Ochoco Elk hunters we have a big problem!

[BrianMaguire]

I found this out while fighting the extension of some grazing permits on the west side of the Paulina ranger district. The area I hunt has been overgrazed for years and the USFS wants to continue with business as usual, even on Elk winter range. We need to start making a big stink or we are going to get the shaft big time. Imagine waiting 8 years for a tag!

The problem I discovered is that the ODFW is aiming at decreasing the Elk population in the Ochoco by half current levels and they are well on the way to accomplishing this.

In the winter of last year there were an estimated 4600 elk in the Ochoco unit, in 2002 there were 5200. That is a 600 animal decrease. Now the REALLY BAD NEWS. The Management objectives are 2600 head. That is right the ODFW is trying to reduce the elk population further by 2000 head.

They say that damage complaints are the reason. If the USFS land was not so heavily grazed then maybe the elk would not go down on the private land.

Ochoco hunters need to speak up. You need to call the ODFW, you need to call the USFS, you need to write comments to the USFS on grazing plans (currently the Paulina ranger district west side allotment plan (86,00 acres)). There may be others plans as well. Also the Forest Plan is being redone in 2006 and we need to get vocal on this as well.

Contact:
Mike Lawrence - District Ranger
Ochoco National Forest
541-477-6900

Contact the local ODFW big game biologist.

[ 02-18-2004, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: BrianMaguire ]

[willametteriveroutlaw]

There is definately somthing that needs to be done about this. The ranchers get those grazing permits for very cheap and we get screwed out of our elk in the process.. This is great, if it isn't cougars its odfw trying to get rid of all of our elk.

[BrianMaguire]

Originally posted by willametteriveroutlaw:
There is definately somthing that needs to be done about this. The ranchers get those grazing permits for very cheap and we get screwed out of our elk in the process.. This is great, if it isn't cougars its odfw trying to get rid of all of our elk.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">On these particular allotments I am fighting against, the ranchers pay $1.38 per cow and calf pair per month. That's right $1.38 for 2 cows a month. Whats the point? My Elk hunting and my childs future elk hunting are being thrown out the door for $1.38 a head/month. I'll pay that per elk cow/calf pair a month. Sign me up for 75 head a month. Anyone else? The unit according to the ODFW has a carrying capicity of 10,000 Elk. BTW the Big bad 400+ head hanging in the ODFW HQ cam from the Ochoco in the 1980's. The unit has the potential to produce 400 class bulls if we would only let it.

[ 02-18-2004, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: BrianMaguire ]

[Spotted Owl]

oops.

[ 02-18-2004, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: sled19 ]

[Spotted Owl]

Not just Ochoco hunters ALL HUNTERS if they get away with it here who knows what they will try next. It's time we as hunter take some kind stand to were politicians and the odfw hear our concerns and our solutions. I just don't what kind of a stand that it would take to achive those results.

[Sharted]

Brian,

I appreciate your in depth report. It always is about the money! I believe the problem lies with the U S Forest Service, BLM and the land owners and not the ODFW. We should contact the OHA, RMEF, Oregon Bowhunters and any other organization that has lobbyist's who can approach these groups on our behalf.


I can remember many years ago when you were lucky to even see an elk in the ochoco's. If it were not for ODFW we would not have the herd's we have today in Oregon.

[garyk]

Welcome to the Malheur NF Plan.

In response to the cattleman's lobbyists and political pressure from then Rep. Bob Smith (R.) you'll note the adopted plan calls for something in excess of 90% of available forage to be utilized by cows. Not much left for anybody else.

Don't like it?

Oregon Natural Desert Association has been leading the fight against over-grazing and its members include biggame and upland hunters.

Like the bumpersticker says - "Did a cow get your elk?"

[Water Ready]

BrianMaguire,
Lots of hunters that read these posts, however your post should be printed and put at every Point of Sale. Any place a hunter may be able to see, a copy should be there. Just my .02, but can I make a copy, and get started? Or e-mail me with facts and will do my own. I don't hunt the Ochoco, but also know it won't stop here.

[dla]

Having only limited experience in the Ochocos, I was somewhat shocked at the number of moo-cows. I don't remember many places where I didn't see a cow patty. Similar experience throughout much of the Malheur with the added pleasure of bands of horses.

I'm wondering if they aren't exceeding the carrying capacity with just cows alone? I wonder if they even have a method of measuring the impact?

I wonder how much of this year's winter kill is due to moo-cow and horse grazing on NF & BLM land?

[B.J. Lilly Hunter]

The district biologist for the Ochocos is Brian Ferry. I am in the Redmond chapter of OHA, and we have gone rounds with this guy over the elk situation. [img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img] One of the problems I think is that half of the elk in the unit are now almost full time residents of private land. The land owners file all of these damage complaints, but won't let you hunt on their land, with out charging some exorbitant fee. This leads Brian Ferry to think that there are alot of elk, which there are but not on the forest. John Crafton is the State VP of OHA, and is very knowledgeable on this subject. Send me a pm if you would like to contact him about it.
Oh well, I did figure out how to shoot a decent 4-point bull with my bow comming off one of the big ranches into the forest. He was about 80 yards from safety when I got him.

Happy hunting, Chris

[gottafish]

I think you have this all wrong. they are complaining to get landowner tags. and damage controll tags. Last year during bow season many of the ranchers used horses and plans and drove the elk on to there land and then charged a 1000 bucks per hunter. In fact they were riding the fences to keep the elk in. I was approched by one rancher as I watched this and he told me he had about 200 head of elk in the canyon and I could get hunt them for 1000.00 for the tresspass fee and He would even let me use one of his horses to get my animal out. I called the tip line and the odfw and they said the would look into it, but for the next 6 days nothing changed. I also witnessed a small herd of about 20 elk try to get on public land and they were chased back by guys on horse back with rifles The fired a few shots to scare them back. this is happening all over that unit. Its a money maker and the state cops in that area are in bed with them. nothing was done to stop it.

[sliverpicker]

I hunt further east of the Ochoco's in the unit's surrounding John Day. Many of the areas we normally find elk in September were vacant last year, but after doing some snooping around we found the private property bordering the national forest to be crawling with elk, and unhuntable.

As soon as people start showing up for archery season and blowing their elk calls, the elk leave the forest for greener pastures where they're virtually undisturbed.

My hunting partner has lived his whole life in Dayville and Canyon City and knows many of the ranchers in the valley. If we don't draw the Walla Walla bow tags(7 pts), he's going to start talking to the ranchers about getting access to bowhunt.

dla mentioned the feral horse's in the Malheur National Forest. I've been bowhunting in Murderers Creek since 1984 and the horse population has increased steadily over the years. But as we speak the USFS is conducting a round-up on the west end of the Malheur, the South Fork of the John Day drainage in particular. The whole area is closed to access from 2-15-04 until 3-31-04. I understand the USFS is attempting to bring the horse population down to 100-150 head. Good luck!!! Personally, I would like to see everyone that draws a rifle tag for area be issued a "wild horse" tag. I know, I know, that would lead to problems. Just thinking out loud! [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]

[BrianMaguire]

Gottafish I experienced the same thing. I had a red headed guy come up early in the moring over the fence line. I was working a big 7x7 who was tending his cows. He was bugling and the guy litterally walked past me right into the Elk and drove them over the fence line. I reported it as well but I don't know if it actually illegal. The Antone (the ranch below) charges $10K to hunt Elk. Maybe a law where LOP tags can't be sold should be passed. Also a tresspass tax. If you charge $1k to hunt $500 goes to habitat or something.

[gottafish]

Brian this guy we ran into was on the other side. They went out about a week befor bow season with horses and a air plane and hearded in the elk they took 25 the first day of bow season off that ranch sounds like a canned hunt to me!!!

[6wapiti6]

Gottafish & BrianM,
we ran into the same thing last year in the ochocos. Right where you said! Guys on horseback & quads herding elk over a fence from the bridgecreek wilderness area....we guessed it to be about 75 head. When we approached one of them they said ohh...we were herding our cattle back on the ranch before riffle season! Yeah, their cattle are a mask for thier real cash crop..the elk!

[ellusivebull]

I don't hunt Oregon but I think I would start carrying my camera around my neck instead of bino's during archery season. Seams to me if you could get some good proof a guy might be able to do something with it. I haven't heard of anything like that in washington but I hunt on the westside. I am sure it probably happens here too.

[Bait O' Eggs]

I have witnessed the crew from the Antone ranch dumping off the top to push elk onto their ranch.

One of the few times I think a cougar would be good, maybe it could slip down there and disperse the elk off the ranch. [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]

[soupsamich]

What a way for a new ifish member to start out. This
has been bugging me since last season and I finally
have a place to vent, and a place for resources.

Sounds like everyone has close to the same story, but there is more. The land owners like the elk (not openly
to the ODFW, but its something they like to keep to
themselves). We spent a day with a rancher west of the Paulina ranger station, if you can call him that with
only 300 cows and something like 30thousand acres. When we went to
talk to him in july they were doing a damage control
hunt on his land and there were seven cow elk hanging
from a permanent meat pole in front of his house. All
the trucks parked there were from California. All he
has to do is complain to the ODFW that there are too
many elk on his land eating the food for his 300 cows
which at the time were grazing in the Ochoco forest
and he gets damage tags. He then sells them for a
couple of thousand dollars a piece. He said there were
14 tags total = $28,000.

Now comes the good part. He and the other ranchers
lease their land out to the guides during hunting
season, his payment for this is $50,000 plus trophy
fees, and this is just for the elk along with another
14 tags. There are also antelope and deer that are not
even counted into this mess. Two weeks before hunting
season several things happen. First of all the fields
are flood irrigated. This provides for a very nice
rutting spot for the elk. The rancher hones up on his
elk calls while sitting on his porch (its amazing he
has the time with 300 cows to look after). Then the
cows are called home. They are now at the furthest
point from his ranch in his part of the forest and it
will require quite a push to get those 300 cows home,
along with them happen to push the elk to the newly
irrigated pasture.

Now comes the best part. There are horse camps set up
on the fenceline with a month long party that keeps
the elk down on the property. The fences are patrolled
by horseback, chainsaws and gunshots are everywhere
along with screaming and yelling ranchhands.

Opening weekend we walked around the forest and saw
three deer and no new sign of elk. Nothing! Granted it
was hot and dry, but there were not even any fresh
tracks. We thought we would heed the ranchers advice
and walk the fenceline around day three. This is where
we found out the party and saw that the rancher was
not lying when he told us that the elk are trained to
cross through his cattle gate. That is where he told
us to sit and watch opening weekend because the gate
would be open. We figured that that part was a little
far fetched until we saw the freeway of elk tracks
through the gate from the forest to his neighbors
property who is all part of the same deal.

They killed 15 elk opening weekend on his property
alone during Archery season. This entire experience
made my stomach turn. I think some ranchers are/were
having a hard time making a living, but are now
finding a way to make it better for themselves. It is
at the price of those of us who enjoy the outdoors and all that comes with it. I would like to teach my children to hunt and respect
the land and ranchers who have this as their back
yard, but now I am feeling sorry for the land and animals and not alot of respect for at least this kind of rancher.

Sorry for the long post, but it really shocked me to
see and hear straight from the ranchers mouth what is happening. The north side of the forest is
no better with the planes buzzing overhead pushing
down to the land with what I would imagine is a
similar setup. There is actually much more to the
story but I think I've been a little long winded. I very much like the idea of them not being able to sell damage control tags. If the elk or deer are a problem and you need to control them to salvage your cows, then youre concern should not be to make money on elk, but to get them off your land so you can make money on cows. Just think about it, if they are willing to pay ranch hands to keep the elk in, those same ranch hands could keep those elk out.

[OK Deal Let\'s Fish]

Is it legal for these ranchers to sell the permits?

[B.J. Lilly Hunter]

They can sell there L.O.P. tags. But durring bow season, when it sounds like most of the herding incidents happend, They don't need any of these tags, because all the hunter has to do, is buy an archery tag.

[ 02-23-2004, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: B.J. Lilly Hunter ]

[Sharted]

It is my understanding that agricultural damage hunts are listed on page 20, of the Oregon big Game Regulations. Emergency hunt hunters are selected from a list of established hunters on a county by county basis.

Landowners are given a percentage of tags in controlled hunt areas under the landowner preference program. During the Elk seasons, they usually do not recieve the amount allotted to them in the regulations. Only so many tags are available to all the landowners in each controlled hunt unit.

As far as their techniques in harvesting animals I would say if I witnessed such an activity I would take videos , Inform the authorities of who, what and where you witnessed this. There are people who care in our State agencies. I am not familiar with the ranchers around the Ochoco's, but do have friends that run ranch's in eastern Oregon and would never even think of such activities.

[BrianMaguire]

WSoup, Thanks for the story. Right now the Paulina ranger district is in the scoping phase of the renewal of the "westside" allotments ~86,000 acres on 5 allotments. Including the area I think your rancher may be grazing, which incidentally is designated as Elk winter range and should not hav much grazing any way but it has the most cattle of any on the disttict. This is where the damage complaints come from - no winter feed (or summer for that matter). We need to get the USFS by hook or by crook to decrease the UAMS. The ODFW big game biologist won't say a thing but luckily the fisheries guy did stand up. We as members of the public have a right to have our concerns recognized by the USFS in this matter (grazing). I have been leaning on the OHA for help and it sounds like I may have been talking not to the wrong people but not the right ones to date.

Seriously those of us who hunt the Ochoco need to start acting now. The ODFW is already well on its way to cutting the herd in half and it is not the half that is on the private land.

[Silver Eagle]

Gentleman wasn't going to post but couldn't help it, I was with one of my boys and two other friends we were the first people to get "Master Hunter" tags, we went thru the first year of it with no calls, we had our tags along with one fellow from Portland for the Northeast Part of the state, In order to qualify for the tags we had a written test, Gun target test, interview etc.. a little different from what it is today, anyway we waited all the way thru the New Year and nothing, they were going to call us from headquarters when they had problem Elk, finally in Feb. I call the head office of ODFW and ask what was going on, they said for some reason no one had reported any damage areas, now the year before they had paid out 20 to 30 thousand for damage, so anyway they gave us the Northside Unit and told us to go hunting, we went up Bear Creek, hit the National Forest and that was it 4 foot of snow and no elk, we finally went to Ranger Station in John Day got ahold of the guy that was suppose to be in charge and he said there was some timber land we could hunt, but before this he gave us about twenty Ranchers that had had damage the year before, I call all twenty about half was gone or something and the ones I talked to told me the same thing, for some reason there were no Elk on there 20000 acres but there neighbor had some and they thought his boy was a guide and maybe I could get ahold of them and get permission, for a price. To make a long story short, got our elk, but the next year when they call told them to not put me on the list. End of story.........Sorry it took so long to get to the end.............Ray

[nrcamo]

sounds like a topic for bill monroe.

[Bait O' Eggs]

I cant see Bill writing the spin on the article I would like to see. Cant say I blame him, pretty hard to prove what is really going on out there.

I would expect an article stating the ranchers are experiencing damage (which could be verified by ODFW reports) and are given damage tags to help remedy the situation. Land owners sell the right to hunt on their place and use guides etc... to accomplish this. The landowner makes a little money to help offset some of his loss from damage. The guide makes a little money for his time. There would probably be a line or two about how cattle and elk are both competing for the same blade of grass and the it appears the cows are just eating their fair share.

I cant see the Oregonian taking up the sword and taking on the fight that the landowners are herding elk onto their places and charging people to kill the elk while keeping the general public at bay unless they cough up the tresspass fees along with trophy bonus fees. Dont expect the article to say how ranchers are paying 2 pennies a day per cow for public feed that is worth a lot more. Elk hunters are a tough breed and will buy tags and hunt no matter how bad the odds are, and the number of elk hunters wont change whether there are 2000 or 10000 elk in the the Ochoccos so the state makes more money with less elk and more cows because the cows pay $1.38 a pair per month. Why would the Oregonian want to have the subscriptions cancelled from the ranchers who would not like to be called out. And besides it is pretty darn tough to prove the ranchers herd elk onto their place and keep them there, they were just moving cattle when the elk went along with the cows. A lot of low down things are happening, it is just hard to prove, so it would be setting up a law suit if it was printed in the paper.

[blackdog]

I'm not sure about all the fenceline patrols and rounding up of elk, but the other parts are fairly basis for the rancher. Cut the number of cows that you're running, and what you are running, keep them on the national forest and let the general public feed them. Then back at the ranch, manage it for maximum game habitat. Plant good crops, make sure water is available, and keep out the cattle. Perfect recipe for attracting game. Then, in addition to all the landowner tags you're getting, complain that all the game that just 'happens' to be there is 'damaging' your ranch, and get additional tags to sell. Makes for a pretty simplified way to make money.

Of course, while they're making money, we (the general public) are taking it right in the shoot. Giving away grazing that pushes game off public ground then paying the ranchers to harvest 'our' game that's damaging their ranch.

All of this really sucks but it unfortunately looks like it's only going to get worse before it gets better. With more and more people buying up land to manage it strictly for this type of 'hunting', they and their money will keep the pressure on the ODFW, USFS, and BLM to make sure things don't change.

What are we to do? I sure don't have any idea.

[BrianMaguire]

&gt;&gt;What are we to do? I sure don't have any idea.

Get informed and get involved, please.

I started this thread so people would help my cause by calling the USFS and ODFW but any public land could probably use an advocate as well. If you hunt on public land that land is managed by an agency, USFS, BLM, etc. These agencies have forest plans that they are required to follow in how the land is managed. There are also grazing plans that dictate on a long term basis how an allotment (a group of allotments) are managed. Both the BLM and the FS have to take your comments into consideration when making a decision.

We/you need to get involved with your area. Call up the district ranger, let him/her know your concerns. Make sure you are on the project mailing list. Make sure you know when your forest plan is going to be redone. Make sure you know when the grazing plans are redone. Submit comments, talk to the local guy in your area. You may find what I am finding out and if so expose it. Join a conservation group, the best ones IMO in oregon are ONRC (Oregon Natural Resource Council www.onrg.org) or ONDA (www.onda.org). These groups focus on trying improve habitat on federal land, get more wilderness, and roadless areas (the stuff we like to hunt, etc. Email me if you have questions but please get involved if you feel helpless.

Get the forest/management plan for your area - call the USFS or BLM. Don't take no, if they say they don't have a copy make them dig one up.

Get grazing plans for your area - call the BLM or USFS.

Get the range cons field notes from the allotments, for the last 10 years, its funny how much better they become when you request them every year.

Get on the mailing lists. If a scoping period is coming up get your comments in and make sure your buddies are in.

If the BLM or USFS do not call you back or ignore you, escalate and start from the top. You will get action, they are required by the freedom of information act to supply any documentation. Don't be a jerk about things, the person may be on your side but then again they may not be. If you are nice they may accidentally give you the hanging rope. Take notes during your phone conversation.

[ 02-23-2004, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: BrianMaguire ]

[soupsamich]

Quite a bit of good information and takes on this subject. There were some other things that the rancher said that were interesting to us. I have not researched it to find out the exact details but here is what he said:

First of all, they have the option of having deer/elk scarers (I believe that they still use a shotgun shell that explodes in the air or something) to keep the animals off their properties or damage control tags. Of course they choose the tags.

Second thing to note is that most of the roads are closed to everyone except the ranchers in the national forest. They are given a colored sticker to place on the roof of their car/truck that shows they are the rancher with cattle in the forest. Thats all good, except that they use those stickers to look for lost cattle during hunting season gaining access to the back of their property and setting up camps. I'm sure that all this partying is fence mending.

Another funny (not so funny) thing was the master hunter that he had on his land fulfilling his good deed for the year and showing he is actually trying to get rid of the excess animals. He only allowed this hunter to hunt on the south portion of his land where only the antelope play and not the deer. He thought this was kind of amusing.

Its kind of funny how much these ranchers talk when you get them alone. They dont get to see many people and when they do they like to be heard.

Thanks for all the information, and I will definately be getting in touch with some of the right people.

[elkaholic]

Great discussion. I understand everyones thoughts and experiences quite well but I cannot lump all ranchers and private land owners into a pool of no good game stealing misfits. There are an awful lot of good stewards of the land (both theirs and the publics)that have done a lot for the game critters. I bet there isn't too many that would like the game to go away so they can harvest the last blade of grass. I do agree that there are circumstances and individuals that can cause excesses or misuses and they should be singled out. But I cannot just say "ranchers" and leave it at that, no more than to say "all hunters are slobs" because a few leave garbage, poach, trespass and leave gates open.

So, as a hunter and a person who thinks that landowners, including ranchers are what feed most of the game on a year round basis and I for one appreciate what the bulk of them do for wildlife and provide opportunities for you and I. Darn few places turn you down in the Ochoco's where I have hunted and most appreciate a little help pointing out where their stray animals are so they can get them out when they are supposed to. It even helps to offer to fix a fence or tell them about sick cattle, etc. I have found better acceptance for suggested changes(and cooperation)when I work with them versus adversarial confrontations.

I think some of these groups are working to get cattle off all public land versus working on the bad ones and we should be cautious to not be too judgemental.

My .02

[nrcamo]

well said, bait o' eggs.

[soupsamich]

elkaholic I agree with you. I guess that I should have also stated in my stories that this rancher did not seem to get along with his neighbors at all. Appearantly most of his own family does not talk to him anymore. Sounds like he took the solitude life of being a rancher and made it lonely.

His take on it was that there was plenty of grass up there for all. He believes (right or wrong) that his cattle are keeping the grass short and therefore preventing forest fires from spreading.

I'm sure there are more honest and fair than the other. Just like anything else, the bad ones stick out like a sore thumb.

[blackdog]

I don't think anyone is trying to lump all ranchers or landowners into a group of criminals and misfits, although it sure sounds like there are definitely some that fit that description. However, it's sad to know that we have a system in place in our state that allows ranchers and landowners to take advantage of a public resource to such a degree.

And while I agree that you can still probably find a ranch or two that will trade hunting rights for a little helping hand, that type of relationship is going the way of the dinosaur. More and more people are seeing the profits available through hunting and shutting out the general public.

[Bait O' Eggs]

I will certainly agree they are not all bad. I would love to find one of the good ones that liked trading fishing trips for hunting rights. Enjoyed swapping christmas presents, and didnt mind me coming over and helping with branding or what ever for chores a few weekends a year.

I also know I have ran into some that are just flat crooked.

My first introduction into hunting east was when a good friend went east on an invite to hunt with a bunch of Ochocco locals. I didnt go but got the first hand story when he got home. :shocked: The rancher turned his airedale dogs loose that were trained to chase elk and single out bulls. The dog would only bark when it was on a bull. If you heard the dog bark, run for the bark and be ready to shoot. The airplane in the sky was on the radio telling the hunters where the elk were. The closed roads that you couldnt drive, were all driven because these hunters were technically looking for stray cattle.

Not far from this rancher I have seen another rancher push the elk from the public ground to the private ground for fee hunters.

I know another rancher/wheat farmer, not in the Ochoccos but not far from there that has standing rules. If you are hunting his place and can see antelope. Range doesnt matter, if you can see them, you will shoot them, or at them, you will shoot until you are out of bullets, cant see the antelope or they are all dead. They think of them as fence busting varmit @&*(#$@&*. I suppose if I had to go fix fence everytime the antelope came thru I might get a bad taste for antelope. But this is a flat hatred for the animal. They get tired of feeding wheat to hundreds and hundreds of deer and have some extreme measures to run them off. Small caliber bullets thru the belly makes them run off and die some where else. I would have never thought of such measures unless they told me about it.

I hope my experience with ranchers is not the norm, but they have their own way of doing things. They are living in a different world.

I know most ranchers live in a predominately poor community, and are just trying to make a living on a piece of ground. It is easy to sit where I am and judge how they should be doing things.

I hope there are plenty of good ranchers doing the right thing. I know I have also ran into some real dirtbag hunters. Cant lump them all together, good and bad everywhere.

[BrianMaguire]

Originally posted by Bait O' Eggs:
I know most ranchers live in a predominately poor community, and are just trying to make a living on a piece of ground. It is easy to sit where I am and judge how they should be doing things.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Actually the vast majority of public land grazing in the west is not done by "poor" ranchers just scraping a living. The majority of ranchers may be poor but the majority of the public land grazing is done by the ultra wealthy (J.R. Simplot and the Packard (HP) family for instance. Many live out of state or are run by large ranching corporations. The guy who owns the Antone ranch now is a multi multi millionaire originally from California and he still charges $10k to hunt elk on his land and has video cameras around his property.

Here are some facts on public land grazing.

307,000,000 acres - total acreage of western public lands leased for livestock production

Total us cattle producers 1,600,000 - total in the west 180,000 or 11%

10,000 the approx number of unique individuals applying for either an elk, deer or antelop tag for the Ochoco unit in 2003

22,000 - the number of permittees on western federal lands in (on 307,000,000 acres) OR, WA, ID, MT, WY, UT, CO, NV, CA, AZ, NM

9.3% Percentage of BLM forage controlled by the top 20 BLM permittees.

Just 16% of all permittees control 76.2% of the AUMs on BLM lands.

The smallest 2000 permittees control less than .13% percent of BLM forage.

In 1994 the Department of the interior reported that the total elimination of public land grazing would result in the loss of 18,300 jobs or .1% of the West's total employment. Remember that 10,000 people applied for tags on the Ochoco alone last year.

Missouri grow more beef than Montana, Louisiana is a bigger cattle producer than Wyoming, and Vermont produces more beef than all of Nevada.

[ 02-24-2004, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: BrianMaguire ]

[Radke]

I never thought that 'my' Oregon would come to this. When I used to talk to my fishin buddy from Texas, talking about what a hunting lease cost, and how this was just normal, I thought it just didn't seem real. I guess it is becoming just as real here. :whazzup: How sad.

[nrcamo]

This statement had a complaint of libel from the person it was aimed at, and was removed. He wants you to know "This statement is patently false and I would appreciate its removal and informing the poster that they are welcome to contribute to the discussion and help the elk in the Ochoco but are unwelcome to promote their agenda by spreading lies."


Jen

[ 02-24-2004, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

[TheRogue]

Being born and raised in Rural Oregon, and having grown up running cattle on USFS grazing leases, I had to respond to some of this myself. Please believe me when I say that I DO NOT agree with the current LOP system. I like Colorado's Ranching for Wildlife better, where to get the LOP tags, they have to allow a certain amount of public hunting on their own land.

One thing struck me in particular...

In 1994 the Department of the interior reported that the total elimination of public land grazing would result in the loss of 18,300 jobs or .1% of the West's total employment. Remember that 10,000 people applied for tags on the Ochoco alone last year.

Missouri grow more beef than Montana, Louisiana is a bigger cattle producer than Wyoming, and Vermont produces more beef than all of Nevada.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Elk hunters come to town 2-4 weeks out of the year. Yes, that's generally worth 2 months of money to a lot of the businesses...but it's not the thing that keeps them going!! Ranches employ full-time people year around, and more part-timers during spring and fall roundups. Ask any small east-side town what is more important to the year-around livelyhood, and be prepared for the answer. After all, the "green" movement has already shut down most logging on the east side also.

As for the cattle themselves....well, every single mad cow case has come from a feedlot, where cows are crammed together and force-fed. So, if the American public wants to continue down the road of getting rid of free-ranging healthy beef, and consuming feed lot cattle, they should probably know just what they're getting into. Free-range cattle are, generally speaking, healthier, leaner, and have more flavor to their meat than a porked-up feedlot beef cow.

Let's face it, a lot of people in depressed rural areas survive on cattle, ranches, and and the money they provide. Not many do the same living on a couple of weeks of elk-hunting. $1.38 a pair is a lot better federal subsidy than a couple thousand a month welfare and health plan benefits to keep people up and running.

Yes, there are bad ranchers out there. I can think of one upriver from Juntura who chases elk with his airplane, and have heard first-hand reports of shots fired by his "hands" in the general direction of hunters near his fenceline. The Monument - Rudio Mtn. area has become a rich-man's paradise, where you pay big $$$ to hunt private ranches, which just so happen to landlock THOUSANDS of acres of public land. I detest these types of things. But, please don't lump everyone in with these people.

I know how it works, some of you will be bull-headed, and bash me until the cows come home (pun intended); some will begrudgingly say, yeah, he's got a point, and some might actually agree with what I have to say. To me, it's just another general broad attack on the rural way of life.

I'll gladly take my video camera and film people breaking the law, running animals, chasing hunters of government land, etc. Just let me know when and where. But I won't stand by while a good and valuable industry just gets stomped into the mud because of the generalizations made by a few people.


Bash away.

TR

[nrcamo]

thank you, jen. better said then myself. i appreciate your help.

[Maverick Maxcat]

I'm glad I'm not the only one concerned about Oregon's elk (and deer). Just so you know, we own a ranch in the Maury Unit, over 17,000 acres of grazing (private & BLM). It does give us a backup place to hunt, but we always put in for other areas to find better hunting!!!! I have talked with Brian Ferry, Prineville ODFW Biologist, for hours about these problems.

ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES---baiting, driving game, and poaching are major problems across the state. Every OSP officer I've talked with claims that the biggest animals they see are poached!! A couple years ago a camp of 16 hunters was checked just down the road. They had 3 animals down, all on private property, had cut fences to drive in, and only ONE PERSON had a valid tag!!!!! There was only one good bull (350 class) around the next year, and he was poached by someone with a tag for the Paulina unit. Fortunately, he was caught when he started to brag. Each animal taken illegally is STOLEN from the rest of us that play by the rules. We also have problems with aircraft driving animals, only from private ground onto public. Hunting is finding and patterning animals in their habitat, not driving them into country you can hunt. We have reported several aircraft to ODFW, and now use marine flares to warn aircraft that they are acting illegally. EVERYONE needs to help stop poaching, trespassing, party hunting, etc!!! If we can raise the fines and add jail time for illegal activities, maybe it would make a difference. Right now most violators only get a slap on the wrist. Anyone know a legislator??

HABITAT IMPROVEMENTS: Animals will go where conditions are best for them. The quality and quantity of feed on public ground has steadily decreased due to juniper/sage encroachment (fire control) and forest crown closure (no fire or logging). Private landowners spend lots of time and money to maintain and improve range conditions. Of course this attracts animals! If it wasn't for private land management, there wouldn't be nearly as much feed for the game as there is. Still, there are some who need more, and cross the line to baiting to attract elk. These folks should be prosecuted! The baits are only there for a short period, to help kill animals. Range improvements are there all year long, and the animals are there because they benefit all year long. If everyone volunteered time and/or money for habitat improvement we would all come out ahead.

PREDATION: This topic is very controversial, but the cougars are a major source of deer and elk mortality year-round. It is not legal, but every rancher around here has a permanent S.S.S. policy. A couple even offer private bounties! If hunters would unite to overturn the hound ban it would help a lot. The Government Hunter in this area killed 5 cats last year without a noticable effect on the population. Everyone should carry a cat tag at all times and use it if they can. Coyotes do more damage to deer than elk, but should still be controlled. If you hunt big game in an area, take an extra predator trip or 2. The game will thank you!

HUNTING PRESSURE: The last major problem is tag numbers. 90% of the animals live on private land, while 90% of the hunters are on public. There is nowhere except private land that the animals can get away! The tags should be allocated based on the number of animals on PUBLIC land, not the total number in the unit!!! As it is, every public-land animal out there is dead or on private ground in the first 2 days of the season. The Maury is an "opportunity" unit---that means it is somewhere to give hunters an opportunity to hunt. Bull and buck ratios are low, with almost no older (bigger) animals. The biggest bull we saw all last year was a weak 6-point, probably a 3 or 4 year old animal, and most are yearlings or 2-year olds. The overall bull/cow ratio is about 15%, according to ODFW, but seems lower. I just read about Arizona, where it's 60 bulls/100 cows!!! Let's reduce the tag numbers so people can have a quality hunt, without all the crowding and competition, and have a chance to get a nice animal. The landowners in this area are trying to do this privately by limiting the harvest to mature bulls and cows. Unfortunately, the elk move around enough that out-of-season poachers kill them as they get big.

I can't speak for all ranchers, of course. I'm sure there are some bad apples, like everywhere, and I would be glad to help weed them out. We have an agreement with a small group of people (6), allowing them to hunt in exchange for habitat improvement. They spend hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars each year to benefit the game. They have only killed 5 elk in the last 5 years, and no deer!! Everyone needs to help out like these guys. Join the Oregon Hunter's Association and get involved. Work to pass laws changing the practices you don't like, such as selling depredation tags. Push the Legislature to enforce the game regs, and make penalties for violations substantial. Help improve habitat, on public AND private land. Decrease the predator load. Until you have started to make a difference, you shouldn't complain.

[BrianMaguire]

This thread boils down to a simple fact. As a direct result of grazing and ranching in the Ochoco there is a decrease of public land hunting of elk and it is going to get much worse if nothing is done right now.

Either you are going to be an advocate for the elk in the Ochoco or you are not. If you are an advocate then something needs to be done about the grazing, the management objectives, the LOP system, and wildlife harassment. Plain and simple.

There is no easy solution to this problem and some parties are going to get hurt. Most likely its going to be the hunters who once again but if its the rancher then so be it. I am sick of being , I work hard all year to go hunting. Its the thing I work all year to do and if you think I am going to sit by while a millionaire from messes it up for me then you have another thing coming.

There are two sides to the issue and I am advocating for the hunting side based on fact and personal knowledge. I welcome discussion from all sides if a meaningful result can be obtained.


&gt;&gt;I like Colorado's Ranching for Wildlife better, where to get the LOP tags, they have to allow a certain amount of public hunting on their own land.

I think a new thread explaining and discussing this would be a good start at reforming Oregon. Thanks for the idea.

[ 02-25-2004, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: Rauly ]