.270 Question

Chromaflage · 12-31-2003, 01:06 AM

I have seen a lot of recommendations for .270 rifles for women and youth hunters. I hunted for several years with a Rem BDL .270 until I got a Ruger 30-06 (bolt). In my experience, that .270 has considerably more thump to it that my 06. Now, I'm not one to get recoil jitters, but after shooting about a dozen rounds through that .270, I've felt like someone has taken baseball bat to my shoulder. I can shoot my 06 all day long. What gives here? Any ideas?

ORS

billc_sbio · 12-31-2003, 01:39 AM

Hmm...unless there's something really "different" about your .270 rifle, it doesn't make much sense why it should kick MORE than your .30-06.

After all, the .270 is really just a '06 case, necked down to shoot lighter .277" dia. bullets a little faster.

Chromaflage · 12-31-2003, 01:45 AM

Yup - my theory has always been that a .270 pushes the same amount of gas as the 06, but through a smaller hole ...i wonder if that has anything to do with it. I believe that, other than the bullet dia., everything else is about equal.

billc_sbio · 12-31-2003, 02:27 AM

Hmm...shudn't. It's really the WEIGHT of the bullet (plus 1/2 the weight of the powder) x velocity vs. the "total" weight of the rifle (+ scope, accessories, etc.).

Don't know what the EXACT formula is...maybe some of our enlightened physics experts can clarify this for us. But those ARE the variables.

The "felt" recoil can be affected by things like synthetic vs. wood stock, drop of the stock, and recoil pad. But the "Actual" recoil won't change.

Felt recoil can also be different between certain different powder types, most notably smokeless vs. blackpowder, wherein the smokeless will generate ~85% of its total pressure in the first 6" of the barrel, where BP will generate its (lower) peak pressure initially, then maintain that for most of the length of the barrel, giving the shooter the impression of a "push" rather than a "jolt".

Shotgun powders can do this too, wherein a slightly slower powder can seem "gentler" while shooting at the same velocity...i.e. "Green Dot" vs. "Red Dot" etc.

[ 12-31-2003, 03:43 AM: Message edited by: billc_sbio ]

KingFisher85 · 12-31-2003, 03:19 AM

I've never notice much recoil out of a 270win but all I shoot out of mine is 130gr bullets. But I did notice that it all depends on how your shooting it.
Oh man I hate shooting 270, 308 ect ect prone like. Even on a bench, if you are leaning forward a little, your shoulder will be a hurting unit. Seems like more of the gun is resting on your shoulder bone. But if you are standing, your gun is fitted to your shoulder better, gun is resting on more meat = less of a felt/hurting recoil.

I have a hard time explaining this stuff in words...but I try...hope you get what I'm trying say.

The Overfishin Condition · 12-31-2003, 07:02 AM

I too have noticed this. My .270 seems to be a real thumper- and it has no recoil pad. But when I shoot my dads 06, although it has a recoil pad, it barely seems to kick at all. Maybe it just feels that way relative to the .270 but I might as well be shooting a .22 with the felt kick on the 06, whereas the .270, same deal, 20 rounds and my I'm wincing every shot from about 15+ because my shoulder is getting so tender. I've shot a 06 in the exact same model as my .270 with temporary pads on both, and I'm not sure but I think the .270 might have punched more, it could have just been sharper. Anyway, no answers, just the same question.

wife&3kids · 12-31-2003, 07:40 AM

I have shot a pre 64 mod 70 270 as my shooter for 15 years. No recoild pad -130 gr. never realized it had any kick. 300 wby on other hand kicks a little. One of my sales guys thinks that anything less than a 338-378 is too light.. Thought I was going to win the argument until he proved me wrong ballistically. I don't normally argue until I know the facts, but this time I did and lost... [img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img]

StickFish · 12-31-2003, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by OregonRedside:
Yup - my theory has always been that a .270 pushes the same amount of gas as the 06, but through a smaller hole ...i wonder if that has anything to do with it. I believe that, other than the bullet dia., everything else is about equal.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Rocket effect could be at play here, but I suspect the difference in the stock design more than anything else.

Also all things being equal other than the bore diameter, if the same amount of gas was pushed down a smaller bore, pressure would increase exponentially

Chromaflage · 12-31-2003, 07:59 AM

W&3K - I agree - on paper is one thing - application and confidence another. My dad and his whole family shot nothing but 270s their whole lives - deer and elk. In fact, my grandfather dropped an elk stone cold with that 270 at 350 yards. He was an excellent shot with that gun. I was the first in the family to turn my nose up and get and '06...my dad harasses my about my "cannon." But I can shoot the wings off a fly at 300 yds all day long - without my shoulder being black and blue. :grin:

ORS

[ 12-31-2003, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: OregonRedside ]

Rusty · 12-31-2003, 08:01 AM

I too, shoot a pre-64 Model 70 in the .270 caliber. I can shoot it all day long and experience no adverse problems with my shoulder. From all I have read, it appears that stock design, plus a lot of other variables, plays a major factor in shooting comfort. I have the "standard" or factory stock on mine, so maybe that helps. [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img]

Look in the stock theory, because all things being equal, your .270 should not punch you harder than an .06! :whazzup:

Rusty

[ 12-31-2003, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: Rusty ]

12-31-2003, 08:42 AM

The same amount of gas (burnt powder) is going out a smaller hole and it is going faster. This causes a sharper recoil.

SeanD · 12-31-2003, 09:07 AM

Stock fit and design. I dont think the rem BDL stocks are very recoil friendly. Try putting a pachmeyer decelerator on it.

Stock design is a huge factor. My 30-06 seems to kick much much less than my dads rem 700 BDL 30-06, although his is almost two pounds heavier and both have recoil pads.

My 35 whelen with the same 700 BDL stock kicks much less with the decelerator on it. Still kicks hard though, but the pad made a big difference. Same case as the 30-06, with a much bigger hole, and definatly kicks more than the 30-06.

Chromaflage · 12-31-2003, 09:14 AM

I think there's probably a lot of truth to all that's been offered here. My '06, a Ruger M77 Mk II is stainless/synth. The .270 is walnut. I can almost shoot that '06 with with one hand. Huge difference - thus the reason for this post. And based on my experience, I'd rather have my wife shoot the '06 rather than the .270.

ORS

Norski · 01-01-2004, 08:18 PM

I shoot at times my 3600 rem .270, 180 grain and I enjoy it a lot, now I did do a deal and got rid of a springfield 30/06, and when I take a shot at the range or out in the field, I like the .270 over the 30/06.
The deer or the elk I have taken with the .270, at the range of 425 yards ran maybe 15 yards and drope.
The kick of the semi 3600, .270 is like shooting a .410 shotgun, I think.
And for the .308, well what can we say, it's a all a round gun, and the kick I think is like a 12 gauge shotgun.
When you are out in the field, and you get a shot, you wont feel a thing, SHOOT AWAY, ENJOY.
RIVER-RAT.

Flatfish · 01-01-2004, 08:36 PM

Gun weight and stock design have huge impacts on felt recoil. Monte carlo stocks look cool. But, they do not manage recoil very well. Light guns kick harder.

Between the 2 cartridges, both burn about 58-60 grains of powder. And the difference in bullet weight is somewhat offset by the higher speeds attained by the 270. So recoil between the two is not too noticeable...Until you change the stock and or weight of the gun.

Good Hunting.

Mark and the dog.

Snapset · 01-01-2004, 08:51 PM

Whatever the answer is, you ain't imagining it, Redside. I have felt it too. In fact, I shot an identical 270 to my A-bolt 7 mag and the 270 felt like it kicked a lot harder.

dla · 01-01-2004, 09:13 PM

OregonRedside: Weight. Nothing but weight. Light rifles kick harder than heavy ones.

Also how you mount the gun has a big effect. Some rifles have too short a length of pull and not enough drop. That combination will cause you to hold the heal of the butt pad out on your arm.

Standard loadings in the 30-06 will produce more recoil than standard loadings in the .270.

Chromaflage · 01-01-2004, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dla:
OregonRedside: Weight. Nothing but weight. Light rifles kick harder than heavy ones.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">One would think, but my Ruger '06 is actually noticeably lighter that the .270. I'm thinking that it would have more to do with the configuration of the stock. This whole thing isn't that big of a deal....I had just found it interesting seeing the recommendations for a .270 for youth and women. Believe me, my kids and wife would much rather shoot my '06 that my .270. It would be very interesting to shoot a .270 M77 MkII to comapar....hmmmm. [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img]

ORS

Washington Hunter · 01-02-2004, 12:33 AM

A lot of it has to do with what weight bullets you are shooting...I don't believe you ever stated that did you? In my 270 I use 150 grain bullets, and recoil is very mild. Of course it is even less with the 130's, which is probably what most people shoot out of a 270. This is out of a Browning A bolt, which is only around 6 3/4 lbs without the scope. If you told me that a 270 kicks more than a 30-06, both shooting 150 grain bullets, I might believe it. Your theory then would actually make sense. But compare a 30-06 with 180 grain to a 270 with 150, and I bet you would feel quite a bit more recoil from that 30-06 in that case.

Flatfish · 01-02-2004, 07:44 AM

Stock design. Look at all of the large bore rifles in the world. 90% of them have no Monte Carlo cheekpiece. The other 10% are Weatherbys usually.

This is not a fluke. Straight stocked rifled feel like they kick less.

One of the worst rifles I have ever shot was a .378 Weatherby. About 2 pounds lighter than a real monster stopper( .45 cal or greater), high speed, lots of powder, and the gas exits the barrel at high pressure. A real beast. Monte carlo stock too.

I have shot .416 Rigbys hot loaded, a .505 Gibbs wide open, and once a .577. None of them were as tough to manage as that .378.

There are a lot of little variables in recoil management. It sounds like you are beginning to see some of them.

Good Hunting.

Mark and the dog.

Rueben4life · 01-02-2004, 12:24 PM

A 150 grain of bullet with .30 cal equals the weight of a 150 grain .270 cal bullet. So that is not the difference if you were shooting bullets of identical weight.

Perhaps the difference you felt in recoil simply resides in from weights differences between rifles. Note a lighter highpower rifle shooting a bullet of smaller weight and diameter may kick noticeably harder than a heavier rifle shooting a heavier bullet of larger caliber.
Force = mass x acceleration plain and simple!

01-02-2004, 02:16 PM

I've noticed it with identical rifles. 140gr 270 and 165gr �06. The 270 was slightly heavier than the '06 due to bore diameter. The 270 has a sharper recoil.

dla · 01-02-2004, 06:42 PM

OregonRedside : There's no magic to this. If the Rem .270 is really heavier than the Ruger 06, then the .270 must be loaded hotter (mass X velocity).

If the Ruger synthetic flexes and soaks up some of the force, well that might explain your observations. But I'd put the rifles on the bathroom scale before I went any further.

Stock fit is important, as it effects the hold. Few people mount a rifle correctly until they're trying to master a heavy kicker. But that is another subject.

35WLN · 01-04-2004, 02:01 PM

I believe the felt recoil you are experiencing is due to the speed of the recoil. Lighter bullets with high velocities give a faster snap recoil. If you use heavier bullets and thus slower velocities the recoil is more towards a push. The best stocks to help with recoil are ones that have a low drop in heel, around .5 inches. I personally love remington's mountain rifle stock. I use it for heavier calibers like my 35 whelen and even my 280 rem that is for sale in the classifieds. Just a shameless plug.

scooby · 01-08-2004, 08:12 AM

Here is a link to a web page that has some great information not only on recoil but on many other shooting/rifle topics.

It seems that weight of the stock is as big of a factor as the weight of the bullet. But the shape/style of the stock would also impact the "felt" reciol.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table_exp.htm

billc_sbio · 01-08-2004, 10:28 AM

Yep, "Felt" recoil is a strange critter...

A good example of this is the "soft" recoil of gas operated semi guns...like a Rem. 1100 etc.

Besides the fact that that gun is about 1# heavier than a similar fixed breech pump, the WAY it bleeds off the gas causes the recoil to be divided up into "pulses". The first pulse being about 75% of the total recoil with the second being about 15% and the third being about 10%. The body senses the GREATEST pulse, the 75% one, and doesn't even notice the next two, they both being LIGHTER!

Of course with a bolt gun, lever gun, or single shot, you're just stuck with total weight and stock design. The heavier the less (actual) recoil...but if you have to carry it much, the heavier, the HEAVIER!