ifish takes pro-active role

[wak'm&stak'm]

I have a suggestion and would like some feed back.

Though we all come from differant walks of life, we seem to share the same interest. Which I believe is the love of fishing and the health of our fish stocks. I probably more than most am very critical at times of ODFW practices, but at the same time I do support their efforts in areas I feel are worthwhile. Such as netting fall chinooks for egg collection, stream improvement projects, tagging projects and so on. There are many other projects as well like fin clipping fish, stream counts, spawning assistance, to even shoveling mud from ponds. As a good example GP, ODFW, and some local friends worked together to develope the Palmer crk steelhead run on the Siletz which now accoutnts for almost all the finclipped fish caught.

Now back to my thought, I am not sure of just how many members there are in the so called ifish family and how many more there are that read but don't write, but I would venture to say it is a lot. If we could be a support group for the ODFW on fish on restoration projects I think it would benifit everyone, including the fish. Also ifsh will have a better standing with the department and when it comes to discussions of quotas, seasons or what ever it will carry more wieght because of the improved relationship.

I also think it would not require a big effort on any idividual. If there was a folder that the ODFW could use to post up coming projects and a sign up for members is all it would take. Of coarse it would take a buy in from the ODFW, the commitment from us to show up and so on. The man I have worked with down here just calls around but has a hard time finding people at times.
As for myself I like to catch fish and eat fish, and also willing to put 10 fold back for all I take from the resource.
Is it possible?

[Bait O' Eggs]

Dan
I like your idea. Several other fishing organizations do pro-active work in the Northwest area. The draw back is if somebody signs up then doesnt show up. It becomes all talk and no action (kind of like the dawgs ).
It shouldnt be to hard to get on somebodies list of projects if they see free labor. I know the Whiskey Creek fish hatchery is all donated labor and account for a lot of fish in the Tillamook area.
If the ODFW was notified of the intention I am sure they could help get it organized. We just need a leader for our group to get the ball rolling. Any volunteers who have lots of time to run the program for us. I would like to see Jens take on this, it is her site. All decisions need approved by the boss. Jen?

[wak'm&stak'm]

You are right we say we will be there, then we should be true to our word. Or it will reflect on us all. I used to take my son on work days as well and he fun and learned a lot.
Well we will so in short order if anyone cares this much. Oh ya did you get my reply letter Roy? Still slow fishing this week.

[Phish_on]

Sounds great. I would love to see volunteer opportunities listed here.

[Clamman]

Every region headquarter office for the ODFW has a volunteer coordinator or a person who can point you to one. All one needs to do is call the nearest region, ask for the volunteer coordinator and tell them where you live and how you would like to help. Nearly every project, at times, can use an extra pair of hands or a strong back. The public is needed in the overall recovery of the salmon. Call your local region headquarters to help.

Northwest Region= (503)657-2000
Southwest Region= (541)440-3353
High Desert Region= (541)388-6363
Northeast Region= (541)963-2138
Marine Region= (541)867-4741

ISG

[This message has been edited by Ifish Special Guest (edited 10-05-2000).]

[SSPey]

With all do respect, hatchery supplementation of steelhead on the Siletz is probably a BAD thing for fish stocks. That's why ODFW is now trying to let only natives into the upper river, and is also why they've closed fishing up there. This notion that man can step in and "reinforce" stocks is so flawed as to jeopardize the wild fish that we have left. Haven't we learned anything in the past 50+ years of anadromous fish mis-management? The Fall Creek coho crisis is a fine example of how introducing hatchery fish (even those descendent from the local run) can lead to a decline in TOTAL fish numbers because the hatchery fish survive poorly, and reduce survival of the true natives at the same time. Want to read more? Go to the ODFW page and download the report on Fall Creek coho.

Now, if GP was truly interested in preserving fish in the Siletz basin, then they wouldn't have clear cut right up to the North Fork's banks. They took advantage of a loophole in the Oregon riparian law to do the WRONG thing, but have their (misguided) hatchery efforts to flaunt in the public's face as evidence of how much they care. What a scam - they're killing the basis of any healthy fishery - the natives - with two punches (1) clearcutting riparian forest and (2) introducing stocked fish which screw up returns of natives.

REAL Restoration is another story. Restore riparian habitat, restore in-stream habitat, restore river flows where dams have altered them. Increasing the efficiency of hatchery operations or adding to existing runs is NOT restoration. THe only case where hatcheries can be justified is where natives have already been 100% decimated, like in the Elwha, where there is no other choice than using hatcheries.

I support efforts at restoration - true restoration - but don't be mislead as others before you into thinking that hatcheries or stocked fish are the answer. They are, in fact, the problem. Think twice - ODFW's job is pumping out fish to generate licence (and hence salary) revenue.

[Salmonator]

First, I can't say any thing about GP's clear cutting practices because I haven't seen it. Second, how much do you actually know about GP's hatchery practices?? The winter broodstock steelhead that have been coming back to the Siletz for the last few years are the biggest most beautiful winter steehead i've ever seen. And gee, it's kinda funny how they fight just like a native. And if they spawn in the river??? Who gives a rip?!! In my opinion every hatchery dollar should go to implementing this program into every river in the state...

[Salmonator]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but I believe they are trying to keep the hatchery summers out of the upper river because they are not a native run and they compete with the upriver native winters for spawning habitat. I'm not sure if they are turning back the palmer creek fish or not.

[SSPey]

ODFW are trying to keep both hatchery summers and all winters out of the upper river. Winter fish weren't able to ascend the upper river because flows over the falls were too turbulent and difficult to pass in winter (according to ODFW office). Summer fish can pass these falls at summer flows.

By putting the fish ladder there to pass the falls, the winters and hatchery summers were able to access upper river habitat traditionally accessible to only native summer-runs. This put too much pressure on the native summers for limited habitat, and also caused summer-run redds to be destroyed by winter redds, since winter fish spawn slightly later.

Oh yeah, who gives a rip if winter fish spawn in the river? YOU should, because winters spawn on top of summer-run redds (limited habitat) which leads to a decline in summer fish. These winter fish also survive poorly, since they lack behavior and savvy of wild fish.

GP locked the road to the NF Siletz and did quite a number on the forest. Expect a muddy winter on the Siletz!

[Salmonator]

I just read some ODFW info. Floatnfish you are correct about the upper river. The Siletz has the only native summer run steelhead on the coast and that's why it's the only steelhead now allowed to pass the falls. But back to my point. Who cares if a native broodstock winter spawns in the river below the falls. These fish have every bit of savvy and survivablity that a non-hatchery native has. I believe they are the product of two wild fish (pretty sure the wilson fish are mated with one broodstock and one wild fish). With the exception of being reared in a pond for a few months they are released as smolts and spend their life the same way a gravel spawned nate will.

[wak'm&stak'm]

The surplus fish from the Siletz are put in Olalla lake for the local kids to snag.
I am not all that impressed with GP's PR work. I don't like closed gates and I wouldn't mind cutting a load of firewood without going to prison. But all timber harvest is subject to buffer strips and what I see is they are doing it. I believe we should harvest trees and replant, just I think we should catch fish and replant. THose that think Oregon should be a big park and be restored like man has never been here are living a dream.
Man has made his mark, be it good or bad and I think we should just be smart on the stocks we raise. I also believe the biologists that say they can see no genetic differance. If this is true I would be real impressed if you laid a so called native by a hatchery fish with all its fins and someone could tell the differance.
I loved fish the 70's and they were mostly hatchery fish.
Back to the original thought are there enough to warrent a work group?

[wak'm&stak'm]

Ifsh special guest.....I want to thank you for the information and I will call on this years projects. I gather you must work for the ODFW or are close to them. If you do work for they I would be interested if those in the dept. log on to ifish and listen to all of us **** and moan about everything, and if so what impression do they get.
I believe that this board of all have very inteligent members and are willing to look at both sides of an issue. No doubt that there are those of us that are quite opinonated on some subjects, but still want to learn more.
Thanks,

[SSPey]

I post here a summary of a scientific paper from the ODFW webpage which documents how hatchery smolts can affect survival of native smolts. I post this here as a reason how hatchery winter fish could harm native summers. It is very likely that native summer smolts get pushed downstream during winter storm flows, and this would put them into direct competition with hatchery or "broodstock" fish in the lower river (let's not let the word "broodstock" obscure the fact that these fish are raised in tanks, as Salmonator noted, and so are a hatchery product)

summary follows below

Phelps, S.R. 1998. Parental composition of naturally-produced steelhead smolts from the Clackamas River, Oregon. Paper submitted on contract to Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife. Portland, Oregon.

This paper provided evidence that hatchery winter and summer steelhead were producing smolts in the Clackamas basin, without producing returning adults. The results demonstrate poor reproductive success of hatchery steelhead. While the hatchery fish produced smolts, the smolts did not survive to adults. The study also demonstrated ecological displacement of wild winter steelhead by the offspring of the hatchery steelhead. Non-viable offspring of hatchery fish occupied up to 2/3 of the steelhead carrying capacity of the basin when hatchery steelhead adults were allowed to spawn naturally.

[garyk]

Floatnfish -- Thanks for the great detailed post(s).

The scenario you cite is one of the reasons the logging companies are big supporters of restoration and hatcheries. Their position is - "Hey, it doesn't matter if we **** this valley, we'll just do a 'restoration' project later, garner the good PR and greenwash our image. Now lets get down there and lobby against those riparian protection rules".

The key to preserving our fisheries lies in not allowing those remaining waters in good condition from being ruined in the first place. "Restoration" if even feasible is a poor, expensive option. Ever see a truly silted-in stream really restored?

Solve the problem by not allowing it to become a problem. (Yes, I do acknowledge that in degraded areas restoration is the only choice but I'm advocating for no further damage). Strengthening Oregon's Forest Practices Act, AND funding the Ore. Dept. of Forestry to enforce the act, is a good place to start.

Advocating against damage is far more effective than trying to fix it after the fact.

BTW, The latest Salmon-Trout-Steelheader Magazine has a great article by Trey Kascarden (sp?), of NW Sport Fishing Industry Assoc. (NWSIA) about sport fisherman not speaking out and needing to. Also an article by the Chair (I believe) of the Northwest Power Planning Council with comments about sportsfishers lack of involvement in the political process.

[Salmonator]

So floatnfish what you are trying to say is that if you take native fry and put them in a pen for a few months they are no better than your everyday runofthemill Alsea hatchery stock?? That is absolutely false. These smolts are returning and in great numbers due to the fact that they have the survival genes of their pure native (I use the term pure loosely) mom and dad. The bulk of this run returns in Feb and March (like a nate). I wish I had the numbers for the Coquille program but I remember that they were getting double the returning fish that the statewide average was.
Maybe they should curtail the broodstock smolt release until the summer nates have rebounded to good numbers. But i'm sure that somewhere back in the old days the river was packed with summer AND winter native smolts naturally competing for food. I'm assuming that Clackamas study was comparing hatchery stock that was inbred year after year after year ect.
I'm not saying that I don't care about the survival of the Siletz summer nates, but i've fished this broodstock program since it started and it has me pretty excited... Sal

[wak'm&stak'm]

I truly agree with Salmonator, I have fished the Siletz for the past 25 years and there are just as many summers as ever. In Aug. I can show you holes in the North fork where you can't see the bottom because of the fish.
I have a hard time believing you can be so negitive to helping the ODFW yet quote them as a source of support. You wear me out, if you don't want to help just say so, but don't run others in the ground by accusing someones good hearted efforts for declining fish counts.
I do believe they need to go about things smart and learn from past mistakes, and they are doing just that.

[wak'm&stak'm]

I thought this may have got more responce , but OH WELL! That is fine, more people seem to be interested in how to legally line fish.
For those of you who take a pro active role and keep an open mind, keep it up and good for you. You are what the world should be full of it would be a better place.
As for the rest that are so into themselve I hope the best for you as well. But you wear me out and have turned the simple pleasure of fishing into a political nightmare. I have come to have a new understanding of the ODFW plight when the public is concerned. SO I will no longer spend hours becoming a web head argueing on this board or even posting and will have Jennie remove my log on. I am going to get out there and support those who are truly doing something for the fish.
Hey floatnfish I am going to put in a hatch box just for you, on the Siletz.
BYE BYE BYE BYE........xx00xoxox....:0

[Mike H]

Now I wasn't around when the first hatcheries were started but I bet people were pretty excited about the program. And who could blame them...there were more fish to catch! For awhile they produced very good retunrs of these hatchery fish and everyone thought things were hunky-dory.

Look at us now. We're shutting down hatcheries because of the harm they cause on wild fish populations. Hatcheries don't looks so great anymore.

My point: This broodstock program is very young still. I don't think we should get caught up in this program and try start on every river system. I personally think they're better than the traditional hatcheries but they don't compare to wild populations.

Salmonator - I understand you're excited with the Siletz broodstock program but don't you think we have something to be a little more excited about in the Siletz Basin? Native summer steelhead! The only ones on the coast. Personally, I'd do anything to help their populations rebound, even if it meant cutting back the Palmer Creek broodstock program. We both know there are plenty of other winter steelhead around.

Funny that we're talking about the Siletz..... did anyone see the front page article in the Corvallis Gazette-Times on Tuesday? "Restoring the Siletz Gorge" Check it out!

Mike H

[SSPey]

It seems perhaps my posts were taken the wrong way, or that some statements were too strong (though none inaccurate, as far as I can tell). The ODFW biologists are certainly concerned with conserving native fish - and you can hear this when you talk to them as I have done. It is the ODFW higher ups who want to maintain hatchery programs and keep fish boxes full to maintain their budgets and licence revenue - these are the ODFW sorts who care less about the real fish - they are politicians, not biologists. We need less of them and more biology to guide decisions.

I've been to those pools you speak of on the N. Fork Siletz. They are few and far between, but they are there - anbd so are the fish. Last year something like 100 or less wild summer steelies returned on the Siletz. This is an issue of concern, such a low number. In my mind, this is not something to be messed with - we need to do whatever we can to preserve these fish, because if we don't, we've lost it all, including wild genes and a source of broodstock fish. These wild fish know how to deal, and studies in and out the wazoo have shown that non-wild fish lack important survival traits needed for long term species preservation.

Wak'm - While I did certainly express my opinion, I made no personal attacks on anyone's beliefs or anything, and only tried to provide what I see as useful and important information that needs to be in the pocket of one and all sportsmen (and women). We need to know the issues and the facts that surround them, and then base our decisions on these facts in addition to our desire to have full fish boxes. We should make sure to question what ODFW and similar authorities do, and make sure that these activities are truly in the interest of the fishery and not driven by political motivations. To this end, your participation in this and other forums is good for that, because we can all work together to make sure that the most sound and reasonable policies are the ones being enacted. Be informed, volunteer for species survival, and vote!!! I do my share of all of these and want to spread the word!

-5000

[wak'm&stak'm]

I think there count is screwed up, I was elk hunting up there a week ago and just from the truck could see 3 times that many. Any way I don't take anything personal, but have looked how much time I spend on my butt in this chair typing vs what I used to do, like gettin thing done.
I am glad you have the views you do, stick to them.
I think as a whole the ODFW has this to work thru and I hope the fish win as well.

[MoJet Driver]

Hey Wak',

Don't be so sensitive that this post didn't roll over with a hundred replies in a day. I have to sneak mine in when the boss isn't looking. I agree that there can be a lot done with a little volunteer time, same as those who grab a garbage bag once a year to help SOLVE. I'm for it, just quit picking weekends that I have to work :-)

One other thing in regards to catching fish legally, since this seems to be such a hot topic, how 'bout we find ways through law enforcement and legislation to turn up the bounty on turning in poachers. Not necessarily with monitary award but at least with arrests. Seems to me we get one good season and everyone (ifish people exempted) want to fill a freezer for the first time in 15 years.

[Jennie@ifish]

I am in the process of designing a sign with fishing regulations and a picture of a cutthroat to help anglers know not to kill them at a local fishing hole here.
I feel guilty that I didn't post to this message on the board. I do think it is an excellent idea, but I hardly have any time on the board anymore.
I was hurt by a letter written to me that they were tired of hearing in my column how sad I was about missing my dog, making spaghetti, etc...like I don't care about pro active issues.
I do care, although I feel a little uneducated when I listen and read all of these things. I am learning though, and I do have my feelings and education on some issues.
It is hard to write about fishing only, three or more days a week. The column is about my life, and it isn't required reading! It's easy enough to skip over, and I do it mainly for my peace of mind. Writing helps me sort things out.
Anyway.... I think the ifish group is great, and I think we could get some things accomplished.
I was rather dissapointed in the turn out of the ralley we had, and perhaps a little discouraged.
I am making my own efforts to change things. I am active in what I believe, and what I know how to do.
This site keeps me hopping. I thought that was one way I was helping???
Anyway.... I would like to help, I am here to do what I can, and I am very willing.
Jen

[PeterMac]

Jennie, you keep going just like you are. When I first read about this page in the newspaper, I wrote you and told you how great it was to be able to have connection to a part of my life that wasn't easy to get to physically (ie stuck at my desk, wanting to be on the North Fork). Reading your column took me there. Your efforts, and abilities to communicate, are the very things that got allot of us here in the first place.

Some people just don't get it!!

Don't be discouraged, there are always going to be bad apples. YOU GO GIRL.

[First Bite]

Jen if it wasn't for you and all your hard work, this site wouldn't exist. A lot of people have no idea what it takes to put up a site like this and maintain it the way you do. As for your stories on your main page. I personally enjoy reading them. Like you said, it's not required reading. So keep on writing and we'll keep on reading. Thanks again.
Mark

[Jennie@ifish]

Thanks guys, I appreciate it.
The thing is though, is that I do not have the talent or know how to be any kind of a political leader, but if anyone out there does, I can back you up with internet exposure!
I am not going to have a pity party tonight!
I just want everything to work out!
Wakm has some really good ideas. I just don't understand why he seems upset with me.
Anyway.... no matter, we do have the power of some numbers here that CAN make a difference. Anyone game?
J

[garyk]

Jen -- Thanks for your hard work in keeping this site going. You're doing the pulling, the rest of us here are just drafting.

As to your writing, keep it up. I enjoy your enthusiasm; don't lose it. And its a brave thing to do too - putting your thoughts and feelings out there.

So shrug off the criticisms, accept the compliments and keep on, keep'n on!

[Hammer Bob]

Jen, You are doing a great job keeping this site up and should pay no mind to those boy's such as wak'm&stak'm who want to take their ball and go home when things don't go the way they think they should. I think a very good thread was opened. It produced a very meaningful and knowledgable debate that is until wak'm&stak'm felt he had been slighted by the magnitude of response which he deemed less than he deserved. He just needs to realize that other people also have lives and don't live on the internet. Ideas put forth take time to ferment and develop....patience is a virtue! I also do not think that this board has an arguementative format but is in fact very constructive in the quality of the debates posted. If wak'm&stak'm wants his log-in deleted so be it...we will miss his input.

Jen, this site is one of the best fishing forums I have visited....thanks!!!

[This message has been edited by Hammer Bob (edited 10-06-2000).]

[Gone Fishin]

Jennie, Your love of fishing and its issues show clearly in your column. And personally, I'm happy you write about life in general rather than just one subject. Some of us enjoy hearing about your new kitten and what the boys are up to. Everyone that reads a newspaper usually turns to their favorite section first; it's like that on the internet with us, we "turn" to Ifish 'cause it's the best section. So keep up the good work Jen. ~Lee

[This message has been edited by Gone Fishin (edited 10-06-2000).]

I don't understand people who diss a quality person or a quality site that has a lot of valuable info and some entertainment FOR FREE. Especially when anyone can simply click only on subjects within this or other sites that interest them. Don't let such mentality put a kink in your day Jen. I have used a quote here on the BB before from a song that has been inspirational to me; Ricky Nelson's "Garden Party". Listen to the words when the opportunity arises; "... but it's alright now ... I've learned my lesson well ... you see, you can't please everyone so you've got to please yourself". ... Nobody can please everyone! Most people are tough self-critics. So, as with most of us, when you please yourself in your endeavors Jen you are likely to please a majority of people. And you do! Thanks. --- As for any member with the time to start up a fisheries help group that would be good! It will be a big challenge. As I learned when I tried to put together a meaningful rally for sportfishing rights, there is unfortunately a large % of people that say they will part-take for the cause but don't show. Just expect a small turnout for hands on projects so that you don't bite off more than the show up crew can handle. With that possibility understood, go for it! - RT

[This message has been edited by RT (edited 10-07-2000).]

[wak'm&stak'm]

I have have pleaded for forgivens for upsetting Jen, like it is any of your damn business.
She I am sure knows where I am coming from and yes maybe I am sensitive and yes maybe I have no patience ( this I know ). But I did have this hope that together with the ODFW and ifish we could have the biggest restoration effort ever put together. We have the common ground which is...healthy fish stocks.
I think something may still come of it but it will take some time, "TIME TIME HELL I WANT IT NOW" just kidding ...I will work on my patience. Don't eat me up over a couple of thoughtless sentences please. and floatman I am not a little boy.

[Jennie@ifish]

Welcome to the over sensitive Ifish group! I'm one! I know a couple others too!
Let's just hope we don't all have an over sensitive day all at once!
Jen