Too many cattle in your elk hunting area?

elkoholic · 01-24-2006, 03:51 PM

Is there anyone else having problems with too many cattle in their elk hunting area? I hunt in several different units and have noticed there are getting to be more and more cattle in the woods. I know there are only supposed to be so many cattle per square mile and the rancers are supposed to move the cattle around so they will not over graze. I know for a fact the cattle in my area are never moved and when there are a lot of cattle in the area, the elk numbers go way down. There just is not enough feed left for the bigger herds so they move on. If anyone else is having this same problem, feel free to write about it..

Thanks for your time.

ehunter · 01-24-2006, 03:54 PM

Good question my only complaint I have is that we always run into the round up during our time in the Ochoco's and the cows and cowboys blow the whole north slope during archery season. The guys are nice enough and they admit it is bad timming but they have to get then off before rifle season. Yes in my opnion there are too many cattle but I have no scientific reason to say that.

elkoholic · 01-24-2006, 03:57 PM

I ran into the same thing last hunting season. The ranchers were very nice but they came through and moved all of the cattle out. The problem is, there were not that many elk in there because of all the cattle. I talked with someone who runs the watch tower where I hunt and he said he noticed more and more elk hanging out on the private property rather than where they usually are at. He believes that there are more cattle in the woods than ever before.

baltz526 · 01-24-2006, 03:59 PM

public land is set aside for mixed use by the public. some uses are hunting, mining, timber harvest, cattle and sheep ranching,mushroom picking,all have an equal right to use the public lands. if an area is being abused, it is the land managers obligation to solve the issue. we hunters would like top billing, but we have equal rights, to use our public lands.

elkoholic · 01-24-2006, 04:10 PM

I agree Baltz, I too like to spend time in the woods when I am not hunting. I just think some ranchers are abusing the privilage to graze their cattle on public land. I know they pay for it, but like some things, it seems like it is getting out of control in some areas. I am sure I will find another are to hunt. I have just heard so many complaints from so many hunters I thought this might be a good way to have an open discussion on it to see what people thought.

BloodNtheboat · 01-24-2006, 04:25 PM

There Is a cattle rancher In an area that I hunt that also fee hunts his land which conjoins to BLM land, he is known for just before the season, running all the cattle onto the public land, which in turn pushes the elk off the public land and onto his land which is fre of cattle. It really sucks, cuase you will scout the area, find elk, and then come back only to find cattle where elk were the week before, and to add insult to injury, you can hear the elk sounding off on the private property.

crabbait · 01-24-2006, 04:44 PM

I gave up archery in the Ochocos because of the range cattle. In my opinion, there should be no cattle in the National Forest. We are just giving away habitat better used by wildlife.

ehunter · 01-24-2006, 05:43 PM

blodnet that sounds like the Ochocos I think when they push the cattle down the elk also get kicked off the public range too. I don't know if it is intentional they do have fee hunting down there but after they are done it some times takes a week or more before we started to see elk again.

lor · 01-24-2006, 05:49 PM

Not really, although I would prefer them to be gone.
We have learned to deal with them. The local rancher comes to our camp every archery season and tells us where the Elk and Deer are. We let him know if his cattle get out of the fence and even push them back in if we can.
Its a good friendship and for us, truly not a major problem.
Yea, it does make hearing Elk difficult if cattle are in the woods, but from our experience, we still find the Elk in the same general area.

ehunter · 01-24-2006, 05:52 PM

We do the same we tell him where we have seen cows and they are friendly they let us know if they have seen elk and deer it doesn't seem to help with the elk.. :smile:

Dip · 01-24-2006, 06:33 PM

Do some research and you will find in quite a few area's elk were introduced after cattle were already being grazed in a area. I dont graze cattle my self nor have a family member that does. But while taking wildlife classes in college i have gone over the subject lots.

BrianMaguire · 01-24-2006, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Do some research and you will find in quite a few area's elk were introduced after cattle were already being grazed in a area. I dont graze cattle my self nor have a family member that does. But while taking wildlife classes in college i have gone over the subject lots.

Huh? Was this after the ranchers killed them all off at the turn of the century?

USFS land is multiple use, and can be managed that way, however I feel as though hunters get the shaft and we are not even a consideration when uses are considered. Multiple use really means, welfare ranching (bunch of whiners who can't make it the real world), logging, mining, other commercial uses, and we get thrown in with "dispersed recreation" and are last on the list of priorities.

Elk and cows compete directly. Starkey shows that elk will avoid cows if possible. I know I will hear some garbage about how we see them together, but think about it. Are there any places on the east side that are not being grazed? The only reason you see the two together is that the elk have no place to go that does not have cows. Ok I got started, let me end it before I go on a long rant. Too many cows IMO.

BTW - did you know that the sale of beef as a farm product is tax free in Oregon? Yeh that is fair.

Limbhanger · 01-24-2006, 07:02 PM

I agree with the too many cows crowd, I hunted Chesnim this year for a week of the archery season and there were cattle everywhere. They had the springs and riparian areas trampled to mud holes. We never saw an elk anywhere near the cattle. Even though they are both grazers, the cows dont move around much so they really grind on the habitat. I eat beef like the next guy, but I dont really care for them in the National Forests competing. It just seems like the elk lose big in these situations. According to the biologist in Enterprise, the elk dont use the forest like they used too. The cattle are in the Forest and the Elk are primarily using the Private lands down in Zumwalt Flats.
Go figure.

gottafish · 01-24-2006, 07:30 PM

Reminds me of a old timer I ran into in the Oochcoos about 1997 loading a Moo cow quarter into his camper. I think it was les schwabs herd up there at that time. he just smiled and said free beef. got in his truck and drove away. I didn't make a call to anyone. But I should have. I kind of felt sorry for the old guy. he had to be in his early 70's and was driveing a old beat up 60 something ford. You just knew he needed the meat but it dosent make it right.

wishin · 01-24-2006, 07:32 PM

BrianMaguire,

Huh? I get that you are really angry about cows, I don't share it, but I get it. What I don't get, and would like some clarification on are your two following statements...

quote: "welfare ranching (bunch of whiners who can't make it the real world)," endquote

quote: "BTW - did you know that the sale of beef as a farm product is tax free in Oregon? Yeh that is fair." endquote

Both of those statements are some real doozies, and I would appreciate it if you would substantiate them. I believe that you might be in error on both of them.

wishin

gottafish · 01-24-2006, 07:36 PM

Hey brian I was hunting in starkey in the late 90's and I saw two spike bulls hanging with a small buffalo in the burn. I think it got out from that ranch near the store but it was a cool sight. I wonder why they stayed together and what ever happened to that buff. never saw him again. makes you wonder if the buffalo and elk hung out together in yester year?

traks44 · 01-24-2006, 07:40 PM

I hate those dang bovine as well

BrianMaguire · 01-24-2006, 07:56 PM

Quote:

BrianMaguire,

Huh? I get that you are really angry about cows, I don't share it, but I get it. What I don't get, and would like some clarification on are your two following statements...

quote: "welfare ranching (bunch of whiners who can't make it the real world)," endquote

quote: "BTW - did you know that the sale of beef as a farm product is tax free in Oregon? Yeh that is fair." endquote

Both of those statements are some real doozies, and I would appreciate it if you would substantiate them. I believe that you might be in error on both of them.

wishin

"Welfare" defined as "aid in the form of money or necessities for those in need ". USFS grazing alotments, not to mention other farm subsidize, are welfare. The transfer of aid in the form of far below market rate goods (grazing allotments $1.35 AUM), CRP, yadda, yadda, yadda. Not to mention the ultra low property taxes, subsidized by the rest of us (Schools, roads, govt., etc)"Members of Congress who are poised to spend at least $171 billion on direct farm subsidies over the next decade would be wise to examine newly released statistics detailing who actually receives these subsidies."

"Whiners", "just trying to scratch a living out of the land", yeh, yeh, yeh, and a whole batch of other garbage we hear about govt., city folk, etc. and the rest of have it as a cake walk, that is whinning.

"........join fruit, fish and livestock on the state's list of tax-exempt farm products when the legislation becomes law in January." From Oregonian link

Don't seem like doozies to me.

wishin · 01-24-2006, 09:04 PM

Yup, pretty much what I thought. You are the victim of very poor reporting in the Oregonian article. The article was regarding the addition of worms to the list of farm uses that help define a farm and that are allowed in the Exclusive Farm Use (EFU) zone. The reporter, typical of the poor understanding of the land-use planning system in general, and EFU zoning specifically, referred to "tax exempt farm products", as did your statement in your post. Farm property tax assessment for the purposes of property tax valuation is not "tax exempt", it is not a "tax break", it is simply assessing property tax at the value for which the property is zoned - ie: "exclusive farm use zone". Property outside of the Urban Growth Boundary, and within EFU zones, had rights and uses stripped from them upon zoning, and are allowed a very narrow list of used on that land. Therefore the land is taxed at the value to which it is limited in use and trade as agricultural land. If ever converted to urban use in the future, there is a huge tax penalty involved upon conversion. Pretty simple stuff really - a house in the residential zone is taxed at it's value as a house, and agricultural land in the EFU zone is taxed at it's agricultural value. Not "tax exemption". No "tax breaks". Period. And, farm products themselves are not "tax exempt". So yeah, a really big doozie.

As to the "whiners" statement. Thank you for the information on farm subsidies and the fact that food security, and really cheap food, is not an issue we need to worry about. But, I still stand by my earlier statement that to label an entire industry/livelihood/occupation as "whiners" is, indeed, a real doozie. No, maybe not a doozie - there is a long list of other words reserved for the labelling of entire groups of folks. I hope that was not your intent.

wishin

skein · 01-24-2006, 09:21 PM

Hey, wishin,

You've got a ride on my boat anytime you can get free. I appreciate what you do, and I know there's no free rides out on the ranches.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but if you like halibut or tuna, I've got one with your name on it. :smile:

Skein

baltz526 · 01-24-2006, 09:49 PM

some land managers, allow over grazing. sad but true. some land managers are overly restrictive,and restrict hunters access to our public lands. so to put blame on ranchers is not the complete picture, when their cattle are in our elk or deer hunting country, damaging water sources, or over grazing.it is because the land managers have ok'd the use, and the time they are allowed to keep their cattle on the land.you can project this same type of management problems to mushroom picking,timber harvest, or lack of timber harvest,sheep herding,wild horses, ect.all effect us hunters.

BrianMaguire · 01-24-2006, 10:22 PM

Quote:

And, farm products themselves are not "tax exempt". So yeah, a really big doozie.

As to the "whiners" statement. Thank you for the information on farm subsidies and the fact that food security, and really cheap food, is not an issue we need to worry about. But, I still stand by my earlier statement that to label an entire industry/livelihood/occupation as "whiners" is, indeed, a real doozie.

So my source was wrong, and the sale of say the 1.5 year old live stock, is a taxable event? Minus deductions for the cost of business of course, say with an LLC that deducts depreciation on land that actually appreciates, 1/2 the cost of that new truck is deductable in the first year, etc. I wasn't even thinking about the obvious, the major difference in property taxes between say farm property and commercial property. I run my own business I know the loop holes. The only difference I guess is that my cost of goods sold are not subsidized by cheap raw materials by the government, state an federal. Welfare, plain and simple and I stand by it.

A generalization that "all" ranchers is clearly wrong, but lets just take the "leadership" of the Oregon Cattelmans association as an example of the "typical" rancher. Whiners??? You be the judge.

Popeye · 01-25-2006, 08:03 AM

Did someone say "Spin Doctor"

Im with you Skein, Wishin's got a spot on my boat too!

Wild bill show · 01-25-2006, 04:51 PM

I don't know about all that other stuff but I do know it's very frustrating to wait 4 years to draw a tag and then have cowboys rounding up cattle ( and running off elk) in the middle of the rifle season. Also at night while your tired bones are trying to sleep to hear them whopping hollaring isn't very popular in my book. I do not dislike ranchers, just the one's who pull that B.S.
WBS

scottishsetter · 01-25-2006, 05:23 PM

Nov. 4th in the E. Northside unit....a day before the hunt, cowboy and dog puruse the co-oporative road closure 4-6 miles back. Can I get from the John Day F.S. office the grazing permit reports....NO! 9 tries no info.
NFS employies have to live in John Day; they cannot report on lengthy grazing in drought years.
LOP tags for Northside Unit...add them up for the last 10 years and multiply by $1000(conservative value)
!GOT MONEY!? CASH COW!
Add up the RED line numbers for Elk in the 200 series hunts 2006 multiply by $1000 and then try to take that away from 'heritage' families.
It is a Monopoly.

Opportunist · 01-25-2006, 06:46 PM

When I used to bowhunt Eastern Oregon 1992-2000 for elk we used to hobo around alot from unit to unit in a two week period. We'd start in the Umatilla n/f hunt for 4 or 5 days then move camp to the ochoco n/f for 4-5 days and maybe end up in the Malheur n/f. It was amazing the difference in each n/f how the grazing was managed or mismanaged. I personally haven't met a permitee cattlemen that wasn't a good guy to stop and b/s with about the area. I've got great info from rangeriders and logtruck drivers.

It seems that alot of the issues arise with forest service policies that are not mandated or not enforced for muliple use recreation are based on political whims of whatever party is in charge. Therefore us little guys feel the brunt of overlogging, underlogging, overmining, undermining, overgrazing, undergrazing and the list goes on and on that we all know to well. It seems in this day and age you have to be an opportunist to enjoy hunting public land regularly in Washington and Oregon.( That's why my moniker name is Opportunist). I don't blame the cattlemen permitee's or the contractor loggers for poor management of the natural resources as the forest manager's and politicians in trust of OUR land!

Limbhanger · 01-25-2006, 06:49 PM

I think ranchers are great, I like beef. I would like to say that I dont have the privilege of hunting private land. I hunt public land, so I have to plan, research and scout, then I have to out hunt the other hunters to find good spots and decent numbers of game. It is just a little irritating when you finally get there to hunt after all of that and theres cattle everywhere tromping things to mudholes, bellowing like mad and breaking every branch in town every time you come up on one. You cant hunt the Ranchers land because its locked up tighter than a drum, but you have to put up with his cattle on public land.
Its the system. Not the Rancher.