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What would you vote for?

The Only Gillnet thread - Part III

526K views 3K replies 340 participants last post by  CKthumper 
#1 Ā·
You can review review Part II Here.

This thread is reopened with strict guidelines. AUP violations will be enforced. Disrespectful and personal attacks will be removed without notice. This topic has placed inordinate stress on your moderators, which is why we've taken a break from this topic. Please be nice to each other and to your hosts. If your intent is to challenge someone or deprecate someone's opinion, please do us all a favor and don't post. Make sense?

Landings link;

Columbia River Compact(CRC) site for opening dates, see Joint State Action Notices;


The prior thread had reached nearly 4500 posts and was putting a strain on the servers. It also put a strain on the moderators. Please be thoughtful and respectful with your posts.All gillnet posts and threads will be moved to this thread.

http://www.ifish.net/board/showthread.php?t=285549
 
#272 Ā·
All users (including non-fishers such as Ag and hydro) have an impact. All impacts are figured in and accounted for by the DFW's. They have some pretty complicated formulas that spit out those numbers. If you have any concerns about it then you may wish to contact one of them.
 
#275 Ā·
Sports have the same impact or even a greater impact than commercials. Commercials don't have a catch and release season for Sturgeon. We use our nets for research to tag the sturgeon. If the states thought nets kill the sturgeon you think they would use nets? A catch and release season for sports is one of the first things that needs to be stopped. Also all sports or at least guide boats should be required to have on board a recovery box. And use it! Why shut down a user group that generates millions of dollars into the economy when the real problems are the predators! Birds kill almost half of the smolts every year!
 
#280 Ā·
Sports have the same impact or even a greater impact than commercials. Commercials don't have a catch and release season for Sturgeon. We use our nets for research to tag the sturgeon. If the states thought nets kill the sturgeon you think they would use nets? A catch and release season for sports is one of the first things that needs to be stopped. Also all sports or at least guide boats should be required to have on board a recovery box. And use it! Why shut down a user group that generates millions of dollars into the economy when the real problems are the predators! Birds kill almost half of the smolts every year!
I knew there would be something we agreed on. Targeting a species to be caught and released amounts to nothing more than fatal harassment. Some fish will be caught unintentionally while fishing for other species, but intentional targeting should be stopped.

I'm fine with guide boats needing to include their catch in the commercial allotment, but don't see the need for a recovery box. Guide boats catch fish by hook which can be released without leaving the water. That's much different treatment than a fish gets stuck in a gillnet.
 
#283 Ā·
Time to stop the fight to death BS. There are plenty of catch and release waters including some fish for pay and they dont have a big dead loss issue that i know of. Just saw a special on a lake in southern Oregon for catching trout and those fish gets caught over and over again. Yes Im sure some do die....yes bird do eat alot....yes sea lions do eat alot(hey theres a forum for that also. This thread is for gill nets and what people think of them. Lets STOP changing the subject deflecting it on to sporties and other factors. Hey Ive got an idea....start a thread about sporties and what you think of them.
 
#287 Ā·
I'm having a hard time understanding the logic behind this CCA seine net proposal. The federal government sets the impacts for the amount of wild fish that can be killed, that number gets divided up between the tribes, sport fisherman and gillneters right? If the gillnetters switch to seines, wont they still be killing the same amount of wild fish with their seines? There is no way that a seine net wont have some kind of mortality rate associated with it. So what is the point? A seine net is not really more selective than a gillnet.. or a hook for that matter. It catches both "wild" and hatchery fish and will have a release mortality rate assigned to it..even fish caught with a hook and line have a release mortality rate assigned to them. I'm not getting this.
 
#288 Ā·
First, the initiative to ban the use of gillnets in the CR is not a "CCA seine net proposal". Besides prohibiting gillnets and preventing any decrease in current allocations, the measure permits the use of selective, live capture gear. The two DFW have been testing modified seining for several years and the results have been very good, with immediate mortalities at a small fraction of the rate attributed to gillnets. Bycatch steelhead and sturgeon can easily be released unharmed. So "yes" a seine used in this modified fashion (live release of bycatch before hauling) is FAR more selective and safe than a gillnet. And that is the point.
 
#312 Ā·
QUOTE=Lead Bouncer;4105506]Imagine?

What, that NOAA would allow such a ridiculous scenario to take place at all?

Are you a gillnetter?[/QUOTE]

gillnet or seine i will do either one i spent too long at this to stop now would rather gillnet. But if it comes to seines we will still b on the river. And the way i see it will b less hatchery fish 4 the sports 2 catch! I have spent lifetime on CR gillneting on the CR i have made a lot of changes already!
 
#315 Ā·
The netters fished the mainstem this spring for a total of 18 hrs over 2 days. They fished using their small meshed "tangle nets" and were required to have a "recovery box" on board every boat. The mortality rate for this fishery is set at about 14%..which means that 14% of the fish that are caught and then released die. At 14%, two days is all it took for them to reach the allowed impact level. How long will it take for the netters to reach their allowed impacts using seine nets?
 
#317 Ā·
The netters fished the mainstem this spring for a total of 18 hrs over 2 days. They fished using their small meshed "tangle nets" and were required to have a "recovery box" on board every boat. The mortality rate for this fishery is set at about 14%..which means that 14% of the fish that are caught and then released die. At 14%, two days is all it took for them to reach the allowed impact level. How long will it take for the netters to reach their allowed impacts using seine nets?
Ask Bill..... But then he does not know what the impact percentage will be. Do you? The initiative locks in the allocation, yet you want to peddle this two year old idea? Lets say for grins and giggles that the tribes switch gear too. Immediate impact rates plummet to less than 1% for all commercial fishing. Still think they will drop sportfishing and lose more jobs and more income to the state? Think your allocation with the tribes will change if they keep their gillnets? Who knows...
 
#320 Ā·
Your nets do damage at a rate between 14-40%. That is the official number regardless of what you may want others to believe.

Sports kill more strugeon than commercials because they are given more sturgeon by the DFW's. Got a problem with that take it up with them.

Sports kill more spring salmon on the mainstem CR, but for the entire year for all salmon species commercials again win out. Now factor in the SAFE zones and the commercial pie starts to sit well above the total sport harvest. Add in ocean fisheries and the sport slice is more of a sliver.

Use caution when throwing out false compliance rates, that can get you in trouble.
 
#322 Ā·
I really dont think that some of you are getting the concept of how allocation of "impacts" work.

Its doesnt matter what kind of net commercial fisherman use. In the end, the same number of esa listed fish will be killed, because the netters will still have their share of the impacts. Again, the impact allocation is set by the feds. There is zero benefit to switching to seines.

The CCA knows this, but still pushes ahead because it sounds good (like they are finally doing something!) and brings them some uninformed membership. I'm not sure who thought this seine net thing up..but there was good reason for banning seines years ago. They can be VERY effective at catching salmon. They are used to kill salmon all over Alaska, British Columbia and Washington. I have no doubt that if forced too, the netters on the Columbia will figure out how to catch large volumes. Is this what the CCA membership wants? If that mortality rate gets way down low, you will have seine boats out there fishing in front of you all year long. I dont know what the CCA is thinking, but this seine net proposal is does not look like the way to go at all.
 
#323 Ā·
Lets just say for example, that the mortality rate set for the "selective, live capture" seine net is 0%. That means it wouldnt kill any non-target or esa listed fish.

How much time would nets be on the water catching hatchery fish?

Answer: almost all the time.

How much better would sport fishing be with all that hatchery fish taken out of the river by seine nets right in front of you?

Answer: um..I dont think I like just being able to catch natives and then throw them back. That is not my idea of a good time, I like to catch fish and then bring it home and eat it.

What about the Buoy 10 fishery in the lower river, we would get to fish in front of the seine nets then? We do pretty good down there in the lower columbia.

Answer: well..actually alot of those fish caught in the buoy 10 fishery are headed for the Youngs Bay where they were raised by the netters in pens. Gillnetting will be banned in Youngs Bay..so those fish will immediatly stop being raised and they will no longer be available to you.

But the CCA says it will only be a few Seine boats. What about that?

Answer: What difference would the number of seine boats make if they are catching large volumes of the hatchery fish? How about seine boats fishing every day or every other day all spring long instead of nets being in the water 18 hrs this spring. I highly reccomend doing your own research before drinking the CCA cool-aid.
 
#331 Ā· (Edited)
Lets just say for example, that the mortality rate set for the "selective, live capture" seine net is 0%. That means it wouldnt kill any non-target or esa listed fish.

How much time would nets be on the water catching hatchery fish?

1. Answer: almost all the time.

How much better would sport fishing be with all that hatchery fish taken out of the river by seine nets right in front of you?

2. Answer: um..I dont think I like just being able to catch natives and then throw them back. That is not my idea of a good time, I like to catch fish and then bring it home and eat it.

What about the Buoy 10 fishery in the lower river, we would get to fish in front of the seine nets then? We do pretty good down there in the lower columbia.

3. Answer: well..actually alot of those fish caught in the buoy 10 fishery are headed for the Youngs Bay where they were raised by the netters in pens. Gillnetting will be banned in Youngs Bay..so those fish will immediatly stop being raised and they will no longer be available to you.

But the CCA says it will only be a few Seine boats. What about that?

4. Answer: What difference would the number of seine boats make if they are catching large volumes of the hatchery fish? How about seine boats fishing every day or every other day all spring long instead of nets being in the water 18 hrs this spring. I highly reccomend doing your own research before drinking the CCA cool-aid.
\

1. you did not read the initiative.
What requires the govt to keep exactly the same rules regarding allocation? Other rivers do not use the 2% impact equation. You act like you are owed for those ESA fish you do not kill. You will not be rewarded with the allocation of others for killing less wild fish. Govt could not get away with it They wont trade sportfishing community dollars for commercial harvest dollars, when clearly sport creates more revenue for the states.

2. you did not read the initiative. Lets say you have 0 impacts. State says anglers will fish up to their 2% and then allow the nets to fill the rest of their estimated quota in conjunction with the tribal sharing and buffer agreements. That way the up river folks get a season. What bible verse says commercial harvest will always go first?

Fact is, the summer crab season in Puget sound is done like that. Sports fish and the commercials get whats left over in the quota. They went to court twice and lost.

3. Buoy 10 is a hazardous fishery and only larger boats go there. As you guys say, a lot of fish scales hit the water, and more wild fish are impacted there, so just maybe the buoy 10 fishery might get reworked to let more fish thru to the safe areas where more small boats could access them safely. It would also cut down on wild impacts. If no nets are allowed in those areas, then the limits could be increased, dropping the sport impact total.

4. Seines were on the drawing board before CCA showed up in PNW. At every turn, the "experts" have been wrong about the "effective ability" for seines to catch fish in the lower river. They were also wrong about the impacts from seine nets. Some considered a drop to be possible but considered 10% impacts to be the norm. Only off by 90%. Whether the number of seiners be 10 or 100, they will still have to share the quota limits set before and updated during the season. With so few impacts, you could end up with a hard number of hatchery fish for a quota. Overharvest at your peril. Its your wallet.

Whats funny is that, IF you were going to catch all the fish, you would have taped off the mouths of anyone with a big mouth. Somehow more fish is a threat to you? You are so, so compassionate for those who seek to end your way of fishing. :flowered: not biting.... 6 posts in your camp and you are not a gillnetter?

BTW if you really understood the use of the koolaid term, you might not use it. KIDS were given the koolaid by syringe squirted into their mouths and murdered. It was not a mass suicide.
 
#325 Ā·
So show me where it says if the gillnets go in the BPA will stop planting those fish. It is still a commercial harvest in which would be taken away from not only the commercial guys but the sporties as well. Until you have the written proof what you guys are claiming is nothing more than scare tactics to get it to be the way you want it.
 
#336 Ā·
Here is an interesting article regarding the testing that is being done for the seine nets. Its older but still relevent.

http://www.oregonlive.com/environment/index.ssf/2010/10/tests_on_the_columbia_river_lo.html

Here are some important quotes from the article:


Protecting endangered species also means state and federal biologists are under increasing pressure to keep hatchery-raised salmon from mixing with wild fish when they return to tributaries spawn. That could mean cutting hatchery production -- last year 50 million juveniles were released in the lower Columbia. Or it could mean helping commercial and sports fisherman selectively catch more hatchery salmon before they reach tributaries. That works for fisherman and wild, endangered salmon.

"If they're able to make this work, they'll be able to catch more hatchery fish and stabilize their industry," says Eric Kinne, regional hatchery reform manager for WDFW.

"The key to the whole experiment is to determine the mortality rate," says John North, Columbia River fish manager for ODFW, because that impact on protected fish is what primarily determines fishing seasons for the entire river.
 
#337 Ā·
I have seen that before. Seems to be several variable factors that would push policy one way or the other. Yet, the Dept did not write the initiative. If they had an iron clad case, they should have been able to sell that to legislators. Like I said before, giving control of the harvest to commercial fisherman regardless of gear is unlikely. It remains to be seen, if the dept could overturn the fisheries on the cowlitz and lewis that have agreements for fish production. Expecting anglers to fish the Columbia and not fish the tributaries is not a practical solution. The very small communities along the rivers depend on the tourism going to and from the rivers. I dont have the state numbers in front of me, but I believe WA sells more fresh water licenses than saltwater. I have not been able to draw a line between the current status, new status and more fish for everyone in the end, but if each group catches more fish in the end, while saving wild fish, its a good outcome. I am not against commercial fishing. I dont like trading electricity for industry at any cost, and then socialize the costs of mitigation, like they tore up a potato patch.
 
#339 Ā·
That is a highly debatable statement SGR. If the assigned mortality rate is low enough then the commercial fleet may very well bump up against catch balancing guidelines before reaching ESA impacts. Even if it is a wash then all those esa steelhead are still winners. So in the end, YES, switching to seines will save some esa listed wild fish and that is an improvement.
 
#341 Ā·
The same ammount of wilds will still be killed. Salmon and steelhead. I'm not very happy about what I'm hearing about the CCA. There going to colleges to get kids to sign the petion to ban gillnet, telling the kids its good for the gillnetters. They didn't mention to them that it's going to put alot of people out of work! Only way cca is going to make this thing happen is to keep lieing to everyone like they are.
 
#342 Ā·
And the only way gillnetters will prevent it from becoming law is to spread misinformation to more people with their carefully selected pseudo-facts. I pointed that out months ago; it will come down to a vote for the most compelling TV ad campaign.

And getting college kids to sign a petition? Not all that tuff to get the signatures needed. They'll sign anything that sounds good.
 
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