Wolves Bring Ecological Recovery to Yellowstone

[rimrock]

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[Sebastesgirl]

Great article rimrock! I have had the pleasure of listening to Dr. Robert Beschta talk about this topic at OSU. I have also gone to Yellowstone and seen some of the benefits first hand. I know many of you have disagreed with me on a previous thread about wolves being reintroduced, but I hope you read this article and see that they REALLY do have benefits to our ecosytem. And you are absolutly correct, nothing in wildlife management is simple. In fact nothing in management period is simple.

[Ni!]

You guys do realize that no hunting was allowed in Yellowstone prior to wolf reintroduction, right? It seems like the situations are not exactly analagous, to say the least.

Otherwise, I agree - it's an interesting article. Thanks for posting it.

Ni!

[baltz526]

interesting, but oregon may as well be a different planet, in the effect wolves will have on the ecosystem.

[rimrock]

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[Beeatease]

Thank you Rimrock that is a very interesting article.

[Gun Rod Bow]

Intersting in a non-hunted, non farmed experimental area. The only thing missing is wolves fearing man.

A drop of 17,000 to 8,000 elk would be good for riparian zones. But remember, elk weren't being hunted by man there either.

What serves the Oregon citizen better? More elk or more wolves? I guess that depends on the citizen. Those who buy elk tags I hope can see the writing on the wall.

It sounds like Nirvana for anti hunters. People stay on marked trails, wolves and grizz run free. I actually am all for that, in select areas. I would not be for that in Oregon's National Forests.

Delist the wolves, keep them and other apex predators hunted to a strictly managed population, and you may get some hunters and ranchers on board. But in the current "predator good/hunter bad" atmosphere. I think I'll fight to keep them out thank you.

[garyk]

Good article...biology is always more complicated then it ever looks.

You guys do realize that no hunting was allowed in Yellowstone prior to wolf reintroduction, right?

Indeed, not in YNP proper. But those elk migrate out of the high plateau that is YNP come fall and folks line up waiting for them. Perhaps you've heard of the 'Gardiner Firing Line'?

Hunting was impacting the population.

[Gun Rod Bow]

Hunting was impacting the population.

True, a little, but not moving elk away from fragile areas as hunting in the Park would do. Not saying we should hunt in the park, just saying it is a vacuum.

[Ni!]

Good article...biology is always more complicated then it ever looks.

Indeed, not in YNP proper. But those elk migrate out of the high plateau that is YNP come fall and folks line up waiting for them. Perhaps you've heard of the 'Gardiner Firing Line'?

Hunting was impacting the population.

I agree that hunting was impacting the population, but there are a couple of points to be made about that. First of all, the park elk herd was way overpopulated, so hunting was not impacting the population by that much. Second, within the park there was no impact, so the elk could lounge around in the open and browse at will. This was an unnatural situation that doesn't exist very often in a normally exploited population.

The whole wolf issue is one that's pretty distressing for me, as well as for people on all sides of this issue I'm sure. Personally I think it would be great to have wolves in Oregon *in theory.* If I were making the rules, I would set a target of a certain number of wolves, and a certain number of cougars, and I would allow whatever reasonable control methods were necessary to maintain those target levels. I believe this would be good for hunters and good for the environment as well. However, I am just about 100% positive that this is an impossible dream. The wolves will be protected even after they've established themselves, and the cougars will not be controlled either. The result will be much fewer ungulates available for any purpose - whether it be hunting or simply viewing. This is just a shame, and I believe this reality is the primary reason that most hunters are against having yet another apex predator introduced into an already unhealthy equation.

Ni!

[onstep]

I'm in the market for an back country hunt in either Montana or Wyoming around the park. Most of the outfitters spend a significant amount of time around the park line. Now that being said we are aren't talking about hundreds of animals being harvested a year between the 3 states surrounding the park. Wolves have hammered the elk to the toon of thousands a years. All of the outfitters I've spoken to are amazed at the decline in numbers. The Wyoming guides have especially been hit hard in the Therofare area.

Interesting side note according to an outfitter in Montana I spoke to this morning there has been a steep decline in wolves in their area due to parvo. This is the Slough Creek Buffalo Creek drainage.

[ehunter]

Ni well said I agree you made some great points. I two am not for zero wolf or cougars populations but only if they can be managed. This is the frustration felt by many of us.

I don't think this state in this day and age can be balenced any more.

[Ras]

I have made an annual family pilgrimage to YNP for the last 12 June's; as well as the last 3 February's. In the Winter, those dog's have as good a chance of getting a meal as I do at the McDonald's drive-thru They are THAT good. Spring / Summer things do get a bit tougher. Their numbers proliferated over this past decade, but most of '05 put a hurt on them.

Though I prefer to "chase" :grin: the Griz; wolves on the hunt are a pretty spectacular sight .

Ras

[rimrock]

Well yes this co-operative report focuses on Yellowstone, but there are parallels with improved ecology/habitat for the highly studied areas with the Sawtooth packs. These are hunted wilderness areas (no ranching of course but wolves migrate to the adjacent private lands; this may be more analogous to what can be expected in Oregon). But honestly there is no perfect parallel – I wish wildlife management was that black and white.

I know, I know re-introduction is not so great for hunting. But I also know it’s not right to say dogmatically the reintroduction of wolves will be nothing but detrimental. Improving the ecology of the State that’s good for all wildlife – to what level this will play out in Oregon?

The is cause for concern, no one really knows and that’s fair to say too. Ni!’s point on wolf management is certainly possible if history repeats itself. Even if the Feds allow controlled hunting, which is part of the de-listing plan, will Oregon handicap wildlife managers? Certainly possible.

[Ni!]

Today, America's most famous stretch of wilderness has become an ecologist's bonanza. It appears to be evolving in reverse -- returning to a time when flora and fauna were in a balance dictated exclusively by forces of nature, not by humans: "For the first time in 70 years, the park has a complete suite of predators and prey," Ripple said "This is a grand experiment."

I forgot to comment on this part of the article. Humans have been impacting the environment in North America for as much as 14,000 years or so. When they reintroduce Native Americans into Yellowstone, then - and only then - will the "complete suite" of predators have been reconstituted. I look forward to the implementation of this final phase of the plan.

Ni!

[crawdad]

I heard similar report last year that also mentioned a big increase in cuthroat numbers as the elk learned to avoid the riparian zones.

[rimrock]

Oh Ni!, what are we going to do with you Southern Oregon boys. :grin:

[duckboy]

I'd think that the wolves might improve the whole lot of the herd.

I mean, chances are that the wolves are not chasing the prime bulls in good shape, they are out there killing off the sickly ones, and the ones that are slow and weak, and that may mean a reduction in the number of herd members, but an overall improval of the condition of the members.

[Lucky one]

Duckboy, while wolves may cull out the sick and the weak from the heards and improve overall herd health, it doesn't mean it will improve the heards. As in the Yellowstone example, the herd was culled from 17,000 to 8,000. Are you going to tell me that 9,000 of those elk were sick and weak?
Predators don't go look for sick and weak animals, its an average. On average predators take down the weaker, dumber, and the sick. But they also take down animals in their prime.

I'm not saying stop all predation. I know predators are very important in natural settings. I love the idea of them being out there, I just want them to be out there in well managed situations.

[Bonita]

I heard similar report last year that also mentioned a big increase in cuthroat numbers as the elk learned to avoid the riparian zones.

It's true.
With the wolves around, the elk aren't hanging out in the valley bottoms all day and all night eating all the young trees. Now that the trees have had a few years to get back on their feet, there is getting to be a lot more structure in the streams. Shaded areas and hiding places, which makes for better fish habitat. And, it also improves the hydrology of the stream system.
Basically, while it is not a 'perfect' natural system, the reintroduction of the wolf has really begun to balance out the ecosystem within Yellowstone park, and in the greater Yellowstone ecosystem (an area much larger than the park which encompasses areas of Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho).

[Rank Amateur]

Thanks for posting that Rimrock, I had seen it before. Yes, that is in a pristine ecosytem without humans. Very intersting the riparian restoration, do you think they will chase loggers away from the streams? Just joking. While this aspect would probably be valid up in the National Forest, it probably will not be down in the valley floors on the private ground where fencing is the only option to restore riparian areas. I would suspect if the wolves are down in the valley floors which are almost all private, chasing cows out of the riparian zone, all lead will break out.

Elk going from 17,000 to 8,000 in ten years is a scary proposition. How much lower will they go? I wonder too if we will not get into the boom and bust cycles which biggame management was all about in the first place. I hear the guides to the North of the Park are just plain giving up. I think they have had to cut the tags way down.

Like I said earlier, I would support the Oregon Wolf Plan, but only if we are guaranteed that it will be fully implemented. Of coarse we will have to get a handle on the cougars before we can allow another apex predator in the door. Maybe that can be a leverage point???

Parvo- the secret weapon? Didn't know that. I bet the cattle industry picks up on that.

[baltz526]

Parvo- the secret weapon? Didn't know that. I bet the cattle industry picks up on that.----wasn't parvo what brought all the coyote numbers in the hart mountain area under control? along with several other areas

[onstep]

Parvo-is the secret weapon. They are trying figure out how they can catch immunize all the wolves possible. It turns out they lost an age class of pups. To bad...

Link to story... www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?ts=1&display=rednews/2006/01/06/build/wyoming/30-wolf-disease.inc

[TroutGirl]

I'm really curious how they determine what was a historic level of wolves in the park aka healthy level of wolves? Maybe the parvo is nature's way of dispersing the wolves and knocking down the weak ones. Just as we've been told the wolves will imrpove the general health and strength of the elk herds by pushing them and elminating the weak, maybe the wolves have hit the threshold and now parvo is doing that to them.

Smaller packs, more geographically seperated would keep the wolves healthier, like in any disease quarrantine situation. I'll be curious to see if the wolves take a hit and the elk herds bounce back a bit. In the big picture, this has all been very little time, and very few generations in this experiment known as Yellowstone.

[Rank Amateur]

Anybody know if Parvo is naturally occurring or is it a curse from man?

[James in Idaho]

While it is an interesting read, what isn't told is the fact that there is essentially no recuritment into the elk herd. The average age with the cows is now almost 9 years old. It's quickly becoming a preditor pit situation. Wish I had saved the links, but a quick google should find it. The drop in elk numbers will continue to be dramatic.

A parvo outbreak should not be a surprise. With the reduction in food (less elk, less food), the wolves are not in as good of shape, therefore the pups are not as healthy. Nature at work.

EDIT: Found the link http://espn.go.com/outdoors/hunting/...0/2286863.html

Looks like the bears are a problem too, they are also having a huge impact on the moose in that area.

[Gettin' Birdy]

From what I know about Parvo it is actually a mutation of feline rabies that jumped species. It's a knarly virus that can lie dormant in the environment for 2 years on blades of grass until a canine sniffs it up.

I'm no biologist but after an outbreak here in Bend last year, I learned quite a bit. Another good reason to keep your un-vaccinated pups out of public parks that get a lot of dog use until they finish their parvo shots.

I have to say I was a little hesistant to open this thread because there tends to be some pretty strong opinions about predators on this website. This has been one of the more informative and civil threads I have read in a long time.

-GB

P.S. Speaking of predators, neighbor found cougar tracks at the end of the road last night! My little yellow lab female has been hackling up when she goes into the back forty lately, now I know why!

[Rank Amateur]

I think threads go a lot better when there is some good data, this kills the speculation and the firery

The thread was also presented in a non-imflamatory way too, that always helps. Great discussion guys, this is the way it should be.

[TroutGirl]

Rank Amateur-

Parvo wasn't a genetically engineered invention by man, so I guess its natural. Diseases are always modifying and evolving on their own. When there is a weakness in a population, disease will run rampant.

The thing to remember about disease, is that it is a living organism. If it is 100% fatal and wipes out all of its hosts, it will wipe out itself. So disease strength often weakens over time at the same time the host population shifts behaviours, and immunity becomes a selected genetic trait.

If the disease eliminates a few litters of pups, the old wolves, the weak wolves, the elk will rebound some and they will have a period of continuing to learn and adjust to predation. Eventually the populations will find a normal rise and fall.

I really don't think the wolves should be immmunized. I think nature is doing its own rebalancing act in the park. The wolves won't wipe out all the elk. Sounds like hunting is tough though. I'm sorry for all the guys who need an elk for their family.

Everyone should get their dog immunized against parvo.

[Gettin' Birdy]

Good point Trout Girl! It's probably going to get worse before it gets better on the populations side. Take a apex predator like the wolf out of the habitat and the populations will naturally increase if only because a decrease in predation. Re-introduce that apex predator to generations of elk that have never learned to evade the predator and you get what has already happened, a pretty strong decrease in the prey population and increase in the predator population. I am not sure how long it will take for the populations of each to stabilize but I am of the belief it will.

-GB

[Rank Amateur]

I agree it will balance, it must have in the past, since the wolves and elk were here when man came on the scene, but what room will there be for man and his needs? That my friends is the ultimate question.

What is being proposed in the Oregon Wolf plan is not a balancing between wolves and prey in Oregon, but the allowance of wolves in Oregon to exist. But that will only be if the plan is fully implemented. These are two different things.