Is Being Critical Of Indian Fishing Activity Racist?

I got an e-mail from one of our BB members expressing that some of our posted complaints about Indian fishing activity borders on ehthnic group racist bashing; even though in agreement with much of what was said in principle. Since I have been one of the most critical of many of the unfairnesses and abuses of Indian fishing activity I gave it some thought and replied back. (BTW, I had a Native American that I've been corresponding with say that it is OK to refer to them as Indians). I will post my reply here and welcome feedback from anyone regarding thoughts on the subject. - My reply: After reading your e-mail letter I can see that we think much alike. I don't accept pure racism. But at the same time I am resigned to the fact that many issues are defined by race; such as Northwest Indian fishing issues. So we can't help but address the wrongs within those issues by expressing that they involve Indians. We can't say that some "people" came into Hood's Canal with nets and told sportfishers to get the heck out of here while we illegally net. "What people?!?" is the legitimate big Q that would follow and have to be answered. And, as I mentioned, those people being Indian was definitely a central factor in why it happened; not because Indians are bad (that is both racist and wrong), but because they were Indians with misguided beliefs that they deserve special fishing rights even outside Treaty and lawful provisions; and those particular ones were very disrespectful of the fishers already rightfully fishing there by the time they arrived! It's the same principle with the Col. Tribal Commission's attitudes (demanding that the NMFS give them all of the ESA fish allocations and none to the sportfishers; resulting in the NW state's lawsuit). I'm glad you see that's not racism; at least not on our part. It's realism. - RT


[This message has been edited by RT (edited 08-27-2000).]

[Trick]

Excellent! Your a very well spoken individual and you make excellent points. I've read through the posts and I agree that the color of the offending individuals skin has no bearing on the posts. They could have been white or any other color and that wouldn't have made it any better for those people to stomp all over the rights of Timberman. My great grandmother was a full-blooded Cherokee and we always used the term "Indian" to describe our family heritage. That, in no shape or form, is a racist word. What makes me spitting mad is again that a U.S. citizen following the posted laws, is walked all over by anyone and is told by goverment workers that "Our hands are tied". These Indians are law breakers and they are doing their tribes a disservice by operating this way. I agree with RT 100%, he hit the nail on the head!

[Sandybar]

RT Racism or not? No I don't think so, Indians have the right to fish how they like within the treaty set by law. However if we abuse our rights we loose our privileges, such as a D.U.I and our rights to drive are waived. If the Indians are above the law set by the treaties then they should loose there privileges.

What we need to do as fisherman, is to determine if they are indeed within the law.
I couldn't tell you if they are within the law or not, I don't understand it. But as sportmen's we need to find out.

RT I have a good friend whom I fish with that is an indian and yes he fishes with a fishing pole! Onced asked him why he did not fish with his tribe, and his reply was my tribe does not fish within the treaty and I'm embarassed to be a part of my people.
I could go on but I might sound like a racist which is what were trying not to do.

Yes I'm mad as heck about the Hoods Canal incident, and also what seems to be alot of salmon that are netted on the Columbia. Lets see if they within the law set by the treaties . Then we can act responsibly as sportsmans to the cause.



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Sandybar

[dawhunt]

HI RT,I don't believe that,I'm a racist,I'm
just tired of hearing about there treaty rights,then they go out and do what they did at Hoods Canal,I've got pictures of that slaughter of thousands of salmon(bucks)all they wanted were the hens for eggs to sell to the japanese.I sent the pictures to fishing & hunting news they puplished them along with others that people sent in,I then had a lawyer send me a letter asking for copies to use in court in olympia,so I sent
him some copies.They did this JUST BECAUSE THEY COULD,and knew there was nothing that would be done to them for it.THEN I've got an aunt and uncle ( by marriage) that live in morton wa.,that used to have elk in there yard on a daily basis,that is untill the indians slaughtered them too,they told me they would shoot them and if they didn't die near the road they would leave them there to rot JUST BECAUSE THEY COULD !!! and dared us to do something about it cus they got treaty rights !!!.Well when those treatys were signed they didn't have high powered rifles and they didn't have snowmobiles and they didn't have gillnets so maybe they should be forced to hunt and fish the old way !!!
Now I'm not blameing all the indians for what a few bad apples do but why don't they prosacute(spelling again)them,themselves,but the indian cops see no evil and hear no evil.
I have no use for Sen Gordon,but I think he had the right idea to take away the treatys and make them citizens of the USA,then they have to live by our rules and regulations just like we do.We have bad apples in our race too,the differance is when there caught they PAY for it.How much longer are we going to be forced to pay for something that happened 100 yrs ago.If our government had any b--'s they would have said OK,you want gambleing halls to provide income for your people then you give up your fishing rights and live by our laws on hunting and fishing.Seeing as how they only fish to feed themselves right,with all the money there rakeing in with the gambleing there makeing a good enough liveing to support the tribe and don't need those fishing and hunting rights anymore.Just hunt when we do by law !!!,Now there going to have there own business makeing tax free smokes,WHENDOES IT END,If this makes me a rasict,then I guess I am.



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Bob Dawson

Thanks for the supportive posts here. And Bob, when you pointed out the truth that all races of people have both good people and then some "bad apples", with that genuine attitude I don't see it as racist when you are plaintive about some of the bad apple activities of some Indians; hoping to expose wrongs and have them corrected. -- While on this subject I would like to address what can be considered wrongful racism against me and many other caucasion people. That is when some members of minorities include me within group blame against "white" people for the wrongs against and plights of miniorities; such as Indians, Blacks, and Hispanics. It's becoming very annoying to hear Indian, and some non-Indian, people use phrases such as "we" stole Indian land and "we" killed off most of the Columbia fish runs by building dams. "I" am not part of "we" just because me and my ancestor's are of Euro caucasion descent! My ancestor's did not come to America (from Norway and Sweden) until the very late 1800's. So they came AFTER the Indian battles and treaties were over. My ancestors did not participate in the building of dams in the Northwest or anywhere else. They lived and raised my father and mother in a couple of small Montana ranching towns. They did not use electricity until well into the 1900's, after some northwest Indians had already begun to use it in some of their villages. My point is that many of us "whites" had nothing to do with any of the 2 major Indian issues! Yet we are racially discriminated against and BLAMED wrongly for things that were done by other's ancestors that are long gone now. Yet we pay an unfair price for it!! And the ones whose ancestors did participate in wrongful, but normal, history should not be held unfairly responsible for the actions that occured before they even existed. My questions to Indians, and their leaders, is why can't we all live together in the NOW under current national conditions; while still being afforded enough opportunity to practice some cultural customs in a manner that doesn't cause such major upset of the rest of us?- RT

[Nuttinbutnet]

RT- I guess it's just human nature for some to yell unfair when they are getting the bad end of a deal. The Tribal Treaties were made by the U.S in a time when they did't give a tinkers damn about fish or timber for that matter. Put them someplace where we don't have to see them, let them run their own deals so that we don't have to bother and they can do their little cultural practices and not bother us. And this was just fine until the fish started dwindling and Uncle Sam started telling us we couldn't catch fish anymore. And when we start yelling how come, Uncle Sam says it is because they have to keep enough fish for the Indian to catch. BECAUSE IT IS THE DEAL THAT THAY MADE!!!!!The deal that was made before "WE" were born! So now we are born and we don't like the deal that was made so it's time to change it? I agree that there are those that always seem to break the law and there should be a way to punish the lawbreakers, but, when was the last time we tried to abolish drinking because drunk drivers kill innocent people. How would we decide which of their cultural customs would be allowed? Oh yeah, WE would vote!!!

[Pilar]

RT, be strong bro! Don't succumb to the 'Victim' mentality that is killing our great country. If you have something to say about a group of outlaws say it! The fact that the outlaws seem to be of one ethnic persuasion is irrelevant!

Work on finding a way to bring these abuses to light or the 6 oclock news. Believe me getting this stuff on the media is the first step to raising a big stink. The offenders would prefer it to remain a big secret.

Nothing offends me more than the wasting of a natural resource. This part of the country is full of people that feel the same way! How much play would the Indians get from their "Victim" status when they were clearly shown wasting fish on a video tape. Discarding fish because they are bucks or highgrading the eggs for sale to Japan would be highly offensive to most people. We have to get this into the public view. The rest would take care of itself!

Stay the course, RT. This is one of the few forums where this kind of stuff is discussed! You are doing the rest of us a great service, keep it going and thanks. The bend is your friend!

[wak'm&stak'm]

I by no means feel I am a racist, I live and work with many Tribal folks. I am tired of special interest groups, no matter what they are or profess to be. Isn't interesting though how a group of people will take their claims to court for special rights, because they genetic links to certain customs and traditions. Then you hear them scream bloody murder if they feel they are treated differant, IF THEY DON"T WANT TO BE TREATED DIFFERANT THAN QUIT ASKING FOR SPECIAL TREATMENT.
I come form a long line of hunters and fisherman in fact you could say I have deep seated roots also, with tradition that goes back many generations, so I am given any special rights ?.....NO
I think all tribal folks should carry on their customs, they should WALK from home with HOMEMADE bows and arrows, stand on the bank with their spears, and paddle their dugouts all they want, just like their elders. THey should leave high powered rifles, 4X4, and jetboats in the garage.
I have carried on these type of conversations with the Indians I went to shcool with and work along side and they don't even think it is fair but like they say "we do it because we can and you would also if you could get away with it and maybe I would but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

To answer some of your Q's Nutin' : It's not just that us sportfishers don't like the deal that was made, and how they don't fit today's fish survival equations, it's also because the Indians are getting more fish than those deals called for! Both by unfair NMFS allocation and outright law breaking. That is where you have heard the loudest complaints. And yes, it is time for appropriate change! And yes, there has been much unified efforts to change this counties drinking laws all the time (haven't you noticed?). - RT

[garyk]

Well RT, you're not going to like this post but I'll make some quick points.

First, this topic seems to stem from some "Hood Canal" incident. I'm not familiar with what happened but no, mentioning wrong-doing if it is truly illegal - is not racist.

HOWEVER, when discussing Tribal fishing and treaty rights, one is truly remiss in not giving full and ample recognition to the historical context, the results of which we live with today. This nation pursued an active policy of genocide against the Indians. In northern California and perhaps elsewhere there were actually bounties placed on Indians. So called 'Indian fighters' like Custer and Sheridan, by and large, slaughtered women and children.

After doing all we could to eliminate Indians and their culture it's particularly disturbing to see such strident remarks made by comfortable, well-off people who fish for recreation.

Finally, although your, and mine, ancestors were not involved in the genocide. We enjoy the 'spoils' today of what was taken. Therefore, we do have a moral responsibility to honor the treaties. And as the winners there's no way that 'white people are discriminated against', as one post mentions. You might not get your way all the time but that is not discrimination.

On the plus side, when it comes to Columbia salmon restoration, treaty salmon rights may very well prove to be the final ace that wins the battle.

[wak'm&stak'm]

Please garyk, I dare you to find any race that hasn't been wronged in one way or another. I truly feel for people and the woes of the past, but if you think we can correct all the wrongs, I think you are gravely mistaken.
We all most learn how to forgive and move on and I wish the tribes could have done the same, but why should they. They can have their Nation within a Nation and work both sides of the fence...if they want to seperate themselves then that is what they should do. But I wish we could put the past behind us and start living with common goals, because if we don't this will just fester forever and no good will ever come of it.

[Nuttinbutnet]

Hey Wak'm, as far as separation is concerned, it was "WE" who wanted the separation, not the native. "WE" wanted the land that the native lived on. "WE" put them on reservations where "WE" wanted them to be. "WE" wrote the Treaties and told them what they could do and not do. Now "WE" are getting the bad end of the deal "WE" wrote. Now "WE" want to change the deal because "WE" are not getting what we want. The system that the Native uses now is not something they thought up. "WE" taught them. And for good or bad, they sure are good learners. It seems kind of wrong to cry foul when you get beat by your own rules. RT still hasn't told me how "WE" are going to decide which cultural customs we are going to allow the Native. And to answer the question, I am not a Native American.

[Salmonator]

WOW, didn't this all start out with a few indians engaged in illegal harvest practices?? I'm sorry about the Indians plight, but regulations are regulations and if they are doing a little fudging right out in the open (because law enforcement allows them to) then what are they doing when no ones around??

[Barnyard]

They are dumping 70,000 lbs of lower quality goouy ducks(sp)in hood canal..This so they can harvest larger more profitable ducks. When caught they said they wouldn't harvest as many next year...

[garyk]

Salmonator, good point succinctly made. What is illegal is illegal and the rules should be enforced. I don't think anyone's arguing against that. I only chipped in after the tenor of the thread turned into a disturbing attack on treaty rights; that WE shouldn't honor the treaties any longer; and that WE non-Indians were being discriminated against.

[Okiedrifter]

hey r.t. ... since as u know im married to a f.b. indian ,, i can say im not racist, towards indians...but wrong is wrong, period. they do take advantage. laws that were introduced a 100 yrs. ago , are no longer in the best intrest to this country. take (slavery,unrestrictive buffalo hunting, no bag limits on wild game, dumping polutants on the ground or in the sea etc. etc. etc.) gill nets period are a bad idea in this day and age,,even the indians thier self reconize, that some laws r out dated , as long as it suits thier needs at the time, and u had better bet ur best hat that they will fight and lobby for thier behalf only..take for instance the sale of spirts, or gambaling on indian ground, this was once illeagal as hell, but look around now, it was the indians who said this is out dated and lobbied to change the laws to thier benifit, well it needs to change again but it will take apowerfull fight to do it,,and im not sure the state of oregon or fedral gov, will ever try untill its to late..i and my wife, stand up hear today and say shame on any one who abuses there own heritage , ...........
ron and the elkpacker


p.s.
we did not do our feelings justice with this post but maybe u will get our gist.


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okiedrifter

I'd like to pass along another good point brought up to me via e-mail. When we post statements about negative Indian activities it should be said that most of us know (and many have expressed) that these are not blanket indictments of all Indians. When reporting wrong doings on here it would be better if we could post that it involved a group from a particular tribe. When that's not known, please be aware of the above statement. The same principal applies to the unfair use of the would "we" when indicting the white race (I think you should go back and read my 8/27 10:04 post under this thread again Nuttin'). I will state again what should be very obvious to all, but it seems to get forgotten: There are both good and fair people, and also bad and law/ethics breaking people among all races! What is being addressed here are the unfair Treaty and fishing law breaking activities of some Indians. Is has become widespread enough that it needs to be brought out in the open to the public to help correct wrongdoing. And there is much more at stake than recreational fishing opportunity here! THE NATIVE FISH ARE AT STAKE! With that said, my answer to you Nuttin' is that in my opinion the Indian customs that should certainly be allowed to go on are the ones present before and at the time the Treaties were signed; accept ones that are obviouly very negative, such as hunting the few remaining buffalo (as are present in Yellowstone National Park). That would mean they should stop the use of mass killing modern gillnets and modern power boats to help distribute them over native fish runs! The same should now be abolished for non-Indians too! Until those things can be accomplished we should have a much stronger system of fish and game law enforcement to stop the illegal activities of both Indians and non-Indians! And to keep Indians from getting more than what the Treaties and Fed. court interpretations have allowed for. Pretty simply concept. I wish it were as simple to implement. We must continue to fight for our fish and the proper methods to fish for them given the conditions of the world we live in NOW. -- Thanks for your above input Ron and Monica (Okiedrifter - Oregonians temporarily in Oklahoma). Tell Monica hello from me. I have enjoyed communicating with her and learning things from the perspective of a Native American Indian. When are you two coming back to Oregon? Take care. - Steve



[This message has been edited by RT (edited 08-29-2000).]

[cts258]

I am part Indian and proud of my Indian heritage. My grandparents were born on a reservation and I have done a lot of research on my heritage and even visited the reservation and talked to alot of Indians over the years(most from NY. and Penn.)which is were my heritage is from.
The only special privliges they have is they dont pay or charge taxes on the reservation. The same holds true if you or I would buy anything on the reservation we wont pay taxes either. off the reservation they follow the same laws we do which includes hunting and fishing.
My question is were does this treaty come into play????? and why is it only on the west coast?????
We contribute to fishing every year when we buy our fishing licence. How do the Indians contribute??????
I agree treaty or not it is wrong to make someone move on while fishing since the water is public.
If the Indians are fishing in public waters they should follow the rules the same as everyone else. with poles not nets.
Let the dept.of fish&wildlife do there jobs and manage the fishing. Im sure they can control the fishing to make it plentyful for all of us if we all follow there rules and not some ancent treaty.
As far as any racisim I have not seen any on this page only good points that need something done about the unfair fishing laws.
Lets make it fair EQUAL RIGHTS for all.
what happened in the past is over. Everyones ancecters were treated poorly at some point in time so lets all forget the past and live for today.
If anyone knows how we can fight this law lets all get together and do it after all this is disciminating against all the people living in the (so called white mans world)

[wak'm&stak'm]

Very well said cts258, You are much better with words than I. I wish more shared your views and true appreciation for the wildlife that we all hold so dear.
Thank you.

I also agree with cts258. I wonder how making every one equal would hurt any one.

Good points for sure CTS. One correction though. It's not the state dept.'s of wildlife that is controling the allocation of fish, it is the Federal Gov. via the NMFS that is wrongfully interpreting the Treaties and allowing the Indians unfair take of more fish than us, which is outside of Treaty manifest. They have sued the Fed.s on our behalf due to the gross unfairness and unlawfullness. However, I would think that the states, along with Fed. help if obtainable, can certainly do a better job of policing the blatant fishing law breaking going on by some tribal members and also some non-Indians. - RT

[smilesforu]

One of the biggest problems we have to keep the compliance to the agreements (treaties) is we cannot sue the tribe to enforce the agreement. Because the tribes are separate nations they have diplomatic immunity concerning the fishing and hunting issues.
This is a federal problem and our states seem reluctant to step up and fight for our equal share. Mainly due to there past failures in court.
The next problem is the fact that commercial fishermen are a higher priority than the sportfishermen on the political scene. The indian fishermen that sell there fish should be considered commercial and not be treated the same as indians who harvest for traditional needs. Greed runs rampant on both sides of the treaties. The reluctance to change is traced back to greed on all parts. Don't let the tradition issues fool you into overlooking the greed.
Of course there are lots of issues and political stances that murk the waters. We need one land one people.
RT if your on the peninsula again you should drive into some of the reservations and see what type of conditions actually exist there.
It is quite sad to see the poverty on some of the tribal lands. To remove the only income(netting commercially) from the indians would be a injustice with out a lot of help in their change. This will take action from a powerful political source...such as the White house. It is truly time for a change in the way of life for the indians on the reservations. Opportunities need to be made to change the status quo on the reservations.

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

Sad, Sad, Sad, Sad. My statement is this: ta hell with treaty rights because this is the United States of America. The only rights they should have to protect them should be the same rights that protect you and I, without any extra perks. It's total BS, and you can call me racist, but it will just roll like water off a duck's back to me because I will just call you a "greener or tree huggin' politically correct hippy" in retaliation...lol "I know you are, but what am I?"..lol If they are so damned concerned about protecting their "heritage" and "identity" then they should fork over the gas motors and hit the hatcheries with canoes or whatever the hell it was their ancestors used. I am not saying that they should trade in their Levi's, FUBU clothes, NIKE Air Jordans, or their dreadlocks by any means, I am just saying "why not revert back to your ancestoral technology?" So tired of hearing minorities ***** and moan about always being "owed" something, even if it only comes from the mouth of a "few bad apples." Someone tell me exactly what numeric number could describe the word "few"? Thanks. That's what I thought. What happened to Timberman is total BS and probably 1/100 stories each day that get voiced. Look I am not bashing minorities, look sure you may grow up in ghettos or whatever, but it's only up to you to better your OWN life because it sure isn't my responsibility. They are ****** their heritage from what I have seen, but it seems their philosophy is "if we can't have it, then no one can." It's a total lack of testicular fortitude on our voted politicians to stand up for the outdoorsman because folks, it's getting worse before it gets better. Yeah sorry for the harshness, but coming back from surgery and reading about Timberman's experience, it has all caught me in a bad bad bad mood. And then to find out that we can't keep any upcoming Kings in the Cowlitz really really has me mad too...lol grrrr..lol Check out the UCLA game and remember .....
Roll Tide

[KrystalFlash]

All I have to say is.....

STOP GLOBAL WHINING!!!!
And make a difference.
There are people who do nothing but whine and make things difficult, then there are those who make a difference.
Take action. Not violent, but effective action. Whatever it may be. Don't add difficulty to the situation.....propose a solution.
This situation is horrible. The tribes are wrong...period. They are infringing on our rights. They are ****** our natural resources. They MUST be held accountable. They MUST be subject to the same laws and restrictions that we are.
Until this happens, the situation will not improve.
It is not Racist to be upset about this.
It has NOTHING to do with RACE. It has EVERYTHING to do with LAW.
I think that the way we are dealing with it now is WRONG.
That is the issue to me. Point blank... it is WRONG.
Something must be done. I challenge all of us to make a difference.
Write your congressman. Take videos, pictures, Be tactful. Offer suggestions and possible solutions. Be positive. DO NOT WHINE. That makes us look just as bad as them.
I get as irritated about this as anyone, but believe me, agression is NOT the solution, as much as we would like it to be.

[This message has been edited by KrystalFlash (edited 08-30-2000).]

I'm bringing this thread back up near the top to make it easier to find. I've invited Letty Potter, of the Quinalt Indian Tribe, to post the Indian position on this and opinions on other issues about Treaty fishing rights. - RT

[Trick]

I look forward to hearing from her on this. I'm sure she can give us deep insight on this heated topic. Thanks RT and everyone else for posting your sides on this issue. It causes one to think about all possible views and you realize that your personal view is not gospel by any means.

[potter]

Sometimes analogies are the best way to bring home a point, especially to a group who have a different background. I will try to explain a tribal perspective of why the Indians should get to catch 1/2 of the harvestable fish using a comparison.

George Weyerhaeuser owns a lot of land in the Northwest. Suppose the Government approached George and told him to sign a document that would leave him owning 10 acres. If he didn't sign he would lose all his land. However, if he did sign he would be able to harvest 1/2 the trees on the land he signed over.

100 years later, the citizens are sharing the harvest from 1/2 of the trees from the land George signed over. Do the great-grandchildren of George have a right to the other 1/2 of the trees?

The second most brought up issue by non-tribal fishers is the use of gill nets. Gill nets do not know the difference between hatchery and depressed wild fish runs. As stated before in other posts, mesh size, timing, real-time catch-sampling are management tool used by tribes to limit non-target species. Remember there is a large number of sport fishermen and with a release mortality rate of 5 to 10 percent depending on species and gear, there will be a significant number of dead wild fish from sport fishing as well. I think it is important to minimize the catch of depressed runs. This can be done. As I stated on Bob's BB before, I guide behind 20 to 60 nets that fish year around. We have a healthy wild steelhead run after both sport fishing and net fishing. Our nets reduce the number of days they fish as they start catching wild fish. The catch is examined for hatchery contribution weekly.

I also stated on Bob's board in several posts the need for enforcement dollars. I think this is important.

I don't feel that it is racial to bring up illegal activity. I have read about illegal activity on all sides on these boards. I do think that we need to find out the facts before we just start typing though. Jim Bain on Bob's board gives us an excellent example of pursuing the facts.

Thanks, Letty

Hi Letty. Thanks so much for your input. It will always be a welcomed value to our BB to hear your insight and honest opinions. You are a class person that tries to minimize the racial aspects of the netting issues and maximize the wild fish aspects. Right on! Hope you'll check in to read our posts from time to time and post your thoughts. Take care. - Steve (RT)

[smilesforu]

Letty
Thanks for the post. My big concern with nets or mortality from sporties is the weak runs that overlap with the strong runs of fish. These weak runs become a bykill of the fishery since the nets don't know the difference. This may not be a problem on the Quinalt but it sure hits home on the many other systems for some early native runs that have been intercepted by nets and sporties. One bad net set or a really uncaring sporty can really damage a sensitive run. I think the new tooth nets would really be the answer along with other selective fishing methods (fish traps, wheels and enforcement). Our biologists along with yours have not taken into account the lean years for returning fish causing our returning fish to go on the steady decline. The escapement numbers need to be increased and the harvestable fish levels decreased until we have a solid fishery again....but you have that already on the Quinalt We all need to error to the side of to many fish instead of who gets that one!!
Tight Lines

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Marty M
Steelheader.net

[Slider]

Letty,

It is good to have you posting on this board. Diverse interest groups can only enhance the valuability of this site. You have touched upon many things I have in the past (and was ridiculed for), so I am happy to have some verability behind my posts.

The tooth nets have started test fishing in the Columbia as of this week. I am not sure as of the Willapa, I think it started this week but it might be next week. You are correct as to the potential value of the tooth nets (something I posted a couple months ago). The mortality rate can be exceptionally low. The Canadians have done extensive test fishing with this type of gear and have mortalities equal to or less than traditional sport gear. This could be a great big step in the right direction.

Slider

[happybrew]

I don't think it's racist in and of itself to criticize tribal fishing, but it should be done with some sensitivity to avoid giving the impression of racism. The tribes are sovereign governments whom we have treaties with. We don't have to like the treaties, but we do have to abide by them, which is something that hasn't been done in the past. I think that showing goodwill in this regard now will reap benefits in the future, even if in the short run it limits sport angling opportunities.

As far as accusations of racism go, let me relate a story to you. I am Hispanic, but I don't look Hispanic. I speak Spanish, although not very well. One of my waitresses is also Hispanic, but doesn't look it. Her father lives in Mexico. The town our restaurant is in has a large Hispanic population, and probably a quarter of our customers are Hispanic. These are people who come into our restaurant every week, sometimes every day. I have watched their children growing up from infancy. I know them by name. Obviously, they feel welcome there. One day about a year ago, we had some new customers come in, and we did our best to help them. We smiled, took the order, tried to make conversation with them, but got only scowls in return. No problem, not everyone is a happy camper, we'll just try to make their day a little easier. After they left, I took a phone call from a member of the party, complaining of discrimination because they were Hispanic! They said that we were rude to them, avoided them, didn't refill their beverages, let the food sit in the window for ten minutes before taking it out to them, etc., and they were going to complain to company headquarters and anyone else who would listen. None of it was true. I had refilled their beverages three times, I personally watched the food go out the window in less than a minute after it was up, and we made a genuine effort to make them feel at home, and to try to build a relationship with them because it makes work more enjoyable and increases our business. I also have no doubt that they believed every word they said. It's a matter of perception. If the waitress and I didn't look white, everything would have been fine. They have probably experienced discrimination in the past, and simply expected more of it. Their perceptions were colored by their expectations. I don't know how many times I have heard people making racist comments to me about "those d*** Mexicans", not realizing that I am one of those "d*** Mexicans". I have also had people accuse me a racism, simply because they didn't like the fact that I look white. They have experienced racism, and it changes the way they look at the world.

There is only one way to end this problem, and that is to end racism. Are there false accusations of racism? You bet! But only because people have experienced it, come to expect it, and change the way they perceive things based on that expectation.

I think we should approach the issue of tribal fishing by giving them the benefit of the doubt. By showing goodwill now, even in the face of abuses, perhaps in the future goodwill will be shown to sport anglers. Make them our partners, not our enemies. The best way to avoid conflict is to make friends. Sometimes this is hard, but it is necessary.

happybrew

Slider, I was one who questioned the tooth tangle nets because it was promoted as an answer before enough data from testing was in. Hearing of their effectiveness in terms of selective capture from a reliable source such as Letty changes my perspective. I still would like to see any netting allowed by tooth snagging to be done just upriver of a large percentage of sportangler areas. Being a driftboat fishing guide, I think Letty might agree with that. She has expressed some frustration about the netting going on near the lower ends of the rivers that negatively affect the sportfishing success. Way more fish get by sportfishers than get by nets, and the fish will be in plenty marketable fresh condition just above some of the boating sections. Same for the Columbia. - Letty? - HB, I agree with much of what you say in your above post. However, you have given a very clear example that many minority people play up the "victim" role beyond the real facts, and that's unfortunately hurting their cause when they do that reverse type of racism card playing. When they are truely descriminated against that's flatout unethical; and illegal! - RT

[potter]

RT, My frustrations with the nets are really not with the location. The river is 33 miles long on rez and the nets are limited to the lower 7 miles. My frustrations are more with the limits on surplus fish that get past the nets and closed areas. Each year truck loads of fish are dumped. We are now starting to "Plant" these carcasses is some areas but more effort is needed on this. Thanks, letty

[This message has been edited by potter (edited 09-13-2000).]

[dusty4]

Deciding how to divide the fish harvest, based on the harvestors ethnic origin, is a racist policy.

[garyk]

Dusty4 -- I respectfully suggest you brush up on your history before submitting such statements. The allocations aren't based on ethnicity but rather according to treaties (contracts) between your Federal government and the Indian nations.

The Indians didn't get any kind of 'sweet deal' via these treaties. These were often negociated at gun point and elsewhere would have been called 'articles of surrender'.

Garyk, I agree with your post above. However, it raises a very interesting question indeed! Aren't contracts that were signed under forced duress now invalid by law?? The answer just might open a can of worms that neither side would want to jump into! If the Federal Courts established the truthful answer to that question, the U.S. could claim that the Treaties are invalid and revoke special Indian rights; fishing included. Of course the Indain lawyers would counter that in that event they now own much of the land in the Northwest (and elsewhere). Yikes! On the otherhand again, the U.S. could credibly counter that at the time of the Treaty signings the law of the land (and of the whole world in fact) was both "survival of the fittest" and "to the victors goes the spoils". The Indians surely lived by those rules in during most of their history, fraught with wars over land aquisition (one tribal nation vs another tribal nation). Right up to and during the Treay era. Any lawyers out there want to take a crack at that one? - RT

[garyk]

RT,
Welcome back. I do appreciate your throughtful and even-handed moderation.

The 'duress' question is an interesting strategem but as proposed is fatally flawed. Only the party to whom duress is applied (First Nations in this case) could make the complaint.

Otherwise, as you have proposed, the duressor could force a bad contract, use its advantages, and then later claim its invalid and be back at square one (to again apply duress and being the cycle anew).

Back to the point, First Nations were given precious little then, and would have nothing to gain and all to lose by abandoning or re-negociating the treaties now.

[dusty4]

I have never pointed a gun at anyone. I would prefer that those who are weighed down by the sins of others would offer themselves as an attoning sacrifice, rather than volonteering me, and future generations. One of the many sad facts of war, is that somebody loses.

Good points Garyk, and my oversight. Whew! - Dusty, I think I know where you're coming from but please clarify "those weighed down by the sins of others should offer themselves as sacrifices for attonement". I understand and agree that you and I should not have to suffer from the Gov. trying to make a right with another wrong. Remember the truthful wisdom. - Also let me re-state what this is mostly about here: Even though I don't like the 50/50 court interpretations of the Treaties, I can accept and live with them IF it simply cannot be changed to properly fit the times. What I can't accept is the Indians getting MORE than negotiated for in the Treaties and then ruled for by Fed. Court interpretation! And that it is not racism to address wrongful Indian fishing activities. - RT

[This message has been edited by RT (edited 09-14-2000).]

[dusty4]

RT-- What I mean is, let those who choose to feel guilty for unjust actions of generations past cough up, or relinquish whatever rights they want, if it makes them feel better. But please, I don't share thier pain, so stay out of my pockets. And of course, your critizing Indian fishing rights is racist. But I don't see how you can avoid that, since these special rights are race based. Glad you got to make a trip up to my old home-- still miss it, except for winter. Did you know Skeena is an Indian word that translates loosely as, "Winter Here Sucks the Big One"?

Small correction with a big difference Dusty. I am not critisizing Indian fishing rights; I'm critisizing Indian fishing wrongs. Not racist! - Hey, I thought Skeena meant "Summer here lands the big ones".

[potter]

I heard that the tangle-tooth net is being tried on the Willapa now. Has anyone heard of the results yet or is it too early? I think that if this works (depressed stocks live after being released) everyone wins. The Queets tribal fishermen have a very low harvest rate on the hatchery coho due to a concern for the wild fish. This type of net along with mass marking of hatchery coho would allow the fishermen to have a higher harvest rate on a target species. I know I hate to see truckloads of surplus hatchery fish dumped at the end of the road.

[dusty4]

I stand humbely corrected, and in complete agreement on all counts! One of the most sickening sites I have ever witnessed was a net full of rotting coho in the Kispiox. And a smokehouse full of rotting fish on a reserve on the Bulkley. And Indians selling netted fish along the road, illegally for $.50 each. And salmon floating down the Bulkley, thier bellies ripped out by a gaff hook. And nobody is ever held accountable.

Here's some sick white-guy things that I have either witnessed or heard about:

1) Guy I was fishing with brought his son, who went up the creek quicker than we did. He landed a silver, slit it's belly, found it to be a male, and left it there to rot. No remorse, even after we laid into him bigtime. Never fished with him again.

2) Bear Creek (over near Astoria) had an entire run of Fall chinook almost completely decimated when guys came in one night with clubs and nailed the fish as they came through the shallows. Took the eggs, left all to rot. Creek was closed for years afterwards.

3) Eagle Creek poisoned by the ODFW to kill off a run of chinook salmon that their hatchery no longer could afford to maintain.

Crimes against nature are committed by people regardless of the color of their skin. And no matter who does it, it's wrong.

To me it is more shocking when I hear of people native to this area (I have a hard time calling them Native Americans, as this wasn't America before the Europeans got here IMO) wasting fish in these ways mentioned above. I have read some about their culture and they never took more than they needed, as this was deemed disrespectful to the fishes spirit. Land ownership didn't exist in their culture, either. Sure, they had territories that they roamed for feeding and such but local tribes seldom fought over them.

It's sad to think that the European evils of ****** the natural resources have rubbed off on those who we could have learned a lot from.

And for the record, I'm Scottish-Italian.

Felt so strongly that I posted it twice.

[This message has been edited by fobbman (edited 09-14-2000).]

Hey fobb, I feel your pain! But I think communication here and on Bob's BB may be doing some significant good. Hang in there. BTW, have you wasted any spagetti? My Italian wife always puts any leftover in the fridge no matter how small. And this Scandinavian (mostly Norwegian) always puts any leftover fish in the fridge, no matter how litte is left. (I never waste a drop of ice cream or pizza for sure!). - RT

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

Hey Potter, and any other member(s), Did the ancestors sale their catch out out of the back of horses in those days? Did they have remotely the "means" neccessary to impact a run like they do nowadays? Please, I want someone to educate me in that aspect. Another point I would like to make without sounding "racist" is what if this wasn't the United States of America? Think about it. Do you think Ghangis Kahn (spelling) gave a crap about the repercussions of the people he invaded? I seriously doubt it. Personally, I think the people who stood in the way would have been very happy to be able to have fishing rights and such. Now, I am sure, in defense, you could argue that it's harsh to say that because the treaties regarding limits and netting dates, etc were signed in a recent timewise fashion, and that you had 0% when we invaded,etc. Also, you could say that 50% is a small number compared to the 100% that you had before (I say you, as in ancestors). In all actuality, there never was a 100% because there wouldn't be any returning salmon. People get wronged in life everyday, and throughout history people have been wronged by invading nations. I think personally I would be very happy if I was allowed 50% instead of 0%. The United States has always and will always be a country with a conscious it seems. We go kick the poo out of someone (as in a country or such) and then we give them retribution, supplies, $$$, etc. Oh it's true. It's true. Anyways, people have had their lands taken, their homes destroyed, their families split apart through the test of time. I think it's the victim(s)' responsibility to better their own life. Ya know better themselves first, then they can better help a larger group. Education, then get established, then give back to your community. I am sorry, but in my opinion, The Nations have lost their identity, but still want to be regarded by a past identity. I have Indian ancestoral lines so do not call me racist, but rather applaud me for just opening up a debate if you will. I respect any and all replies, whether they be "pro" or "con". I do not believe the white man is to blame for a loss of identity, but rather what is in a person's mind, body, and spirit makes up their identity. If there ever will be any agreements between Indians and sportfishermen, then might I suggest that the Indians post information to a website where a sportfishermen can check to see when and where the nets will be? It could be a law if you will, plus, I think it could ease alot of tension for a sportfisherman if he knows what he's up against before he goes beforehand.

[dusty4]

I think in all fairness, we need to hear about Indian participation in salmonoid enhancement/recovery. If anyone has info to share on this, we would probably all find it enlightening. Thanks.

[potter]

dusty4, check out this addy: http://www.nwifc.wa.gov/

Hey_yall, I agree shared info will help everyone. The Hoh tribe has posted their schedule on the net I believe. I think more tribes will follow suit as they develop more web pages. Maybe WDFW could post the fishing agreements state/tribal managers have set???

Coastal tribes didn't have horses. The short answer would be no. However, fish were the life blood of these tribes and were traded to inland tribes for other items. Yes, fish were as good as "money."

It is lacking in many areas. But not in others. One great example of helping enhance fish runs is that of the Quinalt Tribe (Letty Potter is a member) on the Oly Pen. They have one of the most succesful hatchery programs in the NW. They get great return runs of salmon & steelhead. I think they also keep the genetics indiginous by using only Quinalt R. fish. They are a model that I wish other hatcheries would follow. However, they charge non-tribal people a lot of money to fish that river, and only with Tribal guides. Most other NW Indian fish take are from Gov. sponsered hatcheries (more free ride), in addition to declining nates (native fish). - RT

[potter]

RT, The non-tribal fishermen who don't want to hire a guide can also benefit from tribal hatcheries on the Queets River from river mile 7.0 to 10.0, Salmon River from river mile 0.0 to 1.4, and 2.6 to 3.2. The upper Quinault for steelhead and the Humptulips for hatchery steelhead. Wild coho enhancement on the Clearwater and Queets river. Cook Creek hatchery fish are planted in the Hoh system. And of course, the ocean fishery.
oops, forgot the Ocean Shores marina's net pens

[This message has been edited by potter (edited 09-14-2000).]

[This message has been edited by potter (edited 09-14-2000).]

Thanks Letty. Kudos for the Quinalts! I just wish that most other Tribes contributed as your people do. And I wish our Gov. run hatcheries had used some of your technologies long ago. They are improving however. - Again, you have my total agreement that we need more dollars for finclipping hats and for law enforcement of non-Indian and Indian fisheries! What other ideas do you have for better protecting of native fish stocks from netters and sportfishers? - RT

[Trick]

I can't help but feel empathy for the crimes that were commited by past generations against the Indian nation, Africans, Jewish, and all other nations that were *****, robbed, and defeated. My heritage is a "melting pot" of many different races. Like I've stated in past posts my great-grandmother was a Cherokee off my mothers side and my fathers line dates back to pre-war Germany. My wifes grandmother is a Canadian Mohican on her mothers side and italian off her fathers side and I would be willing to bet that many of you would be included in this melting pot. Of course the amount of "indian blood" that runs my veins is very small at this point and I don't feel connected to my distant ancestors, call me cold. My past ancestors were also slave owners from Missouri and I don't feel responsible for that either, nor the fact that Hitler lead Germans to slaughter millions and I'm sure I have distant relatives from Germany that took place in these crimes. So I could play both sides of the fence, but why would anyone want to waste thier efforts crying over the past. I love to live in a nation that now provides me with the freedoms that I desire and the oppurtunity to prosper. I don't like the crimes that were bestowed upon members of my "Indian ancestors" and I'm ashamed to know that my family took place in the slavery trade and I know this isn't a perfect nation, but I can't think of another nation that I would rather be a citizen of and I would defend it to my death if need be.

I'm convinced at some point in the distant future we will all be a light brown color and tracing ones heritage will be impossible nor will anybody really care too. No more racism, no more treaties, no more worrying about what group gets what and when. What a great world this would be.

We are all "Greedy" by nature and I would bet that you all have closets, sheds and garages full of crap that you bought but really didn't need? Are any of us starving so bad that we really need to hunt and fish to survive? No, we fish and hunt because we want to and because we can. We buy things we don't really need because we want to and because we can. Indians are just like us. They do things they want to and the treaties and rulings say they can, so they will. Who can blame any of us for being human.

Sure, the past has shaped all of us and it is what has brought us to this point in time. We need to do what is best for the enviroment, what is best for preserving our resources, what is best for our children and I don't feel like a divided nation will ever work with the built in "Greed Factor". Hopefully we can find a peaceful resolution to satisfy both sides oneday.


I'm done preaching and I need to get to bed! Got to get up early to go silver fishing. No I'm not starving, I'm just GREEDY!!!!!!

[potter]

RT, A few years back, 80% of Queets coho were caught by Canadian trollers. I don't have the current rate but I'm sure that had an impact on one of the most depressed stocks in Washington. Inter-national agreements on fishing should be carefully watched. I also think we will see ocean survival rebound and that will help. Check out todays catch: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Ra...765/index.html
under river reports
gotta get a plug in for all this hard thinking Just kidding, salmon fishing is all booked up

Great post TS! I am sure that, as with all races now, those light brown single race of humans in the distant future will have plenty of both good/fair people and bad/unfair people. That aludes to the original subject of this thread; critisizing wrongful activity (in this case reported Indian fishing activity) is not racist. Addressing the wrongs of "white-trash slobs" who litter and keep snagged fish (as in other posts) is also not racist. They are both just anti-wrongness! Many people have a difficult time recognizing this; seemingly, particularly members of minorities who unreasonably play the victim game. - RT

[Okiedrifter]

hey gang,, good post t.s. ur right i dont need to hunt out of need, but i do really have to admitt, thier is a blood lust to the sport i cant deny.. i mean thier is somthing that comes over me at times that i call the ( me hunt good, i kill food ,i good provider ) syndrom..espeacialy when the leaves start to turn...i need to squelch this feeling at times and want my children to have the same oppertunity..so i hate the nets perioid, dont much care what the skin color, but treaty laws from a 120 yrs. ago need to be readdressed.


------------------
okiedrifter

[Crusty]

Am I the only person in the world offended by the title "Native American"?

native american, a person born in the United States...Random House unabridged

Native American (note caps), Indian...loc cite

That is ridiculous.

"First Nation" is better. Although "Previous Nation" is probably more accurate when speakng of the people extant upon the arrival of the Europeans.

I always check "Native American" on the Census form.

Crusty

[dusty4]

Potter-thanks for sharing the info I requested-- most educational. RT-- I prefer German cars, French wine, Canadian whiskey, Italian leather, and American tools. The only Russian item I like is vodka, and refer to most Chinese manufactured items as crap. If you are racist for your critisims, I am in serious trouble.

[dusty4]

OK, I'm really mad now! It has just occured to me that the big "no smoking" gig going on these days is just a racist plot to end the last widely practiced shred of Indian culture!!! I'm going for a smoke.....