we had some wolves and less cougars it is possible that we may actually benefit from it. Mule Deer benefit from less cougars and more wolves, of course not as well as neither but that will never happen, nor should it.

[BrotherWolf]

Just leave them wolves alone they never hurt no body!

[bajadan2000]

There has been talk about such studies, however, what do they really mean? Certain people that want our wildlife back to its natural state think re-introducing the wolf is a good idea. They use these un-real studies to get more funding for their programs.

Please look at past history to see if this is a good idea.

The first recorded history of the elk/deer populations in the OR/WA. area is from the journals of Lewis & Clark. This is the time when the wolf and grizzle bear where king. How many elk and deer where there? Well, Lewis & Clark almost straved to death from lack of game after they crossed over the Continental divide. They were trading with the Indians for dog meat to eat. Yes, it is all there in their journals. No elk or deer to be had because the wolf and grizzle were the predominant predators.

The study that needs to be done is the one that will go back in history to the earlist records and figure in the factors that have changed the populations of various game animals. Then chart these factors out to the present and see which ones are have had the most benifit and which do the most harm to our wildlife.

What has farming, logging, weather, hunting preasure, eco systym changes, and replacing predominant predators with man done to increase or decrease game populations? This study needs to be done. It is our total history that holds the answers to what is best for our game populations future. Not isolated, one sided studies.

My

[gottafish]

I saw a interview about the wolf reenterduction. the HSUS head Wayne par whatever Said that the wolf comming back was one of there greatest strides in eliminating the need for hunters. And felt within 20 years hunting in the west would be outlawed. So its there plan and There isn't a whole lot we can do about it now. I have made a personal decision about what I will do when I see a wolf. Have You???

[Rank Amateur]

Yep, I will see Wayne every time I pull the trigger!

[bullslayer]

I agree RA. All the reports I've read all point to the fact that the only winner in Yellowstone was the Aspen groves and other vegitation. With the decline of elk, the plant life sure is thriving. And so are the Wolves!! Kris.

[Rank Amateur]

Yes, and what will be ironic, is when the elk population bottoms out, the wolves will soon follow. I guess people like seeing dead and dying animals like in the LouWit refuge.

[2LEYS]

She also went on to say they did not believe the wolf was the sole source of the decrease.

They NEVER do. Just like in 1994. Oregon big game populations started the decline. BUT, it had nothing to do with the hound ban.

[freespool]

Wolf populations effect alot of things that most of us would not consider.

http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...p00/wolves.htm



salmon hugger

[rblsdad]

I'm no expert, but a few years ago I saw a wolf in the Desolation unit 2 different days while Elk hunting, I spoke with the store owner in Dale and he confirmed that he had seen wolves several times in the area I was hunting, local cattle wranglers also confirmed sightings, so I believe that they are aready here.

[gottafish]

There Have been wolves seen as far west as Olallie Lake. But according to the ODFW there just Hybred cross dogs somebody let loose. LOL Whish I was kidding!!!!

[gottafish]

From freespools post: Wolf packs not only lower the overall elk population, but may also change elk behavior by their very presence. Elk avoid areas frequented by wolves, which can include aspen thickets, and protect themselves by staying in open areas.

Does that mean that more elk will be pushed on to privet ranch lands? I guess damage control hunts will go Up??

[Rank Amateur]

Yep, and then you will have fewer elk yet.

We have to remember, elk were at one times a plains animal, probably because of the wolves. They probably found better survival out in the open.

So if we bring back the wolves, does that mean we are going to provide the habitat out in the plains for them? Ya, right.

[bajadan2000]

Some interesting things about the Aspen damage post.

A quote for the report:

"This hypothesis is not yet proven, and we're working closely now with National Park Service biologists in more than 115 permanent research plots to test the theory," Larsen said.

The report was made in Sept. 2000. over 5 years ago. Any updates on this hypothesis and all the research test?

This report makes no mention about the decline of Aspen outside of Yellowstone Park. Or why there is a decline in areas that elk do not habitat in. Could the real cause of the damage be other than elk? Say, disease, insects, and/or pollutants in the air from industrialization that fall into the same time period?

Funny how unproven hypothesis can be used by special interest groups to sell their propaganda, such as justifying the return of the wolf.

Yes, Elk eat Aspen bark, it keeps them alive in the winter. Now what? Chase the elk out of their good feeding areas. The elk will live where the best feed is and were it is safe. Just think of the added stress on the elk, being chased by wolves and not getting good feed. Nice thought. Bye-bye elk.

Here is an idea to correct the decline of the Aspen. Plant more Aspen! Not sure this reports hypothetical theory sold me on the idea that if the wolf returns, the Aspen poplulation will increase?

[Ras]

They'll push 'em down to the open country all right:














Someone will benefit in the long run though :grin:


Looking on the bright side, and back to the main question presented at the beginning of this post; there should be fewer cats

Ras

[gottafish]

http://www.hsus.org/wildlife/wildlife_ne...ray_wolves.html Check this link out but More importantly!!! Look at the OREGON groups invlove in the lawsuit. Thats a great indicator to whats goint to happen here.

<font color="red"> Parties to the suit are Defenders of Wildlife, Sierra Club, American Lands Alliance, Animal Protection Institute, Center for Biological Diversity, Forest Watch, Hell's Canyon Preservation Council, Help Our Wolves Live, The HSUS, <font color="blue"> Klamath Forest Alliance </font> , Klamath-Siskiyou Wildlands Center, Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility, Minnesota Wolf Alliance, <font color="blue"> Oregon Natural Resources Council </font> , RESTORE: The North Woods, Sinapu, and the Wildlands Project.

</font>

[gottafish]

Hope I didn't kill the thread???

[BrianMaguire]

This report makes no mention about the decline of Aspen outside of Yellowstone Park. Or why there is a decline in areas that elk do not habitat in.

Mooooo ... Cattle thrash aspen stands.

[gottafish]

Mooooo ... Cattle thrash aspen stands.

good point

[Rank Amateur]

I think there is a link between fire and aspens too, don't remember the details.

[freespool]

Here's a few other opinions:

http://www.jyi.org/features/ft.php?id=431

http://www.pacificviews.org/weblog/archives/000260.html

http://www.oriononline.org/pages/om/05-4om/Bass.html


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...50203220218.hm

http://www.pbs.org/strangedays/episo...onewolves.html



You must admit, it does bring about a very interesting theory.




salmon hugger