Gillnetters

[fishon]

Could somebody pleas explain to me this whole gillnetting thing I have never heard of it before. Who does it and why and what do they do with all the fish isnt it illegal to do that.

[Pilar]

Hey fishon, welcome from a fellow newbie! I don't pretend to know a lot about netters but here's what I know. The Gov. agencies split up the fish left after hatcheries get what they need amongst several groups of fishers. Sports guys like you and me, commercial fishers who use gillnets, trolled lines and other methods and Indian tribes who were guaranteed access to their traditional fishing grounds by treaties signed a hundred years ago. Seasons and quotas are set and seasons close as the quotas are filled, often without much notice.

What everybody is griping about is the total lack of sportsmanlike conduct exibited by the guys using the nets. These gillnets are weighted on the bottom and floated on the top and float down the river strip mining whatever is swimming through. Often the nets are left in the water too long and the fish rot in the net. The sport fishing really suffers during the times when netting is scheduled. It hardly seems fair, other non targeted fish (sturgeon and wild ones) are incidentally caught and everybody wants the same patch of the water.

The other nets are seines. These are similar to gill nets but are strung in a circle which is closed at the bottom and then hauled in. This is what has Timberman so hot. The tribal rabble sets their beach seine around where the bank guys are fishing. The bankers are then required to pull up (why?) and move. I don't understand that part at all. Courtesy would require most of us to move on if the hole of choice already has somebody else's attention that day.

The last method is dip netting. You see the Indians doing this at cascade locks and other places where fish back up downstream of an obstacle. This method is the closest to what went on before manifest destiny and the great european migration into Indian territory.

Any way there is a lot of scribble on this board about this. You can tell that everyone is pretty keyed up about nets and would like to have a monofilament net bonfire.

The bend is your friend!

Fish on, gill nets are long large strong nylon mesh netting that are stretched across sections of rivers. There are different mesh sizes (the size of each opening) that will allow protection of very large fish if very small mesh sizes are used. However, it is a fact that the ones used by Indian and non-Indian commercial netters take most fish that swim into them and they become trapped by their gill plates getting stuck in the netting. They die a slow struggling death, because there is no one to bonk them out of their misery. They are also indesciminate killers, taking endangered native salmon and steelhead stocks as well as other species such as sturgeon. They should be illegal but as of yet have not been outlawed, only restricted. There has been ballot initiatives in both Washington and Oregon to ban these outdated forms fish take, but they went down to defeat because of the money and lobbying power of the non-Indian commercial netting associations and the fact that only a minority of the population are serious sportfishers of salmon and steelhead. What is ironic about that is the population in general will be paying a huge price for the immense regional efforts that are to be mandated by the Federal Government, via the Fed. Endagered Species Act, to save these native stocks of fish. There will be higher prices for such as electricity, food/agricultural products, timber/wood products, curtailed use of such chemical products as used for lawns and washing cars, and on and on!!! The public had wool over their eyes! Let's hope not next time. As for the Indians, the Fed.s have unethically, and likely illegally (the NW states have sued the Fed.s and Treaty Tribes), allowed the Treaty Tribes of the Columbia region and many areas of Washington to take more than the ruled upon 50% share of the fish deemed harvestable. Very ironic, unfair, illegal, unethical, and downright foolish given the immense implications of the ESA equation. Unlike netters, sportfishers will be able to properly release native fish essentially unharmed. - That's probably a bit more than you asked for, but this message needs to be spread far and wide. Help us out with that please; everyone. Thanks. - RT

[NorthRiverS]

I was fishing lower Government Island today and the guy who I was anchored next to told me a story about a recent gill net incident. It seems that the guy was fishing in the same spot he was in today, with numerous other fishermen, and he had been there for hours. Well along comes Mr. Gillnetter and strings out his hardware. The nets come floating down the river and nearly wrapping this guys boat, float and anchor. It's all the sportsman can do to get out of the way of the nylon curtain. So he's ******. He goes over to tell the gillnetter he's not happy, and the gillnetter tells the sportsfisherman to get the hell out of his way, since he's trying to "make a living". Like the sportsman has no right to be there.
Is this the attitude of the gillnet society? Do they think they have more rights than we do? Are they better than us. I could hardly believe this story, but I'm positive it's true.

[This message has been edited by NorthriverS (edited 09-01-2000).]

[Slider]

Fish on,

Thought you should actually hear the "REEL TRUTH" about gillnets and the Columbia River from a former commercial gillnetter. As was stated before, a gillnet is a net that is stretched out in a section of water to catch fish. The net is 600-1500'long and is made up of diamond meshes the numbers depend on the size of mesh. The size of mesh depends upon the type of species fishing for. For Chinooks you would want to use 9" mesh or bigger, for coho 6" mesh, sturgeon 9.5" mesh, shad 3.5" gear and smelt 1.25" gear. There are two distinctly different types of gillnets, the diver net and the floater net. The floater is positively buoyant and is best for salmonids. The diver net is negatively buoyant and is best for sturgeon. The nets can be selective to what fish they harvest not only by their mesh size but also the timing of the season. Since 1976, steelhead have been illegal for non-tribal gillnet fisherman, thus large mesh nets (9" or bigger) are used. Since the average size chinook caught in these nets is significantly bigger than any steelhead around, the steelhead can swim through the larger mesh. For all the times that I commercially fished, I don't anymore, I was always amazed the number of fish that saw the net or hit the net and either swam around it, jumped over it, or swam under it.

Commercial gillnetting has been on the Columbia River since the mid-1800's and reached it's prime in the early 1900's. Since the 1920's they have had their seasons shortened considerably, much like the other users of the resource. The one thing that I must state, is that the ODFW and WDFW are doctrined to manage the river for all users, sport, non-treaty and treaty. It is a legislative law that "allows" gillnetting on the Columbia River. The thing that most sport fishers do not realize, is that without the gillnet fishers there would be alot less fish released from the hatcheries. RT has spoke before on how his license fees pay for those fish, well that is not true. The license fees pay for fish restoration, the propagation of trout and steelhead and some fisheries management. The vast majority of the hatcheries on the Columbia River are state hatcheries that are FEDERALLY funded. That means that anybody in the USA contributes to the hatcheries existence.

The simple fact is, for gillnets to have seasons there needs to be lots of fish released thus lots of fish returning. That benefits the sport angler considerably. If there were no gillnets on the Columbia River there would be no need for the Federal funds to exist at the amount they do. That equals less fish released and less fish to catch. The sport fisheries are not as effecient as the gillnet fisheries. The gillnets are needed to catch those fish that the sports cannot get and the hatcheries have no room for.

Sorry to ramble on, but I really hate to see inaccuracies spoken as gossiple. This is incredibly brief and I am sure I will think of tons to add.

Slider

Fishon, since you are new here I will fill you in a little. Slider is our resident pro-gillnet guy on here. I think every BB should own one to have fun with. Like the other members on this public fishing forum, I am anti-gillnet for very sound good reasons. This has set up some interesting debate between Slider and me. Use the search feature to access some of the former debate, including one fun mock court session (I think I just heard Slider cringe all the way from hear). - Some reply to his above post: NW sportfishers also pay federal taxes, not just state tax and fishing lic. fees. Importantly, when he claims that gillnetters increase the numbers of hatchery salmon & steelhead he conveniently forget to mention that gillnets kill declining ESA protected native salmon & steelhead! Those fish are much more important and treasured as an irrreplacable resourse. In fact, we are all going to find out just how important as the Fed. Endangered Species Act turns our world upside down over it! Or should I say upside right. The gillnets will be among the first things to go in the not too distant future, by F-ESA &/or by ballot. Another thing that angers sportfishers is that since the 1976 ruling attempting to protect steelhead by increasing gillnet mesh size, in reality that mostly protected smaller hatchery steelhead, while continuing to kill off most of the remaining larger native steelhead. One example that myself and other local fishing guides experienced was the dramatic decline thru the 70's & 80's of the larger native steelhead on the Clackamas R. because the springer gillnet season on the lower Columbia R. in Feb./Mar. each year was at the same time that the later running and larger native steelhead came up thru the Col. And they got wiped out! We used to catch a fair number of them weighing from the mid-teens on up into the 20's back in the 60's & 70's, then endured their continued dramatic decline and virtual disappearance thru the 80's. They haven't come back since. Other factors were involved but none as big as the gillnet slaughter of these nates! Same for many other rivers. Now slide this by us Slider; if the law "allows" non-Indian gillnetting for you and some other special chosen individuals, why do you guys have this right and not the rest of us??? Don't lay the grandfathered in license bullsh*t on us either. There are offers on the table to buy them back as should be done. A lot of our grandfathers hunted bald eagles and spotted owls too. You get the point. And as far as having "too many" fish show up at the hatcheries, how about throwing away the nets and trade your netting licenses for the right to sort thru and take the best of the excess hatchery fish?!? Bingo! Pretty simple. The nets would no longer kill irreplacable native fish runs and they wouldn't intercept the fish downstream of the sportfishers! - I again rest my case. Unless you bring up more bullsh*t. Since I'll be out of town and am tired of your self-interest crap, I'll let other qualified members play with you if they want to. - RT - Edit: Please pardon my use of the words bullsh*t and crap. It stems from a deep anger of losing the treasured large late winter native steelhead from the Clackamas River, which brought on anger as I wrote this post. I appologize. I should set a better example; read my post below. I'm embarrassed because I've warned others to be careful of language. I will too now.


[This message has been edited by RT (edited 09-01-2000).]

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

AMEN BROTHA!

[Slider]

Loosing your cool there are we? I was suprised to see you attack my opinions in the manner you did. It is ok to have a difference in opinions, but respect the difference! You might be anti-gillnet and you know what, that is fine. That is your opinion whether it be right or wrong. The same respect should be given to me or others.

Fishon wanted info on what gillnetting was. My outlook is just as important as yours. I too bring valuable info to this board that should be viewed by others and they should form their own opinions. If an individual does not have the right to get both sides of the story and then form their own opinion then the person has the problem of forming tunnel vision.

As far as your so called special right to gillnet, there are only a finite number of permits available. They routinely become available for sale, most times as a complete package with boat, trailer, permit, and gear. If you have the perseverence and patients to try your hand at this not-so-easy vocation, by all means try. It is not a selective brotherhood.

The buy-outs you refer to were more talk than substance. In other words no price was agreed upon but there never was funding behind it to make it a reality.

For those of you who have questions and would like a different take, I would respond to most posts.

Slider

[Hookset]

RT, I'm a little surprised at your attitude and offended with your use of foul language on this BB. In my opinion, Slider helped explain the gillnetters and how these nets operate. No voice in favor or against, just educating us none gillnet sportfisherman. I'd like to thank him for his time and response. You sir (RT), should apologize.

What I've always failed to understand with gillnetters, is why gillnet? There are more economical means of catching fish for market and lets not forget fish farming which is probably going to eliminate most commercial methods used at present. The other item should be quality of catch. Fished caught up river in gillnets have to be poorer tabel fair then fresher ocean caught fish and farmed fish.

The larger part of the picture which needs to be addressed is economical impact. Gillnetters only positively impact fiancially a small number of people. While sportsfisher people impact a LARGE group of businesses and people that depend on fishing seasons for a large portion of their yearly profits. From restaurants, gas stations, boat dealers, car dealers, hotels/motels, grocery stores, sporting good stores, bait shops, charter boats etc......, this money probably numbers in the billions just on the Lower Columbia alone. Just the shear numbers of private boats should be evidence enough on the magnatude with sports fishing seasons. It's past time to give sports fishing seasons there fair share.

So if the Federal government helps finance our state run hatcheries, I'll bet that money would still be there even if gillnet seasons were eliminated. Since the federal treaty gurantees Indian tribes fish for subsistance, then hatcheries will have to stay to support this. Supporting hatcheries and releasing smolts will also ease tribal catch of endangered species.

In other words, there is no viable reason to support or maintain gillnet seasons on the Lower Columbia. Gillnetters are symbolic of a past shrouded in controversy over extinct upriver fisheries that have long been erased for decades. Why should any of us support or want to maintain ties a commercial fishery that has created more problems then it ever resolved.

hook

Slider and Hookset, are you both absolutely right. I appologize to the BB members, and to Slider in particularly, for using inappropriate language. Since I should set a better example and have warned others about language, I find myself embarrassed as I re-read my post today. If you read some of my other post replies from last night you'll notice that I was in a silly mood, and being human sometimes my judgement slips a bit (I will ban myself for one week starting Sunday). - Sorry Slider, it wasn't as personal as it sounded because I don't even know you. I am obviouly passionately against gillnetting by both commercials and Indians and have read posts that only include the self-interest non-complete side of the story, with little if any interest in the importance of saving our wild fish stocks. It gets me angry in a hurry. And I will continue to address the issue and one-sided information. I will do so in better tones henceforth. BTW, in response to your reply post above in which you express that readers should be allowed to hear your opinions and make up thier own minds, you say that as if you had been censored. Not. None of your posts have ever been deleted or edited by Ifish. They are right there for people to read and take into account for what they feel they're worth. - Take care, Steve

[This message has been edited by RT (edited 09-01-2000).]

[fishhunter]

All's I have to say is GILL NETTING IS FOR *******, find a new line of work to support your fish eating families. Gill nets should be outlawed. If you want to gill net move to Japan. Nets kill whatever's in their path, so find a new job.