Riddle me this: home electrical

ampersat · 03-23-2006, 05:38 AM

I recently moved into a new home (it was actually built in 1962 and no, it does not have a Federal panel) and I'm trying to hunt down the gremlin in my electrical system. There's a long story behind it all but we'll cut to the chase:
I woke up this morning and the circuit in question was down again. Lights off, computer down, fridge getting warmer. So, I go to the stove (which, of course, is on its own 220 circuit) and jiggle the control for the right front burner. Voila, power is restored! (and the stove is quickly unplugged again)

But how can this be??? The stove is on its own circuit.

Obviously, there's something wrong with the stove (that, or it's coincidence of the highest order) and it will soon be replaced. But how in the world can something wrong with the stove cause a different circuit, and only that circuit (as far as I can tell) to lose power? They are on the same bus in the panel, so there's a clue, but at least one other circuit on that bus was still working because I moved the coffee pot out to the garage to get my morning fix.

baltz526 · 03-23-2006, 06:26 AM

i would pull the breakers. i have found where the bar the breakers are clamped on to be burned off due to faulty connections before

yankemnbankem · 03-23-2006, 06:28 AM

Too much juice being sucked out from one side of the panel. Need to replace panel soon with current panel. Some old panels were known to catch fire. Ive done my share of panel replacement and the house Im in now the person we bought from mis marked the panel so it's a real treat. Im not an electrician but im sure someone in here can help you out even further.

GSD · 03-23-2006, 06:44 AM

Quote:

i would pull the breakers. i have found where the bar the breakers are clamped on to be burned off due to faulty connections before

Do you pull breakers with the panel hot?

Swamp Puppy · 03-23-2006, 06:44 AM

i would have to agree and suspect the panel. I ran into a few Gremlins while wiring my house and can agree that some of them are downright headshakers.

the only other thing i could think of was that maybe at some point in time during the house's life that power was "robbed" from that circuit to power another circuit.

say, the wire from panel fails..so instead of replacing the wire from the panel that feeds the circuit, someone splices into another power line off the panel to run that circuit. but you said the stove is on a 220v circuit...so that probably isn't the case.

zipper · 03-23-2006, 06:46 AM

I'm no electrician but here's a wild guess... Where does the ground from the stove go? (assuming it's a three wire system and not 4) Does it share the same buss with the circuit that trips? Is it possible the breaker (220) is sized too large for the stove? If there is a ground fault somewhere in the stove and the breaker is sized too large that may be causing your trouble. Is the panel properly grounded? To ground with at least one rod and to the cold water pipes under the house? That's at least where I'd start looking. Good Luck. zip

Starr · 03-23-2006, 06:56 AM

Sounds like to me someone split off of the 220 volt circuit to other parts of your house. 220 volt is 2 hots, a common and a ground, 110 volt is 1 hot a common and a ground.
I bet the stove and the house circuit are on the same breaker, and if that is the case, too much power is being used by the stove.
Did it trip any breakers?

zipper · 03-23-2006, 07:17 AM

Good point... if someone spliced off one side of the 220 to run another circuit (which would be 110) then that would explain it. Common practice in days of old when the panel was full - potential bad situation there... check that out ASAP....

zip

ampersat · 03-23-2006, 07:17 AM

No breakers have tripped which is the part that has me really worried.

It's a Murray panel and I'm currently hunting down the "style MP" breakers it uses. The breaker for the circuit that is getting shut down makes a "spring" sound when I trip it, unlike the "thunk" sound that all the others make. I'm thinking the bimetallic strip that does the work in the breaker may have separated, if that's even possible.

I think I may have found the culprit, though, if not just another problem: the outlet in the garage for the washing machine gave me some flaky responses this morning and it's on the other side of the wall from one of the lamps that goes dead. I'll swap it out tonight (just so happen to have a bag full of three-prong outlets) and see if that fixes the problem.

Is it possible that surging the system by fiddling with the stove could cause a loose connection in this outlet to work?

And, no, as far as I can tell, they didn't split off one half of the 220 to make this circuit.

Swamp Puppy · 03-23-2006, 07:28 AM

are any of these circuits Ground Fault or Arc Fault breakers? i know that code on newer houses requires Arc Fault protection in bedrooms and GFCI protection in bathrooms and kitchens....not sure about yours though.

pugetplunker · 03-23-2006, 07:31 AM

open panel and remove breaker in question, inspect buse for signs of heat or high amp draw(if ok put the breaker back in) next tighten all fastners holding all wires in the panel.then on the circut in question check all connections at all outlets and switches.on plugs and outlets their are two options for connecting the wires.one way is to strip the wire and push it into a jam hole on the back of the device.the better way is to strip the wire and make a loop and hold it with the screws on the side. sounds to me from what you described you have a bad connection in one or more areas which will cause a high amp draw and blow the circut.once a breaker has seen high amps for awhile they become weak and unreliable. i would change the problem one.this is not a challanger brand panel is it? if it is turn it all off and change the hole thing (dont ask me why i know this)

iwanttofish · 03-23-2006, 07:35 AM

This house is too old for Ark fault breakers.

I would not mess with it call an expert that is what they do. I deal with panels every day but I would not try it myself. Call someone who can do this right.

I can give you a number for an elctrician if you need or you may know of someone.

Mike

Eagle-day · 03-23-2006, 09:28 AM

You need to ID each ckt one at a time. Sounds like lose connection in your stove is one problem.Someone may have tapped off a ckt is another. Check your main pnl neutral connection.Above all, if in doubt don't do it. Get a sparky in there and be safe.

Retired sparky

baltz526 · 03-23-2006, 09:29 AM

murry breakers are--ITE breakers

Swamp Puppy · 03-23-2006, 12:59 PM

Quote:

This house is too old for Ark fault breakers.

yeah, but you can turn a circuit into a GFCI protected circuit easily enough by simply replacing the first outlet in the circuit with a GFCI outlet...voila..Ground Fault circuit. (from that point on anyway...)

Arc fault, probably not as it requires an actual breaker, but you never know what has happened in the house over the years, so i thought i would ask.

Chrome Bumper · 03-23-2006, 03:31 PM

I have to second the call a professional idea. Sounds like something is not connected right. A good one should knock it out in an hour or two and you can then go fishing.

Chrome Bumper · 03-23-2006, 03:32 PM

I have to second the call a professional idea. Sounds like something is not connected right. A good one should knock it out in an hour or two and you can then go fishing. They can also evaluate your 43 year old wiring for overhaul. There are lots of people who do that for a living.

ampersat · 03-23-2006, 05:19 PM

As I recently purchased the home, I'll be contacting my home inspector and the seller's agent first thing tomorrow. I specifically requested a review of the panel by a licensed electrician at the sellers cost prior to the sale and have already left a message for that electrician to get in touch with me. If any of this results in damage and it's proven that the panel is at fault, he'll be the first person I sue.

I was out working on my dog run this afternoon and when I came back inside, things were off again. Checked the panel and no tripped breakers. Soon enough, the stuff was back up again (flicker, flicker) so I immediately mapped the electrical in the house. Three different circuits are impacted by the outage so I'm leaning waaaaaaaay over towards an issue at the panel. Two breakers are on the same bus; the third is directly across on the other bus. Professionals should be onsite at some point tomorrow to review the situation and hopefully get it resolved.

ps: and there went another flicker.

IDWITHELD · 03-23-2006, 05:52 PM

I will bet this is a split bus configuration. Large appliances on one leg and all lights / wall sockets etc on the other?

Lets clarify. You jiggle the stove control and the fridge comes back on? If you unplug the stove do you loose power to the refridgerator? If yes, the stove is feeding the fridge branch.

1962: stove wiring is hot, hot, neutral...am I right so far?

No ground. The Neutral was used back then as the "ground" for control or clock circuits in the stove.

I suspect the power for the fridge circuit is running through the stove. Due to a (now) faulty control you have interrupted the fridge branch.
Get an electrician in there asap. Do not hesitate. You may be at risk for an electrical fire.

I just rewired my entire house (1963 shoe box).
Let us know what you find.

Seefood Man · 03-24-2006, 06:21 AM

Hey Amp, pun intended

It sounds like you might have a breaker "double tapped". Look at the breakers and see if there is 2 black leads running into 1 breaker. If you find that, unplug the stove until a electrican gets in there to put the correct breaker in. Good Luck

zipper · 03-24-2006, 06:37 AM

WOW! My bad, when I first read your post yesterday, I was under the assumption you had breaker or breakers tripping out... This changes everything. Sounds like you're in a position to have someone (electrician) deal with the problem at little or no expense... that's the route to go for sure. I'm very curious as to what you find. In my old house I found wires spliced together in the wall to run different circuits - that could be what happened here - someone just spliced into one side of the 220 to run a 110 circuit - very unsafe situation. Does this flicker still happen with stove unplugged? If so, I too would suspect the panel or a loose connection... and I would still double check the grounding system. Good luck and let us know what you find. zip

newbeebob · 03-24-2006, 07:50 AM

I had the same systems in my house about a month ago. Only difference was that I wasn't loosing the power completely. Just getting brown outs. Ended up being the main 200 amp breaker was going bad. You could actually here it shorting out when it would happen. Ended up having to replace the entire panel, new main breaker and a new 100 amp breaker that fed the shop. Total bill was like $800.00.

Good luck

sunshinefisherman · 03-24-2006, 09:30 AM

Quote:

I will bet this is a split bus configuration. Large appliances on one leg and all lights / wall sockets etc on the other?

Lets clarify. You jiggle the stove control and the fridge comes back on? If you unplug the stove do you loose power to the refridgerator? If yes, the stove is feeding the fridge branch.

1962: stove wiring is hot, hot, neutral...am I right so far?

No ground. The Neutral was used back then as the "ground" for control or clock circuits in the stove.

I suspect the power for the fridge circuit is running through the stove. Due to a (now) faulty control you have interrupted the fridge branch.
Get an electrician in there asap. Do not hesitate. You may be at risk for an electrical fire.

I just rewired my entire house (1963 shoe box).
Let us know what you find.

BULLEYE!
Either the entire buss on one side is dead and is being fed by the stove or a portion of the 120 circuits are. In either case, repair is called for. Open neutral problems can also do strange things and can be difficult to track down.

I recently purchased a fixer-upper of the same vintage and I have found many things to fix. If you have ungrounded, 2-prong outlets, replace them with GFCIs. I suggest either replacing your existing panel or supplementing it with a sub-panel. Sometimes it is easier to put in a sub-panel and move only some things. This is also a great time to put in a generator transfer switch if you desire. What I did was installed a new combination panel (meter base and breaker panel combined) with a new underground service. Then I fed my old 200 amp panel with a 100 amp feeder from the new panel. I also provided a 100 amp sub feeder to the 200 amp panel in my shop. This will work well in the future as I move individual circuits over to the new panel. Eventually, the old panel will go away.

One thing you are likely to find are circuits with oversize breakers. I found 16 guage Romex (10 amp capacity) with 20 amp breakers.

Two or more wires under one breaker screw is not the best but it is not really that hazardous as long as the trip rating of the breaker does not exceed the amperage carrying capacity of the wires.

You will probably also find splices done outside of boxes or boxes without covers. These are hazardous but easily fixed.

Good luck!

Gundog · 03-24-2006, 04:27 PM

Amp,
I have worked for many years as a trouble shooter for the Power Co. Give them a call the problem could be on their side. If you are there when he shows up he may even help you trouble shoot the problem if it is on your side. Electricity does funny things and trouble shooting on the net is not something I would want to tackle.
GD

ampersat · 03-24-2006, 04:58 PM

I called a well recommended electrician and discussed my symptoms with him. He believes the problem to be on the neutral side, which is why it wouldn't trip the breaker. If that's the case, there's less of a risk of fire (except for those times when it's flickering a lot because of the arcing, and I don't notice a whole lot of flickering). He couldn't make it today but will be by tomorrow morning to have a look at things. He mentioned that the problem may be on PGE's side.

Gundog · 03-24-2006, 05:13 PM

Quote:

He believes the problem to be on the neutral side, which is why it wouldn't trip the breaker. If that's the case, there's less of a risk of fire (except for those times when it's flickering a lot because of the arcing, and I don't notice a whole lot of flickering)

This is very bad advice open neutrals are the cause of many fires. You don't have to wait until tomorrow call PGE now and they will send someone out now. This needs to be trouble shot by a profesional I did this for a living for over 20 years without a volt meter and some other test equipment no one can give you a good answer from here.
GD

wind troller · 03-24-2006, 06:03 PM

Don't know if this will help or if it applies in your case. My brother had a very weird problem in his house, flip the light switch in the livingroom and the garbage disposal would turn on. Some circuits wouldn't work unless a switch for something else was turned on, very goofy problem. It turned out that a tree branch had rubbed through one of the feeds to his house so the only way a 110 device would work was if it was referenced to ground through another circuit. PGE repaired it promptly, you may want to have them come out and do a free check of your AC supply first.
A funny afternote: for some reason when my brother was troubleshooting the problem he cut the seal on the meter and removed it, the PGE folks didn't replace it so when the repairs were done he accidentally put the base on upside down and his meter ran backwards for a month, don't think PGE paid him for the electricity he used. :smile:
Good luck on solving your problem.