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12 Ga VS 20 Ga for upland hunting

43K views 61 replies 29 participants last post by  nunyet 
#1 · (Edited)
I'm having a tough time deciding on a 20 over a 12 gauge for my next upland gun.
I can buy a 20 gauge that shaves a fair amount of weight off, but I'm just not sure of the disadvantages, if any, of the 20 over the 12.
The last thing I care about is recoil, so other than that, am I losing anything going with the 20 over the 12? This is strictly for upland hunting, chukars mostly. I want a really light gun, and the 20 gauge is a little lighter than the 12, which is a big plus.
I have a 12 ga for ducks, so this will be a dedicated chukar/upland gun. I'll only be shooting #6 high brass out of it, 3" shells.
So, as a dedicated upland gun, will I be missing anything by going 20 over the 12?
I'm a reasonable shot, but far from a pro. A proper fit is more critical than the gauge, but I'm really interested in a performance factor between the two gauges.
Can anyone give me a comparison of both if using high brass, 3'', #6's?
 
#35 ·
I was so happy when I got my 20ga. side by side for upland! Much lighter, easier to carry than the old 12ga workhorse 870.
I used a lot of on-sale (cheap) 2 3/4" in size 71/2 or 6's and 4's.
One vest pocket with the smaller shot, other pocket of 4's.
If I was Hun/chukar hunting and coming up on my dogs point, I would have small shot in the gun and a pair of the larger shot in my off-hand.
 
#36 ·
Without writing a huge ballastics post about pattern density,shot energy, penetration, choke, pattern boards etc........
In simple terms your 20 gauge is giving up nothing on the upland field to a 12 gauge. Actually if you patterned your soon to be new 20 gauge shotgun you might find that a 7/8oz or 1oz load of #6 looks alot better on paper then a 3" 1 1/4oz #6 magnum high brass load. Generally speaking the more "square" the load is the better it patterns. I have found 1oz of #6 shot to be deadly coming out of a modified choke this year.
And you can forget about 40 + yd shots at chukars for the most part anyways.....if they are moving and 40yds out your chances of hitting them are relatively slim......unless maybe your Dogzilla,
If you feel the need to go looong range then slap #5 and a full choke and give that a whirl....
 
#38 ·
The 20 without question is inferior to the 12 ballistically.

Remingtons posted velocity for 1 1/4 OZ in the 12 is around 1450. The fastest 20 load they list is around 1200.

According to Hogdons info, the best you can do as a handloader is a 200 FPS difference

The 1 1/4 oz load in the 12 is more square than in a 3" 20.

The 12 ga pellets arrive at 60 yards with a bit more than 10% more energy. Not huge, but it is better than the 20.

If someone can show me a 1450 FPS 1 1/4 oz 20 load I would love to see it.


As to never a good reason to use larger than 6?? Well I certainly wont change your mind , but a #5 pellet has about 50% more energy at 60 yards than the #6 at all velocities between 1135 and 1330.

#6 shot puts .39 pellets per sq in in a 30 inch circle. #5 about .30 per square in. In a chukar sized target the #6 will put about 9 pellets in a bird and #5 about 7, but the #5 shot delievers about 10% more total energy. And again , each individual pellet has about 50% more energy.This is strictly a two dimensional calculation. But most of our chukar shots are going away at low angles which eliminates "stringing " issues. On hard crossers, there is still plenty of density to do the job. Put the pattern on the bird and its dead.

Dogzilla,
I did some rough calculations on your 1535 FPS load,I had to use 7.5 shot cause thats the data I had, but your load is losing about 60%(likely more) of its velocity at 60 yards and has roughly 1 ft pound of energy. My 20 ga #5 loads have about 2.3 times the energy and Im only starting them out at about 1250FPS. I know your load is going to be recoil intensive. Seems like a lot of abuse for so little return downrange.

The ballistic data shows that the 20 can be very effective, just not equally effective as a 12.

To paraphrase the lyman reloading manual, their ballsitic data clearly shows that increasing pellet size is preferable to increasing velocity for downrange performance.
 
#40 ·
If someone can show me a 1450 FPS 1 1/4 oz 20 load I would love to see it.
.
I don't understand something: there is absolutely no reason you can't obtain the same velocity with a 20 as with a 12. The only difference is payload.

If you've got a load for a 12 that lobs 1.25oz @1450fps then I'd guess you'd do the same velocity with 7/8oz from the 20.

My point is your statement about "ballistic superiority" is a little misleading. A #6 pellet, launched at the same velocity from either a 12 or a 20 goes exactly the same distance.

The only thing limiting the velocities with the 20 is the effort to work up the loads.
 
#52 ·
I don't understand something: there is absolutely no reason you can't obtain the same velocity with a 20 as with a 12. The only difference is payload.

If you've got a load for a 12 that lobs 1.25oz @1450fps then I'd guess you'd do the same velocity with 7/8oz from the 20.

My point is your statement about "ballistic superiority" is a little misleading. A #6 pellet, launched at the same velocity from either a 12 or a 20 goes exactly the same distance.

The only thing limiting the velocities with the 20 is the effort to work up the loads.
It is not just velocity it is "Pattern Density" "Pellet count" and "Payload" The 20 ga. although an excellent bore is not equal to the 12.:)
 
#39 ·
Realistically you guy's talking about 40+ yd shots at chukars, wow. Might be with flushing dogs or if birds aren't holding for pointing dogs but what do you do when the birds are getting up at ten or fifteen yds with a 1 1/4 oz load of anything? Shooting at 40+ yds, what choke you using? I'd have a tuff time at 40+ yds even with a full choke. 1 1/4 oz load from a full choke at twenty yards could be awfully hard on the bird! When I shot a 12 for birds, I used 1 1/8 oz of #6 shot at about 1200 fps, mod/full choke. With my 16ga I shot 1 oz #6 shot at about 1200 fps, mod/full. With my 28ga I shoot 3/4 oz shot at about 1200 fps, mod/full. I did shoot a 20 ga a bit but don't recall the load. The 20ga came with a full choke and I had it bored out to imp cyclinder.

If we go back to the 12ga 1 1/4 oz load, from a full choke it's pretty hard on the birds, from an imp cyclinder, much better. Then if it's 6 shot, that helps keep the shot count down so a bird doesn't get splattered on a closer shot. Each guage can be very usefull. How well they do depends on choke and shot size. At upland normal ranges I doubt velocity really comes into play much. 1200 fps cover's even 60 yds awfull quick. 1200 fps is something like 400 yds per sec!
 
#41 ·
Yup, you are going to shoot a lighter load of shot at the same velocity. I shoot an Ithaca mdl 37 20 for upland birds, most of the time. Public areas and no dogs, I shoot the Rem 1100 12 ga. But is so nice to be not beat up at the end of the day from big recoil and heavy carry weight. the 37 is a pump gun, so if you only like auto's look elsewhere. Plus the 37 ejects straight down, so either a righty or lefty can shoot the weapon. Just do not hunt that much anymore.
 
#42 ·
If you're only considering what is more lethal between the a 12 and 20 the answer is, the 12 ga. I'm sure someone can bring shot column height, pellet deformation, etc into the discussion to "clarify".

I like my 20 and 28 for a few reasons. They're light, although at the end of the day I don't think 6-10 oz really matters. They don't obliterate quail, ruffed grouse, or preserve birds at close range. Plus, I like shotguns and it would be boring to have a bunch of 12's in the safe.

Most people that miss with a shotgun assume they need a larger shot, more payload or a tighter choke when what they really need to do is center the bird in the shot pattern.

I think you "need" a 20. I will warn you, though. I started out like you with a 12, then a 20 and then got into the doubles.......it's addicting.

Happy Holidays,

James
 
#43 ·
I have packed several shotguns, and at the end of a long day climbing rims. I kill more birds with a light gun, than a high pellet count gun. Fatigue from the couple extra pounds of gun and extra shell weight, is what makes my shooting worse. Yes a 12ga has better energy and pellet counts. Makes no difference if your to fatigued to put the pattern on the birds.
 
#48 ·
Well, I've tried 20's before. My wife has a CZ canvasback in 20...although she doesn't like it when I try to take it hunting since it comes back banged up...plus the gun doesn't fit me very well and I shoot it poorly. Fits her like a glove though, so it's staying with her and I'm looking for an xmas present to myself!
I like every aspect of the 20, I was just debating if I was really giving up too much of an advantage by going with it over the old 12 gauge wingmaster....
It's not like I'm the greatest shot in the world, but I think at my effective ranges I wouldn't lose anything with the 20....
 
#49 ·
Llama: Yea, that small shot doesn't hold it's velocity/energy very well but my major concern was pattern density. I don't think my pattern density is that good at 1535 fps but want to check before reducing speed. I'm not into taking 60 yard shots at chukars but if I spent a lot of time doing load and pattern testing with larger shot, maybe I could. I agree that 6's lack penetration. Combine that with lower pattern density, is one reason I don't shoot them at chukars or pheasants. I'd shoot them in my 28 simply because at the range the 28 is effective, they still retain enough velocity. I probably wouldn't use the 6's unless I ran out of 5's.

Don: I wish I could get chukars to hold till I got within 15 yards. On days I can get reasonably close, I can get a limit with nine or ten shots but those days aren't very common. Usually have to knock down two birds with one shot a time or two for those numbers. I really haven't had a problem with exploding birds due to short range shooting except with pheasants. They'll hold till you're right on top of them or flush at 40 yards. Tought to have a load/choke combination to cover every situation. I miss a lot of those close flushes trying to make head shots and shooting a couple of inches too far ahead. The second shot can ruin a lot of meat if the bird is under 35 yards and the choke is too tight.

Recoil: I'm not bothered by the stuff but those fast loads do pack a punch. I think they probably kick a whole lot less (felt recoil) than a featherweight 20 shooting three inch ammo. Those things gotta be punishing in a pump gun or O/U. You might guess I want nothing to do with super light firearms and you'd be right.
 
#56 ·
DLA,

The reason you cant get the velocity out of the 20 or any of the other smaller bores is the capacity of the case and pressure.

If we compare apples to apples, 1 1/4 oz loads out of each gauge. It requires the same amount of energy to push each load to the same velocity. I havent done the math but its pretty clear the 12 gauge with its larger diameter has more surface area at the base of the wad than the 20.
So if we load each shell so they have the same pressure the 12 ga load receives more PSI per square inch than the 20, so the 12 ga load gets more total pressure applied which pushes it faster than the 20 ga. Your thought is that I can merely increase the pressure until I get the same velocity as the 12. The problem is there is a limit to the amount of pressure the gun can handle without distruction. That limit is reached before the 20 can produce a velocity the same as the 12 ga.

I think if you refer to my previous post I stated that neither Remington loads or Hogdon reloading list a 20 gauge load thats any closer than about 200 fps second of the 12 in an equal load. Im no tcertain, but Im betting that if theyr cant get a 20 ga to match the performance of a 12, I wont be able to either!

So yes a $6 pellet fireed out of a 12 and 20 at the same speed have the same range and energy. But you cant fire that pellet out of a 20 as fast as a 12.

Dla, I get the the nail analogy. But It is not really relevant. I dont have the option of switching to a smaller gauge depending on each situation.(Please tell me you dont have a "gun bearer"!) So it seems to me if I can only have one hammer in the shop I should pick one that can do the greatest variety jobs. If I have to drive a 16P through a big ole knot, that finish hammers a bit useless. But since I only have one hammer, I can drive a finish nail with framing hammer, just have to be careful.
I could have easily killed a lot of chukars over the years with a 410. And I hunt with retrievers (not that it matters what the dog is but thats anothe thread) but I have killed a lot more with the 20 and Im certain would have a few more with the 12.


What I cant do is kill them consistently at greater ranges with the 410.

BuT I will rephrase my statement. The 12 ga is superior to all the smaller gauges when it comes to delievering the highest amd equal amount of energy to the greatest distance.

Now, as to the range of birds. I ve shot a fair number of chukars that get up at my feet. I just give em a bit to get out there aways. Doesnt matter what gun you use, shoot em close they can get shreaded. Because theres always plenty of energy at the shorter ranges. Secondly, the first bird may be a 15 yards or maybe 25 in Dogzillas case, but where are they when the first shot goes off? the second? the third?

I ve learned quite a bit doing this the week or so. Im far less concerned about FPS now as there is a diminishing return. A point where you cant push it any faster an see any siginificant results downrange, increasing pellet size then becomes necessary. But then pellet count drops,OK then we will get a 3" or 3.5" shell, but now the guns heavier,recoils heavier..
 
#57 ·
I'm shooting a 7/8oz 1490fps 3" 20ga load in ITX #4. So velocity is not an issue in the 20ga with modern reloading components. The 7/8oz 2 3/4" 20ga load is 1350fps. So pellet energy is not a problem. tight patterns are not a problem with the 20ga. pellet counts are the only thing a 12ga shell improves over the 20ga. I can load a 3" 1 1/8oz lead #5 load at 1250fps and get it to pattern great. Not a very good close range chukar load but pheasants it will work.
 
#58 ·
The drink of choice for .12 gauge upland shooters.



Totally tounge in cheek! There are some fine .12 ga upland models available on the market.

Merry Christmas guys!!!:D





p.s. .20's rule!
 
#60 ·
It sounds like you have made up your mind, but I wanted to add some comments as well.

If you want to cover ALL of your basis with a light gun, go with the 12 gauge Benelli Ultralight. This way you can shoot all upland game and some waterfowl if necessary with the same gun regardless of conditions. I do not see much use for loads greater than 1 3/8 oz for later season pheasants. If you limitted me to 1 1/4 ounce of shot I would have no complaints.

A 20 will do everything a 12 will do if we keep apples to apples (velocity, payload, choke). The argument that a 12 is more powerful is just wrong unless you mean it is more capable because it can handle larger loads. Same thing can be said for a 10 gauge.

Velocity is way overated at most upland distances. Shoot some loads at 1145fps and you won't notice a difference. I killed a lot of pheasants with a 1 1/16 oz english load of #5 (like US #5.5) at various ranges.

Lastly, I shoot 20 for chukar and Huns and they do great. One ounce of #7 followed by #6 is outstanding.

If you want to try a bone crushing load, try to load a 7/8 oz load in #7 in 12 gauge. This loads tends to get there all at once with little shot stringing. A 3 inch 20 gauge loads strings pretty far and I haven't found a good reason for that load yet.

Happy hunting and Merry Christmas.

DH:excited:
 
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