Jig or Fly?????

This is Bill McMillan's Paintbrush that I tied on an Owner jig hook.




Notice there is no lead on weight of any kind attached to this.
So what do you think? Jig or Fly?

[Steelie Mike]

I have always loved McMillan's flies. If it is attached to a fly rod then it of course if a fly. (Not that I care one way or another.)I experiment with all kinds of hooks and even make my own waddington shanks from spinner materials and swivels. It is all good.

[Gizmo Man]

I would call it a fly. If you actually poured a lead head around the hook shank then I would call it a jig. The hook without the lead makes the difference. Mfgs attach a name to hooks for easy identification. The long turned down eye is just a style of hook. You can buy already made jigs (hook with lead attached) or buy the jig style hook without the lead so you can pour the style head and wt. you want.

I like using jig hooks and use chain eyes like used on a comet or boss but prefer the point to ride in the up position as opposed to the bottom. This way, they hang up less and you loose less flies.

I have seen people use split shot in front of a fly hook. Does this make the fly hook a jig?


For that matter, if using bead heads, does this make a fly a jig. You have weight at the head of the hook.

Hook eyes are up turned, down turned, oval, straight etc. So what is the difference in using a turned down eye. A jig hook is a turned down eye, just a little longer in the turn down.

Using external lead on the line in front of the hook or pinched to the hook would make it jig like.

A quick google search on jig fishing comes up with this:

Jig (fishing)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Jump to: navigation, search
The makeup of a jig usually consists of a lead sinker with a hook molded into it. There is then some sort of body on the shank of the hook. The jig is very versatile and can be used in both salt water as well as fresh water. Many species are attracted to the lure which has made it popular amongst anglers for years.

[edit]
The Head
The head of a jig can consists of many different shapes and colors along with different features. The most common is the round head, but others include fish head shaped, coned shaped, or anything someone can think up. These heads come in many different weights usually ranging from 1/64 ounces to 1 ounce. They also can be found in a wide array of colors and patterns. The hooks also vary. These variances can be on the hook type, color, angle of the hook or the material of the hook. Some jig heads even offer a weed guard.

[edit]
The Body
There is a wide array of bodies for jigs. The most common that can be found is made out of rubber or silicon. These come in many shapes can be a grub, frog shaped, fish shaped, paddle tail, lizards, or different bugs. The colors of these can range from bright yellow to a transparent brown with silver and red flakes. Another body that is often used is the combination of feathers, fur, rubber skirts, and other materials.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jig_%28fishing%29"

Giz....

Very good points Giz!
So this "fly" tied on a Targus fly hook and using barbell eyes must be a jig then...yes?

[Gizmo Man]

The makeup of a jig usually consists of a lead sinker with a hook molded into it.

I think the answer is in whether the wt. is molded into it or tied on. Molded=jig, tied on = fly.

It also depends on how the offering is presented. Is it being JIGed up and down which is where this method of fishing was effective with worm or other plastic bodies.


Same difference with epoxy flies. Are they flies or plugs.

There is such a cross over of materials these days that one can debate the issue until you are blue in the face.

As discussed in the other threads on traditional vs non traditional gear, you can argue what is traditional vs non traditional tying material.

There are many original materals that are outlawed to use or have in your posession. So other materials where substituded. Do we consider these substituted materials non traditional materials??

As I said in an earlier post, fishing is about what makes you feel good when you are out fishing.

Go to a lake and watch all the pontoon boats/float tubes trolling flies with fly rods ... Are they fly fishing or ??? Are the bead head flies being "jigged" when trolling, fly fishing or jig fishing.

A lot of money in equipment, ie, rods, reels and fly lines when a simple $20 rod and spinning reel with a plastic bubble works just as good with a $1.00 bead head fly tied to the end.

Merry Xmas to all....

Giz... :smile: :smile:

[Navigator]

It is either an unfinished jig or a weird looking fly!

[lilnorthfork]

So what do you think? Jig or Fly?

My thought is that it depends on the role of the bobber. Is the 'bobber' traveling downriver independent of the fly, or is the bobber traveling downriver suspending the jig.
I have fished a float and fly with a spin rod, but it has not occured to me to deaddrift or swing a jig with the flyrod... until now. Seems like it might be an option in deep, fast water.
lnf

[KillerDave]

Because there are no lead eyes, I think Stew's first pattern is a fly.

The pattern with lead eyes is by definition a jig. A fly-castable jig, but still a jig. I use them all the time and they work very well.

[R Jackson]

I bet it will catch a fish, what ever it is.

[mandinga]

So what do you think? Jig or Fly?

well timed post stew.



i dont have the answer...sorry....


but, tell me this, If I tie a nifty streamer pattern on the back hook of a spinner, does that make the spinner a fly? :whazzup:

[mandinga]

My thought is that it depends on the role of the bobber.

yes.

and it also depends on how it is being fished...with or w/o the bobber

[lilnorthfork]

[quote]

but, tell me this, If I tie a nifty streamer pattern on the back hook of a spinner, does that make the spinner a fly? :whazzup:

Spinner patterns can be quite effective. :grin:

[FrogPond]

Very nice fly Stew!

[Slow and Low]

It's a deadly weapon. Under an indicator might as well be a jig.

Nymph fihing under an indicator was well in fashion prior to bobber and jig fishing. Shouldn't jig guys be taking pictures and asking "isn't this really a fly not a jig?"

I believe you posted that bug last year. The fish on the Hoh liked it.

[Slow and Low]

sorry, meant the dumbbell eyed ??? whatever it is.

[clacksteel]

If the molded weight definition holds true...than all of First Bite's jigs are actually flies!

[Catcherman]

If you tied a few of those up on a lead head I would be happy to trade you for a few geetas!

Sweet looking flig!

Tom

[Dragfreedrift]

I'd say fly. Jig to me refers to the shape of the hook + weight.

A barbell/dumbell weight on a normal fly hook is a fly in my book.


DFD

[frankenfish]

It's a flig. Or, maybe a jly?

[MarlinMark]

Who said "What's in a name?" The Bard of the Avon?

Mark

[N.U.Angler]

I would say fly, but the regs on the North Umpqua says that it has to be tied on a convential hook, I've taken some of my jig's into Joe's shop and he says they won't be legal in the fly water. You see it's not always the weight as we can use weight in the winter, but the hook has to be just so also. :blush:

Howard

So anything other than a conventional fly hook is not allowed?

[N.U.Angler]

Stew, you hit the nail on the head, you can't even fish doubles, go figure?

Howard

Back to the top on this one because I would really like to hear from some others on this.
To me it's a fly If we go by definition only and using the style of hook as a criteria then it may be considered a jig
That being the case then wouldn't any fly tied on a hook that is not a normal fly hook not be considered a fly?

[blazerman]

Fly. If it had a poured lead head it would be a jig. With some dumbell eyes or bead chain eyes TIED on it would still be a fly IMO.

[stoneflyguy]

I look at it as a fly, and a nice one at that. You could argue the poured or tied weight issue to death. There are several diffrent ways to weight a fly or jig. Nice tie job however you look at it.

[PTS]

The only way to categorize something is to have a consistent definition. I would go by the definition of a fly as stated by the ODFW:

"A fly is a hook, dressed with conventional fly tying materials. the affixed materials may be natural or synthetic. Tied in conjunction with other materials, the following items may be part of the fly: wire (lead or other metal) used for weighting the fly, dumbell eyes or beads (metal, glass, or plastic). A fly is not a hook to which sinkers, molded weights, spinners, spoons or similar attractors are attached."

In Oregon, you can't make up your own definition of a fly. You must follow the definition in the 2006 regs. page 11.

Stew's creation is a fly!

[stoneflyguy]

Although I don't think this is what Stew intended when he created the post, I agree you should go by the regs. Washington's regs. are not as elaborate as Oregons.

FLY: A lure on which thread, feathers, hackel, or yarn cover a minimum of half of the shank of the hook. Metallic colored tape, tinsel, mylar or bead eyes may be used as an integral part of the design of the fly pattern.

[clacksteel]

By Oregon's definition a lot of jigs would be flies.

Stew's creation is a fly!

Thank you PTS

[N.U.Angler]

Hey Stew, The N.U. Has special regs. that are not covered under the general definition, and as far as I know they are going to enforce them. Jigs won't work in the N.U. flywater, but the bait water anything goes.

Howard

[mandinga]

the first one appears to fall under the regs as a fly. And a nice creation.


the second one however to me is still a jig. To me the only thing that separates jigs from fly's is the way that they are weighted...jigs with a heavy ball of leag on the front of the jig, while flies usually have the lead affixed to the body, or in bead form...

[mandinga]

Hey Stew, The N.U. Has special regs. that are not covered under the general definition, and as far as I know they are going to enforce them. Jigs won't work in the N.U. flywater, but the bait water anything goes.

very interesting...now, stew if you really wanted to see if it was a jig or a fly you should fish it there and see if the ranger writes you a fat ticket or not! Process of elimination

[PTS]

Dumbell eyes tied onto a hook still meet the definition of a fly so the second creation is also a fly. Jigs have molded lead on the hook.

[mandinga]

Dumbell eyes tied onto a hook still meet the definition of a fly so the second creation is also a fly. Jigs have molded lead on the hook.

i looked at it again...and just realized that they are dumbell eyes...not a jig head....

so yes, its a fly. thanks PTS.

[N.U.Angler]

I would like to know if a N.U. Ranger would write a big fat ticket also, Stew you gonna try it this summer so the rest of us will know if it's OK or not???

Howard

[N.U.Angler]

Just for the record Stew, the second fly you presented is legal to fish on the N.U. right now. In the summer you will have to go without the weight though.

Howard

[clacksteel]

"A fly is a HOOK, dressed with conventional fly tying materials. the affixed materials may be natural or synthetic. Tied in conjunction with other materials, the following items may be part of the fly: wire (lead or other metal) used for weighting the fly, dumbell eyes or beads (metal, glass, or plastic). A fly is not a hook to which sinkers, molded weights, spinners, spoons or similar attractors are attached."

Hmmm...does that mean that the tube FLIES that we are swapping don't exactly meet the regs? Or is it okay since the tube is "attached" to the hook w/ the hook holder?

[Chas]

Got to go with the jig on this one, however, This could be one heck of a small creek pocket fly. How does it drift hook up or down?


---------------------
"it is all about the hunt"
CTPH

[Gizmo Man]

I am bringing this to the top as this was discussed previously and is relevant to this thread:

http://www.ifish.net/board/showthrea...53#post2308553

Giz

[dirtyCut]

kinda miss stew.... what happened to him?

good find though, interesting isnt it?

[Slow and Low]

Originally Posted by KleanCut

kinda miss stew.... what happened to him?

good find though, interesting isnt it?

He is on westfly and from what I can tell lurks a little on this sight.

[Djflyfish]

I would call it a fly..nice work!!!

[Twitchs_Tackle]

Originally Posted by PTS

The only way to categorize something is to have a consistent definition. I would go by the definition of a fly as stated by the ODFW:

"A fly is a hook, dressed with conventional fly tying materials. the affixed materials may be natural or synthetic. Tied in conjunction with other materials, the following items may be part of the fly: wire (lead or other metal) used for weighting the fly, dumbell eyes or beads (metal, glass, or plastic). A fly is not a hook to which sinkers, molded weights, spinners, spoons or similar attractors are attached."

In Oregon, you can't make up your own definition of a fly. You must follow the definition in the 2006 regs. page 11.

Stew's creation is a fly!

By Oregon Law definition, this is in fact a "fly"


Bead is solid brass, attached with a SS pin through the hole, then the pin is tied onto hook shank with GSP. Body is a blend of schlappen, crosscut rabbit, krystal flash. Weight is not molded to the hook.

[Slow and Low]

Originally Posted by Twitchs_Tackle

By Oregon Law definition, this is in fact a "fly"


Bead is solid brass, attached with a SS pin through the hole, then the pin is tied onto hook shank with GSP. Body is a blend of schlappen, crosscut rabbit, krystal flash. Weight is not molded to the hook.

I really need to find something else to do...I know. Nice Jig and fish but I think you missed this part "A fly is not a hook to which sinkers, molded weights, spinners, spoons or similar attractors are attached."

The brass"bead" is a molded weight that is attached is it not?

[C-lice]

Originally Posted by Slow and Low

I really need to find something else to do...I know. Nice Jig and fish but I think you missed this part "A fly is not a hook to which sinkers, molded weights, spinners, spoons or similar attractors are attached."

The brass"bead" is a molded weight that is attached is it not?

Well, beads are specifically acceptable, according to the regs.

I have no idea how metal beads are made. I suspect that they're not molded, but machined on a lathe machine thingy (Sorry-I have no mechanical inclination at all).

[Twitchs_Tackle]

Yes, they are lathe turned machined beads...

Brite Beads are molded, oops, those are FLY beads

[KillerDave]

##

[SouthSantiamSlayer]

Originally Posted by stew

this is bill mcmillan's paintbrush that i tied on an owner jig hook.




notice there is no lead on weight of any kind attached to this.
So what do you think? Jig or fly?

fly.

[sothereiwas]

I dont think that we will ever reach a definition that everyone will be happy with. My personal opinion is that the bend in the hook makes no difference. When I think of a jig, in reference to steelhead fishing, the lead is what makes it a jig. The lead allows it to be fish horizontal in a dead drift presentation.

Unless you are fishing that with a dead drift presentaion there is no benefit to the bend.

[Tanner]

Isn't lead wire that almost every fly tier uses on certain nymph's molded weight???

[Zugbug66]

Do you fish this fly with a flyrod? Seems like kind of an odd choice, unless your heavily weighting it, and suspending it from a bobber. But I am a fan of the effectiveness of nymphing. But I also like to Swing Flies. I guess I like all facets of flyfishing and as long as I'm following the Regs, try not to worry about what others think.. By the way....I follow the regs/law and never kill Wild Fish.
Wayne

[Wingdam]

What is a fly? Has the line been blurred with all the new materials available over the last several years? Look at the gummy minnow or any of the egg sucking leeches or egg patterns that use soft molded plastic eggs. If it’s impossible to false cast it without fear of concussion, it’s probably not a fly.

[mkwerx]

Originally Posted by Wingdam

What is a fly? Has the line been blurred with all the new materials available over the last several years? Look at the gummy minnow or any of the egg sucking leeches or egg patterns that use soft molded plastic eggs. If it’s impossible to false cast it without fear of concussion, it’s probably not a fly.

I don't know about that - i've seen some very heavily weighted nymphs that cause me to duck on the forward stroke. Same with large conehead muddlers and wooly's, or just heavily lead-wrapped bodied muddlers and wooly's.

[sothereiwas]

You should see some of the streamers we use on LBC for bulls in the spring. Making your head disappear like a turtle is a requirement

[leadeyedbugger]

The pic is of a fly, i nice fly at that. And there is a good point to the materials and how they relate to a fly. I go by the oregon definition in the regs of course, but they are a little grey when it comes to materials. I then go to the would i get written up in davis lake test. It would be very possible to get written up if using a gummy minnow in davis lake if i remember correctly although pond could verify, we actually had a conversation about it before but it was a few years ago so am not 100% sure of the outcome of that comversation.
How much weight has nothing to do with whether a fly is a fly according to the law, of course you can feel differently but by definition there is no limit on how much weight except for the ability to cast it effectively. When it comes to weight it is weight that is molded to the hook that makes the distinction. Not weight that is tyed onto the hook.
The interesting part to me is the conventional tying materials part of the equation. Thats where the gummy minnow comes into place, is the gummy material a "conventional" tying material. what about a bass fly with a ton of rubber legs and some of the noise maker dealies in them....

[leadeyedbugger]

Oh yeah, i believe that the rubber eggs are considered bait, not a fly.....Gummy minnow to me is right at the line of fly or lure. Egg sucking leaches and such are definitely flies.
And by who's definition of casting with fear of concussion. I through some very heavy flies a very long ways without a problem, the same fly others just huddle in fear at the sight of them . And brad is right, the flies we use on LBC in the spring are rather largish

[rob allen]

there is one difference between fly fishing and conventional fishing ONLY one difference and whether a fly is a lure or a fly is defined by this one thing..

the difference between fly and conventional fishing is THE CAST.

conventional fishing it is the weight of the lure, bait or additional weight that carries the line to the desired location

in fly casting it is the weight of the line that carries the lure ( a fly) to the desired location

soo if a fly ( or additional weights) is so heavy that it carries line out it is by deffinition ( not legal just real) a lure and not a fly and thus cannot be considered flyfishing


Stew the fly you tied looks great and that hook looks like a good substitute for the Mustad 7970

[TallFlyGuy]

Originally Posted by PTS

The only way to categorize something is to have a consistent definition. I would go by the definition of a fly as stated by the ODFW:

"A fly is a hook, dressed with conventional fly tying materials. the affixed materials may be natural or synthetic. Tied in conjunction with other materials, the following items may be part of the fly: wire (lead or other metal) used for weighting the fly, dumbell eyes or beads (metal, glass, or plastic). A fly is not a hook to which sinkers, molded weights, spinners, spoons or similar attractors are attached."

In Oregon, you can't make up your own definition of a fly. You must follow the definition in the 2006 regs. page 11.

Stew's creation is a fly!

Originally Posted by Slow and Low

I really need to find something else to do...I know. Nice Jig and fish but I think you missed this part "A fly is not a hook to which sinkers, molded weights, spinners, spoons or similar attractors are attached."

The brass"bead" is a molded weight that is attached is it not?

Tied in conjunction with other materials, the following items may be part of the fly: wire (lead or other metal) used for weighting the fly, dumbell eyes or beads (metal, glass, or plastic).

I interpret that jig as a fly according to the definition, but rob is right as far as the line casting the fly.

[Wingdam]

What I'm talking about with false casting is using a jig and trying to sling it back and forth. With my #9 spey rod and 630 grain skagit, I could probably cast one, but doing the same thing with a single hander would be silly.

BTW, that turtle visual was funny!