discipline for labs..when is it too tough?

[Akuracy503]

Question for the field dog owners, I have a 5 month old yellow lab and I've been fairly tough on him.

Crate trained and all but in the evenings after his run I'll let him out and about in the house to hang out with the family, he will still pee in the house at random times, and other times he will let us know and sit at the door. Grabs everything in sight (socks) and keeps doing it after punishment.

He's been extra strong headed as of late and grabbing his collar and throwing him on his back with a good ear pinch works for the moment...then he will do the same thing over that got him into trouble.

sometimes I think He's mentally challenged.

there's been situations where I get extra tough on him and borderline abusive (neck grab) til he yelps for his life...

What is the best method of controlling his wrong actions and letting him know without being too harsh?

what are your guys opinions.

I have a lot of patience but sometimes I feel He's got too much field dog energy to be in the house.

Is it close to neutering time? is he acting up for reasons? I been contemplating to not have him fixed but if it becomes a behavior problem then I have no choice.

I been refraining from using his crate as a confinment after punishment..as I want him to have a positive outlook for the crate.

your opinions are appreciated.

[billc_sbio]

I'd say, first, he needs to age a few more months.

Generally, when they reach about 9 months of age, they start to come out of the chewing mode and will start to pay attention better.

He's still just a puppy at heart.

Some take longer than others to "snap out of it"!

[Akuracy503]

he is clueless! has that empty look in his eyes..maybe my expectations are too high for his age..or maybe im just no good at training.

i guess only patience will tell.

[SLEDDER]

Labs tend to be hard headed, and or take there time to mellow out. Patience, and consistenancy is what you need lots of.

[dla]

Is it close to neutering time? is he acting up for reasons? I been contemplating to not have him fixed but if it becomes a behavior problem then I have no choice.

I'm not a professional lab trainer in real life nor do I play one on TV :smile:

But, I have never understood why people think that castration will solve behavior problems. I've owned a couple labs and other breeds. The only thing I see that castration does is stop dogs from breeding. Thats it.

Labs are my favorite breed for a number of reasons, but they can strain your patience during the "puppy" stage, which is why a lot of them end up at the pound.

Once in a while somebody gets a lab that is apparently born without a brain. I've seen it once - sad. But it is pretty rare.

My first guess about your situation is that you've got a high-energy pup and you're not running/playing him enough. You have to measure "walks" in miles. You have to play fetch till he tires or your arm is sore. You have to spend a day's hike letting him explore the woods around him. My current lab is pretty high-energy at 14months and I lost a lot of socks, a pair of shoes and an armrest on my Minivan when he was younger. But he's a great hunting/hiking companion now.

[uhmw]

yes labs can be quite hard headed. At 1 year they start to turn. I have seen shock collars preform miracals on what I considerd very unrully dogs- the german short hair type Born to hunt but lacking manners. If I train another dog the shock collar will be used, The cost of one is nothing compared to the stress of training a hard head dog. After a few good zaps all that is needed is the warning buzzer, funny how fast that hard head gets soft and comes.

[onstep]

I have a 8 month BLM that can be a handful. His motor requires a minium of 3 walks at 30 mins a pop or 2 training sessions a day. Even with that amount of activity he needs to be corrected in some of his behavior. You have to be consitent 100% of the time. sit means sit, here means here, heel is heel no matter the distraction. Remember at this young age dogs are trying to understand their place in the world and part of that is challenging the order of things. Be patient. Try to create success for him by putting him situations where he can excel like doing OB training in gradually more challenging environments. Labs take time to mature so get ready for the long haul or think about getting a started dog. No easy anwsers.

[Akuracy503]

Here's one for you, He will Listen almost instantly when a treat (baby carrot stick)is in my hand it's like magic.

but i refuse to constantly treat him in order to get him to be obedient.

Maybe my form of punishment isn't enough for him to listen..or maybe he just has a high tolerance for punishment.

[billc_sbio]

I've had some really "good" (well trained, intelligent, obedient) Labs...

I've never been "big" on "treat" training!

What happens when you're OUT of Treats?!! :shocked:

[BW]

There is nothing wrong with using treats during training. You can always ween him off them at an older age.

[Crooked Hook]

Akuracy- My limited experience with labs (2 of them so far plus 2 growing up) is that they are a lot like your kids. A little stern attitude with them usually works. They have always wanted to please so much that just raising a voice and showing that you are displeased has been my best training tool. With urinating in the house I stuck her nose in it and then put her out. If you can catch her in the act it works better. As far as chewing, some of the other guys have been luckier than I have. Mine both chewed until 2 years old. I got a KONG toy and some other chew toys that they were allowed to chew on. Everything else they got scolded for and it seemed to work most of the time. I used the book Water Dog by Richard Wolters and it worked great for training. Best of luck with him, Kris

[Hunt'nFish]

Akuracy,
I feel for ya man. Going throught the same thing here only with a 15 week old. Seems to just prefer carpet like he was whelped on it. I suspect he was whelped on a scrap chunk of old carpet in the garage. All I can say is get a carpet cleaner and keep it very close. Add some scent to the cleaner remove and mask any trace that he has pee'd there. The more it smells like his bathroom, the harder it will be to "correct" this.

I have to say the 1st book I read was "Water Dog" written back in the 60's and loaned to me by "chw" a fellow Ifisher, thanks Chris!
Anyhow "Water Dog" is old school, traditional tough love approach. Since I parent similarly, tough love seemed natural to me. What is tough love?... come down like a ton of bricks and twice as loving on the make-up. I've discussed this with other Ifishers including my uncle and they think I'm being hard on him. However, this tough love approach has been used in our family on 4 labs, and 3 came out awesome dogs. One freebie cross was dumb as a post and was returned to heaven early.

Is this right, I don't know. I will say this, my pup started to cower, which is a sign I need to back off a bit. But he HAS to KNOW I mean what I say. I will qualify this with pups have stages of development....so I've read anyway. Water Dog outlines when to expect these and to be prepared for a little rebeliousness and not to back down or you'll lose it's respect. But at the same time understand that it is only temporary. I tend to agree w/ this because my kids are no differant, they will constantly test you to see where the boundaries are, if they have changed.

Personally I do not think grabbing them by the nap of the neck hurts them physically, sure it gets their attention, that's the point. I also believe spankings are meant to be painful but not hurt them physically. Again by the same regard the rewards and make-up need to be super dupper extra fun for the pup. So just like a child they will do as their told, even if they don't know why and will soon figure out that you can be just as loving as you are hard on them.
Above all you need to be consisent. Stick to a routine, if routines are good for our children, then it only stands to reason that it is equally important, or more so, for our pets.
Out of the kennel, water him and immeditely head outside and give him the potty command followed by a treat from your pocket. (Thanks Stickfish for the potty command!)

Other than the peeing on the carpet, our 15wk pup is sitting, staying 50%, and knows where his bed is & that he's not to be off it w/o permission. He is also fetching and we're making good progress on the toss, sit stay, CHANCE fetch it up routine. He still has to be held, but he's getting it done more and more with minimal holding. Pretty darn good for a 15wk old I think. He seems very smart, but the peeing is not related to his intelligence, but more his whelpping where 90% of his life has been peeing & crapping on carpet.

Am I an expert? HECK NO! This is my 1st pup myself. But seeing how my Ol'Mans last 2 dogs turned out and my brothers yellow female, I'll do it the same. I have to admit I thought they were hard on theirs myself.
So tough love it is.
Hunt'nFish

PS: Whew...took me a long time to type that and I see half a dozen other replys have come up. Glad to see I'm not alone in the "tough love" department. CrookedHorn, glad to see your using "Water Dog" as well. Comforting to know it'll all turn out OK! ..... Hunt'nFish

[Akuracy503]

HuntNFish,

Thanks for that feedback, I too have heard of waterdog from Rocky ( HawaiianTime ) here on ifish. Sounds like a good tool for field dogs. I will be getting a copy.

I am staying consistent and do feel like he is just another kid.

I am going to stick with the tough love training since he only responds to this type of punishment.

Sometimes I feel he is clueless and doesnt understand but I can call bluff and reinforce his understanding when he responds to my treats.

It gets draining when i feel like all I ever do is spend time scolding him...even with a walk/run routine then force fetch, & playtime with toys his attention wanders elsewhere.

I refuse to win him over with treats and refuse to crate him constantly..so it's extra challenging, but i know it'll take patience.

Thanks for the reply's all!

[Chesapeake]

Never dealt with labs, Im a chesapeake man. In my experience with dogs they seem to need about 2 years to get through the "Teen" years.

My best advice would be to keep at it. 5 months is a young dog he will come around with time and go through phases on the way. Heck he probably hasnt even dropped yet. Wait till he starts marking everything in sight.

Leave him intact. Theres nothing quite so sad as a dog with no pride?

[Limbhanger]

Repetition, keeping everything consistant and praise will win out in the end. 5 months is still a puppy. If he still pees in the house then potty training was not successfully accomplished in the first few weeks you had him home. Go back to the basics and get him outside every 45 minutes and praise the heck out of him when he goes. Dont let him have free run of the house. Keep him where you can see him.
You bought a lab, He is going to pick up socks and anything else he can because that is what they do. He needs a toy of his own. Praise him when he grabs it and tell him no when he grabs off limit items. Over and Over and Over. Have fun with him, he isnt mentally ready for the serious stuff yet.

[Hunt'nFish]

I should add one thing....
Stickfish asked me just the other day "How's it going with the pup, has he got you potty trained yet?"

At first I didn't read/hear what he was asking.
Has the pup got ME trained? ME?, yep me. It's a two way street, he's communicating too. Am I watching for HIS signals? I have to admit no, not as well as I should've been. The getting up and sniffing around, is communication. The going to the back door (which I can't see from the family room) is communicating, the constant getting up off his bed and roaming the house is communicating. Am I watching?...am now.

"Water Dog" is big on trust. The pup must trust us. We have to watch for his communication as well. He needs to trust that we are listening to him too. Eye contact and body language are his forms of communication. This trust will become super important when the formal training begins. We need to be very careful that we do not thrash him to the point he becomes confused and doesn't trust us. Just like a child, the training starts early; constant & consistant with high expectations.
LOL,
Hunt'nFish

[Akuracy503]

great discussion guys..keeps me focused and reminds me to set my emotions aside.

[James in Idaho]

Geez, 5 months he's just a pup, and his teeth HURT! He's going to chew for the next two months because he's loosing his puppy teeth. Give him something other than socks to chew on. In two or three months, start the force fetch and he'll get over the chewing. And it's a little young to expect perfect housebreaking, you have to watch him close and get him outside with lots of praise when he does it right. Pretty young to put an e-collar on unless you really, really know what you're doing with one (I don't, collaring a young pup takes an expert to not ruin the dog).

If he is cowering when you disicipline him, it's too much. Let him be a pup. I have no problems lowering the hammer when necessary on my dogs, but 5 months is really young.

[SlimPickens]

Ditto with James.

Give it time. I never thought my lab would ever spend the night inside because she was too high strung. At 3 she mines her manners and comes inside.

Give it some time. It will all fall into place eventually. You've got the teenage years coming up shortly. Hang in there.

Give the dog lots of exercise, even if it means driving logging roads or private roads with the dog running in front of you. :blush:

[Hawk]

[quote
My first guess about your situation is that you've got a high-energy pup and you're not running/playing him enough. You have to measure "walks" in miles. You have to play fetch till he tires or your arm is sore. You have to spend a day's hike letting him explore the woods around him.

[/quote]

I agree. Our black female is now 8 months old and she has started to calm down, but they are high energy dogs and ya' just gotta run 'em until they tire. The best investment I made in that department was a dummy launcher. I can shoot a dozen dummies out there 100 yards or more and she is 110% flat out flying to get them; but she sleeps like a baby that night and is quite manageable the next day. If I don't run her for 2-3 days, it's like somebody gave her a quadruple espresso from Starbucks.

I don't know how others feel about an e-collar at five months, but that will absolutely get his attention; but, ONLY if he is pretty solid on the commands (Sit, Come/Here, Down, etc.) before collar conditioning.

On the urination issue, we always had the rule that no body plays with her unless she has been outside to potty before hand, and we've only had one accident in the time we've had her, and that was because we broke our own rule. When she was little, she'd potty and then we'd only play with her for 15-20 minutes before she was back in the crate. I think males might be tougher to crate train, but set the family rule that she potties first, then plays.

[llama77]

5 Months too young for collar. He really is young and like others have said, hes probably teething. Keep appropriate toys handy to replace the wrong items he picks up.
Stay consistent.
For corrections you might try picking him up off the ground and not saying a word. If he doesnt sit, catch him and carry him back where he belongs , again dont say a word. It works well until they get too big.
The collar is a great tool but he still needs to understand that he has to comply without a collar.
And we dont teach things with the collar, just enforce known commands.

And as for peeing in the house. He should be in his crate whenever he is not being WATCHED. He should be spending a lot of time in the crate. The crate should be his home and safe place. He will learn not to pee in the crate because he has to live there. Give him a piece of carpet to sleep on. He'll soon learn it aint for peeing on.
When he comes out of the crate he goes imediately outside to pee. Give the commmand and praise him.
Now should he choose to pee in the house it will be witnessed because you ARE WATCHING him. He gets corrected and goes outside. He will soon understand that if he pees in the house he will get reprimanded.He wont stop peeing because it "pleases" you, he'll stop because he doesnt like getting corrected and doesnt like peeing where he lives. If you dont see it happen, the correction will be of little or no value. So if you go into the bathroom , he goes into the crate.
My Goldens have always spent a lot of time in the house. They have easily gone 10 hours without peeing or chewing on anything.
Now for those that think thats too long. I dont like it either. But there are times when it happens. I will often put her out at night and she wont pee and then she will be inside until morning. She has the opportunity to go and just doesnt have to. Ive had 3 now without any problems.
And try a few other books besides Wolters. Tri tronics or Lardys, or Smartfetch. Get something a little more modern.

[Hawk]

On the peeing issue, we also found it helpful to control her fluid intake. We don't give her any water after about 7:00P or 8:00P, and let her have a big drink first thing in the morning when we let her out to potty. We potty her when we go to bed about 11:00P or midnight, and she's good until we potty her in the morning about 7:00-7:30 or so.

I agree with llama77, a lot of quality time in the crate/den doesn't hurt, and their mom taught him not to potty in the den before you got him.

[Gettin' Birdy]

Lots of great advice here...I used Game Dog instead of Water Dog but both are great books. I second the "his teeth are killing him" thought. Don't force fetch until he's got his adult teeth! You don't want to condone chewing on bumpers or birds and he'll want to to relieve the discomfort in his mouth.

I am not a professional dog trainer nor do I play one on t.v. either but having dealt with what you are dealing with on two different dogs in the last five years, I have a thought or two:

One of my dogs was a hellion until she was about 18 months old. You name it, peeing, destroying shoes, chewed a hole in brand new linoleum, etc....Thought I was going to blow a gasket (they don't write about chewing linoleum in Game Dog)

Anyways, at 18 months things started to change. A lot of her chewing was separation anxiety (after teething was over). I spent so much time with her the first 18 months of her life, she would go bonkers if she wasn't with me. But that is the goal...you have to bond with them and develop that trust. Dogs also need to know their place in the "pack" so to speak. If he doesn't something he knows is wrong and we all can tell by their reaction to being caught, scold them. Let them know that you are not going to let it go. As a lot of commented on, the teenage years are trying. She constantly pushed the boundaries. Does he really mean for me to stay or can I creep a bit, etc. Again, they have to know what is what and that when you say it you mean it.

Wait on the e-collar for a while. I use them with both my dogs and they are effective but you really want them to mean two things: #1 I can correct you wherever you are so don't even try it. #2 When I wear this thing, fun times are ahead i.e. training or hunting. Eventhough my dogs know what it means to have an e-collar on they also get really excited about them because they also associate them with training or hunting. Take the time to condition them to the collars and it will pay big dividends in the end.

Final thought on "hard headed" dogs. My BLF was kinda a post the first 18 months of her life....thought I drew the short straw and picked the mentally challenged kid. Boy was I wrong. She's smart, hard working, and a joy to have around the house. My YLF was brilliant as a puppy...biddable, great nose, joy to have around the house, didn't chew, etc. While she is still a great dog in a lot of ways (great family dog, extremely hard hunter)...my wife and I refer to her as the "dumb jock." In her mind, the best way is a straight line, there isn't a lot of thoughts like "if I jump off of this 20 foot cliff to make the retrieve, will I get hurt." I have held my breath several times when she has jumped off of grand canyon like cliffs or run full speed into russian olive groves. Of course, she emerges healthy, with the bird, and a big 'ole goofy grin on her face. There's not a lot of creative thought process.

So hang in there. Your dog is REALLY young, give it time for his genetics to start coming to the surface. Almost forgot, take the author of Water Dogs advice...if you want a well rounded dog, don't restrict his life to a kennel and occassional liberty passes inside the house. Car rides to the store, walks in the park, walks in the woods off leash, etc.....do it all so it's not a big deal to him when it happens.

Sorry for being long-winded,

Good Luck!

-GB

[IRONMAN]

Go get the book Water Dog and follow it religously. It may be a bit late but it is a very easy and effective read.

[Grain of Salt]

(they don't write about chewing linoleum in Game Dog)

That one made me smile....throw in eating drywall too.

[Daffyblaster]

My last black lab chewed through two table legs, a chair leg and the cu de gras was my brand new eyeglasses at $350. Even crunched the lenses. I found after that a product called Nylabone. It's a chew toy designed to clean their teeth and relieve anxiety from teething and periods of boredom/inactivity. The flavoring does'nt come off on anything else either. Or you can boil it in with a soup bone or ham bone to add a little flavor. Saved me alot of money later.

I'm a tough love advocate as well. It's worked with my dogs and my boys. Just like kids, dogs will test you and consistency is key.

Good luck with the pup.

[DriftR]

It has been my opinion on raising puppies that they remain puppies up until about 1 year old. Most trainers for obedience training want the dog to be at least 5-6 months of age and well socialized.
I never believed in hitting my dogs. I used Cheerios' to train them. I'm in the process now of training my new little buddy, A Chesapeake Bay Retriever. Now, pound for pound a lab puppy up against a Chesapeake the Chessie is hard headed. Strong willed. You just have to be patient and channel that activity. Strong workouts 2x or even 3x daily. They make mistakes but remember dogs need to be made aware of their mistake within 1-2 seconds of it happening or they don't know whay they are scolded for. When you call your pup to come, sit or heel do you always reward him with a pat on the head? A treat? When he is bad and you call him do you use the same tone of voice and when he completes your command do you reward him with a pat on the head or a treat? You should if you don't.
I've owned dogs but I still take my pups to obedience training. They get to socialize with other pups and people,and I get to learn right along with my dog. Never to old to take training classes be it your dog or you.
If you feel yourself getting angry take a break and rub your buddies ears or belly. That will help you both out.

[taggbro]

Question for the field dog owners, I have a 5 month old yellow lab and I've been fairly tough on him.

Crate trained and all but in the evenings after his run I'll let him out and about in the house to hang out with the family, he will still pee in the house at random times, and other times he will let us know and sit at the door. Grabs everything in sight (socks) and keeps doing it after punishment.

He's been extra strong headed as of late and grabbing his collar and throwing him on his back with a good ear pinch works for the moment...then he will do the same thing over that got him into trouble.

sometimes I think He's mentally challenged.

there's been situations where I get extra tough on him and borderline abusive (neck grab) til he yelps for his life...

What is the best method of controlling his wrong actions and letting him know without being too harsh?

what are your guys opinions.

I have a lot of patience but sometimes I feel He's got too much field dog energy to be in the house.

Is it close to neutering time? is he acting up for reasons? I been contemplating to not have him fixed but if it becomes a behavior problem then I have no choice.

I been refraining from using his crate as a confinment after punishment..as I want him to have a positive outlook for the crate.

your opinions are appreciated.

How much training have you done previous to 5 months? Does he know what "no" means? At 5 monhths old, he should be sitting, coming, and knowing what no means. Keep in mind he's still a pup so making him "yelp for his life" is definately being way too tough on him. Get a choke chain on the pup and teach him to sit, heal, and come. You need to teach him what response you want before you can expect him to respond to your satisfaction. Inflicting pain on him probably confuses him more than anything because he still doesn't know precisely what you want him to do. Because you have not effectively taught him. Patience is key. Labs take lots of it. If you are training and are losing your temper, put the dog away and try again later. As far as having "too much field dog" in him, most 5 month old lab pups do. If you have a field bred pup, he's going to have alot of energy and start booming down a bit by the time he's two or so. So get used to it. But do remember to teach (train) your dog the desired response. Beating him into submission via ear pinch, scruff grab, e-collar, etc. will not teach your dog. It will more than likely confuse him though. I've hunted with dogs that got trained by the heavy hand. Most of them are afraid to look straight if they are not told to do so. You can see the fear they have.

Go to www.totalretriever.com and get a copy of Lardy's training manuals. It's the best advice I can give you.

Go get the book Water Dog and follow it religously. It may be a bit late but it is a very easy and effective read.

Please don't.
HuntNfish, I hope you are reading this.
Wolters is old school and there are better ways to go about training your pooch. I'm not an expert but have trained about 15 labs in my life both mine and other peoples. I currenly am using Lardy techniques which are based on Rex Carr's techniques. Get Lardy's training manuals. Worth their weight in gold.

Regarding HuntNfish and the "putting the foot down and letting the pup know who's boss", please quit. The sure sign of your pup cowering makes me sad and you are going to ruin the dog. No need! I have the sister to your pup and she sits, retrieves, comes, and has a hell of alot of fun as she should since she is still a pup. I've never laid a finger on her. I've hardly had to raise my voice. If you plan on hunting him, get him interested in retrieving. Making him stay at such an early age diminishes his willingness to go. Wolters is flat out wrong (there, I said it) to require such a young pup to have to stay put and be steady. How do I know? Hell, I trained about 5 labs with the wolter method before I got smart and caught on to Lardys method. Lardy's method is heads and tails way better than Wolters. The pups are happier, they train faster.

As far as peeing in the house goes, my 15 week old lab still does it once in a while. Why? I'm not paying attention. Don't blame the dog. They're just a pup. They get better as they get older. HuntNfish, your dog was whelped in a whelping box without carpet right along with mine. When mine pees in the house, I tell her no and put her outside. She knows what no means.

Glenn