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Old 03-10-2017, 06:56 AM   #121
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Originally Posted by Wild Chrome View Post
"natural"? I'm not sure that's all that relevant anymore.
That's the problem. The standards for flow and thermal are the problem, they are in spirit to make the river closer to a "natural" state. Pre structure standards which you admit they are striving for are considered very very poor. Looks like you are starting to get this, finally.

So in summary PGE is striving to make the river match more closely to the Portland conditions that once existed, I'd say they are succeeding.

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Old 04-05-2017, 07:47 PM   #122
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

http://www.ifish.net/board/showthrea...5#post13971785
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Old 04-10-2017, 11:40 AM   #123
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

Deschutes water quality study. Looks like DRA has produced some reading material.

http://images.wolfpk.com/deschutesri...AL-4-10-17.pdf
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Old 04-16-2017, 03:10 PM   #124
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Originally Posted by StumpySteelheader View Post
Wild Chrome, I get the impression you serve as an apologist for PGE. I could be wrong.

Steve Pribyl, retired district fish biologist for ODFW in The Dalles is seen at 42 seconds into the video clip with a bass. He reported elsewhere of catching several bass this past year.

I caught a bass within a mile of Mac's this past year, and several others further downstream.

The Deschutes has been my steelhead river since 1973. As I mature, I have increasingly enjoyed my time on the river; this current change, for the worse, and committed by PGE, flies in the face of good stewardship and my experience on the river.

If the video is not perfect in your eyes, ok. Is there merit in the message? I believe so emphatically.
No, Wild Chrome is not a PGE apologist. He is the Sean Spicer of PGE/Tribe World, a new place where the smallmouth are all beautiful and the trout eat algae, not insects.
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Old 04-20-2017, 07:54 AM   #125
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

I have no ties to PGE or ODFW, other than I have met and respect many of their biologists. Speaking of which, here's the ODFW report on lower Deschutes trout health:

http://www.dfw.state.or.us/agency/co...ril%202017.pdf

Guess what........they're healthy..........
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Old 04-20-2017, 07:34 PM   #126
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Originally Posted by Wild Chrome View Post
I have no ties to PGE or ODFW, other than I have met and respect many of their biologists. Speaking of which, here's the ODFW report on lower Deschutes trout health:

http://www.dfw.state.or.us/agency/co...ril%202017.pdf

Guess what........they're healthy..........
This is great to hear! So apparently there are no issues and the hundreds of people who spend thousands of days on the river combined are completely imagining any potential issues. I feel much better now after reading this ODFW report. Meanwhile, I see water temps on the Madras gauge are almost 50 degrees already during one of the coldest and wettest springs that we have experienced in decades.
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Old 04-21-2017, 08:18 AM   #127
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Originally Posted by feathachucka View Post
This is great to hear! So apparently there are no issues and the hundreds of people who spend thousands of days on the river combined are completely imagining any potential issues. I feel much better now after reading this ODFW report. Meanwhile, I see water temps on the Madras gauge are almost 50 degrees already during one of the coldest and wettest springs that we have experienced in decades.
Did you notice ODFW reported the current lower Deschutes trout growth rates are slightly better than the average from decade's past? Likely has a lot to do with warmer spring temps extending the growing season.
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Old 04-21-2017, 12:19 PM   #128
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Originally Posted by feathachucka View Post
Meanwhile, I see water temps on the Madras gauge are almost 50 degrees already during one of the coldest and wettest springs that we have experienced in decades.
That is good. Sounds like it is working. Remember that they want it warmer in the spring so the fish can start growing earlier in the year.

What temp would you prefer right now?

The Willamette is also right at 50 F now despite the cold wet spring and only a few days of sunshine so far....
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Old 04-22-2017, 01:24 AM   #129
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Originally Posted by hawg boss View Post
That is good. Sounds like it is working. Remember that they want it warmer in the spring so the fish can start growing earlier in the year.

What temp would you prefer right now?

The Willamette is also right at 50 F now despite the cold wet spring and only a few days of sunshine so far....
I did not see any comments on smallmouth population. Are they growing faster? Are they being electroshocked further up river? What does ODFW feel the impact of just this one species will be as they thrive in an enhanced environment? Vital data missing.
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Old 04-22-2017, 08:11 AM   #130
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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I did not see any comments on smallmouth population. Are they growing faster? Are they being electroshocked further up river? What does ODFW feel the impact of just this one species will be as they thrive in an enhanced environment? Vital data missing.
http://www.dfw.state.or.us/fish/loca...on_9-19-16.pdf

Guess you missed this earlier in the thread.
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Old 04-23-2017, 08:25 PM   #131
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Originally Posted by hawg boss View Post
That is good. Sounds like it is working. Remember that they want it warmer in the spring so the fish can start growing earlier in the year.

What temp would you prefer right now?

The Willamette is also right at 50 F now despite the cold wet spring and only a few days of sunshine so far....
Temp at Moody is 3.6F degrees warmer than the Columbia. Call me crazy but somehow that doesn't seem right. But as you indicate, it is perfect and right on plan.
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Old 04-23-2017, 09:21 PM   #132
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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My point is that the trout in the video does not have black spot disease. Those are regular old rainbow trout leopard spots. Black spot disease spots occur over the scales and appear like little grains of sand. This is a perfect example of the anecdotal fallacies I've referred to in the past.
WC - what do you make of this picture? 'Regular old rainbow trout leopard spots'? This was one of over 20 fish caught this weekend on the Deschutes in the Warm Springs area. Every single fish had these spots on their bellies. In addition, a Bull Trout caught had the same spots. Anecdotal fallacy?

Get out, go check it out yourself and let us know what you find.


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Old 04-24-2017, 09:23 PM   #133
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

Glad the fishin' was good. That fish looks like it has black spot disease. I usually fish further downstream and haven't seen any like that.
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Old 04-26-2017, 07:30 AM   #134
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

Not sure how many of you caught the show “Fly Rod Chronicles” aired last week but it did a great job documenting the “Rapid Decline of the Deschutes.” The show was highlighted by droves of Pteronarcys and caddis (swarming on the bank like they used too), clear water, and robust redsides.It looked to me just like the river that the DRA described as a “bass pond and black hole of death.”I’d throw up a link but it is non-sponsor material so it will likely get removed.It’s nice to see DRA’s assertions corroborated…. Seven years into the "Tower of Terror stranglehold on the lower Deschutes" and sure looked to be ruined to me....

If you google the show two episodes will likely come up. One with his daughters and one with just him and Elke, the show with just Curtis and Elke is the one I’m referring too.

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Old 04-26-2017, 09:35 AM   #135
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Question Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Originally Posted by AlseaAssassin View Post
Not sure how many of you caught the show “Fly Rod Chronicles” aired last week but it did a great job documenting the “Rapid Decline of the Deschutes.” The show was highlighted by droves of Pteronarcys and caddis (swarming on the bank like they used too), clear water, and robust redsides.It looked to me just like the river that the DRA described as a “bass pond and black hole of death.”I’d throw up a link but it is non-sponsor material so it will likely get removed.It’s nice to see DRA’s assertions corroborated…. Seven years into the "Tower of Terror stranglehold on the lower Deschutes" and sure looked to be ruined to me....

If you google the show two episodes will likely come up. One with his daughters and one with just him and Elke, the show with just Curtis and Elke is the one I’m referring too.
Not sure what yours and Wild Chrome's connection with the "project" is but I am wondering why you so vociferously defend it.
Something doesn't add up here and of course neither of you will post your real names.
I'm not accusing you two of anything underhanded just wondering why you two are such a strong advocate of this whole thing.
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:46 AM   #136
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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I'm not accusing you two of anything underhanded just wondering why you two are such a strong advocate of this whole thing.
Check out my User Name. It's not a coincidence. I'm surprised more Deschutes fishermen and guides aren't stoked by the prospect of hundreds or possibly thousands more wild steelhead in the Deschutes.

Wild steelhead:
1) Bite better (more and harder)
2) Fight better
3) Take a fly better
4) Run bigger on average
5) Put money in Deschutes guides' pockets
6) Reproduce on their own
7) Are threatened in the region
8) Belong in the river

......and I like to catch wild salmon too.........
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Old 04-26-2017, 03:57 PM   #137
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Originally Posted by Wild Chrome View Post
Check out my User Name. It's not a coincidence. I'm surprised more Deschutes fishermen and guides aren't stoked by the prospect of hundreds or possibly thousands more wild steelhead in the Deschutes.

Wild steelhead:
1) Bite better (more and harder)
2) Fight better
3) Take a fly better
4) Run bigger on average
5) Put money in Deschutes guides' pockets
6) Reproduce on their own
7) Are threatened in the region
8) Belong in the river

......and I like to catch wild salmon too.........
.....and this project helps wild steelhead because??????
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Old 04-26-2017, 05:11 PM   #138
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Originally Posted by Shane Stewart View Post
.....and this project helps wild steelhead because??????
Because the hypothetical, experimental, population of hatchery fish released above the project come from stock that may have at one point been native to the Deschutes?
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Old 04-26-2017, 05:27 PM   #139
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

From a guide who has been running multi-day trips on the D for decades -
"the fisheries are in trouble, and it's won't change for the better until we can first get a consensus there is actually a problem."

If you can't find consensus among the fishermen, how in hell are you going to find it with everybody else..?
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Old 04-26-2017, 05:51 PM   #140
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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.....and this project helps wild steelhead because??????
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Old 04-26-2017, 08:25 PM   #141
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Originally Posted by Shane Stewart View Post
Not sure what yours and Wild Chrome's connection with the "project" is but I am wondering why you so vociferously defend it.
Something doesn't add up here and of course neither of you will post your real names.
I'm not accusing you two of anything underhanded just wondering why you two are such a strong advocate of this whole thing.
The reason I am such a strong advocate for the project is reintroduction above high head dams is the only way populations will ever get delisted in the Columbia Basin. Almost every major tributary outside of the John Day has a high head dam and reconnection to former habitat is the only way we get back former abundance levels. The production potential locked up upstream of those projects is the key to robust populations of wild fish. Advocacy should be focused on reconnection and ecosystem function first and foremost. And to be fair I am totally open to adaptive management to decrease temps in the lower river and address the other physical water quality concerns. What I am not open to is the abandonment of reintroduction or calling it a failure yet.

I get to see what the potential is when I look at my home river the Clackamas. Without successful fish passage that river would zero wild chinook (we got back ~3500 last year) and roughly fifty percent of its wild steelhead and coho. The benefits of connection to the habitat upstream of a north Fork are real and soon they will be on the Deschutes too.

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Old 04-27-2017, 07:24 AM   #142
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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.....and this project helps wild steelhead because??????


Really? You guys either :

1) Are not aware that the intent of fish passage at Pelton is to re-establish wild runs above. (and this could be replicated on other rivers)

or

2) Demand instant success.
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Old 04-27-2017, 09:45 AM   #143
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Really? You guys either :

1) Are not aware that the intent of fish passage at Pelton is to re-establish wild runs above. (and this could be replicated on other rivers)

or

2) Demand instant success.
Yes really! Do you honestly expect us to believe that ODFW,PGE and the Warm Springs Tribe are going to try to rebuild historic runs with...wait for it.....HATCHERY FISH??????
No, I don't expect instant results but knowing how the whole broodstock thing works i.e spawning fitness etc. I don't expect any results.
Please remind us what the early returns have been so far.
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Old 04-27-2017, 10:05 AM   #144
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

I'm guessing you're not aware that the decision to use hatchery fish was based in large part on:

1) They could be introduced above the dams without concern of importing disease from other basins (they could be bred clean in the hatchery).

2) The Round Butte hatchery stock were originally derived from upper Deschutes wild fish - are thought to be genetically designed to survive there.

Sure, their fecundity will be below that of a wild equivalent, but it is well above zero. Where hatchery fish show clear inferiority in reproduction is when they are spawning where wild fish are already present. They ain't present above the project......

Again, people here are looking for instant success.
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Old 04-27-2017, 10:34 AM   #145
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Originally Posted by feathachucka View Post
This was one of over 20 fish caught this weekend on the Deschutes in the Warm Springs area. Every single fish had these spots on their bellies. In addition, a Bull Trout caught had the same spots. Anecdotal fallacy?

Warm Springs area? Probably Warm Springs fish. I am sure you know that fish move around and that the temps in the WS river get very warm.

Also, don't forget that black spot disease is not very harmful to the fish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlseaAssassin View Post
Not sure how many of you caught the show “Fly Rod Chronicles” aired last week but it did a great job documenting the “Rapid Decline of the Deschutes.” The show was highlighted by droves of Pteronarcys and caddis (swarming on the bank like they used too), clear water, and robust redsides.It looked to me just like the river that the DRA described as a “bass pond and black hole of death.”I’d throw up a link but it is non-sponsor material so it will likely get removed.It’s nice to see DRA’s assertions corroborated…. Seven years into the "Tower of Terror stranglehold on the lower Deschutes" and sure looked to be ruined to me....

If you google the show two episodes will likely come up. One with his daughters and one with just him and Elke, the show with just Curtis and Elke is the one I’m referring too.
I think the title Was "Salmon Fly". I don't watch much fishing on tv, but I did watch this and another recently. Not many bugs anymore, no trout either lol!

The other show was about the Bass on the John Day. The show was called "50 places to fly fish before you die".

The guide supported some of my previous comments about bass. He said the John Day has the largest run of Wild Steelhead in the US, I believe. This is despite a population of bass that is several thousand fish per mile. I think he said 3,000 per mile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Stewart View Post
Not sure what yours and Wild Chrome's connection with the "project" is but I am wondering why you so vociferously defend it.
Something doesn't add up here and of course neither of you will post your real names.
I'm not accusing you two of anything underhanded just wondering why you two are such a strong advocate of this whole thing.
Funny that when people are informed about something they must be connected with it.
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Old 04-27-2017, 10:48 AM   #146
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

[QUOTE=hawg boss;14078833]Warm Springs area? Probably Warm Springs fish. I am sure you know that fish move around and that the temps in the WS river get very warm.

Also, don't forget that black spot disease is not very harmful to the fish.


😂😂. You just continue to refuse to believe there is anything but greatness coming from SWW! You have a spin for each and every possible negative result identified. And you wonder why people assume you are connected to this project.

So let me get this straight. First people were lying about fish having black spot disease and now that proof is provided you change your position and are now suggesting that any fish with black spots are not Deschutes fish but rather are from other rivers?! What's next, DRA is planting fish with spots in the Deschutes to make their case?!

Regarding your comment about black spot disease not being harmful, I don't agree. The disease itself may not be harmful per se but the signals it represents about what the trout are feeding on certainly is cause for concern. In addition, the fact this is a new phenomenon since SWW should also be reason for concern.
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Old 04-27-2017, 10:50 AM   #147
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Originally Posted by Wild Chrome View Post


Really? You guys either :

1) Are not aware that the intent of fish passage at Pelton is to re-establish wild runs above. (and this could be replicated on other rivers)

or

2) Demand instant success.
OR... want to see this project accomplish its goal WITHOUT negative impact on what we have!
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Old 04-27-2017, 10:51 AM   #148
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Originally Posted by Shane Stewart View Post
Yes really! Do you honestly expect us to believe that ODFW,PGE and the Warm Springs Tribe are going to try to rebuild historic runs with...wait for it.....HATCHERY FISH??????
No, I don't expect instant results but knowing how the whole broodstock thing works i.e spawning fitness etc. I don't expect any results.
Please remind us what the early returns have been so far.
The NFS type people were opposed to this project before it started. I was at some of the workshops and heard these complaints as early as 2005. The argument that the hatchery fish would harm the wild fish could not be used since no wild fish were present.

Before you start bashing a project based on one phase of it, educate yourself about the other phases.

Using Hatchery fish is the start.
They will eventually be passing all wild Spring and Fall Chinook and Steelhead.
Also all of the Sockeye are wild.
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Old 04-27-2017, 10:51 AM   #149
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Funny that when people are informed about something they must be connected with it.
Have you been paying attention here? These two members are informed alright but they continue to regurgitate the same old company line by mostly denying there is a problem.
Obviously there have been adverse changes to the lower Deschutes. AA and WC will only marginally admit that.
I don't know about WC but AA has stated he works for or has worked for ODFW right?
I appreciate that both of them are polite when they post

Quote:
Using Hatchery fish is the start.
They will eventually be passing all wild Spring and Fall Chinook and Steelhead.
Also all of the Sockeye are wild.
Eventually? What kind of time frame are we talking about here. Your statement is a laughable at best and I can assure you that I have indeed educated myself as to the folly of trying "train" hatchery fish to mimic wild fish.
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Old 04-27-2017, 11:09 AM   #150
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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😂😂. You just continue to refuse to believe there is anything but greatness coming from SWW! You have a spin for each and every possible negative result identified. And you wonder why people assume you are connected to this project.

So let me get this straight. First people were lying about fish having black spot disease and now that proof is provided you change your position and are now suggesting that any fish with black spots are not Deschutes fish but rather are from other rivers?!
I have not changed my opinion on this. And I am not suggesting that all fish with BSD are from other rivers. I don't think my comments are unreasonable.
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Old 04-27-2017, 11:21 AM   #151
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This is all so friction funny. I told my self to stay out of this but it's hard.

All I can say is see you in court. PGE and it's accomplices are operating outside of the law. DRA has published it's findings and posted it's complaint. PGE and accomplices tried to get this dismissed because they know they're in trouble.

For the PGE propaganda machine I give you this, there was no problem pre project at least not from the perspective of the people whom collectively have an insurmountable amount of knowledge and history about this river. Was it perfect, no but the thing has a dam on it and massive problems upriver from there.

You guys take a look at what's going on with the B-runs, we're gonna lose that race of steelhead if we're not careful, maybe we already have. The actual run of deschutes steelhead isn't that good and seems to be getting worse. A bunch of biologists trying to play god is not a good thing. They think they are doing good while all the rest of us see what's going on. There's a 800 pound gorilla in the room, we can see it, we can call it out but for some reason these guys just can't see it. Shame on you guys, shame.
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Old 04-27-2017, 11:24 AM   #152
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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I have not changed my opinion on this. And I am not suggesting that all fish with BSD are from other rivers. I don't think my comments are unreasonable.
You're kidding right. Do you know where the Warm Springs river is? Jamey was fishing a long way upriver from there. And for your information the black spot fish are up and down the river. I do think it's funny that you think warm water in the warm springs river is the culprit. Warm water....hmmmm?
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Old 04-27-2017, 11:28 AM   #153
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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I don't know about WC but AA has stated he works for or has worked for ODFW right?
I appreciate that both of them are polite when they post
I feel like AA has been pretty transparent that he works for PGE, as a bio, on one of their west side projects. And while I may have waved at him in passing on the river, I do not personally know him. With that said, everyone who I know, that knows him personally/professionally seems to agree that he's pretty outstanding on a personal level, and an excellent bio.
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Old 04-27-2017, 11:30 AM   #154
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

And I got one more thing for Hawg Boss. You pointed at a post I made about finding trout in the steelhead runs. You missed my point by a wide mile. The point is there are no bugs, the fish are not in the feeding lanes. In an effort to find some food they are in the middle of the river eating periwinkles and snails, thats a huge friction problem.

What are you're out migrating hatchery smolt from above the project gonna eat on their way out? Oh wait, we could truck them all the way to the ocean and call it fish passage.
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Old 04-27-2017, 11:30 AM   #155
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Have you been paying attention here? These two members are informed alright but they continue to regurgitate the same old company line by mostly denying there is a problem.
Obviously there have been adverse changes to the lower Deschutes. AA and WC will only marginally admit that.
I don't know about WC but AA has stated he works for or has worked for ODFW right?
I appreciate that both of them are polite when they post



Eventually? What kind of time frame are we talking about here. Your statement is a laughable at best and I can assure you that I have indeed educated myself as to the folly of trying "train" hatchery to mimic wild fish.
Others that are in favor of the project have also been accused of being connected to the project.

As far as when wild fish will be passed, I believe that will happen as soon as they figure out how to catch a certain percentage of the smolt, or get better survival of the ones they pass.

Collecting fish at night is a good start IMO, and Last years Sockeye return would suggest to me that better survival will happen when they quit handling and marking every smolt.

Maybe trying to get them to pass all of the wild fish that show up in the trap would be a better use of time than trying to end the program.
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Old 04-27-2017, 11:35 AM   #156
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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I feel like AA has been pretty transparent that he works for PGE, as a bio, on one of their west side projects. And while I may have waved at him in passing on the river, I do not personally know him. With that said, everyone who I know, that knows him personally/professionally seems to agree that he's pretty outstanding on a personal level, and an excellent bio.
While that is all true, that doesn't make him right. I am personally friends with Steve Prybil who is also very respected, and knowledgeable. Garth has an issue with Steve's position, Steve has an issue with Garth's position. One knows a hell of a lot more about the Deschutes than the other, I'll let you guess which one.

Along those same lines, the folks at DRA are not a band of clueless clowns with no regard for reality. These are all very accomplished people in their fields who care about the changes to the Deschutes and how those changes may impact the future of the fishery.
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Old 04-27-2017, 12:11 PM   #157
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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What are you're out migrating hatchery smolt from above the project gonna eat on their way out? .
Your pioint before was that the trout were all gone, I think you said dead. And I would expect the smolt to eat some of the swarms of bugs that can be seen in the above mentioned fishing show. Why don't you ask that guide what he thinks of the program.

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You're kidding right. Do you know where the Warm Springs river is? Jamey was fishing a long way upriver from there. And for your information the black spot fish are up and down the river. I do think it's funny that you think warm water in the warm springs river is the culprit. Warm water....hmmmm?
He said in the WS area. and fish can swim "a long way" upriver.

I think that I heard that 90% of the WSR Spring Chinook died recently. I think it is safe to guess that the WSR got a lot warmer than the rest of the Deschutes.
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Old 04-27-2017, 12:46 PM   #158
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Your pioint before was that the trout were all gone, I think you said dead. And I would expect the smolt to eat some of the swarms of bugs that can be seen in the above mentioned fishing show. Why don't you ask that guide what he thinks of the program.



He said in the WS area. and fish can swim "a long way" upriver.

I think that I heard that 90% of the WSR Spring Chinook died recently. I think it is safe to guess that the WSR got a lot warmer than the rest of the Deschutes.
Go back and read the post again, you're misconstruing what I said and widely missing the general point.
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Old 04-27-2017, 12:48 PM   #159
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Maybe trying to get them to pass all of the wild fish that show up in the trap would be a better use of time than trying to end the program.
How many fish is that? Do you have evidence this would lead to better results? If so please share with the group.
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Old 04-27-2017, 01:12 PM   #160
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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While that is all true, that doesn't make him right. I am personally friends with Steve Prybil who is also very respected, and knowledgeable. Garth has an issue with Steve's position, Steve has an issue with Garth's position. One knows a hell of a lot more about the Deschutes than the other, I'll let you guess which one.

Along those same lines, the folks at DRA are not a band of clueless clowns with no regard for reality. These are all very accomplished people in their fields who care about the changes to the Deschutes and how those changes may impact the future of the fishery.
Steve has forgotten more about the Deschutes than I will ever know and I freely admit that. However when it comes to fish passage and how to make it work I've got a heck of a lot more experience than Steve. Which is likely why I still support this project and his patience has expired. I get to see successful passage on a daily basis and I'm hear to say that it is possible. It took us dang near 50 years of limping along and have made more strides in 5 years than the previous 50. However if we hadn't been able to build off the foundation learned early on we wouldn't be where are at now. That's why I'm giving them some time to figure it out. The numbers we're putting out on the Clackamas are the strongest in the lower Columbia and Willamette. The same can be done on the Deschutes with time.

"Along those same lines, the folks at DRA are not a band of clueless clowns with no regard for reality. These are all very accomplished people in their fields who care about the changes to the Deschutes and how those changes may impact the future of the fishery."

I agree with your regarding a couple of the individuals but regarding the overall tactics of the DRA they are clearly making claims that are not true. That video is so full of BS it hurts to watch Sam. If DRA wants to be taken seriously by managers they need to stick with the data and save the hyperbole. Any group who claims the lower Deschutes is now a "bass pond" and "black hole of death" has either not spent anytime on the river (which you and I know is not the case) or is blatantly mischaracterizing situation. I can't respect any group who makes some of the claims that were embedded within that video.

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Old 04-27-2017, 02:06 PM   #161
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Steve has forgotten more about the Deschutes than I will ever know and I freely admit that. However when it comes to fish passage and how to make it work I've got a heck of a lot more experience than Steve. Which is likely why I still support this project and his patience has expired. I get to see successful passage on a daily basis and I'm hear to say that it is possible. It took us dang near 50 years of limping along and have made more strides in 5 years than the previous 50. However if we hadn't been able to build off the foundation learned early on we wouldn't be where are at now. That's why I'm giving them some time to figure it out. The numbers we're putting out on the Clackamas are the strongest in the lower Columbia and Willamette. The same can be done on the Deschutes with time.

"Along those same lines, the folks at DRA are not a band of clueless clowns with no regard for reality. These are all very accomplished people in their fields who care about the changes to the Deschutes and how those changes may impact the future of the fishery."

I agree with your regarding a couple of the individuals but regarding the overall tactics of the DRA they are clearly making claims that are not true. That video is so full of BS it hurts to watch Sam. If DRA wants to be taken seriously by managers they need to stick with the data and save the hyperbole. Any group who claims the lower Deschutes is now a "bass pond" and "black hole of death" has either not spent anytime on the river (which you and I know is not the case) or is blatantly mischaracterizing situation. I can't respect any group who makes some of the claims that were embedded within that video.
Fair enough. I just think and others as well that the way forward is not yet clear. SWW may very well play an important role in the way forward but not with the current plan, like I said the solution is not clear but this isn't working.
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Old 04-27-2017, 02:07 PM   #162
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Why don't you ask that guide what he thinks of the program.
I sent him a note, we'll see what he has to say. Careful what you ask for.
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Old 04-27-2017, 05:59 PM   #163
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Question Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Others that are in favor of the project have also been accused of being connected to the project.

As far as when wild fish will be passed, I believe that will happen as soon as they figure out how to catch a certain percentage of the smolt, or get better survival of the ones they pass.

Collecting fish at night is a good start IMO, and Last years Sockeye return would suggest to me that better survival will happen when they quit handling and marking every smolt.

Maybe trying to get them to pass all of the wild fish that show up in the trap would be a better use of time than trying to end the program.
Hmmm
So let me see if I am understanding you here. Are you saying that returning hatchery fish are going to spawn in the Upper Deschutes, Metolius and Crooked rivers thus providing the foundation for future generations of wild spawning fish?
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Old 04-27-2017, 07:56 PM   #164
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Hmmm
So let me see if I am understanding you here. Are you saying that returning hatchery fish are going to spawn in the Upper Deschutes, Metolius and Crooked rivers thus providing the foundation for future generations of wild spawning fish?
Pretty sure that's exactly what he said Shane (with the exception they wer planted as fry not smolts). Kinda like hatchery spring Chinook did on the Clackamas, Sandy, South Santiam, Fall Creek, and Clearwater. Lets do everyone a favor and not divert this into a hatchery versus wild thread. Hatchery fish do just fine colonizing suitable unoccupied habitat. It's been proven many times over and not worth rehashing. You're a Native Fish Socoiety guy right? Go ahead and ask Bill if those examples are legitimate.

Back to your normal programming....

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Old 04-28-2017, 07:06 AM   #165
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Your pioint before was that the trout were all gone, I think you said dead. And I would expect the smolt to eat some of the swarms of bugs that can be seen in the above mentioned fishing show. Why don't you ask that guide what he thinks of the program.
You asked for it. Here is what the guide in the video thinks.

"To all my family & friends..we had just finished up our part in a Deschutes river documentary earlier today..and we feel totally 100% satisfied..this will help put a spot light on PGE for their part on destroying the Deschutes river..I'm truly upset and angered that they are lying to the tribes & public.. on the rivers current status...the high tribal positions from the dam are telling our own people that nothing is wrong with the Deschutes...I'm want to drag them to the places that no longer support any kind of fish life..the many areas that are over grown with alge..too the ares that we have not caught steelhead in over 3 years now...I want to shove that alge down their throats...the group that is paid by PGE...DRC..Deschutes river conservancy...gets an Annual 200k each year for filling the people of warmsprings bs..a big reward...that should be a good reason to lie about our river conditions. Right ?..yep it's happening here and now...while these people make millions off the dam from you tribal members...the river is seriously Dying...I don't get how many of you in warmsprings cannot see this..and pretend nothing is happening...your all getting screwed over...I will say it again & again...if these current conditions keep happening...the lower Deschutes will be extinct of all native trout ..salmon..steelhead..eels..except the non native species like bass..they are making their way up river farther than ever before ...its on record...I'm thinking to put together some open meetings here in warmsprings..many different speakers..of different areas of impact...not everyone can understand what I'm getting at..so a meeting will definitely explain way more than of what I speak...I wish to see other leaders.. to stand with me and help spread the truth...remember..Extinction is the key element in what this alge will do..our salmon & steelhead dipping at shearers bridge...will also be gone ...I'm already at other battles for our rivers..and I cannot do it alone..this also goes to my non tribal friends...the other half of the river is yours also...the Deschutes conditions are even being held from the public in the city & from the media...and that's expected..because of the false reports that PGE announced for their studys...they have been doing false reports..year after year...some of you know me and some of you don't..so at least go and see for yourselves..don't listen to those in high power here in for PGE..our leaders need to use another outside source to conduct their own tests..on the Deschutes river...other than PGE....because in reality...why would one cut their own lifeline of major money to fix their mistakes ...that's called controlled motive for profit ..when one is in control & trusted in the same regards of a high power of GOVERNMENT authority ...¿ "


Got some more Deschutes guides you want input from, I'm happy to ask for you.
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Old 04-28-2017, 07:42 AM   #166
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

Same guide who points to (lacking) cliff swallow nests in the DRA video where they're trying to link SWW with a decline in violet-green swallows?
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Old 04-28-2017, 08:40 AM   #167
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Same guide who points to (lacking) cliff swallow nests in the DRA video where they're trying to link SWW with a decline in violet-green swallows?
Spin, deny, discredit.... You guys crack me up! You make an argument, dare for someone to prove otherwise, then when it happens you go another direction with your tactics. That's ok, you can just stand by and keep telling yourself that all is good. Meanwhile, hundreds of others will continue to fight this in effort to help the health of the river we love. Oh and by the way, you will benefit despite your stubbornness to open your eyes and see that something is not right....

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Old 04-28-2017, 09:13 AM   #168
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Oh and by the way, you will benefit despite your stubbornness to open your eyes and see that something is not right....
Remove the word "not", and you'll see how I feel about the guides at this point.

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Got some more Deschutes guides you want input from, I'm happy to ask for you.
Nah, I'll stick to the biologists opinions, thank you. They seem to have more data and fewer false statements backing up their claims.

I badly want more wild salmon and steelhead in the Deschutes and won't support efforts to derail the re-introduction above the project without a slam dunk case against it. I think the negative changes on the lower river are mainly right below the dams and have been exacerbated badly by a drought that's now over.
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Old 04-28-2017, 10:04 AM   #169
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Pretty sure that's exactly what he said Shane (with the exception they wer planted as fry not smolts). Kinda like hatchery spring Chinook did on the Clackamas, Sandy, South Santiam, Fall Creek, and Clearwater. Lets do everyone a favor and not divert this into a hatchery versus wild thread. Hatchery fish do just fine colonizing suitable unoccupied habitat. It's been proven many times over and not worth rehashing. You're a Native Fish Socoiety guy right? Go ahead and ask Bill if those examples are legitimate.

Back to your normal programming....
Oh I will indeed ask him and others...may I have your real name as reference? PM it to me if you like.
Back to the Deschutes. How long do you anticipate that a viable population from hatchery origin will appear?
How many juveniles are released? How have the returns been so far?
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Old 05-01-2017, 04:31 PM   #170
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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Same guide who points to (lacking) cliff swallow nests in the DRA video where they're trying to link SWW with a decline in violet-green swallows?

Have you ever watched those swallows dipping and diving and picking off hatching insects? So, if they are in decline, isn't it possible that it is due to a decline in their insect feed? You try to ridicule the guide because he points to his observation that there is something wrong with the swallows, which, if you want to know, are dependent on the condition of the river and its insect inhabitants. You state it like there is no way that there could be a possible connection between a swallow decline and PGE/Traitor Tribes destruction of the river and its environment.

Now, I don't know if such a connection can actually be proven, but to dismiss the possibility as if the guide said that there are no orangutans on the Deschutes and this is due to the PGE project. Get real, man!!!

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Old 05-03-2017, 09:57 AM   #171
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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How many fish is that? Do you have evidence this would lead to better results? If so please share with the group.
Different each year. In 2015 it was 139 wild Steelhead, 128 wild Spring Chinook and 1,325 wild Fall Chinook. ODFW and many on this site have claimed that wild fish have better spawning success. It also makes sense to me to let fish choose where they want to spawn.

https://www.portlandgeneral.com/corp...ly-fish-counts

Have you ever fished the Crooked above Prineville? The habitat between Prineville and Bowman dam is probably the best habitat above the dams. ODFW has not released any fish in this area. I would bet that 100-500 wild Chinook spawning in this section would produce a lot of smolt.

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Hmmm
So let me see if I am understanding you here. Are you saying that returning hatchery fish are going to spawn in the Upper Deschutes, Metolius and Crooked rivers thus providing the foundation for future generations of wild spawning fish?
Yes, and they will also pass the wild fish mentioned above. It is in the plan that you are familiar with.
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Old 05-03-2017, 10:24 AM   #172
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

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You asked for it. Here is what the guide in the video thinks.

"To all my family & friends..we had just finished up our part in a Deschutes river documentary earlier today..and we feel totally 100% satisfied..this will help put a spot light on PGE for their part on destroying the Deschutes river.

.the group that is paid by PGE...DRC..Deschutes river conservancy...gets an Annual 200k each year for filling the people of warmsprings bs..a big reward...that should be a good reason to lie about our river conditions..
Is he talking about the DRA video? We all know how DRA feels.

Why did he not even mention PGE "destroying" the Deschutes in the show I watched? Seems strange to me. It also seems strange that they made a point to show the swarms of bugs, and trout eating them.

He is attacking the Deschutes River Conservancy?
Deschutes River Conservancy is doing far more to protect water in the Deschutes than DRA imo.
http://www.deschutesriver.org/

Their latest projects seem to be keeping almost 300 cfs in the river that would be lost in irrigation canals etc.
http://www.deschutesriver.org/what-we-do/drc-projects/

Sounds like a well informed opinion...

He also thinks the trout are going to be extinct...
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Old 05-04-2017, 07:14 AM   #173
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

Jacksalmon - you completely missed my point. The nests he points to in the video are from a different species of swallow that has declined throughout the NW. (ie the DRA guides are better fishermen than biologists).
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Old 05-04-2017, 08:40 AM   #174
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes


I’ve been more of a lurker on the website, but have fished the Deschutes consistently at least one week nearly every year since 1980. I have noticed the total loss of the craneflies and reduced caddis hatches, and more slime on the rocks, and generally warmer water since the SWW has gone into operation. Nevertheless, with respect to the operation of the SWW and license renewal of the RB facility, I have a few more technical questions on the operation of the SWW for those who may know.


1. I have to assume that as part of the re-licensing of the RB complex, FERC required PGE to build a computer model that would set the requirements for water temperature, flow and chemistry at the Pelton release site, correct?

2. Is the model based on the desire to have the release water at Pelton match the mixture of the inflow sources at their inflow points? Would that be a mixture from the Metolius, Whychus Creek, Deschutes and Crooked Rivers?

3. What parameters from each source are used? What is the frequency of that input data and how often is the model run?

4. But, the water that is actually introduced into the SWW does not directly come from the actual inflow points, but is picked up in the lake strata at the intake points for the SWW. So, are water samples taken at the SWW intake points as often as the river source points and at the same frequency? And, are adjustments made to the water that is introduced into the SWW from the lake to adjust for differences between it and the supposed source of that water at the river inflow points? For example, does the computer model just assume that surface water in LBC at the SWW is the same as inflow water from the Crooked River at the head of the lake? Both temperature and chemistry?

5. What is the range of the target window for the released water at Pelton that is allowed PGE before it must adjust the sources of intake water at the SWW?

6. Was PGE’s computer model approved by FERC before the re-licensing was granted? Was the model subject to peer review then? Can the model be accessed now by the public? Does PGE release the model runs on a timely basis so that the public can see what efforts are being made and how quickly PGE can adjust the release water temperature and chemistry to maintain the target composition? Or is the model proprietary and not available to public scrutiny?

7. I don’t have any ideological problem with reintroducing native anadromous fish upstream of the dams, and that requires both upstream and downstream transport. The method of doing that transport should be selected on the basis of the method that is the least disruptive of the target water chemistry and temperature to be released from Pelton as determined above. Thus, if operating the SWW to successfully collect downstream smolts makes it more difficult to meet the target composition for the released water, then trapping and trucking on both ends should be done instead because that won’t change the water chemistry or temperature of the released water. Cost should be a factor only to the question whether reintroduction should be done at all, and not a factor for living with degraded water downstream. Maintaining good water quality downstream should be priority #1, with reintroduction priority #2.

8. As for the impacts of weather, drought, floods, ocean conditions, etc., which have impacted the Pacific NW rivers, I’m sure a study could be done to measure the impact those factors had on other rivers over the last few years and compare that to the Deschutes since 2010. Proper statistical analysis must take into account extraneous causes.

9. One wrinkle. I assume that PGE will argue that it’s not their job to adjust the SWW to compensate for changes in land use and water use upstream in the Deschutes and Crooked basins. The flows down the Middle Deschutes (and probably the Crooked) are most probably a fraction of their historical flows and their chemistry probably somewhat different also. But, if the released water model and compensation for changes in water temperature and chemistry between the inflow points and the intake points at the SWW, that would be a good start.

10. A final question. What happens to temperature and chemistry of the water as it passes through Lake Simtustus and then into Pelton? Where is the water drawn from Simtustus and from Pelton? What impact does incubation and the source of water released from those two regulating reservoirs have on the release from Pelton? If a negative impact, can any adjustments be made at those release points or upstream at the SWW to compensate? Are any such adjustments actually made?

11. Finally, as to whether the Columbia or Deschutes is colder than the other, the data for the Columbia temperature used for comparison was at The Dalles Dam, which is downstream of the Deschutes at Moody. To make an accurate analysis of whether fish are or are not drawn into the Deschutes, one would need temperature data for the Columbia just upstream of the Deschutes inflow, and then overlay the respective temperature data for the same time periods on the same graph. Has that been done? And, even if the data show that the Deschutes is cooler, if the difference is small, perhaps the mixing causes the fish not to feel enough difference to duck into the Deschutes. Perhaps the difference needs to be 2-3 degrees before the fish will try the Deschutes.


Love to hear answers from those who know. Thanks. LRV
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Old 05-08-2017, 01:23 PM   #175
spates
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry V View Post

I’ve been more of a lurker on the website, but have fished the Deschutes consistently at least one week nearly every year since 1980. I have noticed the total loss of the craneflies and reduced caddis hatches, and more slime on the rocks, and generally warmer water since the SWW has gone into operation. Nevertheless, with respect to the operation of the SWW and license renewal of the RB facility, I have a few more technical questions on the operation of the SWW for those who may know.


1. I have to assume that as part of the re-licensing of the RB complex, FERC required PGE to build a computer model that would set the requirements for water temperature, flow and chemistry at the Pelton release site, correct?

2. Is the model based on the desire to have the release water at Pelton match the mixture of the inflow sources at their inflow points? Would that be a mixture from the Metolius, Whychus Creek, Deschutes and Crooked Rivers?

3. What parameters from each source are used? What is the frequency of that input data and how often is the model run?

4. But, the water that is actually introduced into the SWW does not directly come from the actual inflow points, but is picked up in the lake strata at the intake points for the SWW. So, are water samples taken at the SWW intake points as often as the river source points and at the same frequency? And, are adjustments made to the water that is introduced into the SWW from the lake to adjust for differences between it and the supposed source of that water at the river inflow points? For example, does the computer model just assume that surface water in LBC at the SWW is the same as inflow water from the Crooked River at the head of the lake? Both temperature and chemistry?

5. What is the range of the target window for the released water at Pelton that is allowed PGE before it must adjust the sources of intake water at the SWW?

6. Was PGE’s computer model approved by FERC before the re-licensing was granted? Was the model subject to peer review then? Can the model be accessed now by the public? Does PGE release the model runs on a timely basis so that the public can see what efforts are being made and how quickly PGE can adjust the release water temperature and chemistry to maintain the target composition? Or is the model proprietary and not available to public scrutiny?

7. I don’t have any ideological problem with reintroducing native anadromous fish upstream of the dams, and that requires both upstream and downstream transport. The method of doing that transport should be selected on the basis of the method that is the least disruptive of the target water chemistry and temperature to be released from Pelton as determined above. Thus, if operating the SWW to successfully collect downstream smolts makes it more difficult to meet the target composition for the released water, then trapping and trucking on both ends should be done instead because that won’t change the water chemistry or temperature of the released water. Cost should be a factor only to the question whether reintroduction should be done at all, and not a factor for living with degraded water downstream. Maintaining good water quality downstream should be priority #1, with reintroduction priority #2.

8. As for the impacts of weather, drought, floods, ocean conditions, etc., which have impacted the Pacific NW rivers, I’m sure a study could be done to measure the impact those factors had on other rivers over the last few years and compare that to the Deschutes since 2010. Proper statistical analysis must take into account extraneous causes.

9. One wrinkle. I assume that PGE will argue that it’s not their job to adjust the SWW to compensate for changes in land use and water use upstream in the Deschutes and Crooked basins. The flows down the Middle Deschutes (and probably the Crooked) are most probably a fraction of their historical flows and their chemistry probably somewhat different also. But, if the released water model and compensation for changes in water temperature and chemistry between the inflow points and the intake points at the SWW, that would be a good start.

10. A final question. What happens to temperature and chemistry of the water as it passes through Lake Simtustus and then into Pelton? Where is the water drawn from Simtustus and from Pelton? What impact does incubation and the source of water released from those two regulating reservoirs have on the release from Pelton? If a negative impact, can any adjustments be made at those release points or upstream at the SWW to compensate? Are any such adjustments actually made?

11. Finally, as to whether the Columbia or Deschutes is colder than the other, the data for the Columbia temperature used for comparison was at The Dalles Dam, which is downstream of the Deschutes at Moody. To make an accurate analysis of whether fish are or are not drawn into the Deschutes, one would need temperature data for the Columbia just upstream of the Deschutes inflow, and then overlay the respective temperature data for the same time periods on the same graph. Has that been done? And, even if the data show that the Deschutes is cooler, if the difference is small, perhaps the mixing causes the fish not to feel enough difference to duck into the Deschutes. Perhaps the difference needs to be 2-3 degrees before the fish will try the Deschutes.


Love to hear answers from those who know. Thanks. LRV
LRV- I am the senior aquatic biologist for the Pelton Round Butte Project, I'll try to answer your questions.

1. There were many studies involved with the planning and design of the SWW. There are links to most of the reports and studies on our website www.portlandgeneral.com/deschutes passage. also phone numbers and email address to contact PGE to ask questions.

2. The primary design criteria behind the SWW were to minimize the impact of the Project reservoirs on temperature in the Deschutes below the Reregulating dam. the models account for the combined volume and temperature of the three major tributaries Crooked middle Dechutes and Metolius, as well as inflows to the reservoirs.

3.There are formulas based on inflow discharge temperature and volume-blends are adjusted based on 7day moving average maximum daily temperature. these criteria are reguired by the DEQ and Warm Springs Water Control board.

4.The realtime continuous monitoring occurs at the Madras USGS guage just below the reregulating reservoir

5. Temperature management is initiated when the release temperature reaches 13 degrees centigrade. That is a requirement of the water quality regulations

6. The models used to design the SWW were reviewed and approved by the regulatory agencies and the fish committee before being filed with FERC. 7.The release schedule is included with the annual water quality report (link on the website). The current schedule is determined by daily calculations made by our water quality specialist as warranted by the temperature management computer program. Deviations are reported to DEQ and the Tribes. One good predictor that the percent of bottom water will be increased is when we get those cold fronts comint through in the early summer. the inflow tributaries cool off very quickly, so to meet the without project in place temperature management requirement, the bottom release is increased to lower the trmperature. The cooler flow reaches the mouth of the Deschutes about two days later.

8.Regional analysis of the impacts of the recent drought would provide background information on the Deschutes. For example, record low flows and temperatures were seen throughout the region, also, the proliferation of stalked diatoms and black spot infestations on trout has occurred in many rivers. Its not that these phenomena are not significant concerns, indeed they are. But climate flow etc are factors that may prevent a simple 'fix' by changing Pelton Round Butte operations to what they were before SWW

9.We conducted a two year water quality and temperature monitoring study that included sites in the tributary inflows, reservoirs and the lower Deschutes (including tributaries below Pelton Round Butte) . that study was a followup to one done during the design phase. Data is being analyzed, to determine sources of nutrients, patterns of mixing and impacts to lower river water quality and productivity. Models will be developed to be used by the water quality regulatory agencies to assess problems and design operational changes, if warranted, to adapt and improve the SWW operations

10. See the #9 answer above. They are analyzing the changes in water quality as water released from Lake Billy Chinook flows through Lake Simtustus. Modeling scenarios will be used to determine if operational changes are possible. Pelton dam (Lake simtustus) has a bottom release that goes through the turbines. The reregulating reservoir has minimal impacts on downstream release as the turnover rate is very quick. The spill gates at the reregulating dam are used to reoxygenate the water in late summer and fall

11. I'm not aware of active temperature monitoring in the Columbia just above the Deschutes confluence-the fish sure seem to know when it feels better to them to chill in the lower D.



I hope I provided some useful information. Please contact our hotline or email for specific questions.

Tight lines.
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Old 05-11-2017, 07:41 PM   #176
Natethegreat
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

Although I don't know anything about the lower Deschutes I have been obsessively fishing the upper Deschutes for 5 years and can say that there are some major flow control issues in the stretch in Bend and up to the Benham Falls area. I'm sure you have seen the articles about thousands of fish being stranded yearly at the beginning of irrigation season. With all of the various impoundments in the area if you took a day long walk along the river you would see half a dozen or so different river levels varying from lower to higher than the week before in each individual section. It is almost impossible to keep track of, you just kinda show up to a stretch and hope for the best. The only benefit to anglers is that one of the sections is bound to be fish-able if the one you show up to is blown out (besides the very high water times). I cannot speak for the conditions from near Sunriver to Wickiup though.
I can tell you that in-between Wickiup and Crane-Prairie also has it's problems. The water coming out of Crane-Prairie is bathtub warm in the summer (I could swear it's above 65 at times) because of how shallow the water is at the dam. Two years ago I caught a sunfish of some kind on fly, I think either a bluegill or red ear, just below the Crane dam and one time I saw the filleted carcasses of two huge bass in the same spot, although it is possible someone just brought the bass from one of the reservoirs and gutted them at the river instead of catching them right there.
The point is that as an angler I get the strong feeling that the fish and fisherman get little to no consideration in the regulation of the water flows along the entire stretch of of the Deschutes . Yes, the hay farmers need water, but also yes, the irrigation regiments can be done in a more environmentally responsible manor. Maybe I don't know the studies and parties responsible, and maybe I am only relying on anecdotal evidence, but I do spend 2-3 days a week on the water observing the water levels first hand and it's effect on rainbow trout, brown trout, and whitefish, at least as to how it relates to the bend in my rod and the sound of my reel haha. I know a retired guy who used to be heavily involved in local fly fishing clubs who spends a ton of time doing the research and sending letters to organizations and politicians he believes can make a difference to no avail. What as a community can we do to change this? I have noticed that anglers tend to be a rather politically involved group and we wield some decent economic clout as the Oregon economy relies on tourism quite a bit and a good chunk of that (at least in Central Oregon) comes in the form of fishing.
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Last edited by Natethegreat; 05-11-2017 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 05-13-2017, 08:56 AM   #177
Larry V
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

Thanks to Spates for stepping up and replying to my questions. It definitely helps when the people actually involved in the FERC process and in implementing the mitigation program address our questions, in addition to others who may have tangental knowledge. Not to disparage the latter folks, but it's good to get inside the process. Below I have posted some follow up questions for spates which I hope he/she will answer directly.

1. I have to assume that as part of the re-licensing of the RB complex, FERC required PGE to build a computer model that would set the requirements for water temperature, flow and chemistry at the Pelton release site, correct? LRV- I am the senior aquatic biologist for the Pelton Round Butte Project, I'll try to answer your questions There were many studies involved with the planning and design of the SWW. There are links to most of the reports and studies on our website www.portlandgeneral.com/deschutes passage. also phone numbers and email address to contact PGE to ask questions. I imagine there are hosts of studies involved. But for the average angler without a degree in biology, those studies can get rather difficult to read and understand. So, we rely upon people like you to decipher them into ordinary language for us to understand.

2. Is the model based on the desire to have the release water at Pelton match the mixture of the inflow sources at their inflow points? Would that be a mixture from the Metolius, Whychus Creek, Deschutes and Crooked Rivers? The primary design criteria behind the SWW were to minimize the impact of the Project reservoirs on temperature in the Deschutes below the Reregulating dam. the models account for the combined volume and temperature of the three major tributaries Crooked middle Dechutes and Metolius, as well as inflows to the reservoirs. Here is an example of where, IMHO, you are trying to boil down the technical language of the studies, but are still being too opaque. So, to say “the primary design criteria were to minimize the impact on temperature below the Reregulating Dam” is fine as a goal. But “the models account for the combined volume and temperature of the three major tributaries” doesn’t really tell us how the model actually works and how precise the results are. Does the model account for the chemistry of the three sources at all? And, does it account for differences in temperature and chemistry between the inflow sources and the intake points for the SWW? Further, how exactly does the model account for differences in inflow volume if the intakes for the SWW are set up to create currents near the surface of LBC to attract downmigratimg smolts? I imagine that the latter two may conflict at times and so which goal takes precedence and what, if any, are other adjustments made to the SWW intake flow to keep temperature down while taking more water near the surface to create the currents?

3. What parameters from each source are used? What is the frequency of that input data and how often is the model run? There are formulas based on inflow discharge temperature and volume-blends are adjusted based on 7day moving average maximum daily temperature. these criteria are reguired by the DEQ and Warm Springs Water Control board. So, I assume that the formulas do not take into consideration the chemistry of the three sources, correct? If so, don’t you think that is a major oversight in the model? Certainly, incorporating those additional parameters would make the model and the formulas much more complex. But, that’s what needs to be done if there is truly to be proper and full mitigation of the impacts on the RB complex. As to the frequency of adjustment and the use of a 7 day moving average maximum daily temperature, I guess I find that difficult to accept. Why is the maximum daily temperature used? Why not use the minimum daily temperature? Further, I assume that each of the inflow sources would reflect daily fluctuations in temperature, perhaps the Crooked more than the Metolius, but the pre-dam situation would have resulted in a daily and hourly mixing of the sources and reflect a daily fluctuation in temperature anyway. If PGE is using an average of any set of temperatures over 7 days, doesn’t that result in the release water being uniform in temperature regardless of when during the day it is released? Does that really represent the pre-dam historical temperature regime?

4. But, the water that is actually introduced into the SWW does not directly come from the actual inflow points, but is picked up in the lake strata at the intake points for the SWW. So, are water samples taken at the SWW intake points as often as the river source points and at the same frequency? And, are adjustments made to the water that is introduced into the SWW from the lake to adjust for differences between it and the supposed source of that water at the river inflow points? For example, does the computer model just assume that surface water in LBC at the SWW is the same as inflow water from the Crooked River at the head of the lake? Both temperature and chemistry? There are formulas based on inflow discharge temperature and volume-blends are adjusted based on 7day moving average maximum daily temperature. these criteria are reguired by the DEQ and Warm Springs Water Control board. So, same follow up questions to your same answer to #3. The model does not take into account any chemistry parameters and you have not addressed whether and how it takes into consideration differences in temperature between the inflow sources and the intake points in the SWW. Could you explain that?

5. What is the range of the target window for the released water at Pelton that is allowed PGE before it must adjust the sources of intake water at the SWW? Temperature management is initiated when the release temperature reaches 13 degrees centigrade. That is a requirement of the water quality regulations. OK, but my question more went to how big a window is PGE allowed in the temperature of the release water before it must adjust the inflow sources throughout the season? So, for example, if the release water is within say 1-2% of the model’s predictive release temperature, is that good enough? Not how warm does the release water need to get before PGE must make an inflow adjustment at the SWW. So, is what you are saying that if the release water ever gets above 13 degrees C, PGE must adjust the inflow water to bring the release water back to 13 degrees C? Any time during the season? Or, are their difference thresholds for target release temperature as the season progresses? My assumption is that is the case because I undetrstand the goal was to raise river temperatures early in the spring and to reduce it later in the summer as compared to pre-SWW conditions. I assume that the measurement point for the release water is below Pelton. So, how long does it take a change in the SWW inflow water to show a change in river temperature below Pelton? I guess we’d like to see a bit more detail in explaining how the model works, while not having to wade through all the technical jargon in the reports.

6. Was PGE’s computer model approved by FERC before the re-licensing was granted? Was the model subject to peer review then? Can the model be accessed now by the public? Does PGE release the model runs on a timely basis so that the public can see what efforts are being made and how quickly PGE can adjust the release water temperature and chemistry to maintain the target composition? Or is the model proprietary and not available to public scrutiny? The models used to design the SWW were reviewed and approved by the regulatory agencies and the fish committee before being filed with FERC. 7.The release schedule is included with the annual water quality report (link on the website). The current schedule is determined by daily calculations made by our water quality specialist as warranted by the temperature management computer program. Deviations are reported to DEQ and the Tribes. One good predictor that the percent of bottom water will be increased is when we get those cold fronts comint through in the early summer. the inflow tributaries cool off very quickly, so to meet the without project in place temperature management requirement, the bottom release is increased to lower the trmperature. The cooler flow reaches the mouth of the Deschutes about two days later. OK, this is a helpful explanation. But I’m still a bit confused if the release water is cooled when a cold front comes through in early summer. If a cold front quickly cools off tributary inflows, wouldn’t that allow the mix at the SWW to draw warmer water to keep the aggregate river temperature at the target temp? Also, was there any serious critique of the model during the FERC approval process? Were there adjustments made to it from peer review? Is the model available to the public now so that DRA or others who understand computer models can run simulations and compare their results to the results reported by DRA? Remember, someone said “Trust, but verify.”

7. I don’t have any ideological problem with reintroducing native anadromous fish upstream of the dams, and that requires both upstream and downstream transport. The method of doing that transport should be selected on the basis of the method that is the least disruptive of the target water chemistry and temperature to be released from Pelton as determined above. Thus, if operating the SWW to successfully collect downstream smolts makes it more difficult to meet the target composition for the released water, then trapping and trucking on both ends should be done instead because that won’t change the water chemistry or temperature of the released water. Cost should be a factor only to the question whether reintroduction should be done at all, and not a factor for living with degraded water downstream. Maintaining good water quality downstream should be priority #1, with reintroduction priority #2. [No comment from the PGE Biologist]

8. As for the impacts of weather, drought, floods, ocean conditions, etc., which have impacted the Pacific NW rivers, I’m sure a study could be done to measure the impact those factors had on other rivers over the last few years and compare that to the Deschutes since 2010. Proper statistical analysis must take into account extraneous causes. Regional analysis of the impacts of the recent drought would provide background information on the Deschutes. For example, record low flows and temperatures were seen throughout the region, also, the proliferation of stalked diatoms and black spot infestations on trout has occurred in many rivers. Its not that these phenomena are not significant concerns, indeed they are. But climate flow etc are factors that may prevent a simple 'fix' by changing Pelton Round Butte operations to what they were before SWW. Yes, I understand, and to be fair to PGE, these regional and global factors must be taken into consideration. So, is PGE or anyone preparing a study of these extraneous factors? Someone should.

9. One wrinkle. I assume that PGE will argue that it’s not their job to adjust the SWW to compensate for changes in land use and water use upstream in the Deschutes and Crooked basins. The flows down the Middle Deschutes (and probably the Crooked) are most probably a fraction of their historical flows and their chemistry probably somewhat different also. But, if the released water model and compensation for changes in water temperature and chemistry between the inflow points and the intake points at the SWW, that would be a good start. We conducted a two year water quality and temperature monitoring study that included sites in the tributary inflows, reservoirs and the lower Deschutes (including tributaries below Pelton Round Butte) . that study was a followup to one done during the design phase. Data is being analyzed, to determine sources of nutrients, patterns of mixing and impacts to lower river water quality and productivity. Models will be developed to be used by the water quality regulatory agencies to assess problems and design operational changes, if warranted, to adapt and improve the SWW operations. Will PGE release the results of these studies and subject them to peer review? If so, when might we see them? To maintain trust from the fishing community and the public, PGE needs to be totally transparent with these studies.

10. A final question. What happens to temperature and chemistry of the water as it passes through Lake Simtustus and then into Pelton? Where is the water drawn from Simtustus and from Pelton? What impact does incubation and the source of water released from those two regulating reservoirs have on the release from Pelton? If a negative impact, can any adjustments be made at those release points or upstream at the SWW to compensate? Are any such adjustments actually made? See the #9 answer above. They are analyzing the changes in water quality as water released from Lake Billy Chinook flows through Lake Simtustus. Modeling scenarios will be used to determine if operational changes are possible. Pelton dam (Lake simtustus) has a bottom release that goes through the turbines. The reregulating reservoir has minimal impacts on downstream release as the turnover rate is very quick. The spill gates at the reregulating dam are used to reoxygenate the water in late summer and fall. Good. But what happens in Lake Simtustus?

11. Finally, as to whether the Columbia or Deschutes is colder than the other, the data for the Columbia temperature used for comparison was at The Dalles Dam, which is downstream of the Deschutes at Moody. To make an accurate analysis of whether fish are or are not drawn into the Deschutes, one would need temperature data for the Columbia just upstream of the Deschutes inflow, and then overlay the respective temperature data for the same time periods on the same graph. Has that been done? And, even if the data show that the Deschutes is cooler, if the difference is small, perhaps the mixing causes the fish not to feel enough difference to duck into the Deschutes. Perhaps the difference needs to be 2-3 degrees before the fish will try the Deschutes. I'm not aware of active temperature monitoring in the Columbia just above the Deschutes confluence-the fish sure seem to know when it feels better to them to chill in the lower D. Then perhaps a new temperature instrument should be installed just above the Deschutes confluence. And, do the temperature instruments measure water temperature at the surface or below, and if below, how far below? In the Deschutes (and other rivers I’ve fished) we assume that steelhead and salmon generally migrate near the bottom of the river, but I don’t know if that is true in a large river like the Columbia. Certainly in the ocean, these fish are not bottom dwellers. Nevertheless, it would appear to me that the water temperature differential between the Deschutes and Columbia should be measured at the depth where the fish are migrating to see what temperature differential is necessary to attract fish up the Deschutes.

Love to hear answers from those who know. Thanks. LRV
I hope I provided some useful information. Please contact our hotline or email for specific questions. Thank you very much for your replies. But we need more information. Keep it coming. LRV

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Old 05-13-2017, 02:41 PM   #178
BlueMax
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry V View Post
Thanks to Spates for stepping up and replying to my questions. It definitely helps when the people actually involved in the FERC process and in implementing the mitigation program address our questions, in addition to others who may have tangental knowledge. Not to disparage the latter folks, but it's good to get inside the process. Below I have posted some follow up questions for spates which I hope he/she will answer directly.

1. I have to assume that as part of the re-licensing of the RB complex, FERC required PGE to build a computer model that would set the requirements for water temperature, flow and chemistry at the Pelton release site, correct? LRV- I am the senior aquatic biologist for the Pelton Round Butte Project, I'll try to answer your questions There were many studies involved with the planning and design of the SWW. There are links to most of the reports and studies on our website www.portlandgeneral.com/deschutes passage. also phone numbers and email address to contact PGE to ask questions. I imagine there are hosts of studies involved. But for the average angler without a degree in biology, those studies can get rather difficult to read and understand. So, we rely upon people like you to decipher them into ordinary language for us to understand.

2. Is the model based on the desire to have the release water at Pelton match the mixture of the inflow sources at their inflow points? Would that be a mixture from the Metolius, Whychus Creek, Deschutes and Crooked Rivers? The primary design criteria behind the SWW were to minimize the impact of the Project reservoirs on temperature in the Deschutes below the Reregulating dam. the models account for the combined volume and temperature of the three major tributaries Crooked middle Dechutes and Metolius, as well as inflows to the reservoirs. Here is an example of where, IMHO, you are trying to boil down the technical language of the studies, but are still being too opaque. So, to say “the primary design criteria were to minimize the impact on temperature below the Reregulating Dam” is fine as a goal. But “the models account for the combined volume and temperature of the three major tributaries” doesn’t really tell us how the model actually works and how precise the results are. Does the model account for the chemistry of the three sources at all? And, does it account for differences in temperature and chemistry between the inflow sources and the intake points for the SWW? Further, how exactly does the model account for differences in inflow volume if the intakes for the SWW are set up to create currents near the surface of LBC to attract downmigratimg smolts? I imagine that the latter two may conflict at times and so which goal takes precedence and what, if any, are other adjustments made to the SWW intake flow to keep temperature down while taking more water near the surface to create the currents?

3. What parameters from each source are used? What is the frequency of that input data and how often is the model run? There are formulas based on inflow discharge temperature and volume-blends are adjusted based on 7day moving average maximum daily temperature. these criteria are reguired by the DEQ and Warm Springs Water Control board. So, I assume that the formulas do not take into consideration the chemistry of the three sources, correct? If so, don’t you think that is a major oversight in the model? Certainly, incorporating those additional parameters would make the model and the formulas much more complex. But, that’s what needs to be done if there is truly to be proper and full mitigation of the impacts on the RB complex. As to the frequency of adjustment and the use of a 7 day moving average maximum daily temperature, I guess I find that difficult to accept. Why is the maximum daily temperature used? Why not use the minimum daily temperature? Further, I assume that each of the inflow sources would reflect daily fluctuations in temperature, perhaps the Crooked more than the Metolius, but the pre-dam situation would have resulted in a daily and hourly mixing of the sources and reflect a daily fluctuation in temperature anyway. If PGE is using an average of any set of temperatures over 7 days, doesn’t that result in the release water being uniform in temperature regardless of when during the day it is released? Does that really represent the pre-dam historical temperature regime?

4. But, the water that is actually introduced into the SWW does not directly come from the actual inflow points, but is picked up in the lake strata at the intake points for the SWW. So, are water samples taken at the SWW intake points as often as the river source points and at the same frequency? And, are adjustments made to the water that is introduced into the SWW from the lake to adjust for differences between it and the supposed source of that water at the river inflow points? For example, does the computer model just assume that surface water in LBC at the SWW is the same as inflow water from the Crooked River at the head of the lake? Both temperature and chemistry? There are formulas based on inflow discharge temperature and volume-blends are adjusted based on 7day moving average maximum daily temperature. these criteria are reguired by the DEQ and Warm Springs Water Control board. So, same follow up questions to your same answer to #3. The model does not take into account any chemistry parameters and you have not addressed whether and how it takes into consideration differences in temperature between the inflow sources and the intake points in the SWW. Could you explain that?

5. What is the range of the target window for the released water at Pelton that is allowed PGE before it must adjust the sources of intake water at the SWW? Temperature management is initiated when the release temperature reaches 13 degrees centigrade. That is a requirement of the water quality regulations. OK, but my question more went to how big a window is PGE allowed in the temperature of the release water before it must adjust the inflow sources throughout the season? So, for example, if the release water is within say 1-2% of the model’s predictive release temperature, is that good enough? Not how warm does the release water need to get before PGE must make an inflow adjustment at the SWW. So, is what you are saying that if the release water ever gets above 13 degrees C, PGE must adjust the inflow water to bring the release water back to 13 degrees C? Any time during the season? Or, are their difference thresholds for target release temperature as the season progresses? My assumption is that is the case because I undetrstand the goal was to raise river temperatures early in the spring and to reduce it later in the summer as compared to pre-SWW conditions. I assume that the measurement point for the release water is below Pelton. So, how long does it take a change in the SWW inflow water to show a change in river temperature below Pelton? I guess we’d like to see a bit more detail in explaining how the model works, while not having to wade through all the technical jargon in the reports.

6. Was PGE’s computer model approved by FERC before the re-licensing was granted? Was the model subject to peer review then? Can the model be accessed now by the public? Does PGE release the model runs on a timely basis so that the public can see what efforts are being made and how quickly PGE can adjust the release water temperature and chemistry to maintain the target composition? Or is the model proprietary and not available to public scrutiny? The models used to design the SWW were reviewed and approved by the regulatory agencies and the fish committee before being filed with FERC. 7.The release schedule is included with the annual water quality report (link on the website). The current schedule is determined by daily calculations made by our water quality specialist as warranted by the temperature management computer program. Deviations are reported to DEQ and the Tribes. One good predictor that the percent of bottom water will be increased is when we get those cold fronts comint through in the early summer. the inflow tributaries cool off very quickly, so to meet the without project in place temperature management requirement, the bottom release is increased to lower the trmperature. The cooler flow reaches the mouth of the Deschutes about two days later. OK, this is a helpful explanation. But I’m still a bit confused if the release water is cooled when a cold front comes through in early summer. If a cold front quickly cools off tributary inflows, wouldn’t that allow the mix at the SWW to draw warmer water to keep the aggregate river temperature at the target temp? Also, was there any serious critique of the model during the FERC approval process? Were there adjustments made to it from peer review? Is the model available to the public now so that DRA or others who understand computer models can run simulations and compare their results to the results reported by DRA? Remember, someone said “Trust, but verify.”

7. I don’t have any ideological problem with reintroducing native anadromous fish upstream of the dams, and that requires both upstream and downstream transport. The method of doing that transport should be selected on the basis of the method that is the least disruptive of the target water chemistry and temperature to be released from Pelton as determined above. Thus, if operating the SWW to successfully collect downstream smolts makes it more difficult to meet the target composition for the released water, then trapping and trucking on both ends should be done instead because that won’t change the water chemistry or temperature of the released water. Cost should be a factor only to the question whether reintroduction should be done at all, and not a factor for living with degraded water downstream. Maintaining good water quality downstream should be priority #1, with reintroduction priority #2. [No comment from the PGE Biologist]

8. As for the impacts of weather, drought, floods, ocean conditions, etc., which have impacted the Pacific NW rivers, I’m sure a study could be done to measure the impact those factors had on other rivers over the last few years and compare that to the Deschutes since 2010. Proper statistical analysis must take into account extraneous causes. Regional analysis of the impacts of the recent drought would provide background information on the Deschutes. For example, record low flows and temperatures were seen throughout the region, also, the proliferation of stalked diatoms and black spot infestations on trout has occurred in many rivers. Its not that these phenomena are not significant concerns, indeed they are. But climate flow etc are factors that may prevent a simple 'fix' by changing Pelton Round Butte operations to what they were before SWW. Yes, I understand, and to be fair to PGE, these regional and global factors must be taken into consideration. So, is PGE or anyone preparing a study of these extraneous factors? Someone should.

9. One wrinkle. I assume that PGE will argue that it’s not their job to adjust the SWW to compensate for changes in land use and water use upstream in the Deschutes and Crooked basins. The flows down the Middle Deschutes (and probably the Crooked) are most probably a fraction of their historical flows and their chemistry probably somewhat different also. But, if the released water model and compensation for changes in water temperature and chemistry between the inflow points and the intake points at the SWW, that would be a good start. We conducted a two year water quality and temperature monitoring study that included sites in the tributary inflows, reservoirs and the lower Deschutes (including tributaries below Pelton Round Butte) . that study was a followup to one done during the design phase. Data is being analyzed, to determine sources of nutrients, patterns of mixing and impacts to lower river water quality and productivity. Models will be developed to be used by the water quality regulatory agencies to assess problems and design operational changes, if warranted, to adapt and improve the SWW operations. Will PGE release the results of these studies and subject them to peer review? If so, when might we see them? To maintain trust from the fishing community and the public, PGE needs to be totally transparent with these studies.

10. A final question. What happens to temperature and chemistry of the water as it passes through Lake Simtustus and then into Pelton? Where is the water drawn from Simtustus and from Pelton? What impact does incubation and the source of water released from those two regulating reservoirs have on the release from Pelton? If a negative impact, can any adjustments be made at those release points or upstream at the SWW to compensate? Are any such adjustments actually made? See the #9 answer above. They are analyzing the changes in water quality as water released from Lake Billy Chinook flows through Lake Simtustus. Modeling scenarios will be used to determine if operational changes are possible. Pelton dam (Lake simtustus) has a bottom release that goes through the turbines. The reregulating reservoir has minimal impacts on downstream release as the turnover rate is very quick. The spill gates at the reregulating dam are used to reoxygenate the water in late summer and fall. Good. But what happens in Lake Simtustus?

11. Finally, as to whether the Columbia or Deschutes is colder than the other, the data for the Columbia temperature used for comparison was at The Dalles Dam, which is downstream of the Deschutes at Moody. To make an accurate analysis of whether fish are or are not drawn into the Deschutes, one would need temperature data for the Columbia just upstream of the Deschutes inflow, and then overlay the respective temperature data for the same time periods on the same graph. Has that been done? And, even if the data show that the Deschutes is cooler, if the difference is small, perhaps the mixing causes the fish not to feel enough difference to duck into the Deschutes. Perhaps the difference needs to be 2-3 degrees before the fish will try the Deschutes. I'm not aware of active temperature monitoring in the Columbia just above the Deschutes confluence-the fish sure seem to know when it feels better to them to chill in the lower D. Then perhaps a new temperature instrument should be installed just above the Deschutes confluence. And, do the temperature instruments measure water temperature at the surface or below, and if below, how far below? In the Deschutes (and other rivers I’ve fished) we assume that steelhead and salmon generally migrate near the bottom of the river, but I don’t know if that is true in a large river like the Columbia. Certainly in the ocean, these fish are not bottom dwellers. Nevertheless, it would appear to me that the water temperature differential between the Deschutes and Columbia should be measured at the depth where the fish are migrating to see what temperature differential is necessary to attract fish up the Deschutes.

Love to hear answers from those who know. Thanks. LRV
I hope I provided some useful information. Please contact our hotline or email for specific questions. Thank you very much for your replies. But we need more information. Keep it coming. LRV

Great questions LRV

What Spates forgot to tell you was:

That the SSW is now limited to 65% lower discharge because of limitations in the Tower design as revealed in another thread on this subject. This means that there will always be at least 35% over the top year round through the SSW or TOD as I call it. I think this was unplanned and a big mistake...i.e. no flexibility now and down the road

Also PGE doesn't care what goes on at the Mouth because they don't think temperature discharges at the dams don't affect the temperature at the Mouth,,,which of course is false

NMFS does care and they don't want any strays up the Deschutes which was a big part of our runs in the past so as far as they are concerned delaying the run in the Deschutes by increasing the water temp at the Mouth is OK. When the temps get cool the remaining fish will head up the Deschutes much later than in the past.

The results of the operation of the Tower have delayed the run so that fish are not arriving at Pelton until September and large numbers don't get there till Jan-March of the next year. Look at their numbers.. links were provided above.

This of course affects all of us anglers that used to fish or get guided from July through November and guides that relied on that business during the fall.
It has completely changed the fishery... not to say anything about transfer of biological crud over the top year round.
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Old 05-13-2017, 05:11 PM   #179
Wild Chrome
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

Spates - Thanks for all your thoughtful info. You clearly have a deep understanding of the project and how it works.

Nate - Interesting observations from the upper Deschutes. Unfortunately, so little of the upper river's water makes it to the lower river that the Upper Deschutes input into the lower river is fairly insignificant.

Larry - Man, your last post is hard to read with all the colors. Makes me dizzy.

Blue Max - I disagree with just about everything you said. A few points: the reduced Snake River steelhead straying is mainly believed to be from less barging and more spill which started in 2006 per Judge Redden's order. It has nothing to do with SWW. Another point: The Deschutes steelhead have always made their major push over Sherar's falls in mid-September through mid October. Goes back decades. Nothing's changed there.
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Old 05-13-2017, 05:45 PM   #180
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Default Re: Rapid Decline of the Lower Deschutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Chrome View Post
Spates - Thanks for all your thoughtful info. You clearly have a deep understanding of the project and how it works.

Nate - Interesting observations from the upper Deschutes. Unfortunately, so little of the upper river's water makes it to the lower river that the Upper Deschutes input into the lower river is fairly insignificant.

Larry - Man, your last post is hard to read with all the colors. Makes me dizzy.

Blue Max - I disagree with just about everything you said. A few points: the reduced Snake River steelhead straying is mainly believed to be from less barging and more spill which started in 2006 per Judge Redden's order. It has nothing to do with SWW. Another point: The Deschutes steelhead have always made their major push over Sherar's falls in mid-September through mid October. Goes back decades. Nothing's changed there.
Regarding strays it looks like 07 through 2010 before Tower were high stray
years and after tower 2011-2015 extremely low stray years so I am from Missouri on this one

Regarding delayed return: The returns to Pelton have been zero in August since the Tower and I would love to see the numbers from he 70's, 80's and 90's because I was catching steelhead in August high in the river. I believe the fish were recycled back to the Mouth so they could run the gauntlet twice in some of those years?

Now almost half the run shows up after January 1 and its snowing....don't think that happened before...show me the numbers,

No comments on the inability of the Tower to provide 100% from the lower discharge....just wondering what happens in a disaster when full flow is required and the tower is at its max say 9000cfs and the lower is limited??
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