Training my lab, HELP!

[steelhead22]

I am having a little trouble with part of my training. My pup is a chocolate lab male that is now about 8 months old. He heels well, sits and comes on voice and whistle well, marks and retrieves marks well at up to 50-75 yards (we're still working on it), and has been steadied (not to shot yet, but that's coming soon when I get a .22 blank pistol). One of my biggest concerns with my dog is that he will come back to me, EVEN IF THAT IS RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF A RETRIEVE. Sometimes I hunt big water and I don't want him chasing a crippled out into the middle of the lake to where he can't make it back. Anyway, I can't seem to get him to stop on a retrieve. I blow a single whistle blast, and he'll slow down, but his desire to retrieve is so that he just keeps going. I know he know what to do, and he sits on whistle very well if he's close to me, I just can't figure out how to make him do it at a distance. Should I get on e-collar? Should I not worry about it yet and introduce it in a few months when we start on handling (Back, Over, etc.)? I'd like to start now, so that it become routine, whenever he hears the whistle he stops what he's doing and looks at me. How do I get him there?

[ 02-15-2004, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: steelhead22 ]

[fishinpoor]

steelhead.there are a couple of ways to get him to return,the best is of course is an e-collar,the other is a long check cord 50 foot or so,bring him in with the cord as you call/whistle enough reps and he will return.any more help feel free to email me.i just happen to train labs for a living.fishinpoor

[Chromaflage]

A word of caution here - what you are trying to do will come in time. If you train your dog to stop in the middle of a retrieve, he may think it's ok to do so on a retrieve that he should stay on line for. I have found two things that are the most difficult - 1. take a determined dog off a retrieve, and 2. honor other dogs. This is especially true at the puppy stage. I'd be re careful here.

Re the .22 thing - hopefully, he's been around gun shot and has put together the throw-shoot-retrieve thing. This is a fundamental step. Dont' worry about steadying to shot - that's probably one of the easiest parts. He needs to associate the shot with a retrieve - that prompts him to mark.

From my experience is all....

ORS

[salmurai]

Get him a pfd of his very own(neoprene vest), keep him in shape, and shoot just the close in birds!

[adfluvial angler]

I'm with fishinpoor. I used a 40-50' lead for my black lab. It worked very well. In fact, I liked it better than the e-collar.

If you haven't already done so, try this ... it will give you more credibility with him when you use the lead. Bring him to heel on the lead (long or short), then walk away from him until you are at the end of the lead (he should not budge, if he does, go back to the sit command), then turn around and face him. When you''re ready (not the dog), say HEEL and yank him with the lead. Keep yanking until he is at heel and then say SIT. The way I was taught to do this, you don't give the dog a chance to come on his own, you are applying pressure as soon as you say HEEL ... kind of like force fetching. Start out at close distances then work back to 20, 30, 40', whatever you have room for. If your dog is like mine, you'll only have to yank him 2-3 times, then he'll beat it to your side before you can pull the lead tight.

Some other tips about long leads:
Wear gloves so you can STOP the 75# dog that is running full tilt.

Don't get your legs (or the kids') wrapped up in the lead.

Do this drill with a training partner who is sending their dog on a retrieve.

Not a pro but I've been there, hope it helps.
aa

[k9jeff]

An E Collar will work for the return, call off and call back. Follow the instructions and tain yourself how to use it first. Its a neat tool, but can be used incorrectly. Good luck.

[fishinpoor]

K9,very good point,you must understand how and when to use the collar,also the dog needs to be conditioned to it,you can't just put it on the dog and start pushing buttons,he has to wear it for a while to get used to it,then he must be taught the command along with the collar.(i let my dogs pack a dummy e-collar for several months,start out with a few minutes a day and build up,take it off put it on,then when the time comes for the first stimulation he won't associate it with that collar)a very reliable tool when used correctly.fp :smile:

[FishinTechnician]

Redside makes a good point. Be careful with that whistle if he is in the act of retrieving. At his age you don't want to do anything that disrupts his wanting to make that retrieve. Sounds to me that you have to do some more drills on stopping on single whistle blasts, but don't do it at this point in conjuction with a retrieve. If he's not stopping when you command him to do so you need to correct him by running out there and reminding him what you want him do. Yeah it takes a little effort, but nobody said it would be a walk in the park. Personally, I have never used shock collars and would be reluctant to do so. In the wrong hands they can be damaging. I've seen dogs so afraid that they're going to get shocked that they run around with their tails between there legs.

[Chukrchaser]

Regarding e-collars - if they are a tool --- do you always wear your tape measure or hammer on your hip? -- they are tools -- but once you are through with them you put them away. E-collars (doesn't that sound nice?)almost always become a permanent part of the hunting gear. Even the trialers keep the collars on -- doesn't look or sound like a "teaching tool" to me.

I have trained professionally years ago and have used collars -- but -- the only one dog out of a hundred or so I have trained (20 of which I resorted to a collar) had to stay in the collar while doing bird work -- I gave the guy his money back -- because I believe I failed to do the job correctly.

I agree with the comment that a quick sprint to the dog for correction and hours of "yard work" can resolve an awful lot of issues. Besides -- at 8 mo. old -- think 16 year old boy -- between hormones and immaturity Pooch has enough on his mind -- let him advance a little slower right now -- it's a long time to October.

[steelhead22]

Thanks for all the advice. I will definitely five that 50 ft. lead a try (can't believe I didn't think of it already). BTW, I've trained him without the use of the command STAY. When I tell him to SIT, he'll sit as long as I want pretty much. If I'm in his sight, he'll wait there forever (as long as it takes me to get to the other end of a football field). I am definitely reluctant to use the e-collar, so I apprectiate the alternatives. He has never been struck, except small taps on the behind when learning to sit, yet if you raise your voice and say NO! he cowers a little. Not a shy dog by any means, but very, very responsive.

fishinpoor- I sent you an email. Thanks a lot for offering. BTW, I was looking at your profile, what kind of Smokercraft do you have and how do you like it. I'm looking into them for next season.
On this same subject, do any of you have any interesting (or not) drills for a young pup. Especially drills for the basics (SIT, HERE, HEEL) I do normal drills, but it just gets boring walking around and around the football field keeping him at heel, then having him sit. Walking away and saying HERE or blowing the whistle. He gets bored and I get bored.

[ 02-15-2004, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: steelhead22 ]

[mcknerkneykak]

I consider pulling a dog off a "hot" retrieve to be advanced training. Like Or. Redsides said and Chukrchaser put so eloquently- "too much too soon".


Sounds like you had a heck of a first season with this dog.

[Chromaflage]

SH22 - I just noticed that you're in Gladstone. I know a guy out there who bought one of my pups - in fact, he's a good friend of mine. His pup is 10 months old. You might even know him or have seen him in the park over there - first name is Jerry and dog's name is Ring. He might be willing to hook up with you and play dogs if you're interested.

ORS

[steelhead22]

ORS- I haven't met him, but would definitely be willing to. I normally just go over to our local middle school football field to train, or down to Meldrum bar or Mary S. Young. What kind of dog does he have and where does he normally train at?

mcknerkneykak- I haven't taken this one yet, but this season was horrible with his mother. I can't get the dog to come back to me when she is on a retrieve. Almost lost her because of it in Sturgeon Lake when a cripple took her WAY out to the middle of the lake. I can't blame her, she didn't get the time she deserved. I was away at college and as a result she was trained very little. My first dog I trained while in high school. She was AWESOME! Unfortunately, she was hit by a car right after I left for college in 1999. Anyway, I have time now and I'm making sure I do it right this time.

[ 02-15-2004, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: steelhead22 ]

[Chromaflage]

SH22 - he's got a black lab and works his dog at the grade school (I think) in Happyrock. I'll run it by him.

ORS

[steelhead22]

fishinpoor- I don't know what the deal is, but my hotmail account isn't letting me send mail. In fact, I can't even get a cursor on the screen to type an email. Wierd, I can fill in the TO: and SUBJECT: sections, but it won't let me type an email. Thanks for the email and I'll reply as soon as I get this all figured out.

[James in Idaho]

Teaching your dog to stop and return on a retrieve is a basic drill, and at 8 months your dog is most likely ready to return. Find a retriever club in your area, and get with someone who knows what they are doing to help you. Yes, I strongly recommend e-collars, if you think of it as a long check cord, and USE it that way, you won't screw up the dog. The new e-collars are a long way from the one's even just 10 years ago. Teach everthing on a leash first. But slipping whistles is a major fault in my book, your hunting will be much more enjoyable if you can control your dog, even if you need to use "power steering" on him/her when she is young while hunting. To many of us spend 9 months a year training a dog, and then allow 3 months of hunting to untrain the mutt. I also force fetch, force kennel and force here. There are lots of good books/tapes/internet resouces to explain all of the above, just stay away from Wolters and Tarrent. The Tri-tronics book is good and real basic, so is anything by Mike Lardy.

[mcknerkneykak]

OK- basically this is the way it is. If one can train a retriever without an E-collar, an E-collar is a powerful tool. It is a time management tool. Whatever "trick" we were tryng to teach "Rauly" takes half the time. If one can't train a retriever the old fashioned way, an E-collar isn't going to make one a better trainer. Having said that, I've made every mistake in the book. One can memorize the instructions, watch the videos, and read the books but there is still a heck of a learning curve. Fortunatly, these hard-headed,aggressive, waterfowl retrieving machines are pretty forgiving. E-collars Rock!

[ 02-17-2004, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: mcknerkneykak ]

[Lured In]

steelhead...there are things your dog simply hasn't learned yet and perhaps should not be held accountable for outside of a training situation.

Your concern regarding long retrieves on big water are valid; however, if you are anything like myself (paranoid about my super pooch ), the concern may be unwarranted. At his current age, your pup will be 1.5 years old by the beginning of next duck season. At that age (if properly conditioned) a 300 yard water retrieve will be some excercise, but probably not too difficult.

I watched my little girl at the same age pull a couple of these off this year. While certainly not the ideal in terms of shooting prowess, this is where dogs become the ultimate conservation tool.

As mentioned earlier, as you teach your pup to handle it will learn that it will need to whistle sit remotely, even when pumped about a retrieve.

I persnonally don't believe that you should incorporate this command (remote whistle sit) into your marking drills, until the dog has been force fetched and begins to handle (casting).

I believe the issue you are dealing with has less to do with training than with the fact you are hunting with a young dog. Give the dog some time and work the drills the dog will need to be successful next year and you won't have a problem.

Good luck. (