5th Grade Math

legal_layover · 01-15-2006, 11:08 AM

My son is in fifth grade and struggles with his math homework. A not uncommon problem from what I hear. The following is a quote from his teacher in repsonse to my complaint that he is not properly prepared for the work she sent home with him. This is her canned response:

" As a teacher, I try to teach my students that there are different wasys to solve a problem. I teach the concept. Memorizing algorithms and using them is not the only way to do math."

Is that teacher speak for: Don't blame me, I'm not responsible if you kid can't complete a long division problem when he gets to high school?

To the teacher's credit, she invited my son to stay after school on Tuesday and Thursday for additional help. Along with a number of other students. Is the fact that so many students require additional tudoring an indication that her method of teaching is ineffective?

Any teachers out there are welcome to give some input on this. My own thoughts are teaching the concept without the mechanics of performing the math is a problem. It's like expecting someone to desing a replacement for Bonnieville Dam based on the knowledge that water runs downhill.

Just_learning · 01-15-2006, 11:19 AM

Im not a teacher, but the only way that worked for me when I was learning math was repitition. Have him stay after school, but also sit with him and walk him through the problems. Math isnt something that you just learn after going over it once like history. If he doesnt get the concepts now, how is he going to understand the ones later down the road like algebra, geometry, and calculus? Math teaches people how to solve problems, by looking at things in the abstract form and taking different approaches. Much like real life. There is always a "right" answer, but learning and developing a plan to get it is the key. I took so much of it in college and rarely use anything above an 8th grade level math in my day to day life, even at work. Your sitting on an opportunity here to help your son out, besides he will thank you for it later in life.

Fast Water · 01-15-2006, 11:20 AM

That is exactly the method my Daughters 5th grade teacher is using.

It is refreshing IMO. After four years of mass number crunching she is getting to use her brain in other ways to figure out the math. It is not always "what is the correct answer". Sarah just went through a section on estimating where the teacher did not want the kids to come up with the correct answer as much as figuring out different ways of coming close without using a pencil.

It took my Daughter a month or so to figure out this new way, but she finally got it and is doing well.

happybrew · 01-15-2006, 12:21 PM

Interesting response from the teacher. I think a more balanced approach works better. One should know the algorithms and also know why they work, and be prepared to solve unfamiliar problems.

My daughter is in fourth grade and we homeschool her. She got to her long division homework before I had a chance to show her how. She developed a complicated algorithm on her own to do long division by 2's that worked and she could mostly do in her head. Needless to say, I was impressed and praised her. She then tried to apply it to long division by 3's, and it didn't work. We went over why it worked with the 2's, but not with the 3's. So she went and devised an algorithm that would work for division by 3. But like the first algorithm, it will only work on the 3's. It was similar to the algorithm for division by 2, in that she reduced the problem to a division by 2 problem. We discussed how her method would work for 4's, but not for 5's, 7's, etc. So I tried to teach her the standard algorithm for long division, which will work on all problems. She fought me tooth and nail and wouldn't do it. The multiple methods approach backfired on me. If she couldn't do the bulk of the problem in her head, she thought it was too hard. She had developed ideas about long division that did not apply universally, but wouldn't consider the usual algorithm because it did not fit the assumptions of the two algorithms that she developed herself. We will revisit long division next year, after her assumptions have faded, and have moved on to algebra and statistics.

There is a lot of educational software out there that can help your kid and is fun to use. I would recommend Math Advantage or Elementary School Learning System from Fogware, although that one requires a DVD-ROM on the computer. You can pick up both a Fry's, or Math Advantage from most retailers. Should run you 20-40 bucks for either. Fry's sells an older version for $20. You can pick up an expanded newer version from www.thelearningsystem.com for $40. Math Learning System covers all grades from basic addition through calculus.

legal_layover · 01-15-2006, 12:41 PM

Thanks for your posts so far. Instead of keeping my son after school, I am working with him myself to fill in the blanks.

Why? It was painful to watch him complete a long division problem by grouping numbers together in a long list and trying to add the rows of numbers and any other creative way to work the problem. And, he had like thirty of these problems to work in one evening. Would have took him hours and hours, resulted in high frustration and I'm thinking what's wrong with just teaching him how to do math "the right way?"

Hence, my involvement with how his teacher instructs the subject.

I don't think there is anything wrong with a balanced approach. But at some point in time you need know how to do the math and there is only so many ways to add two and two. It's interesting that the teacher's after class instruction deals with learning and repetition with algorithms which she admits is the solution to the problem. But, she spends her time during the normal class day teaching concept. Do you think this has anything to do with federal funding?

happybrew · 01-15-2006, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Do you think this has anything to do with federal funding?

It could. It may also have to do with what she has been told to do. In any large organization, individuals are only given limited leeway to do things their own way.

happybrew

matttheduck · 01-15-2006, 01:04 PM

i can completely relate. with my two kids, you can just tell that these numbers just don't make any sense to them. my son had a tutor for 1/2 the year last year (5th grade) and she helped him a lot. it's really a matter of finding the strategy that makes sense to you kid, how your kid learns, and etc. this can take a while to discover. might consider sylvan learning center (friend uses them) if $ aren't too much of a problem or some other regular tutoring.

legal_layover · 01-15-2006, 01:09 PM

Happybrew: True, but if it don't work, why keep doing it that way?

My neighbor is a high school typing teacher, she says most her students don't know how to calculate the number of words they type in a minute.

I'm a realor, most of the kids coming into the business today don't know how to calculate the square footage of a home.

I talked with my son's principal about math last year and she admitted she had to teach her kids math at home. It doesn't make sense that's why I'm thinking it must be money.

legal_layover · 01-15-2006, 01:12 PM

Mattheduck: Sylvan learning center in Clackamas?
I'm not against extra help even if I have to pay for the tutor. But, it doesn't make sense to me to have my son spend more time being taught in a way that I believe is problematic.

happybrew · 01-15-2006, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Happybrew: True, but if it don't work, why keep doing it that way?

Because someone's PhD thesis was involved somewhere along the line, and scholarly articles were written for an academic publication explaining the party line that must be followed, and now the square peg is being pounded into the round hole.

Public education has done enormous good for society, and teachers work hard. It is a fact of life, however, that efficiency is normally the first victim of politics. I think it speaks volumes that the teacher will put in time after school to teach the tried and true method, but use a more "modern" approach during class time.

happybrew

STGRule · 01-15-2006, 02:38 PM

Or you might look at it as the majority of the class is perhaps learning just fine and a few need the other option that includes after school and the basics. I can't learn by rote. That part of my brain doesn't function properly. I can only learn something by understanding why it works. Not just that it does. Since I can't memorize formulas, I HAVE to know how it works or I simply can't do it. I would have liked math a lot more if I'd been able to learn that way in class. I got A's all the way through, but I didn't like it much because I couldn't memorize and had to think up alternate means all by myself.

The Chub · 01-15-2006, 03:01 PM

Math Sucks!!

I remember when I was in college and the Algebra teacher told us that we had to estimate the answer. I was like, [petunias!] I just figured out how to do this crap right.

Fast Water · 01-15-2006, 03:18 PM

Yeah, what Ruth said.

I am of the non-integrated type that requires a mental if not actual picture of what is going on for the brain to fully digest the information.

An integrated learner requires only the straight text and their brain accepts this without much question.

I need to paint a picture in my mind to figure things out or even to read my books. If not I will lose retention of the information in short order.

legal_layover · 01-15-2006, 04:04 PM

All good points. Thank you.

happybrew · 01-15-2006, 04:10 PM

Quote:

I got A's all the way through, but I didn't like it much because I couldn't memorize and had to think up alternate means all by myself.

It sounds like you learn math the same way my daughter does. In an idea situation memorization and understanding come together. It's too bad we don't live in an ideal world.

I still think it's politics. The pendulum swings from one end to another in response to deficiencies in a particular area. People memorize but don't understand, so they push understanding. Then nobody has anything memorized, and have trouble understanding, so they push back the other way. It will change again for the next generation.

Then there are different ways of expressing the same idea... My oldest took a standardized test as part of placement for a private school. It expressed everything in terms of ratios where I had taught him to use fractions for the same ideas. 1/2 vs. 1:2. I think fractions are much easier to manipulate, and have broader application than ratios. It's also how I was taught. His test had no fractions on it, only ratios. Confused the heck out of him. That and other issues led me to continue with our prior curriculum.

I'm glad Legal Layover's kid's teacher takes the time to help those who are struggling. It could be that some are struggling. It could be that a lot are struggling.

happybrew

StickFish · 01-15-2006, 04:23 PM

I have to

for the teacher - it is hard now this day and age to get a teacher to offer this kind of help - JUMP AT THE CHANCE.

My 11 year old struggles with math - we work at it - I give her extra problems - found some great web sites for this to make it easy on me.

Home School Math

Thumper · 01-15-2006, 06:45 PM

Quote:

We will revisit long division next year, after her assumptions have faded, and have moved on to algebra and statistics.

So your daughter is going to take on algebra and statistics without a mastery of long division? I guess I am really out of date. When I was in school we learned how to do long division one way. The way that works. Every time. Nowdays it sounds like there are several ways to do it, but sometimes it doesn't work. Crazy.

I think math should be taught the old fashioned way. The way that works. Every time.

And if a student can't handle long division, they shouldn't move on to algebra and statistics.

Penobscot · 01-15-2006, 06:58 PM

"I'm a realor, most of the kids coming into the business today don't know how to calculate the square footage of a home."

I'm a graduated business student, most of the realtors coming into my home can neither spell nor type.

Don't get me started on realtors and square footage.

happybrew · 01-15-2006, 08:12 PM

Actually, Thumper, algebra and statistics do not require the use of long division provided the numbers involved are not large. Algebra in particular is mainly an exercise in logic, not number crunching. There is nothing intrinsic to the quadratic formula or other topics of algebra that would require the use of long division.

As far as ways that sometimes work and sometimes don't, that's what happens when you let a nine year old come up with their own way of doing it.

What can I say, except she's a strong willed child who got to the worksheets before I had a chance to show her how to do them. :tongue:

happybrew

STGRule · 01-15-2006, 08:27 PM

That's why of all the math I did, Algebra was my favorite. It actually worked the way my brain did. I bet your daughter does very well with it. The rude surprise was Calculus. Blech.

Cool Texan · 01-15-2006, 08:32 PM

I was the opposite. Algebra killed me in college.... 3 times (nailed a D on my 3rd time). Moved on the Business Calculus and never did worse than a 97 on an exam. Go figure.

STGRule · 01-15-2006, 09:10 PM

It really is how your brain works I guess. Algebra was fun, Calc sucked. Geometry was fun, Trig made my brain hurt. Luckily, real life for me is Algebra and Geometry. All the rest has a computer program to do it for me.

happybrew · 01-15-2006, 09:14 PM

Quote:

The rude surprise was Calculus. Blech.

Me too. That was a struggle. My favorite was Geometry and Analytical Geometry. Those were fun. Calculus was invented, not be Galileo and Leibniz as is popularly thought, but by Torquemada as a means of torturing heretics. I'm not a heretic, so I don't understand why I was subjected to it...

happybrew

STGRule · 01-15-2006, 09:18 PM

StickFish · 01-16-2006, 08:30 AM

Abstract Algerbra - wahoooo
Statistics - oh my - course it might have helped if I could understand the professor - my only C - then I went on to teach Statistical Auditing Principles for my employer - go figure

TheKing · 01-16-2006, 10:53 AM

The best friend a teacher and student can have is a parent that is involved. It think it is an excuse to blame the system or the teacher most of the time. Kids have to learn that that is life. The parents then teach the kid that there is more than one option and lots of resources available. Want to teach a kid math. Have them help design and build a barn, shop or home. Practical application makes ,more sense for most. Be creative and make it fun.

jvp · 01-16-2006, 10:58 AM

Math is practice practice practice. I ain't so bright but I got straight A's in math. It was always just do the homework, twice if it wasn't making sense. Good luck my kids wouldn't try hard at it and for them it was hard too.

legal_layover · 01-16-2006, 06:06 PM

I was also from the old school where there was one way to work a math problem. I wonder if their reluctance to teach a right and wrong way of solving a problem comes from the great social experment of "anything goes?" No right or wrong as long as you can justify or rationalize your answer.

As a result of some of your replys, I've decide to just continue to stay involved with my son's math learning and recognize where I need to fill in the blanks. I don't agree with my son's teacher. She doesn't think repetition and memorizing algorithms is an essential skill set. I dissagree and it is my responsibility that he is taught correctly. I just need to figure out how to stay one step ahead of his teacher.

Thumper · 01-16-2006, 06:31 PM

Quote:

I was also from the old school where there was one way to work a math problem. I wonder if their reluctance to teach a right and wrong way of solving a problem comes from the great social experment of "anything goes?" No right or wrong as long as you can justify or rationalize your answer.

Exactly. A sad period in our educational system, reflective of a lack of discipline in our society.

TheKing · 01-17-2006, 08:16 AM

Legal Layover,

It helpd me to get a copy of the math book they use. Our school does nto send them home just work sheets. I had to buy it on Ebay.

CATCH AND EAT · 01-17-2006, 11:32 AM

Quote:

I was also from the old school where there was one way to work a math problem. I wonder if their reluctance to teach a right and wrong way of solving a problem comes from the great social experment of "anything goes?" No right or wrong as long as you can justify or rationalize your answer.

Exactly. A sad period in our educational system, reflective of a lack of discipline in our society.

Got to agree with you two. As a high schooler I did fine in geometry, algebra I but algebra II was a different story. I just could not get the picture of how it worked without extensive help from the teacher after school and on a couple of weekends. Fortunatly I had parents that cared enough that I pass the class and traded some car repairs with this teacher so that I could GET IT and pass the class? 1st semester I ended up with a B and second semester I ended up with a C+, with the extra time invested I can only imagine what the grades would have been.

The problem then and the problem now is that teachers do not spend enough time teaching the theory rather than testing on it. My 17 year old daughter is having the same problems with AII and wanted to drop the class. We told her to stick with it even if she gets an unpleasant passing grade. We would do what we could to make sure she had the best opportunity to succeed. Needless to say she was upset that the easy way out did not materialize but our job as parents is not to be a best friend but to mold our child into a useful person in society. I personally have no use for leaches and users of the system.

Perhaps my point is that slowing down a technical class like Algebra II or any math theory class to where the children understand it is not a bad thing. There will always be those that just will never get it of course but I think a majority could respond if they are willing to be taught. The key is WIlling to be taught is'nt it? And of course parents to back it up.

legal_layover · 01-17-2006, 02:42 PM

The King: Great idea, I will try to buy the workbook.