Seals at Bonneville

WHO'S BELLS RINGING? · 01-26-2004, 08:09 PM

JUST GOT A REPORT OF AT LEAST 6 SEALIONS AT BON.DAM ALL TOSSING RED MEAT. A HACHERY WORKER SAW THEM JUST THE LAST DAY OR TWO.

[ 01-27-2004, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Pete ]

Thumb Burner · 01-26-2004, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WHO'S BELLS RINGING?:
JUST GOT A REPORT OF AT LEAST 6 SEALIONS AT BON.DAM ALL TOSSING RED MEAT. A HACHERY WORKER SAW THEM JUST THE LAST DAY OR TWO.

Dear Fish and Game,
Everybody else has a quota, what is the SEALS Quota? [img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img]

Blazerboy · 01-26-2004, 08:26 PM

I was up there a couple of weeks ago and saw three sealions eating sturgeon maybe its the same group? I do agree, where is the quota? Maybe someday

Rakkasan · 01-26-2004, 08:48 PM

This is probably going to urk a few people, but what are you going to do about it. Accept it and let them eat. I do not like it either, but I can guarantee you that they were there before us. Like the gillnetters do not do any unessesary fish killing. At least the sea lions are doing it to survive.

Thumb Burner · 01-26-2004, 08:54 PM

Your right about them being there before us. But there was a lot more fish to go around back in the day before man got involve and screwed up the system.

freespool · 01-26-2004, 08:57 PM

Sealions in the area only means one thing,springers are near by. And that is a good thing.

DS is right why fight the impossible fight? Seals are not going away any time soon,so roll with it.

salmon hugger

Rakkasan · 01-26-2004, 08:58 PM

Thumb Burner · 01-26-2004, 09:02 PM

You know it was a joke for fish and game. I am not hot headed about it. I just think its funny that the fish and game gives everyone quota's, maybe the seals need one. Joke get it. [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]
Seriously they cant keep track of how many fish they eat a day.

Silver Hilton · 01-26-2004, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steelhead_Scout:

Seriously they cant keep track of how many fish they eat a day.

No, but I'll bet I could whup up a guess pretty quick.

Let's say, 2 sealions a river mile from Bonneville to Astoria? In some places there are more, some less, but just for the sake of figuring, 2 sealions a river mile. That would be about 240 sealions. They weigh about 750 lbs apiece. They require calories on the order of a human athlete to survive. A 200 lb human athlete probably eats 5000 calories on an active day, which is 25 calories a pound, which means the sealion needs 18,750 calories a day. Salmon has about 30 calories per ounce, according to the USDA, but springers are probabably richer than the pink salmon the USDA measured, so figure 45 calories per ounce, or 720 caloires per pound. That means Herschel needs to eat a 26 lb springer, just to cover daily energy expenditures. If he gets two 26 lb'rs, he puts on healthy amounts of wait.

Sealions seem to haul out and sleep a lot, so I'm going to assume that they eat on average, twice the number of calories that they need to survive. So, that would imply that 240 sealions eat about 12,000 lbs of salmon a day, if they can. The average springer is 16 lbs, so at the peak of the run, the seals would be eating 750 salmon a day.

That's a very coarse, off the cuff estimate. I suspect that the numbers of sealions is lower than 240. I'd bet on about 100 to 150 from the mouth up.

More to the point, though, I'll bet one of the state bio's has spent a little more time on the subject, and can guess pretty well how many salmon these sealions eat.

Another thing to argue about while we wait for the rod to go down. :smile:

Dinikin · 01-26-2004, 10:16 PM

I thought that SeaLions only ripoff bellies that has the most fat, and leave the other for seaguls and sturgeon.

Ty · 01-26-2004, 10:20 PM

Seals gots to eat too!

Mr. BrownTrout · 01-26-2004, 10:28 PM

It would not be that bad if they ate the whole fish, but they don't, they take a bite or two out of the belly and then move on. I am sure the numbers have only gotten worse. The numbers of sealions use to be in the 3-6 thousand range.
So you figure if there are 3,000 sealions in the river and each one kills 2 salmon per day for a month or two. Well do the math. I know I will probably get flamed for this post. These are just the facts that come from NMF. The bad thing about it, there's nothing that will ever be done about it. It would take an act of congress to get rid of some of the sealions.

Dinikin · 01-26-2004, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. BrownTrout:
It would not be that bad if they ate the whole fish, but they don't, they take a bite or two out of the belly and then move on. I am sure the numbers have only gotten worse. The numbers of sealions use to be in the 3-6 thousand range.
So you figure if there are 3,000 sealions in the river and each one kills 2 salmon per day for a month or two. Well do the math. I know I will probably get flamed for this post. These are just the facts that come from NMF. The bad thing about it, there's nothing that will ever be done about it. It would take an act of congress to get rid of some of the sealions.

Too bad Keiko died.

[ 01-26-2004, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: Dinikin ]

Ty · 01-26-2004, 10:47 PM

That is the whoel point, they don't eat the whole fish, just the best parts. The point is there isn't enough fish left fer everyone.

Save a seal, eat a commercial fisherman?

The rest of the uneatin fish doesn't go to waste, that part is for estuary health.
[img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img]

Chacal · 01-26-2004, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Silver Hilton:
No, but I'll bet I could whup up a guess pretty quick.

Let's say, 2 sealions a river mile from Bonneville to Astoria? In some places there are more, some less, but just for the sake of figuring, 2 sealions a river mile. That would be about 240 sealions. They weigh about 750 lbs apiece. They require calories on the order of a human athlete to survive. A 200 lb human athlete probably eats 5000 calories on an active day, which is 25 calories a pound, which means the sealion needs 18,750 calories a day. Salmon has about 30 calories per ounce, according to the USDA, but springers are probabably richer than the pink salmon the USDA measured, so figure 45 calories per ounce, or 720 caloires per pound. That means Herschel needs to eat a 26 lb springer, just to cover daily energy expenditures. If he gets two 26 lb'rs, he puts on healthy amounts of wait.

Sealions seem to haul out and sleep a lot, so I'm going to assume that they eat on average, twice the number of calories that they need to survive. So, that would imply that 240 sealions eat about 12,000 lbs of salmon a day, if they can. The average springer is 16 lbs, so at the peak of the run, the seals would be eating 750 salmon a day.

That's a very coarse, off the cuff estimate. I suspect that the numbers of sealions is lower than 240. I'd bet on about 100 to 150 from the mouth up.

More to the point, though, I'll bet one of the state bio's has spent a little more time on the subject, and can guess pretty well how many salmon these sealions eat.

Another thing to argue about while we wait for the rod to go down. :smile:

Wow, now I am sorry I slept through the story problem section of algebra....

ah...no...wait....

I will just rely on great people like this.

Thank you sir for being a math-oriented person. My answer would have been....

Gorsh! I bet they eat a lot!

Now I can say, "750 salmon a day, approximately, judging on the caloric intake of an olympic athlete."

Thank you for saving me hours of thinking about that. You should get an ifish award or something. Seriously.

I have a couple of extra ifish stickers...want em?

Chacal

Who HATES math (which is probably why his wife has control the checkbook)...

jaydee · 01-27-2004, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dinikin:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mr. BrownTrout:
It would not be that bad if they ate the whole fish, but they don't, they take a bite or two out of the belly and then move on. I am sure the numbers have only gotten worse. The numbers of sealions use to be in the 3-6 thousand range.
So you figure if there are 3,000 sealions in the river and each one kills 2 salmon per day for a month or two. Well do the math. I know I will probably get flamed for this post. These are just the facts that come from NMF. The bad thing about it, there's nothing that will ever be done about it. It would take an act of congress to get rid of some of the sealions.

Too bad Keiko died. <hr /></blockquote>:grin:

fishuntr2 · 01-27-2004, 05:38 AM

I have to disagree with the statements that the sea lions only eat the best parts of the salmon. I have seen a sea lion tossing a fish into the air to rip out a mouthful, ...then coming up, grabbing the same fish and tossing it to rip out another mouthful. The seagulls were flocking around picking up scraps. The sealion kept doing this until the last time it happened, there was only a fish skeleton flying thru the air. And the seagulls cleaned all the scraps, then left.
So that sea lion ate the whole fish. This was during the middle of springer season. However....if there was a season on the darn things, I would buy a tag. The sealion population needs to be controlled....not allowed to run amuck

Silver Hilton · 01-27-2004, 06:50 AM

I suspect that the sealions eat more or less of the fish, depending on how hard they are to catch. Down near longview, they seem to work pretty hard to get their fish, and my experience is that they seem to eat the whole thing.

As to there being 3000 sealions in the river, that means that there would have to be about 25 critters per river mile. That seems pretty high, based on my observations.

Mr. BrownTrout · 01-27-2004, 07:32 AM

Those figures came right from the National Marine fisheries. I believe it too, as there have been many times I have seen close to 1,000 sealions sunning themselves on desdamona sands. Yes they need to be controled, but it would take an act of congress, all 50 states would have to approve it, once again that came right from the National Marine Fisheries.

tailchaser · 01-27-2004, 08:15 AM

I know if ODFW started selling seal lion tags it would increase revenue a lot!!

Maybe they could do that instead of raising fees next time.

tc

fishchaser · 01-27-2004, 08:44 AM

I sat and watched a sealion last year in Milwaukie. It looked like he took down 5 fish. BUT in reality it was only one fish. He was playing with it. He would throw it across the way and let it sink, than he would go after it again and throw it around. He did this for about an hour and a half. It was just ONE FISH. not five. Watch and learn from these animals. They are cool to watch. How I know it was the same fish was that you could see it was all chewed up. Once it didn't have a head, he ate it. Than he went after the head portion. Looked like two fish, but the second one did not have a body.

I myself would love to see the ones that are out of their natural area be caught and sent to an aquarium, but that's not how things work around here.

chummer · 01-27-2004, 09:07 AM

Were they really there first? I'd kinda like to know. Is there any historical data showing sealions in the bonneville or willamette area before the dams? It seems only lately that we have heard anything on sealions targeting sturgeon. Anyone know anything?

Pete · 01-27-2004, 09:17 AM

Reminder: Some topics are very emotion packed. Seals and sealions seem to tap in to some strong responses. Please remember as you post that Ifish will not tolerate suggestions of illegal actions. Please try to express your ideas constructively.

Boat Monkey · 01-27-2004, 09:39 AM

Hey, just a thought, how about managing the fishery with gill netters, salmon, sportsfisherman and natural attrition in mind? How about some lottery funds chanelled into our natural renewable resources...

redfish89 · 01-27-2004, 09:52 AM

a good seal is a dead seal!!!! last week up around bonn, i saw two seals ate 6 sturgeon in 15 minutes. Sturgeon are Easy pickens for seals...

Taildragger · 01-27-2004, 10:08 AM

The old timer I fish with said that back in the day they used to shoot any seals or sea lions that came above the astoria bridge.After a while they seemed to learn that they were not welcome in the main river. I wouldnt mind if they made it open season on them again. I think that there are plenty of fish for them in the ocean and the only reason they come up so far is that it is easy pickens and there are no predators.

redfish89 · 01-27-2004, 10:35 AM

a good seal is a dead seal!!!! last week up around bonn, i saw two seals ate 6 sturgeon in 15 minutes. Sturgeon are Easy pickens for seals...

CATCH AND EAT · 01-27-2004, 12:23 PM

Why not allow a sealion hunt with a special tag or permit? Control the population in the river systems of these predators and help the salmon runs in the mean time. Hey it would also raise revenue for fisheries and hunting in Oregon. Tag price could be 4 or 5 thousand bucks to hunt them legally unlike the illegal shooting that cost that dude $7000 last year.

Why not let the tribes have a take on these bad boys? Don't know if they have an interest or not but certainly they were once part of the sustenence.

Just curious if anyone has any numbers as to the complete recovery of the sealion population? As I see it they have recovered very nicely. Am I wrong about this?

Steelie Ben · 01-27-2004, 03:11 PM

Just out of curiosity, what was the lowest set of "major" rapids on the big "C" before the dams? I would bet the sea lions never went above them, but surely sat below them for easy pickens. I would bet the natives had some means of dealing with sea lions right in their prime netting water, I second the Idea of bringing the tribes in as a way of controlling the problem. I really don't think it would take a huge number of sea lions taken before the rest got the picture, they are not stupid animals. I am not a big fan of them by any means but they are here so were gonna have to deal with it, just don't leave your fish on the side of your boat!!
SB

wetonwhite · 01-27-2004, 03:28 PM

firstly it is only a major problem for the sports fisherperson thus most law makers dont care and f&w in both states feel its only part of nature. which it is so with the majority not giving a rip. how far do any of you feel this will go to rid the river of these "cute playfull smart and loveable" littel darlings??????

when the rod goes down reel fast and hope for the best!!!!

Silver Hilton · 01-27-2004, 04:43 PM

I think it is likely to more realistic to try to get the Marine Mammals law amended to allow non-lethal harrassment. I would be very happy if I could just use a noisemaker like a firecracker to drive them away.

It's likely politically impossible, even with Bush in the White House, to get any sort of a general kill regulation on these critters. The law would have to be changed at the federal level, and there probably aren't three congressmen who are willing to risk being confronted by PETA members with pictures of sad weepy sealion eyes. There is no history of a sport kill, and the indians don't even want a traditional kill, at least that I have heard of. I wonder if there was ever any harvest of them. The indians around here had plenty of salmon. I suspect that they preferred that, and deer, to sealion.

But I wonder if we could get a modification that would allow non-lethal harrassment to drive them away from fishing gear?

GutshotApe · 01-27-2004, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. BrownTrout:
It would take an act of congress to get rid of some of the sealions.

That's right...it was the Marine Mammal Protection Act, passed by Congress 30 years ago, that is most responsible for the increase in pinnipeds...and it will take Congressional action to fix the problem. ODFW has no jursidiction...its a Federal problem that will require a Federal remedy.

A couple of years ago the Squaxin Island Indians of south Puget Sound were reported to be considering harvesting some seals and sea lions...under their treaty rights...but I never heard anything more about it. :whazzup:

GutshotApe · 01-27-2004, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. BrownTrout:
It would not be that bad if they ate the whole fish, but they don't, they take a bite or two out of the belly and then move on. I am sure the numbers have only gotten worse. The numbers of sealions use to be in the 3-6 thousand range.
So you figure if there are 3,000 sealions in the river and each one kills 2 salmon per day for a month or two. Well do the math. I know I will probably get flamed for this post. These are just the facts that come from NMF. The bad thing about it, there's nothing that will ever be done about it. It would take an act of congress to get rid of some of the sealions.

Jignfloat · 01-27-2004, 05:56 PM

Its always been my hope, the sealions would make the natives restless......now who could stop them if they decided to take a few lions for the next big ceremony????

Russ

fishnpray · 01-27-2004, 07:01 PM

I'm not good enough with the numbers or the facts about this situation to know what should or shouldn't be done. It certainly is frustrating to see one of those fellas picking up fish when I can't buy a bite. The laws are there though, and they do need following. One time I was fishing (as a kid,) on a buddy's dad's boat in Alaska. The dad was radioing back with a few other folks that were fishing the same area. One of the guys stops in the middle of his bantering and says, "Wait a sec, there's a lil' critter gobblin' some salmon down here, I got to go get the camera..." A minute later, BOOM!...you could hear the shot where we were...they call it "Taking Pictures" some places down there I guess...

not a good idea.
-Luis

wetonwhite · 01-27-2004, 11:48 PM

we all being good sportsmen, and sportswoman may try to not fish for salmon during feeding season and save our quota for later in the year when it is a real hoot to catch a springer.

say october when the b run gets going upriver [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]

lets be happy that we can partake in this sport at all someday we may have to forgo springers alltogether: and yes I have been told its not rare to see sealions above the dallas and
john day some years :shocked:

Jimmy Carl Black · 01-28-2004, 08:30 AM

Why don't y'all focus this NRG on the threat of global warming.

Oh yeah, that's another topic we know practically nothing about.

Disclaimer: this is tongue-in-cheek.

Now for the serious part:

Lets stop [img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img] and start

to the fish gods for another record run.

Mojo · 01-28-2004, 08:43 AM

I'm with you Jimmy Carl Black!

[img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

fishbait · 01-28-2004, 08:54 AM

I remember a friend telling me about a friend of his dads that used to use preemie size baby bottle ******s on his 22 rifle. Said it almost made it totally quiet and many many years ago there were a group of fisherman that worked on limiting the number of seals above the mouth of the Willamette. I don't know about this, but that is what I have been told.

Got Fish? · 01-28-2004, 09:43 AM

2 salmon a day sounds good to me but what about when the gillnetters hit the river... :whazzup: I have seen multiple fish ripped from nets by only one sea lion working the area. I have also seen higher than 5 fish heads being brought in by commercial fishermen on any given pick of the net. I think that if were assuming 2 fish per day I think it needs to be 10 times that number when the nets are in.