Duck Shooting Skills Need Improvement

[Threemuch]

Gentlemen, I haven't posted to the hunting board before, but I thought I would start with this.

My name is Kurt, and I am a very poor shot. There, I said it. :grin:

I am a new waterfowl hunter. I have hunted upland game birds in the past with pretty good success. However, I was really perplexed by my poor shooting skills on the ducks. I know steel shot is much worse than lead. I also know that the typical duck shots are pretty different than an most upland game shots.

It has been pretty dissapointing, in that about 1 out of 10 shots results in a kill. Maybe a little better, but not much. I think I may be wounding quite a few birds in the process too.

I would like to improve my shooting skills away from the wild game, and come back next year a more ethical and more successful duck hunter.

My question is: How? What do I do? Is there a place I can get lessons from a shooting master? I know just going and shooting a bunch of trap won't make me much better, especially if no one is there to tell me what I am doing wrong.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Three, another aditction :grin:

How well does your shotgun fit you? When you pull up with the gun you should be looking just over the barrel and not see it, try to ignore that stupid bead too.
Go to a rock pit or some other placr where someone can toss clay birds over you. Have someone toss clay birds over you and practice. Come up from behind the bird and when the barrel touches it fire. Don't forget to follow through on the swing. Trap doesn't help for many waterfoul shots, try skeet.

[Rauly]

Trap is good for upland birds because most of your shots are going away. Waterfowling offers most first shots coming at you or crossing. Shooting skeet will usually help you with the differant angles that are very similar to waterfowling.

Rauly

[Gun Rod Bow]

I recommend Dan Mitchell in Salem. Mitchell Clay target sports.

He gives instruction and has some elevated towers to help you with "duck like" presentations.

Shot gun fit is important. Stance form all of that Dan can help with.

Skeet wont hurt especially if you shoot low gun and pratice your "move-mount shoot" for hunting.

Remember, speed is lead. Meaning that barrel speed will affect how much lead you see. If you work on this concept of coming through the bird, and moving slightly faster, you will automatically adjust for the speed difference between say a decoying Mallard and a zippy teal.

Good Luck,

PM me if you want more info.

[id. painter]

Im a spot shooter,, I dont follow thru , I was never taught to shoot , its just something you learn thru practice .
The biggest factor with steel shot for me has been the wind . If you shoot a still target from about 30 yards in a good cross wind you will be shocked at how far the pattern is blown to the side. I have trouble in big winds.
Many people will say that this is bad for your gun but,,,, Spend many hours pulling the gun up and dry fire it.(Ive done it to all my guns without any harm for over 30 years). Not just into the air but at a specific target . Getting used to pulling the gun up and having it come to where it should is important. Are you flinching ? You should have a hunting partner load your gun , and leave an empty chambe once and a while. You may be supprised at how flinchy you are. Good to see old Dogs learn new tricks. id. painter

Hi id.
In Alaska, when we were weathered in, I would put animal videos on and go hunting. The kids thought it was funny and the wife said I was crazy. It helped to get an animal in the sights quick. I must have bagged 1000 elephants.

[ORoutdoorsman]

Well, I am going to start off a little bit differently. Being new to waterfowling myself, I know a few points that have and still occasionally cause me grief. #1 are you hunting by yourself? I ask that, because ducks are deceptive. Alot of people will shoot at ducks 150 or 200 yards away, they thought were right within range. So if you are by yourself, or with someone else who is also unexperienced, you might be shooting at birds that are not even in your kill zone. Secondly, what choke/shot combo are you using. If you are using a completely chokeless gun, you dont want to shoot more than 10 feet. If you are shooting a full choke, you will have a harder time hitting them over deeks. And you also want a shot good for what you are hunting. You dont want something too small because it has no clout at 30 or 40 yds, and you dont want something too big, especially with a wide choke, because it wont put out enough pellets to do a good job. I think answering these questions would be the beginning to finding your problem. Now, in addition to that, once we get those details sorted, dont shoot at birds you cant hit to begin with. If you are hunting sauvies island, thats near impossible because birds wont decoy in. But what you want to do is this, wait until the birds are starting to set up and coming in to land, nd pull up and shoot them once they a just above the water. This way you know they are close enough and are slowing. Once they start flying, they go twice as fast as coming in, so if you spook them they will be a mile away before you can get a bead on them again. This is a hard thing to do if you hunt sauvies because birds are few and far between, but try using just one shell. I know it makes you think but what if i drop one and theres more. But, if you cant hit a bird that does'nt know he is going to be shot at with the first shot, how are you going to hit a bird goin like hell to get away from you on a follow up? Then, once you can clobber a bird, then start worrying about multiples or followups. But I think you main problem lies in the questions at the beginning, So I look forward to your response, and im sure that together the guys on ifish can solve your problem!

[Bait Bucket]

There isn't much difference between the upland game birds you already hunt and waterfowl. Your gun must fit. Then it's a simple butt, belly, beck, bang. The duck, however, is a whole lot tougher bird than your valley quail. So let them get in close. If you can hit a flying ruffed grouse in this part of the world, you can hit any bird in the air so long as you let them get in range.

[Threemuch]

Well, thanks for all the tips guys. I have learned a bunch already.

First, I shoot a pump gun. Mossberg 500. Price was right, and it's a reliable gun. My experience with auto loaders is that I miss again and again the same way. I like the feel of a pump, and re-aiming is good for me.

I have never been a crack shot, but trap, I could hit 15-18 out of 25, which was good enough for pheasant and quail back when I lived in in Kansas.

I have been hunting with an experienced hunter, and he has called the shots, so I am pretty sure that we aren't shooting too soon. Most shots are 25-30 yards or so, by my estimation.

I think gun fit for me is an issue. I am 6'3, and have pretty long arms, and I have hit my nose with my thumb on a couple of shots, and the wonders of the internet have taught me that this can be a sign of trigger pull being too short. I will be measuring it tonight, and probably heading for a gun shop tomorrow. That done, I will head out for some work with the clays and see if it goes any better.

Mostly I have been shooting 3" steel 2s with a modified choke, and I think I may go to 3s.

Also, I am pretty strongly left eye dominant, although I shoot righty, which means I can't really aim a shotgun at all with both eyes open, so I close my left. This was never a problem shooting trap, pheasant, or quail. I still try to point the gun, rather than aim, but less and less so as I continue to miss. This probably has something to so with my thumb-nose collisions as well.

[straightweave]

Check out this site.
http://www.shootinginstruction.com/

They have a school in Woodland, WA.

Good shooting.

[ORoutdoorsman]

I know the gun rooms has a guy who teaches a shotgun instruction class. I am not sure if it is only defensive, or it he teaches shotgunning in general. They might be able to help. They will give you hell about having a mossberg. Other than that, I say stick to the easy shots and build from there

[id. painter]

I tried to shoot clays ,,, once. I shot 13 shell and never even touched a bird . I had the guy pitch them slow and away and still couldnt hit one. Put me in a bunch of birds and I rarely miss. Too much thought ,,, like said above "just shoot " dont think too much.
Also ,, way back when while in undergrad school I broke the shell extractor on my auto loader.
I shot 18 for 18 on roosters while that gun was a single shot.. My personal best. As mentioned above this can help a bunch. Just knowing its your only chance make you more careful with shot selection. id. p.

[Swamp Puppy]

Originally posted by ORoutdoorsman:
They might be able to help. They will give you hell about having a mossberg.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">only try those guys out if you first want to endure a few hours of hearing about how much you suck, another hour on how much better they are than you and finally, another hour of how your gun sucks (no matter what it is) and how you really need to invest 2500 bucks in one of their "custom" guns if you want to learn to shoot beter.

personally, i would rather have a root canal without novacain than get advice from them.

[mcknerkneykak]

Now I know why those stupid ducks have been getting away.----I've been shooting a Mossburg!

[billc_sbio]

Kurt,

One other thing is that you may NOT be as "bad" a shot as you think! Especially if you're moderately successful at shooting Upland Birds.

One important thing to do is to be sure to pattern your shotgun and make sure that the choke (tube) you're using is giving you OPEN enough patterns at the close ranges you should be shooting your ducks at (over the decoys).

A couple of years ago I bought a different (factory) barrel for my Remington 870. It came with the standard 3 Choke tubes. I thought, "Great, I know I'm gonna be shooting at these ducks over decoys, fairly close in, so I'll just put the Improved Cylinder (shoots Steel as "Modified") tube in and have a go at it."

When I got out there hunting, suddenly I could barely hit a duck! I KNEW I was a better shot than that, and many of my shots that day were easy "gimme"s! I had one Mallard drake, right overhead that I shot at...the shot was "reaching" a little at about 40 yards, but "doable". I missed as the duck jinked at the close miss.

A fellow who was with me, a good shot himself and an accomplished Trapshooter said, "Hey, WHAT Choke do you have in that thing?!" To which I said, "I.C." He replied by saying, "You were just about right ON that duck...only missed it by inches! But your pattern, way out there was only about the size of a pie plate!" (He could SEE my pattern in the bright sunlight that day)

After that I went and bought a "Skeet" tube...put it in and it was STILL too tight! I ended up buying a "Cylinder" (No choke) tube and over decoys, with THAT barrel, it works just fine!

While choke tubes may have some named designation on them, barrels, vary in dimension. They're built to industry standards (within a range of parameters) and they're NOT all the same! "How" a choke works is a ratio of the barrel's diameter to the choke's constriction. If the barrel is LARGER than the optimum dimension (like mine is), then the choke will act TIGHTER than what the named designation stamped on it is...

So there's a thought, you might not be such a bad shot after all...you may be missing them, but not by much! Maybe opening up your pattern a little may be the answer to "hitting"?!! Also, be sure to get 'em in close before taking those shots.

[ 01-05-2004, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: billc_sbio ]

[jokester]

I've found personaly that gun fit is very important.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Paul, how many times have I told you? In your case, it's not the gun...it's more the operator!

-jokester

[ORoutdoorsman]

Mossberg3.5, I agree with you. I have only been in there a couple of times and cannot stand to listen to those guys. Their idea of sales is to try and make everyone who comes in feel like a complete idiot that shoots nothing but junk. When, I am fairly confident that the exact same remington gun, for 400 dollars less from the gun broker or fishermans is just as good as theirs. I just mentioned them because they are the only people I have heard of that offer shotgun lessons. I personally think the best way is to just go out with someone who knows the ropes and shoot, but thats my opinion. Its funny about the gun room though, I saw one of the guys that works the counter at the gun room checking out sportsmans right after they opened, so I went up and asked him if they were taking a hit from sportsmans opening. And he said no, business is great. They wont take our customers, people who buy good guns come to us, and people that buy crap come here. Well, I just don't know why there remingtons, benelli's, sigs, and various other guns are better than everyone elses. Just doesnt make sense to me!

[Crashin' Bait]

We usually shoot informal clays somewhere with full hunting attire on during the off season. All of the cold weather clothing is enough to change your swing considerably from normal. Plus, if you wear glasses, they will fog up just like they would if you had hiked three miles with 5 dozen dekes on your back before shooting time. :grin: Just a thought, don't forget to factor in clothes when fitting your fowling piece.

[id. painter]

You got it Keta. Not having to think when shooting is very important ,,, I used to do the same thing with the T.V. and Kert Gowdy's American Sportsman. I loved that show as a kid.
I dont do it much with a shot gun nowdays ,, but I still start every big game season with several hundred dry fires , and the gun I plan to hunt with. As well as some serious sighting in time. id. painter

[live to fish]

I've found personaly that gun fit is very important.I am working on my shooting skills also so if you ever want to go practice some time let me know and maybe we can help each other.My son and i just went out last weekend hand throwing clays and went through about 200 rounds.

[Trout Tako]

Three - Here's my $.02

Ever notice that when hunting upland birds a majority of the shots are quick snapshots. (at least for me, I hunt with a lab.) I have the most trouble hitting waterfowl that I watch come all the way in. I "over think" my shots. If a bird catches me by surprise I'm deadly. Here's what I'm getting at, if you've got birds working the dekes wait untill the last minnute to pull up & shoot. Don't think about it, just pull up & fire!!!! None of this how far should I lead 'em, how fast are they moving, is my bead in the right spot, over thinking nonsense: Just see bird - pull trigger. ( this can also be applied to golf. don't think about your swing, just hit the ball)

If you find yourself unable to do this here is another suggestion: Swing through the bird quickly & fire as you pass his head, this will usually get you right on target, though it makes for a tough second shot.

P.S. If you are wounding alot of birds you are straining you gun barrel. 35-40 YDS Max with steel. Try 3" or 3 1/2" #3s they put out the best kill pattern.

Good luck,

Taco

[billc_sbio]

Originally posted by ORoutdoorsman:
I know the gun rooms has a guy who teaches a shotgun instruction class. I am not sure if it is only defensive, or it he teaches shotgunning in general. They might be able to help. They will give you hell about having a mossberg.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Hehe...you've GOT TO BE KIDDING?!! [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]


The "guys" in there ONLY know one thing! Seperating you from your $$$!

Sure you hear them talkin 'bout "I'm a Shooting Champ" blah, blah, blah.

I say, "Sure! I KNOW who the shooting champs are...and you're NOT one of them!" :grin:

(If they were, they'd have Trophies, Ribbons, Awards displayed and hanging up...look around...see any?!! )

BTW, the Northwest DOES have some true shooting champs and you won't find them down at the GR! You won't even find them shooting WITH the guys from the GR!

IF you truly want to learn from the "champs", go to a recognized gun club or range...hang out a little bit and find out WHO the champs are...then arrange some lessons with them!

Most shooting champs don't advertise it that much, but those who shoot a lot will know WHO they are and can point them out to you.

[ 01-06-2004, 01:51 AM: Message edited by: billc_sbio ]

[Fishbone]

1. Qualified instruction.

2. Address the eye-dominance issue.

3. Practice, practice, practice.

[Swamp Puppy]

ORoutdoorsman - if you really want a treat, try talking to the guys down there about a duck call. :grin:

[billc_sbio]

Hehe, well S laC IS a good caller...I'll give him that.

But talkin with him you'd think he was God's gift to hunting! The "last word" on anything you ever wanted to know about!

Geez, I used to feel sorry for the kid...anyone having to grow up in that close proximity of W laC

But he's had time to "get over it"...and things HAVEN'T gotten better...only worse!

You know I've seen ducks piling in on guys who's calling sounded so horrible that it made me wince. So being the best hot-shot caller isn't necessarily the answer to being a red hot hunter...it helps, but isn't really that big a deal. :tongue:

[Flatfish]

Skeet, Sporting Clays, Trap.

I would start in that order.

Buy 2000 empty hulls and a progressive reloader. load them. Shoot them. After 6000-8000 rounds on a skeet range, head over to the sporting clays clubs. Shoot another 10,000 rounds.

In a 12 guage, a 7/8 oz. load at 1200 fps will do you real well. Recoil becomes a problem. And we do not want problems. Worry about the Dove and Rhino loads later. They are just clay birds.

Pattern the gun with steel.

In the real world, you are a 95% shooter before you are good enough to complain about steel not killing well. Inside 40 yards( on ducks here. geese are another story), you simply have no excuse.

I shoot a bit of skeet. Not enough to be good. But, I am better than the average bear.

Bottom line( no matter how you get there from here), if you shoot them in the face, they are dead. If you ahoot 3 feet behind them ( and I am totally qualified to answer this question due to my vast experience of shooting where they aint), they fly off.

Best advice I can give is watch the birds beak. Shoot 8" in front of it. If that does not work, shoot 28" in front of it. Sooner or later, ol Greenhead will fall out of the sky.

Then the spoiled dog gets to earn his keep.

The journey on this one is as much fun as the destination.

Mark and the 15.7 grains of Clays dog.

[ORoutdoorsman]

Mossberg, I stopped being able to go into their store due to my inability to listen to them blab on about their usual things before I ever even thought about shooting a duck! Its like pulling teeth!

[steelheadslayer]

When I was in college I would shoot anywheres from 5-10 rounds of skeet in a weekend when they were open, generally late winter and early spring. After I graduated I came home and hit almost everything I shot at. What I've found is not many places to shoot skeet around here. I have gone to Hillsboro and shot there, it's nice but a long drive. I shot sporting clays there on the mobile clays launcher trailer and shot pretty well for the first time. My advice would be to shoot skeet and then shoot some more skeet. It makes you learn to swing and follow through or you will miss, period. Now does anybody know of a skeet course closer to me? I have shot at Mallardith Kennels in Scappoose but don't think they have a regular deal going.

[Trout Tako]

Three - I thought I'd throw another $.01 in for good measure:

I too am extremely left eye dominant & shoot Right handed. When duck hunting over Dekes & getting to watch those birds come in (& taking long swings on the birds) bad shooting on my part can almost always be pegged on letting that left eye creep open, especially when the birds are coming in from the left. I seem to do more "watching" with both eyes, rather than "Pointing" with one. To correct this I dont pull up untill the lats minnute.

Interesting side note: Get a big sheet of butcher paper & put a point of reference in the center of it. Then pull up & shoot it @ 30 yds or so with BOTH EYES OPEN. You'll be amazed at your inaccuracy.

Tako

[billc_sbio]

Steelheadslayer,

What!!! No Skeet up your way?!!

Wow, that's terrible!

Dollar for Dollar Skeet IS the best practice Claybird game for duplicating "typical" hunting shots!

If you can find an open range with not too many shooters waiting to shoot, see if they'll let you do this...

You can take the stations 2-5 and back up a bit, add another 3-5 yards (depending on station) to your birds and get some little greater distance on those crossing birds!

Geez, I'd think that from between Castle Rock and Vancouver there oughta be SOMETHING?!! Hmm...maybe an "opportunity" for someone who wanted to set up a range?!! Too bad.

I once lived out in Scappoose and could shoot Skeet at what was Brown's... So Bruce Meredith (Mallardith) is doing the dogs there now?!!