Just back from the Blacktail Meeting....Grrr!

[tailchaser]

I honestly haven't been this mad in a while over proposed ODFW changes and I wasn't alone. They showed a lot of slides in a PP presentation trying to setup their ideas but it didn't work very well.

The first thing that got everyones attention was their idea to change the general buck (rifle) season to any visible antler deer. I'm going to print what they think is going to happen by doing this straight from thier presentation:
-This will increase the harvest of bucks
-Increase harvest of spikes
-Decrease buck/doe ratios
-Increase survival of older bucks
-Increase Hunter success
Am I freagn missing something or are four out of five of these things we're trying to fix, not dig deeper into the hole!! Out of roughly 30 people there not a single one was in favor of this. It was absolutely amazing. Out of the three options in changing the seasons he asked if any of them were a viable option. No one agreed that any of them would help whatsoever and it wasn't an opinion swaying either way. Mostly because every option included the visible antler, and none of them included a point restriction. Simply amazing. They want to impliment this for 5 years and have a mandatory check in. They all agree it would nail the population, but thier reasoning would be to gather useful data by the mandatory check in to impliment another way after those five years. Guess what, after five years of doing this that implimentation is going to be a DRAW!! Because they've dug a hole so deep it's the only way out, just like E.Oregon became.

Secondly this topped it off....They have proposed having the late archery season becoming a draw only hunt and restricting it to 2+ or better. They tried to show graphs of how the mature buck harvest is well above the general bow season. Ummm that's not a surprise. They obviously haven't tried to sneak up on a wary 4pt during September. So they showed all of these scenarios how it's become a luxurious hunt. However, I asked how many mature bucks are killed right now (2+) in the general rifle season approximately. They said between 23-26,000. Guess how many were killed during the late bow season by thier survey. Umm 650... The total deer harvest of does and bucks were only 1000. But they want to restrict hunters and put a point restriction on this hunt!!! I told him even though it's not his fault that this is exactly why odfw looks plain backwards (in a couple other words). It's almost like they've looked right past thier opportunity to restrict some harvest on the rifle hunts, but plan to restrict a hunt that only takes 1/25th of the other one does??????Bascially the conspiracy theory is starting to work it's way into the minds of ODFW against bowhunting because enough rifle hunters have complained. This is why the archery panel is being put together also as stated by a panel member at the meeting. Why don't rifle hunters realize something. The amount of time getting to hunt means absolutely nothing in the total number of animals killed compared to rifle seasons. I saw one statistic a couple of years back that the total number of elk killed during bow season didn't even amount to the amount killed in one season from the Ochocco Unit alone for one rifle season.

Everyone left this meeting feeling pretty peeved and unsure of how things are going to end up. One of the viable options a local brought up was to get rid of the dang antlerless hunts all together and it was about the only thing supported by everyone. I'm still steaming from this so I gotta go for now.....

tc

[ 02-11-2004, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: tailchaser ]

[2LEYS]

I have a wild idea on how to help the Black Tail populations.

Bring back either dogs or bait or both for cougar and bear.

I know, I know. It sounds crazy but maybe it is just crazy enough to work.

[Washington Hunter]

I would try to see it their way as they are the biologists and they are the ones with the education in this field. They are getting paid to do this, why not let them do their jobs? As far as the any buck thing...I have read many articles that support the theory that killing young deer is the right thing to do. The young deer are the surplus in the population. They are the animals that will die off in the winter anyway, or get eaten by a predator. The spikes are the surplus animals. Taking more of them will get more hunters out of the woods sooner and allow the bigger bucks to live longer. Antler restrictions really are not the answer when managing for healthy populations of deer. The best way to boost the population is to limit the number of hunters, either by limiting access in some way, or by limiting the number of tags, or both. Making archery hunting by permit only seems to be a good thing in my mind also. I would suspect that the number of animals killed by bowhunters is much higher than what is reported. There are many slob hunters who take any shot they get within 100 yards. I would not be surprised if some of these guys kill 2 or 3 deer for every one they recover. Making it by permit only would keep just the serious guys in the game and eliminate a lot of the idiots, IMO.

[Bait O' Eggs]

If they get the population low enough they will be able to justify a limited entry like the east side

Todays spikes are our future mature bucks. Wipe out the dumb spikes today and in a couple years there wont be many mature bucks to do the breeding. [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]

To many hunters objective is to just shoot a deer no matter what it is. (I dont call them hunters with that attitude but thats my opinion)

[ 02-12-2004, 07:09 AM: Message edited by: Bait O' Eggs ]

[Bounty Hunter]

I think they need to spend more time worrying about habitat and cougar predation, and less time worrying about changing the seasons. The only thing I don't like about the current situation is the bow-hunters that road hunt in some eastern units, but that is more of an enforcement issue.

[tailchaser]

One of the very first things that came out in this meeting is that any changes to the hunting season probably won't make a difference in deer numbers. Habitat, predators, and disease all come in way way before any hunting aspects. We're probably less than a 10%. So my initial thought was why in the heck are we here then???? I tried to bring up the bear thing about allowing longer seasons, unrestricting tag numbers for the spring hunt, etc..... but thier response was "we'll be having a discussion about bears in the spring. Please bring your comments at that time."

The studies that people are talking about are mostly from Whitetail states where they allow a multiple deer harvest with every tag. Instead of bagging two mature bucks they're pushed to nail one young one. Naturally, there will be more mature bucks running around when there aren't people killing two or more of them a year. Therefore, those studies fail to tell you everything. They show you what they want, in hopes to push thier ideas. I've seen what the any antler idea has done to the E.Oregon unit I like to hunt in my younger years. Now that everyone has shot every buck in sight the only ones hanging in camps now are spikes/forks with an occassional 3 pt. I don't believe this is an answer.

tc

[Water Ready]

In our neck of the woods, the bioligist as you may call them have created the problem 10 fold. :shocked: Ranchers success and dollars comes from managing the herd. Mis-management(sickness, in-breeding, disease) causes bankruptcy. Not so much in dollar loss as in animal loss, but both happen and your still Bankrupt. Pretty sure all noticed the fee hikes. I have been a blacktail Buck hunter all my life, untill a few years ago. The cost to go "HUNT" a qualified buck is probably close to the cost of a Safari hunt in Africa. I do not donate my tag fee's any longer because of bad herd managent. The bioligist idea of management in the Alsea unit,and many others, has taken a huge toll on that population. They choose to call it hair-loss, I call it bad management. For Years, They allowed doe hunts(draw tag)plus a general season buck tag) to happen. I call it flock shooting! As many as 5500 xtra tags for many years in the Alsea unit alone. in their defense, it has now been dropped to 500 + general season buck tags. (Just a little to late)
You cannot kill the fawn factories if you expect a healthy herd to continue or any for that matter. [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]
In-breeding has made them all smaller and weaker, and they develop disease, allowing cougars and coyote's to catch with out even a work-out. Then you add the fact cougar numbers are growing at a tremendous rate and I am sure these bioligists have not factored that in either. So as tag sales go down, cougar populations increase, fee's will climb again. Somebody must pay for the over-paid and educated. If you really want to begin bringing herd populations up, Hire a rancher! Someone that actually manages herds and are profitable and productive.
Archery hunter, rifle hunter, rock thrower, spear hucker. The agenda is not about hunters, it is about letting it all be done naturally! Letting nature take care of itself. We'll call it Enviromentally Friendly, politically correct hunting and fishing. [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img] (I won't bring up Sealions)
To my knowledge, the bioligist work for us and are our employee's. Make them accountable or get them fired! Won't really matter though, cause if they keep going the way they are going, no revenue from tag sales means "No Job"! It will keep the game officers busy though. Irony at it's best would be "jobless-bioligist busted for shooting at mechanical deer". [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]
The one thing that Odfw "manages" well is how to breed" bad attitude!
I'll get down off my stump now! (can I say stump?)

[Luckybill]

Am I missing something here, I understood that spikes are inferior bucks, that need to be harvested. I have read that is why spikes are allowed to harvested in Eastern Ore. I got the impression that a buck should fork the first year he grows horns. In addition I don't know much about IN Breeding :shocked: but as far as dogs are concerned it actually improves the blood line!!

[tailchaser]

There are two sides to the coin....one, how do you get any older bucks by shooting all of the little ones??? If both ages are targeted during a rifle hunt how are you keeping one from getting killed over the other one? For these studies, read my earlier post.....I can't believe that odfw buys into this stuff. There's a reason why so many units in E.Oregon are down on mature animals. My good friend that's OSP worked the Silvies unit this year for deer rifle. He checked over 400 deer. Only a single one made it just over 24" and there were only a handful of 4 pts. 15 years ago, we had 9 hanging in camp and not a single one was under a large 26" 3 pt. They have since allowed spikes to be shot over there. Tell me again how opening up spikes has helped this unit?? Limiting harvest in a large way is the only way this is going to be solved. We pretty much have to bite the bullet, not shoot spikes.

tc

[BrianMaguire]

Originally posted by Bounty Hunter:
I think they need to spend more time worrying about habitat and cougar predation, and less time worrying about changing the seasons. The only thing I don't like about the current situation is the bow-hunters that road hunt in some eastern units, but that is more of an enforcement issue.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">I totally agree. The Paulina ranger district on the Ochoco is just starting the EA process to renew the grazing permits for 1/2 of the district. This include 1/4 of the Elk winter range on the Ochoco and althought the ODFW biologist agrees with me that the grazing has been way to heavy, do you think he would actually say that. Nope too political to call cows bad for Elk. Then you get the standard ODFW line "We don't manage habitat on Federal land (1/2 the state). C'mon

[bigamefisher2]

I can agree with everyones opinion here. Too many variable to choose from.....Here is what I think they should do......Make each unit in the whole state drawing only....limit the tag numbers according to each untis population, not exceding 350 max tags for units with high populations....double app. fees....take half and use it for habitat restoration......do this for 10 yrs. Keep the point system going though that way every hunter stands a chance. Make each unit buck only fork or better. No antlerless hunts. 1 rifle season for the whole state. 21/2 weeks long. Let the bow hunters do their thing. Muzzle loader hunts same length as rifle. Bring back agricultural hunts (when desperately needed). That way the animals get the chance to do their thing. Oh yeah....allow bait and dogs for cats and bear.....year round. Then if anyone gets caught poaching.....stellar fines AND jail time...even for first offenders. And if you get caught take away hunting privlages for good. Just my .02 worth.

[Grip It-N-Rip It]

Washington Hunter My question is this?

If we shoot the younger bucks and let the older ones live, and you say the younger bucks are the surplus and they are what the lions and bears feed on and we go dive into there (the cougar and bears) food chain and start killing there (the cougar and bears) surplus deer instead of them what exactly do you think that the cougars and bears are gonna start feeding on? Chicken maybe??
Cougars are a very efficient hunting machine. They don't count points before they feed they just do it. It is what is bread into them, same with bears and yep bears kill plenty of deer to.
You need to hear ODFW talk before you say they know what they are doing I have left the local office shaking my head more than once due to some of thier EDUCATED comments. I could only hope WDFW isn't near as bad!!!!!!

[Blue Tip Spinner]

we need more hunters and fisherman in the ODFW, and less urbanites. plain and simple. i know of only a handful of people that work for the odfw that actually hunt and fish.

[Water Ready]

Glad you pointed that out grip-it. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] My post was long enough, and did'nt want to throw in the Washington thing.
By all means, I am not as well educated as those in the rooms that biology is being taught, or the books that they read. And as far as geting paid to do it, they should be fired, just for lack of skill in the enviroment they work. :whazzup:
I live in the foothills of the Cascades, and used to look out my backyard and see many deer. I have not saw a deer in 3 years. A few tracks in the back of my property, but no fur. :depressed:
I do not or will not shoot the fawn factories. I raise beef cows, and in order to produce, I must have cows and heifers to continue.
I am not sure now if there is an answer, other than close it all for awhile, and give all our dollars to game enforcement officers to eliminate the illegal hunting. Plenty of other species out there to hunt and fish for sport and food. Leave the deer alone for a couple years and see what developes. Also, bring back the DOGS!
Sorry, I hopped to the next stump. :tongue:

[Washington Hunter]

The WDFW does not limit mule deer hunting in any way, like Oregon does with the permit system, although we do have a 3 point minimum for mule deer. Blacktail is mostly any buck, except for a couple of units that have a 2 point minimum. Cougars are definitely a problem and need to be dealt with. The other problem is hunters who are not willing to give up anything. This is the problem the fish and wildlife departments have to deal with..trying to keep everybody happy. Can you imagine how hard that must be?

I agree with bigamefisher2 proposal.

[Norm]

I'm glad you took time to attend, I'm a little ashamed I did not. It's sounds like they are not willing to attack the real problems, and are instead going after the bow hunters which make up the lowest percent of the harvest. Rifle hunter make up ~95% of the total harvest. I think we would see results in 3 or 4 years by just stoping the doe hunts and making all seasons fork or better. Any damage controll hunts involving does should go to the youth hunters. The visable antler deal is BS, since we all know how dumb yearling are.

[dla]

tailchaser: Glad you brought up the obvious - hunting is NOT the issue. It is not the primary impact on blacktail herds.

I'm really tired of allowing biologists to micro-manage public access to hunting like it some kind of research project. I think this is the primary reason that Oregon Hunting is in such a steep decline. Oregon has sucky deer hunting opportunity.

By the way, spikes are not inferior. They're just bucks in the making.

[dla]

I'm pretty sure that an adult cougar will kill a deer a week. I know they are also pretty good at finding fawns.

I have a feeling that Coast Range cougars have much smaller territory and there are more adult cougars than biologists know. I know full well they can't count them.

[TheRogue]

Habitat is the number 1 issue, simple as that.

No logging on Federal lands in the coast range, deer don't live in heavy timber.

Logging continues on private lands in the coast range, but the companies spray heavily to control the brush...deer are browsers, not grazers. Lots of grass is great for the elk, not good for the deer.

Ask yourself a couple of questions:

1. Is the number one priority of the ODFW to manage for the healthiest deer herd, or the highest harvest?

2. Which ranks higher on the ODFW priority list, complaints by hunters there's not enough deer, and that does should NOT be harvested.....or by private ranchers, farmers, and timber companies, that there's too many deer, and best way to reduce the populations is by killing the does?

I, personally, don't know the REAL answer to these 2 questions.

I do know that if you continue to restrict rifle hunters, the number of bow "hunters" will increase exponentially every year. I know I came back to bow hunting after a 8 year hiatus because I wanted to be able to spend time hunting on the east side on a regular basis.

As for "trophy" hunting, I've always felt this is a dangerous trap to get into. Groups like PETA use this to our detriment all the time. Having the attitude of only shooting tropy animals kinda negates some of the arguements we use to justify hunting, such as herd health, eating high-protein low fat meat, etc. I don't have a problem personally with holding out for the big one, I passed on a lot of does, spikes, and one little forky with my bow this year, hoping for Mr. Ed to come along. I just don't think you should base all hunting on this.

My .02

TR

[dla]

Regarding ODFW's job, this might help: http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/496.html

496.012 Wildlife policy. It is the policy of the State of Oregon that wildlife shall be managed to prevent serious depletion of any indigenous species and to provide the optimum recreational and aesthetic benefits for present and future generations of the citizens of this state. In furtherance of this policy, the State Fish and Wildlife Commission shall represent the public interest of the State of Oregon and implement the following coequal goals of wildlife management:

(1) To maintain all species of wildlife at optimum levels.

(2) To develop and manage the lands and waters of this state in a manner that will enhance the production and public enjoyment of wildlife.

(3) To permit an orderly and equitable utilization of available wildlife.

(4) To develop and maintain public access to the lands and waters of the state and the wildlife resources thereon.

(5) To regulate wildlife populations and the public enjoyment of wildlife in a manner that is compatible with primary uses of the lands and waters of the state.

(6) To provide optimum recreational benefits.

(7) To make decisions that affect wildlife resources of the state for the benefit of the wildlife resources and to make decisions that allow for the best social, economic and recreational utilization of wildlife resources by all user groups. [1973 c.723 §6; 1993 c.659 §2; 2001 c.762 §6]

[BrianMaguire]

Going with the ORS statue are the oregon administrative rules governing how the ODFW is supposed to do thier job

&gt;OAR 635-415-0015 states "The Department shall work with regulatory and
&gt;planning agencies, land management agencies...to implement this Fish and
&gt;Wildlife Habitat Mitigation Policy. " "The Department shall provide
&gt;mitigation consistent with the goals and standards of OAR 635-415-0025
&gt;for Department development actions that impact fish and wildlife
&gt;habitat." "The purpose of these rules is to further the Wildlife Policy
&gt;(ORS 496.012)"

http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/rules/...5/635_415.html

[BrianMaguire]

From what I have experienced I do not believe that the "The Department shall work with regulatory and planning agencies, land management agencies...to implement this Fish and Wildlife Habitat Mitigation Policy. " Namely the USFS, BLM, USFWS and Oreogn Department of Forestry who actually manage the majority of the land in this state. By not doing the department in not just "doing their job" but is in fact violating the law and can be sued to be forced to follow the law.

[ 02-13-2004, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: BrianMaguire ]

[Jignfloat]

WDFW certainly is no better. If anything, they are just farther down the road ODFW is heading down. Managed for high yield of young animals....HIGH YIELD.....being the key here. Up here, urban sprawl, habitat loss, is the down fall of our once incredible blacktail heard. There are homes all over blacktail wintering grounds. Not just homes, but developments complete with shopping centers and golf courses. Same as Oregon is experiencing...total unchecked growth in areas critical to wildlife .
Then enter the politics....to keep your job in WDFW, you have to take it in the direction you are told to take it in......no speaking out of turn.....no rocking the boat...just do as we say....I feel for the Wardens I know that really care. Their hands are tied....their observations and input fall on deaf ears. Hunters are such a small minority....especially bow hunters such as I am....Its a very real, but sad state of afairs.

Russ