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Old 02-13-2011, 03:34 AM   #1
Bill Monroe
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Default Oregon moose hunts

http://www.oregonlive.com/sports/ore...treaty_tr.html

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Old 02-13-2011, 06:17 AM   #2
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Default Re: Oregon moose hunts

Sickening. No Moose for you tribal people. Give me a break!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 02-13-2011, 06:41 AM   #3
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Sickening, lets kill them before they get started!
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Old 02-13-2011, 06:46 AM   #4
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Default Re: Oregon moose hunts

Maybe there will be a tag or two for the rest of us someday.
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Old 02-13-2011, 06:53 AM   #5
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Default Re: Oregon moose hunts

Before we get too carried away I think discussing this problem with the tribes biologist and tribal elders is the best way to help the moose get established. If this doesn't work there is not much we can do as it's a treaty issue.
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Old 02-13-2011, 06:57 AM   #6
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Thumbs down Re: Oregon moose hunts

I'd heard a while back that a "native" has been shooting numerous bighorns and hauling unplugged heads into a taxidermist to get mounted.

This whole tribal hunting treaty needs to be revamped. It's not like they're hunting with a primitive yew or osage bow, shooting arrows made from dogwood or rivercane, and points knapped out of obsidian. Are they riding Appaloosa ponies into the mountains for their traditional hunts?

On another website I read where members of the Yakima tribe are shooting many of the largest bulls they can find on winter ranges(non tribal).

Sorry, but I'm not allowed to say what I really want to say.
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Old 02-13-2011, 07:05 AM   #7
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Default Re: Oregon moose hunts

I wonder if tribe members are allowed to take wolves? Hmmmmm.....

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Old 02-13-2011, 07:08 AM   #8
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Default Re: Oregon moose hunts

Heard you loud and clear Sliverpicker...and I agree.

As I understand because they are a sovereign nation on their land they can and do whatever they want to. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I heard.
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Old 02-13-2011, 07:16 AM   #9
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Default Re: Oregon moose hunts

HALF! Oh that's right. That's the fish. Sorry.
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Old 02-13-2011, 07:38 AM   #10
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Default Re: Oregon moose hunts

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Heard you loud and clear Sliverpicker...and I agree.

As I understand because they are a sovereign nation on their land they can and do whatever they want to. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I heard.

Yes, but are they on their land? I would fair to guess that they are not.
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Old 02-13-2011, 07:49 AM   #11
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Default Re: Oregon moose hunts

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........on their land .........they are not.
I'm not really familiar with this area but the Klamath tribe sold their reservation twice but they retained the right to harvest on a large part of SE Oregon, both res and non res land.
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Old 02-13-2011, 08:30 AM   #12
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Default Re: Oregon moose hunts

I can't believe anybody is really shocked at this, similiar instances have occured all over the state, and the country, AND...the one's you hear about.

Simple documentation can be manipulated nowdays in court when there is a never ending supply of funds to accomplish this. The interpetation of words are open in the legal system, and when "political correctness" has taken over common sense....well foolish things happen.

Doesn't take long to realize that "jumping on the bandwagon" early to exercise your rights is a slam dunk these days. It is the snowball effect....it will get alot bigger.
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Old 02-13-2011, 08:40 AM   #13
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Default Re: Oregon moose hunts

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Simple documentation can be manipulated nowdays in court when there is a never ending supply of funds to accomplish this. The interpetation of words are open in the legal system, and when "political correctness" has taken over common sense....well foolish things happen.
I don't want to be "on the other side" on this but most of the treaties are clear when it comes to harvesting. The AUP restricts me from posting what I feel about one group of citizens given special status over others.

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Old 02-13-2011, 08:50 AM   #14
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I don't want to be "on the other side" on this but most of the treaties are clear when it comes to harvesting. The AUP restricts me from posting what I feel about one group of citizens given special status over others.

.

Totally understand your statement, but have you actually read the treaty that was signed? That is where I state "manipulated", there is no clear %, until the seventy's and a judge decided that 50% was a "fair and equitable share".

I don't understand the thinking to F&W with some of the plantings they have made. In areas where open access to the public is restricted, but yet are fair game to be eliminated at will.

It is always smarter to let the tree grow and harvest the fruit for seasons to come instead of cutting the tree down for one season.
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Old 02-13-2011, 09:10 AM   #15
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Default Re: Oregon moose hunts

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....but have you actually read the treaty that was signed?
No, I'm more familiar with the Klamath treaty and Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act.
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Old 02-13-2011, 09:32 AM   #16
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Default Re: Oregon moose hunts

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Originally Posted by fishin' is livin' View Post
Totally understand your statement, but have you actually read the treaty that was signed? That is where I state "manipulated", there is no clear %, until the seventy's and a judge decided that 50% was a "fair and equitable share".

I don't understand the thinking to F&W with some of the plantings they have made. In areas where open access to the public is restricted, but yet are fair game to be eliminated at will.

It is always smarter to let the tree grow and harvest the fruit for seasons to come instead of cutting the tree down for one season.
Here is the actual treaty language for the Umatilla Treaty pertaining to hunting, fishing, and gathering. The language is similar in other Columbia River area treatys.

Provided, also, that the exclusive right of taking fish in the streams running through and bordering said reservation is hereby secured to said Indians, and at all other usual and accustomed stations in common with citizens of the United States, and of erecting suitable buildings for curing the same; the privilege of hunting, gathering roots and berries and pasturing their stock on unclaimed lands in common with citizens, is also secured to them.

Understand that the terms "in common with", "usual and accustomed" and "unclaimed lands" have meanings with have been repeatedly argued, and ultimately defined by the courts. They do not necessarily mean what one might think. For instance, "unclaimed lands" refers to lands in public ownership (USFS, BLM, state lands). "in common with" does not necessarily mean equal.

That said, I really wish the tribes would not allow their members to harvest moose. IMHO, leave them alone so they can get established.
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Old 02-13-2011, 10:09 AM   #17
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Default Re: Oregon moose hunts

Did anyone here on Ifish sign the treaty of 1855?
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Old 02-13-2011, 10:15 AM   #18
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Default Re: Oregon moose hunts

No, but representatives of our government at the time did. Unfortunately the treaties are law.

Dealing with the tribes on a friendly basis will get us more than attempting to restrict rights they feel are important. Get the tribal elders behind protecting moose in Oregon and we all benefit. Give them the impression they will loose rights and we all loose.
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Old 02-13-2011, 10:30 AM   #19
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Default Re: Oregon moose hunts

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No, but representatives of our government at the time did. Unfortunately the treaties are law.

Dealing with the tribes on a friendly basis will get us more than attempting to restrict rights they feel are important. Get the tribal elders behind protecting moose in Oregon and we all benefit. Give them the impression they will loose rights and we all loose.
I agree completely.

How about.....10 wolves eradicated for every 1 moose harvested? Sounds like a win-win to me
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Old 02-13-2011, 10:50 AM   #20
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Default Re: Oregon moose hunts

I've read "The Nez Perce Indians and the Opening of the Northwest" by Alvin M. Josephy, Jr. several times. It is an amazing book. It is complete, honest, and unabridged. Did the NP's and every other tribe up in that area get a raw deal from our ridiculous, arrogant, Christian white folks??? **** YES! Just like every indigenous civilization on the planet that was conquered rather than sensibly assimilated into the newly formed takeover society.

Do these native tribes need to be able to continue shooting Bighorn Sheep, Shiras Moose, and Elk up in the Wenaha/Umatilla? NO FREAKING WAY!

Yeah, we understand what a travesty it was when we white guys got here and unfairly started to foul things up in the native world 200 years ago. Although some unfortunate unfairness and discrimination lingers to this day, this kind of stuff makes my blood boil. WE ARE ALL PART OF A WHOLE NOW........the big game taking, tribal gillnetting and all the rest of that crap needs to be over! America has one citizenry and we all need to play by the same rules. We honor the native society....they need to honor themselves by joining this century. I'd like to know how their take of treasured big game animals outside the rules intended to govern all of us helps their cause. It doesn't. It doesn't serve them well at all. It's a wedge. (And yes, I do understand what a reservation is).

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Old 02-13-2011, 10:58 AM   #21
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Default Re: Oregon moose hunts

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Originally Posted by Teeb View Post
Here is the actual treaty language for the Umatilla Treaty pertaining to hunting, fishing, and gathering. The language is similar in other Columbia River area treatys.

Provided, also, that the exclusive right of taking fish in the streams running through and bordering said reservation is hereby secured to said Indians, and at all other usual and accustomed stations in common with citizens of the United States, and of erecting suitable buildings for curing the same; the privilege of hunting, gathering roots and berries and pasturing their stock on unclaimed lands in common with citizens, is also secured to them.

Understand that the terms "in common with", "usual and accustomed" and "unclaimed lands" have meanings with have been repeatedly argued, and ultimately defined by the courts. They do not necessarily mean what one might think. For instance, "unclaimed lands" refers to lands in public ownership (USFS, BLM, state lands). "in common with" does not necessarily mean equal.

That said, I really wish the tribes would not allow their members to harvest moose. IMHO, leave them alone so they can get established.
Exactly, and a judge in 1974 made the interpretation of these statments what he thought they should be. "Unclaimed" lands...they are claimed by the U.S., the hunting, fishing, gathering on the tribal lands...those are claimed lands by that tribe.

Moose that are being killed on BLM, or Forest Service lands are not on unclaimed land, it is a "intepretation" issue that needs to be looked at and obviously rectified.
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Old 02-13-2011, 02:29 PM   #22
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Default Re: Oregon moose hunts

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Originally Posted by blueduck View Post
I've read "The Nez Perce Indians and the Opening of the Northwest" by Alvin M. Josephy, Jr. several times. It is an amazing book. It is complete, honest, and unabridged. Did the NP's and every other tribe up in that area get a raw deal from our ridiculous, arrogant, Christian white folks??? **** YES! Just like every indigenous civilization on the planet that was conquered rather than sensibly assimilated into the newly formed takeover society.

Do these native tribes need to be able to continue shooting Bighorn Sheep, Shiras Moose, and Elk up in the Wenaha/Umatilla? NO FREAKING WAY!

Yeah, we understand what a travesty it was when we white guys got here and unfairly started to foul things up in the native world 200 years ago. Although some unfortunate unfairness and discrimination lingers to this day, this kind of stuff makes my blood boil. WE ARE ALL PART OF A WHOLE NOW........the big game taking, tribal gillnetting and all the rest of that crap needs to be over! America has one citizenry and we all need to play by the same rules. We honor the native society....they need to honor themselves by joining this century. I'd like to know how their take of treasured big game animals outside the rules intended to govern all of us helps their cause. It doesn't. It doesn't serve them well at all. It's a wedge. (And yes, I do understand what a reservation is).
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Old 02-13-2011, 03:38 PM   #23
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Default Re: Oregon moose hunts

I have no problem with them doing it if they hunt them with "traditional" weapons.

This is a joke.
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Old 02-13-2011, 03:45 PM   #24
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Sickening, lets kill them before they get started!
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