Dependency on an E-collar???

[River Animal]

We are trying to plan ahead for our new pup's training (i.e. seeking out a lot of professional advice). The biggest unsettled issue though is solidly agreeing on whether or not to use an e-collar.

Seems to me like most highly respected trainers do use an e-collar for polishing (save a few).

My big question though is about dependency of the e-collar after formal training is complete. In order to avoid making the pup collar wise, the e-collar always needs to be on when commands are given, right?

One point that was raised to me was that there are times when an e-collar (or collar at all) is inconvenient and sometimes even unsafe (when commands are being given; not when bedding down). Ex: hunting in the presence of many down logs or objects the pup can get hung up on.

Really I think I just need a little convincing... :grin: :grin: Have any of you experienced times when it put your pup in danger to wear the e-collar on a hunt (or you chose not to bring the dog b/c of the e-collar)? Is it ever terribly incovenient?

I would appreciate any information that says its worth it to always have to have that little black box around their neck...

All opinions welcome!!! Bring em' on!

[98ramtough]

I had my dog hunting the big CR last year and he was chasing a crippled mallard towards the middle. My Chessie is very hard to call off a swimmer. Very hard. I saw the fog coming in fast and was able to call him off the bird with the ecolar and he made it back before the fog rolled in. Down the bank about 500 yards a guy lost his BLF. The fog came in so fast and he could not get his dog to quit chasing a cripple.

The colar should never be used to teach anything new. It is just like a mile long leash really. I will not hunt without the colar. When introduced to the colar correctly the dog will never even associate it with being corrected. When I get my colar out my dog gets excited because he thinks we are going hunting...

I am not trainer, just my experience..

[Yeti]

1) The collar is only used to reenforce known commands.
2) It is very difficult or impossible to reenforce a command when you dog is 100 yds away, without a collar.
3) To use or not use is a personal decision. The collar can help your dog learn faster and help maintain a better attitude and relationship with you. I have not trained for almost six months and my dogs still fight for position when I start tightening collars. They know it is time to do what they love best. Yes this is "collar wise" but in a good way.
4) I have not met any one who has had their dog get hung up due to a propperly worn e-collar. They should be fitted tight so there is little chance of snagging.
5) After a command is known and has not been refused for a long time you won't need the collar.
6) When you really need the collar, dog chasing a cripple across a road, you may save your dogs life with it. Without it????
And finally, 6) If you don't use a collar properly it can seriously mess up your dog. Get proffesional help to learn the proper use of the collar.

Good luck,

Yeti

[thehunt]

Good to see your still alive and kicking steve. How is the new family? Had a chance to sneak away lately or stuck on diaper duty? IT's almost time for turkeys!!

[taggbro]

I personally will not hunt without an e-collar.
I have yet to get into a situation where the e-collar is unsafe.

If training is done right, you need not worry about the dog becoming collar wise. The e-collar is only used to reinforce already known commands.

Case in point, I have a shorthair and a lab that I hunt that both wear an e-collar. It is rare that I have to nick the dog in the field. When I do have to nick the dog, it is on a low shock level. Just a reminder so to speak. The usual crime is lack of being steady or continuing to hunt a bird that was not shot. Next in line is attempting to fetch a downed bird in the case of hunting with multiple dogs (not honoring). Another common crime is failing to return to heel after alot of shooting action. Both of my dogs are pretty well trained so these occurances are few and far between.

The time to worry about a dog becoming collar wise is in the intitial stages of training FF and obedience. To answer your direct question, yes, always have the e-collar on when training or hunting.

The exception:

E-collars are not allowed during hunt tests or field trials so if you are planning either, plan on the more formal training without the e-collar. A good resource for the proper training use of e-collars is well articulated by Mike Lardy in his training journals as well as "e-collar conditioning" available at totalretriever.com

Glenn

[River Animal]

thanks for your input... :grin: I'm glad to hear about some instances where it can save a life. We definately will have the help a professional trainer since its the first time we'd be using it. :smile:

[salty dog]

I don't use them although I am not opposed to someone else using one on their dog.

My choice is a personal preference based upon a very bad experience. I had an English setter professionally trained some years back. The trainer used an e-coller. We were hunting grouse in some heavy cover on a private farm. The dog went into some thick brush and hit an electric fence in the middle of a briar patch which we had not seen. Because of the cover the dog was literally hung on the fence for a few seconds. Needless to say, he didn't know what he had done so wrong that I would have done that to him, but the result was that he wouldn't leave my side for the rest of the day.

My current setter is my personal dog. Since she was weaned, I alone have fed her, walked her, taken her to obedience training and trained her to hunt. Whatever room of the house I am in, she follows. Not only do I not use a collar, I don't use a whistle or anything but voice commands. She is my hunting partner. She knows how far to roam and I know that she is has a much better nose for birds than I, so I tend to follow her lead when she's birdy. At most, she receives a good scolding for her errors to which she responds as if I had used a collar on her.

This is my technique. It may not work for everyone but my dog and I are both happy with it and we both seem to have lots of fun afield.

[jokester]

Uh...Yeti, you might want to edit your 2nd #6 before the mods see it :grin: Didn't think it would get past the word censor, but it did. Just a heads up

-jokester

[gottafish]

Yeti # 6 It should stay because you really can and I think that word adds the seriousnes to the mater at hand. Id just like to add e collars work great on teens that are out of control. LOL

[waterfowlin101]

Here is my thinking....

Dogs were trained and trained well before technology came around. E-collars, while effective, are fairly new in the big picture. Why are they helpful to many owners?...my guess is that it requires a lot less time and effort.

It seems like we as a society have used technological advances to substitute for our laziness. Instead of taking the extra time to train a dog, we substitute in this zapper that just takes care of a bunch of the work. Now we don't have to worry about having a true relationship with the dog...a relationship that ensures the dog will obey commands because it's worst fear is letting down it's owner. Instead, the dogs worst fear is getting shocked . It just doesn't make sense to me...I'd rather spend the extra effort and develop the relationship.

Let me be clear...

1) I don't think all folks who use an e-collar are neccessarily lazy...but lets face it, technology breeds laziness...if you don't agree, you are lying to yourself

2) I have no issues with the "shocking" aspect of the e-collar. I know at most levels it really doesn't hurt the animal.

3) I am not an expert by any means...just a guy with an opinion.

Go ahead...flame away

Jon

[jimh]

waterfowlin101, I know people who trained their dogs with shotguns years ago. I think an collar is more humane! Any way...

What kind of dog are we talking about and what kind of hunting? If you have a dog with a lot of horsepower, you'll need a collar. However, if you have the opposite, you'll never need one, and it could be detrimental.

I haven't had a problem using a collar hunting, but I do know of cases when a person needed. That is, they wish they would have had a collar. In one case, the dog took off running after game and never came back. They'd still have the dog if they would have had a collar.

However, I also know plenty of people who never needed a collar for their dogs.

[gottafish]

I have one and almost never used it to shock the dog, Where mine shined Is for blind retreves. the little sound button when pushed eliminated the need for a whistle as the dog would look back at me and I could direct him. At SI that made a lot of guys in the blind next to me happy. I think I nicked the dog twice in the five years I had it.

[waterfowlin101]

waterfowlin101, I know people who trained their dogs with shotguns years ago. I think an collar is more humane! Any way...

Agreed....but is laziness a substitute for stupidity?

[gottafish]

Agreed....but is laziness a substitute for stupidity?

Jon not all collars are set up to hurt the dog. It is there if needed but most times the sound function is worth its wait in gold. or would you rather I stand up in the blind and yell and blow my whistle at the dog on retreaves? Just sayin they have there place and its not just for the lazy. I sir am not lazy when it comes to training my dogs. in fact it almost caused a devorce in my house. LOL

[duckdog310]

Here is my thinking....

Dogs were trained and trained well before technology came around. E-collars, while effective, are fairly new in the big picture. Why are they helpful to many owners?...my guess is that it requires a lot less time and effort.

It seems like we as a society have used technological advances to substitute for our laziness. Instead of taking the extra time to train a dog, we substitute in this zapper that just takes care of a bunch of the work. Now we don't have to worry about having a true relationship with the dog...a relationship that ensures the dog will obey commands because it's worst fear is letting down it's owner. Instead, the dogs worst fear is getting shocked . It just doesn't make sense to me...I'd rather spend the extra effort and develop the relationship.

Jon

Jon,

Good point. I would submit advances in technology coupled with their responsible and intelligent use result in a better end product, so to speak. As examples, consider GPS, HeviShot and the new waterproof clothings out there. Does this mean you can abandon the maps, forget about skeet practice and forge ahead in dangerous weather? Nope. You just have to use the technology to compliment the altruisms of whatever field in which they are applied.

The e-collar is no substitute for a loving, intelligent training program. That said, responsible and intelligent use of the collar systems in manner complimentary of a great training program will yield, IMHO, a much better end product.

Before anyone flames. . .I use the term "product" for illustrative purposes only. My pups aren't barcode-wearin' inventory-numer totin' products! :grin:

[Tilla]

Collars may be a newer tool in dog training but the advances made with this device in conjunction with newer training methods has rocketed dog performance to levels not seen before. In other words, dogs are performing tasks today that were unheard of 10 years ago. This increase in dog performance is creating growing pains in the Field Trial and Hunt test world.
This is not being lazy. My boss expects more from me and gives me the tools (computers,training,etc) to do it.
Granted, most hunters including myself just need a dog to do some straight forward single retrieves maybe a double within 75 yds and some back work to cross a ditch and get a difficult mark. Add some basic obedience so we have some control and some social skills and we are good. A dog like this will service 95% of our needs.
A collar, properly applied, makes this happen faster and efficiently and with better control. If Jon wants to reduce laziness, I suggest he walk to the pond and throw rocks at the ducks! :grin:

On another note you should be cautious of any type of collar worn around water. A loose fitting collar may trap a front leg.
Sadly I do know of one case in the Willamette Valley where an out of sight dog was lost due to a e-collar getting hung up on a branch in flooded timber chasing a cripple. :depressed:

[Hawk]

If Jon wants to reduce laziness, I suggest he walk to the pond and throw rocks at the ducks! :grin:

Now that's funny!

Reminds me of an older gentleman in Bend who, when told his doctor was out chasing antelope with a bow and arrow said, "Doesn't he know the indians gave up on those useless sticks 100 years ago?"

[waterfowlin101]

If Jon wants to reduce laziness, I suggest he walk to the pond and throw rocks at the ducks! :grin:

I've tried it before, but to no avail ....and you know what, I never actually said I was against being lazy :grin:.

Jon

[baltz526]

when hunting, the collar has been un needed. where my dog needs attitude adjustment is at home. having an unfixed male lab, requires some heavy handed control measures at times.trying to stop the fence jumping, kennel destroying antics. when the wind blows in a scent or other dogs run through the neighbourhood, to stop the obsessive barking, when the neighbour cats are breeding and fighting.

[Yeti]

waterfowlin101,

No flame here, I am an officially reformed techno weenie now retro grouch, well kinda.

My main argument for the proper use of the ecollar is that it will reduce the learning curve for the dog. It is the quickest and safest way to guide the dog into making the correct decision. The relationship between the trainer and the dog also benefits greatly because the trainer no longer has to "enforce" the behavior. When properly collar conditioned the dog will think it is responsible for changing its mind not the trainer.

Yeti

[llama77]

River animal,
All dogs with any amount of time with an E collar are collarwise. The first few times they get corrected they think it came from the ground,They learn quickly that the correction comes from the hand of man. So how do you get away with running a dog at a licensed trial, hunt test, or hunting without a collar? (without a collar of any kind)
Its conditioning. the dog gets trained to the point that it responds "automatically" to a sit whistle or a stay command or whatever. It just becomes an automaic response.
And it takes more than just the E-collar. One way to keep them from "acting " collar wise is to do a certain amount of you rcorrections the old fashioned way. Fido has to understand that even if hes 300 yards away, he has to sit on th ewhistle or you will personnally go out and make him do it.
I usually hunt with the collar, mostly because I want to be able to make corrections when they occur.
If I trained more consistantly, the collar would no tbe needed.
Yes the collar can catch on stuff. the dog can also jump into a pond and land on a stick. My friends dog crossed the willamettte river near Salem thi syear chasing a crippled goose. He ended up across the river without his collar because my friend took it off because it was orange.
He got the dog back by a stroke of luck. If the wrong person had found him, he would have had a new home for sure.
Sure most dogs can recover 95 % of the birds we shoot. I can recover 90 % myself. Its the other 5% that we need well trained dogs for. A 200 yard blind or more is not uncommon for us this year while goose hunting.
I see you are in Harrisburg. Theres a licensed field trial near Junction City the first weekend in march. You should check it out. you ll see some really amazing dog work if you havent been to one before.

[River Animal]

Thanks for the info llama77-- that'll be this weekend I think. I think I'll attend! Very helpful information from all-- Thanks so much!