Retrieving issue

[Mello-Yello]

Hey gang,
I've got the beginning of what could turn into a huge problem if I don't snuff it out now.

Riley, my 4 mo old yellow lab, loves to retrieve. A problem that has occurred lately though, is upon returning he tends to want to run around me rather than delivering his fetch to hand. I suspect this is due in part to the fact that my wife comes home for lunch every day, and tries to make it a point to take him out and play fetch (partially for excersize, but moreso so he'll poop before being put back in for the afternoon). She's not much of a disciplinarian when it comes to Riley, it's all fun and games for them.

When he first started fetching, he loved to deliver his goods to hand, then one day, out of the blue, this thing started.

Does anyone have a bullet-proof method for correcting this?

Thanks in advance...

M-Y

[skahorse]

I also have a 4mo. lab, better color though, brown :grin: . The way I beat this was by playing fetch with him in a long hallway, indoors. He only has one place to go, and that's back to your hand. If you give him the freedom to run away, and you chase, he'll enjoy that much more. Dogs love to play keep-away from each other, one runs with the toy, the other chases. Don't encourage this while retrieving. If he runs, just leave, game over. Also, make sure that you are not playing fetch with the same toys he chews. He needs to associate one toy with retrieving, and the other with playing/keep away. This all comes second hand from the breeder of my pup. However, all of it is sound advice, and worked very well for me. Oh and the number one thing(perhaps the most important), make sure you and your wife are consistant. Hope this helps.

--Skahorse

[Chromaflage]

Same thing hapened with two of my dogs. Not really a big deal in my book. No bullet proof method, but here are a couple ideas:

1. Use a check cord. Start with short retrieves and when the dog gets the dummy haul 'em in with the cord - you can work on positioning later. Use a verbal command like "give" when you take it from him. Gradually exend the retrieves. I actually hauled my dogs in, made them sit at my feet while holding the dummy before I took it.

2. During a retrieve, when the dog is runing toward you, start running away from him - make him chase you to give it to you. Again, take the dummy with a verbal command.

I would recommend against chasing the dog, as it will start to think that it's an acceptable way of playing. MAKE the dog come to you.

One more thing - it sounds ike you and your wife need to get on the same page here - otherwise the dog will get confused.

Skahorse - I've got some black die for you - I'll bring it on the 2nd. :grin:

My .02

ORS

[ 12-30-2003, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: OregonRedside ]

[Hoosier Daddy]

Originally posted by OregonRedside:
2. During a retrieve, when the dog is runing toward you, start running away from him - make him chase you to give it to you. Again, take the dummy with a verbal command.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">This worked for my golden. Can also help speed up a slow retriever (like a golden!!)

[skahorse]

Black? Yuk! Who would want a black dog? :grin:

[Chromaflage]

Well, well, well....give a guy a brown lab for a few months and he turns into a chocolate snob. :grin:

[blackdog]

Who would want a black dog?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">I for one would!! :grin:

I also have a brown one, but she's fat and lazy. Loves to retrieve but eating is always #1.

Black dogs rule!

[skahorse]

Check the avatar... Now that's a good looking dog!

Black dogs have no personality... actually that makes perfect sense for you guys... :grin:

[Chromaflage]

That's it, YOU'RE wearing the funny orange PFD!

Here's what labs were meant to look like until they started screwing with the fur color. :grin:



Mello - hope you got your question addressed - sorry to bomb your thread here. :grin:

[ 12-30-2003, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: OregonRedside ]

[James in Idaho]

Ditto the hallway. Four months is still pretty young, always leave him wanting a little more. With my 10 week old, 3 or 4 hallway retrieves are plenty. Don't play keep away, and it helps if you can mention that to your wife. But then, I'm divorced, so don't take ANYTHING I say about marriage without a truck load or two of salt!!!!!

[FishinTechnician]

Keep it simple!! Keep your wife out of the training equation until after the dog is trained! To big a risk of confusing the dog with conflicting information. She can throw dummies or handle the dummy launcher. All the important work should be coming from you, alone. He should be getting all the exercise he needs during your training sessions.

[foxer]

Actually, everybody knows the only real lab color is yellow :grin:

[Mello-Yello]

Thanks for the input guys. Fortunately/Unfortunately, you didn't tell me anything I didn't already know. I guess I was hoping for some "quick-and-easy" solution. The wife's been relieved of fetching duties for a week or so already "you can imagine how that went over..." I had to explain to her that it's not her fault...that went over real well too....sigh :depressed:

Oh well...

I'd never tried the hallway, that's a good idea. Unfortunately, Riley's so big now, we don't do fetching in the house anymore (4 mos Thursday and he's a solid 50 lbs). Tonight I tried something that I think is gonna work real well. Our back porch, which is suspended about 5' off the ground (no roof, just rails like a small deck), is about 5'x6', with stairs leading down to the the back yard, hillside, etc. Riley goes into his "stay" stance, I toss birdy down the hill. I send Riley on the fetch. Riley comes back up to the porch, where I'm waiting with my back to him. Once he clears the steps, I back up, thus blocking the stairs. At this point, he delivers to hand with little hesitation. Seems to work pretty well. It's pretty darn similar to a duck blind when you think about it. He's very agressive both coming and going, so that's good. He has to run down the hill to get it, then back up the hill on the retrieve, so he's getting some great excersize in the process.

Hopefully, this will engrain into his thick skull (he has one of them for sure) how the whole process works.

As for Yellow vs. Black vs. Chocolate...I dunno, they're all beautiful dogs. Yellow is just my preference...maybe cuz I'm just a Mello kinda guy....

Thanks again...

[Chromaflage]

Originally posted by Mello-Yello:

As for Yellow vs. Black vs. Chocolate...I dunno, they're all beautiful dogs. Yellow is just my preference...maybe cuz I'm just a Mello kinda guy....

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">
And that would make the rest of us who own black and brown, what? Oh, I can't wait to hear this one..... :grin: [img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img]

[billc_sbio]

Mello,

I wouldn't "panic" over him NOT retrieving every time to hand at age 4 months.

However, if you could get him to, by all means do!

Not ONLY retrieve to hand, but to heel and SIT first, then give to hand.

And oh yeah, time to give wifey her training too...make sure you're both on the same page.

NO reason to be building in bad habits if they can be avoided. It's just as easy to "do it right"!

Oh, and for you Chocolate lovers...check the AKC FC and AFC Champions for the last 50 years...almost ALL LABS, most BLACK, many YELLOW, an occasional CHOC-usually Canadian "CFC" (what's Choc?!! ) and an occasional "other" breed of retriever (usually Golden). These are the championships for ALL Retriever Breeds! No "Special Olympics" here!

[ 12-30-2003, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: billc_sbio ]

[Chromaflage]

Originally posted by billc_sbio:

Oh, and for you Chocolate lovers...check the AKC FC and AFC Champions for the last 50 years...almost ALL LABS, most BLACK, many YELLOW, an occasional CHOC-usually Canadian "CFC" (what's Choc?!! ) and an occasional "other" breed of retriever (usually Golden). These are the championships for ALL Retriever Breeds! No "Special Olympics" here!

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Well, even as a Black lab owner, I must say that the Chocolate lab population is not very well represented in that statistic. Don't chocolates have equal access to these titles? Does the number of titled choc's adequately represent the total percentage of labs that are choc? I think we'll have to bring the A.C.L.U. (American Chocolate Lab Union) in on this one....it just doesn't seem fair!

[ 12-30-2003, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: OregonRedside ]

[billc_sbio]

Hey ORS,

I really like the COLOR of the Chocolates...always wanted to get one (when I was planning on getting my first Lab).

Got hooked up with some serious Field Trial folks when conducting my search. They said, "Uh oh! We'd better straighten him out."

At least as they explained it, there's a big RIFT in the A.K.C. between the "Field Trial" crowd and the "Bench Show Dog" crowd. Almost like 2 different Groups and almost 2 different BREEDS! :depressed:

Well if you LOOK at the appearances of what each group thinks a Labrador Retriever (BTW, this goes for MOST "hunting" breeds also in the A.K.C.-"Show" and "Field"!) SHOULD look like, you can pretty easily SEE the difference!

And as it turns out the "Chocolate" color never was (originally) a "true" Lab color. It was always mostly BLACK and some YELLOWS. The Chocolate was a result of some of the show breeder's creativity (so I was told).

I'm not dissing all Chocolates. If folks like the color, so do I. It's just that I've always looked to Field Trial Champ stock for my pups and there's not much Chocolate available in those ranks.

[Chromaflage]

I really like the COLOR of the Chocolates

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Me too! I think they're neat looking dogs.

...there's a big RIFT in the A.K.C. between the "Field Trial" crowd and the "Bench Show Dog" crowd. Almost like 2 different Groups and almost 2 different BREEDS! :depressed:

Well if you LOOK at the appearances of what each group thinks a Labrador Retriever (BTW, this goes for MOST "hunting" breeds also in the A.K.C.-"Show" and "Field"!) SHOULD look like, you can pretty easily SEE the difference!

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">I agree here as well. The "show" dogs are larger, stockier, but shorter. Whereas the FT and working dogs are the leaner, sleeker, taller dogs that tend not to go above 80-85 pounds or so. Also, I have met some real "show snobs" out there. I tried to get in tight with one of the bigger local retriever clubs - whew, just as bad as Atlantic City during Miss America (don't ask me howI know this - I just do. :grin:

I'm not dissing Choc's either - it's a running joke between me and Skahorse...he's so proud of that pup. Frankly, I've never seen his dog except pics. I wish him well with that brown thing. :grin:

As far as myh dogs (2 of which are pic'd above) - the F on the left is from Oregon Retrievers. The M on the right is from Ebonstar Lean Mac Line, son of Sunnyview's Jokers Wild. I have an 8 mo old M pup from their litter last spring. He's in training now. Once I get him on birds, he's going on the auction block....great dog - wish I could keep him. :depressed:


ORS

[ 12-31-2003, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: OregonRedside ]

[billc_sbio]

Hehe it gets WORSE!

I have an English Setter too!

This is what I think an Eng. Setter should look like...this one's mine

http://community.webshots.com/photo/...0534YqYhWdSGjn

And this is what the Show folks think an Eng. Setter's supposed to look like.

http://www.esaa.com/gallery.html

[img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]

Geez...these dogs started out as hunting dogs. L@@K what they did to them!

[ 12-31-2003, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: billc_sbio ]

[Chromaflage]

Originally posted by billc_sbio:

And this is what the Show folks think an Eng. Setter's supposed to look like.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">:shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

I'd almost be embarassed to be seen with one of those in public. [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img]

Yours is a mighty fine looking setter!

ORS

[ 12-31-2003, 12:43 AM: Message edited by: OregonRedside ]

[Lured In]

M-Y...what you are describing is called "prey possession". It is nothing new and many (if not most) labs have this tendency at this age.

Keep in mind, the term 'retriever' is somewhat of a misnomer for a lab. That is what they can be trained to be, but not necessarily what they are born with. I read a study that talked about the natural tendencies of labs and how that makes them good retrievers. One of the tendencies is to chase motion. (ex: flying or falling objects). This is what we utilize to get them to go get what has been thrown or shot. But there is nothing that means they have to bring it back. The second tendency of labs is their desire to please. (its a working dog mentality, a lab wants a job to do). Put these two together and you can get the dog to bring it back. The key is to SHOW the dog what its job is. It will naturally chase and usually pick up a thrown object. It wants to please you, but doesn't know how. So, you have to show it. Either by encouraging the dog to return or by using a checkcord. From what I have seen, using a checkcord is almost always the best choice. Why? Becuase you never want to the dog to refuse a command or to not bring the object back. If you allow the behavior to continue, you WILL have bigger problems. Always, always praise the pup when it returns with the bird. (even if you have to drag it back with the check cord)). The dog will learn what pleases you.

Now with that said, fun retrieves are good at this age. Don't worry about 'delivering to hand' yet. Continue to work on obedience, esecially 'here' or 'come'.

Also, keep the retrieving sessions to a minimum number of retrieves (some say 3, others 5-10). The key is to end before the dog is ready, thus leaving the dog hungry for the next retrieving session. You can do this several times a day, but not too many retrieves per session. The hardest part of this is for us, not the dog. We all love to see our pups doing retrieves. So you will have to practice some personal discipline as well.

Lastly, after you pup is done teething (probably within the next two months) find a good trainer and work with them to Force Fetch (train) your dog. This will complete the initial steps to getting your pup to deliver to hand.

So, use a check cord (not a bad thing), limit the number of retrieves during a session and PRAISE your pup like a mad man when he brings you the bumper.

Good luck.

[Tilla]

All of the mentioned corrections age great:
Check cord, hallway, running away, etc.
But....
It comes down to basics. You don't do what you cannot control. He is a retriever...so what's new, you know that.
Go back to Here, heel, sit, stay....you need that first.
If he completely understood here/come, heel (start on lead)then you wouldn't be where you are now.
I know everyone wants to go out and throw marks for their dog, but that is for later or reward for doing the homework right.
At least this is how a pro trainer thinks.
I (and someone else who posted ) know where you can find a pro who will give you a private $20 lesson and get this fixed right.

[billc_sbio]

Lured In and Tilla just gave you some really good advice!

The main thing in training dogs (any animals for that matter) is to learn to communicate your desires to them effectively.

Tilla, pointing out the "back to basics", made a good point. Training dogs is done like putting something together with building blocks...you have to get the foundation in there first and you can't proceed until the bottom steps are firmly in place.

I think everything has a hierarchy. When I train a new pup the first command I teach them is "No!"

I'm not harsh and I don't beat on 'em, but their mother does the same thing and let's them know who's the boss and what isn't pleasing and establishes how to let them know they've crossed the line and to stop/change what they're doing.

Next command is "Come" and I do this by sometimes tossing an object, just inside the room a few feet, and having them bring it back if they will. I also get them to come right at meal time and when they see that dish and I call them, things just go together so nicely...that's positive reinforcement. Out in the field, if it takes a check cord to make it work...so be it.

Next command is "Heel", and they get this constantly while walking at my side while on a lead. BTW, they get walk AT my side not somewhere near my side...they get sharp little tugs on the lead and a sore neck if they persist in trying to be anywhere but right alongside of me! You see dogs tugging and dragging their owner along by the lead? That's a real No No! No tugging! Heal, right here! Slack lead...

Next command is "Sit". They learn this when at Heel or when away from my side. I try to teach them to sit automatically when at Heel when I stop walking. By the time they're 3 months old they know this command from the whistle also. Later "Heel" means "Come and Sit right HERE, when I standing stationary"

ALL of this is learned, drilled, repeated over and over BEFORE they are ever asked to do any serious retrieving. They never stop getting drilled on this. Just other things are added to the drill...building blocks!

Now here's one thing that I think a lot of people don't understand that I firmly believe...

People think of "training" a dog as the sessions you do...formal "training sessions" where time is set aside for the dog to be taught, and hopefully learn, tasks, both new and redundant.

Well that's right. However, I believe that EVERYTHING you do with the dog is "training", EVERYTHING!

Just like us, things that are "input", stimulus in our daily lives we react to. That's how we learn, that's how dogs learn too.

So you have to build in an "Everything IS training" mentality. That's why it's really important that other family members who interact with your dog, especially a young pup, understand this too and don't end up "training" the pup the wrong habits! It's HARDER to "untrain" something undesireable the dog's learned to do than to train it the right way in the first place.

There are certain tasks you want the dog to ALWAYS do the same way! For these tasks the drill remains the SAME all the time...redundancy...over and over and over!

There are other tasks where you know the dog is going to have to learn to "adjust" to a variety of situations and scenarios. For these tasks you want to set up your training so these are CHANGED frequently. These que the dog to learn how to adapt to different situations...that this task is NOT always the same and thus "mix up" the routine.

[ 12-31-2003, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: billc_sbio ]