Walla Walla/Wenaha elk hunts

stickflicker · 02-13-2006, 06:59 PM

Can anyone give a good reason for odfw to allow for 250 spike hunters in the walla walla and 300 spike hunters in the wenaha during the big bull season in these units for rifle.I personally i'm a archery hunter but some of these guys have waited up to 10-12yrs. to draw this tag just curious what odfw was thinking.Any thoughts???

sliverpicker · 02-13-2006, 07:19 PM

$$$$$

Gun Rod Bow · 02-13-2006, 07:36 PM

I hunted in one of the limited draw units this year. My buddy had THE tag. I was able to hunt with him and hunt spikes.

There are so few hunters in those units I really don't think it's a big deal.

What's the rub?

stickflicker · 02-13-2006, 07:41 PM

I was not nessasarily (sp) refering to archery but more for the rifle hunters. We know that nobody really wants to hunt that stuff for spikes but now this gives the second chance tag guys just another place to go when this is one of oregons premere hunts.

PullShootExplode · 02-13-2006, 07:44 PM

It is all about the benjamins. Look at the an=mount of rifle hunts going on during archery season.makes me sick. I wish theat the politics were out of ODFW and that the bios could do their job.

pnwcoast · 02-13-2006, 09:39 PM

um, cha ching........

rimrock · 02-13-2006, 09:43 PM

You made a mistake in your original post�ya used the word �thinking�

It would be nice if they did

Hookset · 02-13-2006, 10:04 PM

I really don't understand the reason behind this, but I'll share my

on what I think is going on.

My guess; With the low elk numbers and the higher bull to cow ratios in these units, to many bulls increases the stress level on the cows during the rut. If the spikes go largely unchecked each year and survive to year 2 , 3 etc..., this exceeds the ideal bull to cow ratio.

The real problem here is calf recruitment, or lack there of. I believe only 20 or fewer calves survive their first year. The calf survial numbers have continued to decline at a drastic rate; from 40 to 50 per 100 historical numbers, dropping to 30 - 35 and now only apx. 20 out of 100 survive their first year.

The elk population continues to drop each year, so cow hunts were eliminated to help increase elk numbers. And in the meantime, the bios manage the bull to cow ratios with the spike elk hunts.

With only an estimated 1500 elk in the Wenaha unit today, they need to do more then manage bull/cow ratios. Historical elk population numbers in the Wenaha was 4000 - 4500 elk.

Elk hunters have really suffered a disservice from the state ODFW department by not working hard enough to control a severe un-balance of predator to prey ratios. Wenaha has a lot of cougars and bears in that unit and has always had one of the largest populations in the state.

The reasons behind the management of the Walla Walla and Wenaha units as a trophy bull elk area is largely a fluke and wasn't intentionaly planed for. But that's another story.

Gregg

Radke · 02-14-2006, 09:04 AM

I don't have all the statistics I'd want at hand, but if you look at the MO for Wenaha, they are looking for 10 bulls per 100 cows. In 2004, they had 21 per 100 cows, prior year 14, prior prior year 11. For the Walla Walla unit, again the MO is 10 per 100 cows, and classified 12 bulls per 100 cows in 2004, 10 and 10 in the prior two years.

Are they just bringing the bull numbers down to their desired MO? Sounds like they are already there in the Walla Walla unit, but not Wenaha.

question I would have is why is the MO so low.

I have a hard time beliving an excess number of bulls would cause a low calf recruitment. I think the bulls pretty much sort out who is number one, but it is always the cows who determine who gets the breeding done.

Ras · 02-14-2006, 09:15 AM

There is one other management benchmark: T$O (Tag $ale Objective).

Ras

Gun Rod Bow · 02-14-2006, 09:22 AM

Quote:

question I would have is why is the MO so low

That is an excellent question.

One thing that increases calf recruitment is to have as many cows as possible bred on their first cycle. This brings the calves on the ground at (basically) the same time making it tougher for predators to eat all the newborns, as well as entering their first winter larger and stronger.

10 bulls per 100 doesn't seem like near enough to do that.

WapitiBob · 02-14-2006, 09:24 AM

A M.O. of 10/100 is shameful and they should be disgusted with a ratio like that.

RoscoeP · 02-14-2006, 09:32 AM

The MO's are WAY too low in all units IMHO....

One reason may by from political pressure to keep herd counts down to ease crop damage on private land....

rimrock · 02-14-2006, 09:38 AM

If it is MO and I don�t know if this really is the case or not, fine let�s see them make the case. But why oh why must the spike hunt overlap the limited entry trophy hunt so many are waiting for. If it is MO than adjust the tags during the first season, why a third hunt running concurrently with the Bull hunt?

I think we already have an idea at least in part.

Isn�t that nice.

I would love for someone to clear this up, because I really don�t have any idea what in the world is going on here.

birdsnest · 02-14-2006, 09:52 AM

My understanding is that the unit went to draw tags only for rifle. This elimanated the 2nd season "over the counter" spike tag that was unlimited last year. This hunt ran at the same time as the "trophy" hunt.

A good question would be how many 2nd season over the counters tags have been purchased in years past. Lets say on average that 500 of these tags had previously been sold. that could be seen as good news for this years hunter. But if they have only been selling 50-100 tags. That would then suck for this years hunter.

By the way I have 11 points and want as few of people as possible there when I get my chance.

Rank Amateur · 02-14-2006, 09:53 AM

I think they have been running the spike hunts with the controlled hunt all along. I agree, you wait for years to get the quote trophy tag and then you have other people to contend with. Just imagine, "Hey Dude, you should have been here five minutes ago when I shot my spike, there was a 400 plus bull with him."

Success rates on those hunts only run around 50%. I guess they don't want you to score 100%, this allows for more controlled tags.

Radke · 02-14-2006, 11:05 AM

Quote:

A good question would be how many 2nd season over the counters tags have been purchased in years past. Lets say on average that 500 of these tags had previously been sold. that could be seen as good news for this years hunter. But if they have only been selling 50-100 tags. That would then suck for this years hunter.

For 2003, there were 279 OTC tags for Walla Walla and 731 for Wenaha. That is the only year that I could find stats on.

GreatWhiteHunter · 02-14-2006, 11:24 AM

We've always wondered about this. What's even more aggrevating is that they have a first season spike tag the week BEFORE the big bull hunt. Nothing like letting everyone in to run the bulls around before you get your once-in-a-lifetime crack at hunting a big bull in these units.

outdoor.spec.ops · 02-14-2006, 11:42 AM

Maybe it is to allow the opportunity to scout/hunt (5-10 times

) the area before you ever draw the big bull tag in 30+ years. It would be nice to see those big bulls, even if you only have a spike tag.

sliverpicker · 02-14-2006, 12:26 PM

When I archery hunted the Walla Walla in 2004, we saw more mature bulls then anything else! One spike and very few cows and calves. :depressed: I find it hard to believe the bull/cow ratio is 10/100.

We hunted 13 or 14 days, and never actually saw or heard another bowhunter in the woods. What we noticed though was, a big camp of guys that came and went throughout the season. Depending on which member of the camp you talked with, they had 1 or 3 branch bull tags in camp! I can't say for certain, but we were pretty sure every hunter in camp was hunting the branch bulls!

Vic Coggins from ODFW(Enterprise)stopped at our camp and checked our lic/tags during the last week of the season. He told us that poaching of big bulls is a BIG problem in both the archery and rifle seasons.

We finally took a 360 class bull before the season ended.

sliverpicker

stickflicker · 02-14-2006, 06:25 PM

i just see it as you put that many more guys in a unit like that with the quality of animals up there and your just asking for poaching problems.I know that when ihunted with my good friends up there during the archery season we ran in to alot of guys who were there just to bugle at these beast.This could also be taken in to consideration when these elk are trying to breed and ever tom,dick and harry is up there bugling at them just to take alook at the big guys

Rank Amateur · 02-14-2006, 08:44 PM

Interesting take on the poaching aspect. In doing research on spike only hunting, I read an article about one of the first areas that ever tried it, in Montana I believe. I believe the poaching loss in that unit was around 13-15% per year, so in 5 years, over 50% of the bulls have been harvested, but not by hunters.

Sounds like you found some good old boys party hunting.

As far as having other hunts going on at the same time or before your hunt, while it is fustrating, we must consider that it is a management tool. If we just allowed the controlled tag hunters the first, undisturbed hunt, the success rate would be higher and so less tags could be let out. It is indeed a double edged sword.

Hookset · 02-14-2006, 10:36 PM

Still, the M.O. numbers are pitiful for what is considered a trophy elk unit. Many western states manage trophy elk units at 20 bulls to 100 cows or better. That's why I said Oregon wasn't purposely managing the Wenaha and Walla Walla units as trophy elk areas. It was a fluke from improperly managing national forest land and early freakish winter storms that occured 2 years in a row around 1989 and 1990.

When the ODFW adopted the elk management plan for the state, MO numbers changed and so did their policy on the prefered method to achieve the new cow to bull ratios.

Instead of limiting "any elk tags" or drastically reducing "bull tags", they opened up more cow hunts to bring down the numbers of cows. With fewer cows and the same number of bulls, the ratio between bulls and cows started to achieve the new MO objectives, like 10 bulls per 100 cows. I believe their goal was to achieve the new MO numbers within a short period, to which the ODFW was successful.

Only problem is, we are left with fewer elk. Sure, more cows are breed by mature bulls rather then spikes and rag horn 2 and 3 year olds. Except the change in elk strategy also followed the increase in predator numbers.

I really believe Oregons elk and deer populations have never been worse. From Blacktails, Mule deer and Elk, the numbers are down throughout the state. The Oregon hunter has seen a huge decline in game numbers and that translates to fewer opportunites in the future.

Ok, I'll get off the soap box,

Gregg

mtn300 · 02-15-2006, 12:30 AM

I agree with everything said. Three years ago the wenaha had lots of elk now you hardly see any. But yet the odfw reduced spring bear tags now how does that make sense. I guess if the calf crops are so poor less cows up the number of bulls per cow. The whole deal doesen't make any sense. Just need have otc tags for spring bear. That would help the elk out a lot. It sad to see unit that were really good for elk go downhill then have the tags numbers reduce to where it could take you 15 years to draw. I encourage all who hunt to buy a bear tag lets bring back the elk. It disgust me so much about the the predator control i could go on for days but i will spare everyones ears.

Ras · 02-15-2006, 08:01 AM

Initially, WA state started the limited branch-antler hunts just across the border, about 3 years prior to OR jumping on the bandwagon. It was more going on theory of having more mature bulls to do the breeding, eventually "bolstering" the elk herd

. See where that has gotten us; fewer elk, and a tag you can't get :whazzup:. They have accomplished the mature bull part of the equation though.....

Kinda like window shopping at Hootter's

Ras

Gun Rod Bow · 02-15-2006, 08:13 AM

Quote:

When I archery hunted the Walla Walla in 2004, we saw more mature bulls then anything else! One spike and very few cows and calves. :depressed: I find it hard to believe the bull/cow ratio is 10/100.

We hunted 13 or 14 days, and never actually saw or heard another bowhunter in the woods. What we noticed though was, a big camp of guys that came and went throughout the season. Depending on which member of the camp you talked with, they had 1 or 3 branch bull tags in camp! I can't say for certain, but we were pretty sure every hunter in camp was hunting the branch bulls!

Vic Coggins from ODFW(Enterprise)stopped at our camp and checked our lic/tags during the last week of the season. He told us that poaching of big bulls is a BIG problem in both the archery and rifle seasons.

We finally took a 360 class bull before the season ended.

sliverpicker

Good points SP. I never saw any big herds of cows in there either. But there were alot of branch bulls.

10-15 years ago in Mt Emily I saw herds of 100 cows often that had no branch bulls (during rifle season) and when you bumped a herd it was typically at least a dozen cows.

I didn't like the sound of 10/100, but what I saw over there this year was about even bulls and cows. Not a scientific data group, but not in line with 10/100.

I know a guy who had the Mt Emily hair tag this year too (bow). He had tons of guys, mostly locals moving in on big bulls he was working. No way they could all have THE tag.

Have another buddy who still hunts Mt Emily rifle and saw a guy taking out a 6 point who was pretty nervous and taking it a long way around to get it out.

I had the heads in the back of my truck as I came back through Tollgate this year. Got pulled over by a state cop who checked the tags. I mentioned to him that it seems like there were some "trophy" hunters running around with spike tags (related the Mt Emily guy's story) and he said they were watching that.

ehunter · 02-15-2006, 02:46 PM

It is not just the Wenaha unit. Last year a buddy of mine saw 100 or more come off a mountain in the ochoco un-named on Sept 11th there was one small rag horn trying to manage the cows and several spikes there should have been several branched bulls and that herd should have been broken down in a smaller number of elk if they were healthy. That is half way though the rut.

Elkhunter · 02-15-2006, 07:01 PM

Good question SF, I have 10 points this year and I'm putting in for a hunt with a spike hunt going on at the same time, I wish they could do it at a different time. Plain and simple, more folks in the woods makes it more difficult to get on a trophy. Why don't they spike hunt the following week?

dewfish · 02-16-2006, 09:59 AM

Just my two cents: How many of you; can show me a group or herd of bulls in the 5 to 10 year age group here in Oregon. They,being the public say we don't have the ability to produce trophy quality elk consistantly in Oregon. But the fact is we do not let the elk mature here. I say this is a start to good things. Hunt Utah,N Mexico,Ariz. Where this is limited entry and hunting and the bulls are muture and the herds are healthy. Our biggest problem is calf survival period. Due to weather,poor cow calf care, Preditors. Find the solution to the calveing problem and the rest will come. Close down roads to larger tracks of land. Stop poaching. Triple the current fines for lawbreakers. In summary we will have to wait to hunt trophy elk, We all need to be better stuwards of our woods. We need to voice our needs as a whole to odfw. There is not one simple answer to our elk hunting problems here in Oregon. they are as diffent as our options.

WapitiBob · 02-16-2006, 03:18 PM

Orygun is a opportunity state, not a quality state.
There isn't a 7-8 year old bull inside the state lines unless he's in a zoo, let alone a 10 year old one.

Beamerfish · 02-16-2006, 03:35 PM

Yeah that. Since my 7 elk points leaves me about 10-20 shy of what it's going to take to draw wenaha which from the sounds of it isn't everything it could be cracked up to be and I'll be too old and fat to get up and down the hill by then anyway, we just finished booking a Utah elk hunt for this year. Good thing my brother is a successful contractor currently between wives. Otherwise I'd never even have a snowball's chance of sniffing a hunt like that and definitely not an elk chance like that in Oregon. Definitely a good news bad news deal.

BloodNtheboat · 02-16-2006, 03:41 PM

Quote:

There isn't a 7-8 year old bull inside the state lines unless he's in a zoo, let alone a 10 year old one.

I beg to differ

BrianMaguire · 02-16-2006, 04:29 PM

Quote:

It is not just the Wenaha unit. Last year a buddy of mine saw 100 or more come off a mountain in the ochoco un-named on Sept 11th there was one small rag horn trying to manage the cows and several spikes there should have been several branched bulls and that herd should have been broken down in a smaller number of elk if they were healthy. That is half way though the rut.

I don't think what you are saying is neccesarily indicative of a problem with bull ratios, specifically in the Ochoco. The mature bulls have cows but they only have a handfull at a time. From what I have found is the mature bulls in the Ochoco keep a small home territory and call the cows in at night. From what I have observed the mature bulls stay very locally, in as few as 50 acres, in a hard to access honey hole, defend it, and wait for the cows. They will stay in these areas with quite a bit of pressure and just go silent during the day. I have a few holes that I can alomst guarantee that you can run into a big bull on a daily basis. At night its rock and roll but they shut the heck up after first light. They are there you just don't hear them. The cows, when in heat, go looking at night and the bulls reel them in. The cows know where the big boys live and just knock on the door when the need to. You can push the cows and rags out easily into the next canyon, but the bulls (of breeding age) are more like deer.

BrianMaguire · 02-16-2006, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Elk hunters have really suffered a disservice from the state ODFW department by not working hard enough to control a severe un-balance of predator to prey ratios. Wenaha has a lot of cougars and bears in that unit and has always had one of the largest populations in the state.

I agree but the other predator that is often left out are humans. We predate based on the MO the state sets (not counting poaching). MO's are set so low in the state it is downright ridiculus. We have the potential habitat, if we can manage it for elk, reduce road densities and allow at least a few blades of grass on public land for winter range), that could support multiples of the elk we currently "allow"/manage. But ODFW seems to have little or no interest in working with the people who actually manage the habitat (USFS and BLM) with anything close to a pro-wildlife agenda. ODFW is more interested in not hearing about a damage complaint by killing off the herds (via cow hunts) instead of figuring out how we can have little or no damage with higher herds.
The basic fact is that elk winter on private land and being big ungulates they are only tolerable at a certain level by people who make a living feeding cows, not elk.
The solution is to provide better public land winter range so the elk don't have to do damage to someone's private land. This however is something the ODFW has utterly no interest in addressing because public land use is, as one ODFW bio told me, "too controversial".
I want 400 class bulls in Oregon, you get this with less fragmented habitat (no new roads, close many existing roads), kicking the cows of public land, and letting the herds grow in size. Got a better solution? I am all ears.

Washington Hunter · 02-16-2006, 05:13 PM

Couldn't agree with you more Brian. All the western states have basically the same problem with cattle on public lands, but unfortunately, the ranchers have more than their fair share of political power, and it's almost impossible to get anybody to admit that there is a problem. I wonder...have you heard of Jon Marvel of the Idaho Watersheds Project? He's doing a good job of getting ranchers and the BLM/Forest Service to follow the laws, which in many cases are ignored, even by the government. Sounds like you could use someone like him in Oregon as well. Here's an article in case you haven't heard of him:

http://www.hcn.org/servlets/hcn.Article?article_id=5134

Amahnee · 02-17-2006, 08:36 AM

Quote:

It is not just the Wenaha unit. Last year a buddy of mine saw 100 or more come off a mountain in the ochoco un-named on Sept 11th there was one small rag horn trying to manage the cows and several spikes there should have been several branched bulls and that herd should have been broken down in a smaller number of elk if they were healthy. That is half way though the rut.

I used to hunt the southern Ochoco and it was quite common to see a raghorn with 20 cows at that time of the season. The big guys were around, but they were alone. I think the rut is in full swing around October 1st in that area. The rags gather the ladies in anticipation of breeding them at the first scent of estrus, but they are only herding them up for the mature bulls to take them away when they do go into heat.

ehunter · 02-17-2006, 08:49 AM

I was told last year the bull to cow ratio was down to 10 bulls per 100 cows. I know several guys who saw decent bulls over there last year. I also know a few years ago the rag horns were bulls in the 300 class and the herd bulls were bigger than that. And that many elk should have had some better bulls with it. The rut maybe getting later but it used to be in full swing in September I know I hunted that unit for over 10 years.

My point is that they are managing the MO by reducing the cow numbers to make the bull to cow ratio look better than they really are. Which is what Brian is referring in they are just reducing numbers instead of increasing numbers.

Rank Amateur · 02-17-2006, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Orygun is a opportunity state, not a quality state.
There isn't a 7-8 year old bull inside the state lines unless he's in a zoo, let alone a 10 year old one.

There is a handful of 7-8 year old bulls taken every year in the Saddle Mt. unit. If you want I can get the tooth data for you.

The 3pt. units provide a good balance, moderate controlled hunting, some older bulls and lots of bulls period. We go into the hunting season with around 20/100 , 2 1/2 year old or older bulls on the ground. There are up to 40/100 bull on the ground when you count the spikes, most people don't know that.

Every day I step from the pickup, I stand the chance of taking a trophy Roosie, you can't say that in a spike only hunt.

Brian is right about the predator called humans. We have had a big share in the decline over East. Just because ODF&W issued the Cow tags, didn't mean we should have harvested them! They have just hammered our herds over East and we were happy to help, but now the herds are down and predation is high. They will not get out of that hole unless the predator take is reduced. ODF&W is cutting out the Cow tags, but too late, this will not save us now.

WapitiBob · 02-18-2006, 08:40 AM

I didn't know that Rank. Thanks.

woolybuggerboy · 02-18-2006, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Just my two cents: How many of you; can show me a group or herd of bulls in the 5 to 10 year age group here in Oregon. They,being the public say we don't have the ability to produce trophy quality elk consistantly in Oregon. But the fact is we do not let the elk mature here. I say this is a start to good things. Hunt Utah,N Mexico,Ariz. Where this is limited entry and hunting and the bulls are muture and the herds are healthy. Our biggest problem is calf survival period. Due to weather,poor cow calf care, Preditors. Find the solution to the calveing problem and the rest will come. Close down roads to larger tracks of land. Stop poaching. Triple the current fines for lawbreakers. In summary we will have to wait to hunt trophy elk, We all need to be better stuwards of our woods. We need to voice our needs as a whole to odfw. There is not one simple answer to our elk hunting problems here in Oregon. they are as diffent as our options.

Yeti · 02-19-2006, 07:51 AM

Quote:

What we noticed though was, a big camp of guys that came and went throughout the season. Depending on which member of the camp you talked with, they had 1 or 3 branch bull tags in camp! I can't say for certain, but we were pretty sure every hunter in camp was hunting the branch bulls!

sliverpicker

Of course they were. Oregon big game hunting.... Shoot early, shoot often. I know for a fact that some "groups" hunt with one tag. Shoot an elk, tag it but don't punch the tag. Get it home and send the tag out with the next person. On and on. How many "spike" hunters have a branched bull "step in front of" the spike they were shooting at??? Quick, get it home and no one will know.

Kinda makes me wish there were manditory check stations. (That should raise a stink)

BTW, I am also waiting for a "trophy" tag. I hate the idea that they will be spike hunters in the same area before or during my hunt.

just my

Yeti

StevenB · 02-19-2006, 09:09 AM

I'm about 5 years out from a Wenaha branch tag. I do great in my west side hunts for elk but am hoping for a better chance at a 7 plus year old bull in Wenaha some day.

Out of my folks and I since 1972 till 2006 the oldest bull taken out of 51 bulls has been 5 years old. (20 yard shot by my mom !!!) We hunt for meat then a trophy but is it me or are the elk getting smaller in body size?

Well here is what I'd like to see to stop the poaching called "party poaching... I mean hunting". A tag that keeps all hunters honest.

It could be done many different ways I believe. Perhaps a drop of blood could be applied to a protected patch on the tag. The blood sample could trigger a chemical that would prove when the animal was taken. There could also be a location on the tag for a thumb print to be recorded to prove the tag was filled by the tag holder.... Sort of a sci-fi sounding tag but I would expect the tech for uch a tag would be available.

This idea reminds me that there was a hunter I heard of who stopped at an elk check point before noon on opening day. The elk in his truck was quartered and as cold as the night air. I guess sometimes the current sytem catches a few.

I think poaching in the name of tag filling has to be close to if not the biggest man caused reason that there are fewer animals to hunt from year to year..

ehunter · 02-19-2006, 05:21 PM

I agree party hunting is bigger than we think. Steven thats a good idea on the new tech tags there ought to be somehting that works.

Don't forget to call.

gottafish · 02-19-2006, 06:22 PM

Every one has wonderful ideas. But how do you get ODFW to implement anything??? We can talk till were blue in the face but until the heads at ODFW are affected nothing will change!! I say we somehow figure out a way to fire them and start a new. We need new minds that arn't getting kick backs from certain groups. And figure out how to keep them honest. And you guys on here from the ODFW know what I am talking about.