Lure mfg should go barbless in the NW

[corkyking]

Lure manufacturers should go barbless in the NW.

Several have started putting siwash hooks on their products now if we could only convince them to take the next step........

I don't think that I can tell the difference but I'm sure the fish can.

There's not even a very good source of barbless that I can find by the package.

[Fishin Magician]

VMC and Gamakatsu have a fairly decent line of barbless hooks. Try GI Joes.

[GOT2FISH]

How about pinching the barb down with a pair of neddle nose pliers ?

[Silver Hilton]

I don't think the fish are going to care about any difference between a Gami that was made barbless and one that has the barb pinched down.

[ampersat]

It doesn't really matter what hooks they put on the lure because most folks are going to swap them out for their own quality hooks.

Think the fish mind the barbs on the hooks? Then I'll bet they really hate the "wood shampoo".

[Ty]

What is wrong with pliers? Studies have shown inconclusive on teh issue and there has been many...

I am a barbless man fer many reasons, the most important is my own safty!

And most importantly the bigger hook, the more important the barb-go-byebye!

[Dinikin]

Also the fast acting pain killer tablet on each point. :smile:

But seriously, I have found that pinching the barb off, makes a diffirence. It is easier to remove, but it still have some mini bard left for some hold.

[Straydog]

Barbless hooks can dig deeper than barbed creating a longer wound cavity and in some cases entering the fishes head through the mouth. There are those that say barbless hooks do as much or more damage than barbed.

Barbed are certainly harder to remove but I have read mixed opinions on whether or not the overall mortality is affected. In fact, it was this questioning that led Oregon to remove the barbless regulation in many streams a few years back.

I don't know the answers, just offering another point of view.

[ 01-27-2004, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Pitch Pocket]

Why not compromise? Pinch or file the barbs halfway. You'd get better penetration and you still have the security of the barb to keep the hook from backing out.

[corkyking]

Besides being easier on the fish (all ridiculous arguments to the contrary aside), I find that it doesn't take a great deal more skill to land a fish. I don't believe that I am a better fisherman than most and I just don't have a problem sans barb.

Besides, all these barbed comments aside, I can get them out of my shirt pocket easier.

[SailCat]

Those "ridiculous arguments to the contrary" may not support your position, corkyking, but the studies to which Straydog refers have in fact been conducted and the results were not fallacious.

It is logical that a hook without a barb would penetrate more deeply and it is a fact that such a hook in actual use does, on occasion, penetrate the brain of the fish.

That these studies were conducted in part by the ODFW was the reason for the change in barbless restrictions for most species and waters in Oregon. I wrote about it at the time in a couple of publications, but that was several years ago.

I hope this serves to clarify and offer balance.

~MT
The Guide's Forecast

[Straydog]

Sailcat,

Thanks for the post.

If only more would actually educate themselves we could all do more for the benefit of our fisheries.

[ 01-28-2004, 07:48 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[HarpMan]

Corkyking,

Your crazy....

[freespool]

Remember the sled fishing up at the base of the falls on the Willamette? It had a big sign on the side that read research. I think it was there 3 or 4 years. That was part of the C&R hook mortality study that was done by ODFW. This issue was looked at and studied quite extensivly by dozens of ODFW staff over many years. And as pointed out by Straydog,the facts are the facts.


salmon hugger

[sparkleboy]

If you're concerned about releasing a fish that has deeply swallowed a hook, or you are having difficultly removing a hook from a fishes mouth, consider this.
Just cut your line and leave your lure or hook in the mouth of the fish. I can understand you'd be concerned about this if you're regarding expensive lures such as salmon spinners or Kwikfish, but if you're dealing with small spinners, spoons, single hooks, and jigs, just cut the line. Fish produce a chemical which can break down metal products in a matter of days.
I especially use this technique when I am dealing with wild fish. I give myself about five seconds to get the lure out with my fingers or pliers, and after that, it's a cut of the line. The less stress a fish experiences, the better chance it will have to survive.

[Mojo]

The ODFW studies say barbs don't affect released fish mortality. I know it is easier to release a fish hanging on a barbless hook. 35 years of experience tell me that. However the key reason the lure manufacturers should go barbless is fishing barbless is the law in many places . While they are at it, they ought to put quality hooks on their lures. If I'm looking at lures on the shelf, and there are two similar plugs, color the same, and one has barbless Owners or Gammies, I'm buying it. It is the law to use barbless, and if it is easier for me and costs me a few extra bucks for quality, I'm in.

[ 01-28-2004, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Mojo ]

[sparkleboy]

Originally posted by Mojo:
However the key reason the lure manufacturers should go barbless is it's the law .

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">:whazzup:
Obviously lure manufacturers are getting away with a lot of law breaking. What law are you referring to?

It is the law to use barbless

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Not on every stream, it isn't.

[ 01-28-2004, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: sparkleboy ]

[blacktail]

I can buy that in some cases a barbless hook could do more damage than a barbed hook due to deeper penetration. However, I can also see where barbed hooks could be worse.

Think of the people that take the extra time and "effort" to get that barbed hook out of the fish when a barbless hook could have been slipped out of it easier. This can lead to the fish being out of the water longer and also more damage and bleeding trying to get the barbed hook(s)out.

Mike

[corkyking]

I am willling to buy into your assertion that USFW and WDFW don't know what they're talking about when they go to a barbless fishery. I'm further willing to believe that there are a lot more areas where they are talking through their hats.

But back to the issue at hand. A real big part of the fishing regs establishes a barbless fishery. Some enlightened companies like Blue Fox have started putting a Siwash hook in the package so that the customer has a choice. Other companies have just gone to straight Siwash. When I buy a lure that comes that way I like to believe that some research has gone into it and it is the correct hook for the lure. I would like to see them go the extra step and make the Siwashs barbless. In addition I would like to see hooks in the style and sizes and colors that I use also be barbless.

I know that none of you ever foul-hooks a fish but I occasionally do. I like to just reach down and pop the hook loose or sometimes just give it a shake. I could just cut the line but I hate to see those fish swimming around with lures ao corkies hanging off of them. It offends my delicate sensibilities.

I ended up at the Cathlamet boat launch last night. To pass the time I spent some time tying rigs. In order to be sure that I am legal I had to pinch all the barbs. I'm sure that you would never forget that some of your hooks were not pinched but I had to pay a $40 fine this year because I didn't pay attention.

Give me reasons other than brain damage for barbed hooks. They apparent fact that barbless hooks sink deeper into the fish only supports my contention that they are worth using.

[willierower]

Here is a novel idea!! If you think barbless do less harm to the fish then go this route. Quit fishing!! That way you do no harm to any fish!!! Simple solution!!

No for you guys that go barbless to get better hook penetration. All you need to do is set down your purse and set the hook a little harder!!! Or get rid of the limp willow stick and get a rod thar can do the job!!!

Now on the serious side. The onl;y time I go barbless is when I doing the C&R thing on smaller fish. Barbed hooks dont do anymore damage then barless hook. Most hook damage on a fish occurs because of prolonged fights with the fish. The longer you have the fish on the bigger the hook hole gets.............

[The Bloodletter]

I'm with Willierower. Barbs hold better and I don't much care what fish think. I'm higher on the food chain. Besides, if you stick a gill, barbless or not, they're in bad shape.

[Salmonator]

Originally posted by Mojo:
However the key reason the lure manufacturers should go barbless is it's the law

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Which law are you referring to?

[Mojo]

I don't live in Oregon. In Idaho it illegal to fish for Salmon or Steelhead with a barbed hook. Washington has the same rule, I believe. The Snake River is limited to Barbless only (even if you are fishing from the Oregon Shore). British Columbia is single point, barbless only (all over the province). It is the law in may places... sorry I mis-spoke.

[ampersat]

As far as I know, the barbless restriction is for specific fisheries, not statewide, Washington or Oregon.

If it's not a law, then they can hang keychains on lures as far as I'm concerned. I'm going to replace the hooks on most lures anyway. That's why there's a split ring there.

What you're really saying, Corky, is that it should be a law. If you want people to fish with barbless hooks, it has to be a law. It doesn't matter what hooks, if any, manufacturers put on their lures.

[Mojo]

Ampersat you make a really good point.

If the manufacturers put quality barbless hooks on their lures, and someone is fishing water where it's legal to use barbed hooks, the individual can replace the barbless with their choice of barbed hook. I'd be happy if the lure manufacturers would package their lures with 2 options; barbed, and barbless hooks, give us comsumers a choice. I am not against everyone using barbed hooks in the waters where they are legal. I like barbless, and I'm lazy. I just want to be able to buy quality barbless hook-rigged lures.

[Salmonator]

yes, lets sell all lures as barbless and make the majority go buy new hooks as opposed to selling them with barbs and letting the minority spend 10 seconds mashing them down with pliers [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img]

[Paddlefish]

I revised my fly tying procedure many years ago:

Step 1 became: "Squeeze down barb."

To be honest, I can't say that I've noticed a difference between the fish that that I lose now vs. the fish that I used to lose previously.

(Be advised: this is a VERY limited sampling. )

As for all the rest of my gear, I've just been using "off the shelf."

I may reconsider, however, after all the fun I had removing a barbed treble from a 10-year-old last summer. :depressed:

[corkyking]

What I'm saying is that, anywhere in the world if fishing is allowed, I'm going to be OK with a single barbless hook. ( OK OK there has to be an exception somewhere)

If you catch fish regularly with barbed hooks but can't catch a fish with a barbless hook then you're only a little bit of technique away.

If you fish in fishy places and don't catch fish then you have a little more work to do.

All this constructive discussion has convinced me that, rather than just talk about, I should DEMAND that my feelings should be taken into account. Dad Gumit!!

[corkyking]

[ 01-28-2004, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: corkyking ]

[Quasimodo the fish killer]

I would guess that the majority of people choose to fish with barbed hooks so thats why they keep building them with barbed hooks.

just because you or I fish with or with out barbs doesnt mean everyone should or has to.

we choose to crimp the barbs its not a law.

big companies are going to make lures for the greatest percentage of the fishing public untill the greatest percentage is in favor of barbless hooks yer gonna have to carry your pliers.

Quasi

[Firedog]

If it is damage to the fish you are concerned about I wouldn't be using Siwash's. They hook deeper and get the gills and eyes more often than a treble does. We switched to siwash's a few seasons ago(2001), hooked a little over 100 springers that season for the boat. Siwash's did way more damage than trebles. Went back to trebles, just so the natives had a better chance.

I pinch the barbs on the my trebles sometimes, sometimes I don't. Does make releasing fish easier but it doesn't apear to do more or less damage to the fish. Barbless come out of the net a lot easier though, when you catch a keeper. We don't net natives, they get released in the water.

[Uglygreen]

If the manufacturers put quality barbless hooks on their lures, and someone is fishing water where it's legal to use barbed hooks, the individual can replace the barbless with their choice of barbed hook. I'd be happy if the lure manufacturers would package their lures with 2 options; barbed, and barbless hooks, give us comsumers a choice. I am not against everyone using barbed hooks in the waters where they are legal. I like barbless, and I'm lazy. I just want to be able to buy quality barbless hook-rigged lures.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">

Yeah (sarcastic) lets make every lure cost more to include several different kinds of hooks in the package in order to fix a problem that:

1) Isn't really a problem, and

2) Can be fixed in 2 seconds with a pair of pliers if it was a problem.



UG

[ 01-28-2004, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: Uglygreen ]

[Straydog]

Originally posted by Quasimodo the fish killer:

big companies are going to make lures for the greatest percentage of the fishing public untill the greatest percentage is in favor of barbless hooks yer gonna have to carry your pliers.

Quasi

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Bingo!

Look at a map of the US. Now look at how much geography the NW takes up in the big picture. It dosen't make sense for them to produce specificaly for the Northwest if they are a large, national or international company.

I have accounts that carry both barbed and barbless and their sales are 10 to 1, conservativly, barbed.

[Jignfloat]

I think the manufacturers try for the middle of the road as far as hooks are concerned. THey know from experience that most anglers put their own special secret favorite hooks on their plugs etc. All the guys I fish with replace hooks, and it seems to be more the norm than the exception. Russ

[Dinikin]

Lets say someone is fishing a spinn and glo with a single barbless hook. Got some scent and maybee a fresh shrimp. And of course that person is targetting a springer run(when permitted). But lands a sturgeon. Can sturgeon be kept. I have read Oregon rules and could not find a reason why not. Whad do you think. ????

[Mojo]

UG, I don't think they have to put both hooks in the same package, just start offerring the choice of Barbed or barbless. Also it isn't really the barbed or barbless that bothers me. I can and do pinch the barbs. It just burns me when you pinch the barb on a $5.00 spinner and the hook snaps. Happened twice last fall to me. That's $10.00 down the tube on lures I never got to fish.

[corkyking]

"A fishing rod is a stick with a hook at one end and a fool at the other."
Samuel Johnson (1709 - 1784)

I started fishing barbless about 15 years ago right after my wife short-looped her cast and then had to soak her hand in the stream until cold enough for me to push the hookpoint through and cut it off. I thought about just pinching the barb and backing it out to save the fly but thought better of it.

When fishing for Walleye in Lake Roosevelt, I find that the barbless trebles on my "Long A" are much easier to get out of the fish and me since I fish in the dark. (it may seem that I am always in the dark but I assure you that I am not!!)

Much much easier to get the hooks out of everything including the fish.

I can't think of a single reason to use barbs unless I am frog gigging, commercial fishing or in a tournament.

[Firedog]

Dinkin, if you catch a sturgeon on a barbed hook it has to be released.

[Blue Tip Spinner]

i'm with salmonator- WHICH LAW???????????? i go through and read the regs every year, cover to cover. there is NO broad oregon law that states you have to use barbless hooks on all species. there are some locations that require barbless hooks for certain species, but i don't agree that lure manufacturers should "obey the law" and make lures in barbless. people use the same lures for all sorts of different fish, and by going barbless, that eliminates the lure for certain species. for example, look at rooster tails, i use them for both trout and bass fishing. if i use them for bass, i want the biggest, most barbed rooster tail hook i can find for largemouth bass. if i'm using it exclusively for trout, then the barbs get pinched down. it is that simple. pliers equal no barb... that is why the oregon regulations state that a barbed hook can have the barb pinched down for sturgeon fishing.

[corkyking]

“What is wrong with pliers? Studies have shown inconclusive on teh issue and there has been many...” –TY

“Barbed are certainly harder to remove but I have read mixed opinions on whether or not the overall mortality is affected. In fact, it was this questioning that led Oregon to remove the barbless regulation in many streams a few years back.......”-Straydog

“Those "ridiculous arguments to the contrary" may not support your position, corkyking, but the studies to which Straydog refers have in fact been conducted and the results were not fallacious”-Sailcat

So I did some looking around. I couldn’t find the study to which you refer. Would you please give me a link to it? Thanks.

I did a search of ODFW documents and found the following:

Regulation Review
ODFW Home Page Selected Management Issues

.............current fishing regulations confront anglers with varied rules allowing or prohibiting use of barbed hooks.

Most steelhead fisheries already require barbless hooks.

Regulations also require barbless hooks for all sturgeon angling to avoid unnecessary injury to under and over-sized fish. Salmon and trout hook regulations vary by location.

The department's 1997 proposal seeks rule clarity and improved ability to enforce regulations. This approach requires barbless hooks for almost all fishing in running waters.

Barbed hooks could be used only in the Columbia River, the Willamette River below the falls and in tidewater when fishing for marine species.

Lakes and reservoirs would continue with the hook regulations now in place. The barbless hook issue is complex, and will be openly discussed throughout this process. Many river and stream anglers already use barbless hooks, but many do not agree, particularly people fishing for small or largemouth bass, shad and crappie. These anglers ask why they should change their fishing methods. The simplicity of a uniform barbless requirement can affect them and in the view of some; disrupt their sport for no apparent reason..............