Proper care of tuna- the reasons why... - www.ifish.net
Leave no Dog Behind

Go Back   www.ifish.net > Ifish Fishing and Hunting > The Salty Dogs

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-20-2011, 04:23 PM   #1
Nalu
 
Nalu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Beverly Beach, OR
Posts: 6,132
Default Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

I didn't want to hijack the PC dory thread, but I felt Baxters response warranted discussion in itself regarding care of tuna, the reasons why, etc. No passing judgement, but simple physics, and why people should take care of tuna with ice at sea. It is NOT a luxury in my opinion. Yes, the fish come out better, but there are also definitive heath reasons to properly care for tuna (By proper care, I am referring to Agencies such as Sea Grant that publish recommended best practices)

With the OTC event being held in Newport this weekend, the timing is good to cover once again why we require each team to properly bleed and ice their fish. Not because we want pretty medallions, but because it is the proper way to handle tuna.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Baxter View Post
If you click on this link, the first picture you see is a boat circa 1946 with multiple holds full of albacore tuna, with no ice in sight. No particular need to reference history of course; take a trip tomorrow on a larger charter boat out of an Oregon port and, chances are, your tuna will not be iced.

It is very possible to harvest albacore without "10 pounds of ice per fish"--or any ice at all--and turn it into canned fish without losing any nutritive quality. The fetish with ice is a luxury of the modern era and the fat wallet. I carry plenty of ice myself because I like the loins to be firm and not mushy around the edges. Also, I like to make attractive medallions for the bbq and eat some fresh. But the fact is, if destined for the canner, ice makes precious little difference in edibility. People have taken and eaten fish of all types for eons without the use of ice.

Personally, I'm done making any value judgments about how many fish people take, how they publicize it, why they take them, or how they use them, in what for the time being is an unlimited fishery, according both to law and the plenitude of nature. And I assume that a guy who takes his share his own way will not judge those who do it differently, particularly those who fish using less resources in the form of frozen money.
There is no value judgement here, but the question I ask IS legitimate.

As far as commercial boats go, just so you might stow away the idea that I am unfamiliar with what takes place, I started my ocean fishing career aboard a Chris Craft dory that my father commercial salmon fished in the early 70's. We later moved to a 42 foot double ender that we commercial fished for salmon and tuna. It was our goal to maximize productivity and profitability as well.

Even during the "old days" of the 70's, it was a requirement to ice down commercial catches. Ice was not a luxury, it was a necessity to provide proper care of fish.

The simple truth is that certainly fish that are solely destined for canning may be just fine without ice, or with little ice as long as they are caught, quickly brought to shore, and processed in a short time period. As long as the core temperature of the fish does not remain elevated for a period of time, the histamine level will most likely not reach a dangerous level.

For todays commercial catches, most all reputable buyers insist on testing the temperature of the fish at time of delivery to ensure that proper cooling has taken place

Here is some appropriate information for reference, as well as proposed regulations that insure cooling of fish while on the water.

Ice is NOT a luxury.

Scombroid Poisoning

Albacore and other tunas contain relatively large amounts of the amino acid histidine in their flesh (amino acids are the building blocks of proteins). After the fish dies, bacterial enzymes break down the histidine to histamine. Humans consuming fish containing histamine, can become ill with scombroid poisoning. Symptoms include a metallic, sharp or peppery taste, nausea, vomiting, abdominal cramps and diarrhea, oral blistering and numbness, facial swelling and flushing, headache and dizziness, palpitations, hives, rapid and weak pulse, thirst and difficulty in swallowing. Most victims of scombroid poisoning recover within 24 hours; antihistamines usually lead to immediate improvement. Fish most often implicated in this illness include: mahi mahi, tuna, bluefish, mackerel, and bonito.
In 1993, there were several cases of scombroid poisoning reported in Newport, Oregon from unfrozen albacore sold from a fishing vessel to a restaurant. In order for histamine to form in the fish, the albacore had to be mishandled at some point between capture and consumption. The best way to prevent scombroid poisoning is rapid chilling on the vessel and controlling the temperature of the fish throughout storage and distribution. Once histamine forms in a fish, it cannot be eliminated by cooking, freezing or smoking. Histamine production occurs rapidly at high temperatures, but slows dramatically at temperatures below 40F. Fish held at 90F can become toxic within six hours and fish held at 70F can become toxic within 24 hours.

Proposed FDA Regulations

Proposed new FDA seafood regulations may have a major effect on albacore fishermen. In general, these proposed regulations call for monitoring selected steps in the production of seafood products in accordance with HACCP (Hazard Analysis Critical Control Point ) principles. In fisheries for albacore and other scombroid toxin forming fishes, handling on the fishing vessel is a critical control point in the production of a safe and wholesome product. FDA's proposed regulations for scombroid toxin forming fishes recommend that buyers ensure that the fish were chilled rapidly to 40F after capture, and that the fish were not held at time/temperature combinations that would allow histamine production. For vessel operators, this may require:

  1. Time and temperature logs for each storage compartment (well, tote or other container) to show that:
    1. the fish were chilled to an internal temperature of 40F or below as rapidly as possible after landing on the vessel,
    2. the fish were maintained at or below 40F after landing on the vessel, and
    3. the fish were delivered with a maximum core temperature of 40F;
  2. Records to show that thermometers agree within 2F of standard thermometers; and
  3. Fish inspection for decomposition with no more than 2.5% of the fish in each lot showing sensory decomposition.
If these criteria are not met, each lot of fish may have to be tested for histamine. Histamine testing is expensive and is probably not available in most ports. The current FDA regulatory level is 5 mg histamine/100 g flesh. Fish containing more histamine than this cannot be used as food. How rapidly fish must be chilled to 40F under this proposed regulation is unclear at this time.

__________________
The Sea-J in Depoe Bay- Small group charter fishing for the true fisherman.

nalucharters.com - Shimano/G.Loomis Pro Staff
Grady White 282- 4 Person Executive Charters

Anybody can catch a tuna in '07

By the grace of God we travel upon the rivers and sea. They, as He, are mightier than me. - M.J.

Last edited by Nalu; 07-20-2011 at 04:25 PM.
Nalu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 05:19 PM   #2
antbot
Cutthroat
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 39
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

I have heard about some boats probably commercial that use some kind of brine instead of ice anyone else know more about this...
antbot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 05:49 PM   #3
Nalu
 
Nalu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Beverly Beach, OR
Posts: 6,132
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by antbot View Post
I have heard about some boats probably commercial that use some kind of brine instead of ice anyone else know more about this...
RSW systems are commonplace on larger vessels. The water can be cooled below freezing and can chill fish to the point of being basically frozen. The application is not typically used on small sport vessels, but the same concept of using sea water, rock salt and ice to create a ultra low temperature slurry for fish prior to packing in ice is used extensively.
__________________
The Sea-J in Depoe Bay- Small group charter fishing for the true fisherman.

nalucharters.com - Shimano/G.Loomis Pro Staff
Grady White 282- 4 Person Executive Charters

Anybody can catch a tuna in '07

By the grace of God we travel upon the rivers and sea. They, as He, are mightier than me. - M.J.
Nalu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 06:08 PM   #4
Teton
King Salmon
 
Teton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,060
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

What?? You mean some people go tuna fishing around here without ice?
__________________
Teton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 06:10 PM   #5
JerryM
Ifish Nate
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,233
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

I am a big believer in icing fast, often and much. I use an ice, salt and water slurry to maximize my ice and cooling on the water. I then drain off and cover with ice for the ride in.

If you set aside the health issues related to not icing properly and only take into account practical handeling, ice is still very important. The first time you try to loin a tuna not iced well enough and the belly loin is a liquidy sludge, you understand you are losing a huge amount of meat and easily doubeling cark time.

I often wonder, when looking at old commercial tuna pictures, how much of the fish is for humans and how much is for animal food. Protein for animal food, including poultry and pork, comes from many sources still.
__________________
Boat "MaryNater"
JerryM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 06:24 PM   #6
nestucca
Chromer
 
nestucca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Beaver, Oregon
Posts: 779
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Yep, them-there Dory guys just don't know what they're doin'! We got to get more scientific! I know my ice don't work, 'cause I freeze up all my Costco milk jugs, and bust 'em over my fish as the day goes on. I gotta learn how to slury that stuff!
Didn't want to Hi-jack the 'Propper Care' thread, but nobody is perfect?......

Last edited by nestucca; 07-20-2011 at 06:29 PM.
nestucca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 06:27 PM   #7
Paddler
Ifish Nate
 
Paddler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 2,566
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

As a private boater, I emphasize quality over quantity. So, we handle all fish to Sashimi standards. Not icing tuna is not an option for me.
__________________
TEAM 50 WIDE- We don't reel fish in more than once.
Paddler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 06:37 PM   #8
Connelly
Chromer
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 821
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nestucca View Post
Yep, them-there Dory guys just don't know what they're doin'! We got to get more scientific! I know my ice don't work, 'cause I freeze up all my Costco milk jugs, and bust 'em over my fish as the day goes on. I gotta learn how to slury that stuff!
Didn't want to Hi-jack the 'Propper Care' thread, but nobody is perfect?......

:backlaugh:

Todays ice ain't as cold as it use to be!
Connelly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 06:57 PM   #9
Nalu
 
Nalu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Beverly Beach, OR
Posts: 6,132
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nestucca View Post
Yep, them-there Dory guys just don't know what they're doin'! We got to get more scientific! I know my ice don't work, 'cause I freeze up all my Costco milk jugs, and bust 'em over my fish as the day goes on. I gotta learn how to slury that stuff!
Didn't want to Hi-jack the 'Propper Care' thread, but nobody is perfect?......
Nestucca- Quite clearly nobody has said anything negative about anyone with a dory. I asked a specific question in a reasonable way, and intentionally chose to move care questions to another thread so as not to in any way infer anything negative on another thread.

I asked my question because I am interested in learning more about care of fish, and if there is a better way that those in a dory use, then better for me. I would like to minimize my ice as much as possible so I can better optimize space for fish storage.

Sorry that you somehow assumed something negative was directed at "dory guys" but it wasn't.
__________________
The Sea-J in Depoe Bay- Small group charter fishing for the true fisherman.

nalucharters.com - Shimano/G.Loomis Pro Staff
Grady White 282- 4 Person Executive Charters

Anybody can catch a tuna in '07

By the grace of God we travel upon the rivers and sea. They, as He, are mightier than me. - M.J.
Nalu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 07:07 PM   #10
Nalu
 
Nalu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Beverly Beach, OR
Posts: 6,132
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

I honestly tried to bring this topic up in a legitimate way so as not to infer anything negative, nor create any hard feelings or assumptions of negativity.

I'm pretty thick skinned, so my feelers are sure not hurt by anyone saying something bad about me. I know it may not mean squat, but I, like others, have been posting less and less on this forum because it simply is becoming annoying that people genuinely seem to seek out negativity or assume the worst.

Guess the new guard can have it. Have a good summer everyone.
__________________
The Sea-J in Depoe Bay- Small group charter fishing for the true fisherman.

nalucharters.com - Shimano/G.Loomis Pro Staff
Grady White 282- 4 Person Executive Charters

Anybody can catch a tuna in '07

By the grace of God we travel upon the rivers and sea. They, as He, are mightier than me. - M.J.
Nalu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 07:12 PM   #11
ChrisCurtis
Ifish Nate
 
ChrisCurtis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Vancouver, Wa - Salmon Creek
Posts: 3,384
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baxter View Post
I would just like to add one thing. Don't eat the potato salad after it has sat in the sun on the picnic table all afternoon. There oughta be a law!
**hijack alert!**
i agree, and the deviled eggs too! seriously, i typically take a 1 gallon ziplock of ice and set my perishable food on it to prevent spoilage and Scombroid Poisoning too!

oh, and i insist on ice, and lots of it. not just for tuna, but salmon, sturgeon, bottomfish, crab, steelhead, etc!
cc
__________________
Sometimes skipper, sometimes crew of the Black Pearl - 24 NR OS - Team Alderman
WIND BLOWS!!

Sailors may be struck down at any time, in calm or in storm, but the sea does not do it for hate or spite.
She has no wrath to vent. Nor does she have a hand in kindness to extend.
She is merely there, immense, powerful, and indifferent.
ChrisCurtis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 07:23 PM   #12
Goodidea
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Portland
Posts: 430
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Nicely stated Nalu, ICE IS NOT AN OPTION!
__________________
><{{{*> '·.¸¸·´¯'·.¸¸.· ><((((º>
Fishing?... Goodidea!
Goodidea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 07:25 PM   #13
JerryM
Ifish Nate
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,233
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nestucca View Post
Yep, them-there Dory guys just don't know what they're doin'! We got to get more scientific! I know my ice don't work, 'cause I freeze up all my Costco milk jugs, and bust 'em over my fish as the day goes on. I gotta learn how to slury that stuff!
Didn't want to Hi-jack the 'Propper Care' thread, but nobody is perfect?......
Sounds like icing to me. I thought about using frozen jugs to save some dollars but I have pretty limited space. I was worried the jugs would take up too much room in my ice boxes where I can displace the cubes with fish pretty easy. I bleed in ice water too and was thinking of dropping a couple ice jugs in my bleed containers instead of ice.

Nestucca, how long do you think I could get out of a frozen gallon jug with about two gallons of water and increasing blood on it? I could probably save four or five bags of ice if they will last all day.
__________________
Boat "MaryNater"
JerryM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 08:04 PM   #14
WoundedTuna
Chromer
 
WoundedTuna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Scappoose
Posts: 551
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

I ate some TUNA and mahi mahi we caught it Cabo right when we got back to the docks. It wasn't iced and it had only been a couple of hours from the catch to my plate. I got scrombroid poisoning and I will never eat another TUNA that was not iced again.

Thanks for the thread Nalu. I wish I had read one similar before my experience in Cabo.
__________________
GO BEAVS
WoundedTuna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 08:21 PM   #15
Keta
King Salmon
 
Keta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Klamath Falls...for now
Posts: 10,931
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Thanks Mike, it looks like some of us have forgotten fish is food.
__________________
Where in the AUP does it say you can't point out when someone is confused?
Keta is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 08:32 PM   #16
CptnMorgan
King Salmon
 
CptnMorgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Turner
Posts: 5,203
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baxter View Post
I would just like to add one thing. Don't eat the potato salad after it has sat in the sun on the picnic table all afternoon. There oughta be a law!
What you feed yourself and your family is all you. As for a law for keeping stuff cool at catered event, you bet there is a law. Lots of laws matter of fact that potato salad once is in the danger zone (warmer than 40 degree) into the garbage can it goes. Warm food has to be kept warm (120 degrees) gets cooler guess what into the garbage. Now pay me 10 bucks you just got your food handlers card.

Why would anyone really want to run the risk of getting food poisoning, really I really have better things to do then sit in the bathroom all day or worse.
CptnMorgan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 08:56 PM   #17
nestucca
Chromer
 
nestucca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Beaver, Oregon
Posts: 779
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryM View Post
Sounds like icing to me. I thought about using frozen jugs to save some dollars but I have pretty limited space. I was worried the jugs would take up too much room in my ice boxes where I can displace the cubes with fish pretty easy. I bleed in ice water too and was thinking of dropping a couple ice jugs in my bleed containers instead of ice.

Nestucca, how long do you think I could get out of a frozen gallon jug with about two gallons of water and increasing blood on it? I could probably save four or five bags of ice if they will last all day.
Sorry JerryM, I can't answer that because my dory 'was' (I sold it last winter) set up totally different than a conventional boat. The dory has a 'wash-through' fishbox. Ocean water flows back and forth throw the fishbox. I could hold 20, one gallon 'Costco' milk jugs (they are more square with a flat top-spout, which takes less space) in my cooler. As we harvest the tuna, they are immediately bled in the fishbox. It doesn't matter how fast they are coming to the boat (to a point) because the wash-through box holds quite a few pounds of fish. Once bled, (the blood flows out the fishbox, into the ocean) the fish were held in the bow section, wrapped in one of those very heavy-duty silver and brown tarps. I carried a single-bit hatchet, which I used the backside to break the ice in the jug, then use the bit side to slit the jug open. This might not be the 'best' method, but it's what I got. I'm just tired of the Government, and every other expert trying to convince me that it's their way or the highway. We are all individuals, with some major differences in boat layouts. Sorry Nalu, ya struck a cord at the wrong time. Probably my bad?
nestucca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 09:08 PM   #18
wdlfbio
Chromer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Maple Valley, WA
Posts: 681
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

I'm baffled by folks who would invest so much time, money, effort, and safety into this amazing fishery and then treat the catch like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

I ice the heck outta mine for a couple of reasons.
1) Respect for the catch. I want the HIGHEST quality meat I can have. I know that when those buggers are nearly frozen when I'm fileting them, they are as good as they can be.

2) Way easier to cleanly remove the skin and filet when they are nearly frozen. The guys I fish with know that I try to get every delicate piece of these fish. Even when we are cleaning 25-35 fish.

3) Health. I give a ton of this away to friends and family. The last thing I EVER want through this is to be responsible for a loved one getting sick because I was too cheap or wanted to substitute a few extra fish for enough ice.

It's all preference. I know there are folks out there who think nothing of running down a pronghorn/deer, elk, etc., shooting it, and then feeding that meat to their family.

If folks don't want to spend the money on ice or limit their catch to what they can best care for, so be it. But I for one sure as heck don't want anything to do with those fish or those folks.

I ice the crud outta mine, even add rock salt and water to each hold. But, I'd rather take too much care than not enough.

Tight lines folks.
__________________
2011 World Cat 290cc, F250s
2007 Grady White 282 Sailfish, F250s - Sold
wdlfbio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 09:36 PM   #19
tunaorlater
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Portland
Posts: 200
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Scombroid Poisoning- Doesn't sound too bad!!! Kidding..nice post
tunaorlater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 09:54 PM   #20
Keta
King Salmon
 
Keta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Klamath Falls...for now
Posts: 10,931
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Feel free to feed your family catfood, mine know what good fish looks, tastes and smells like and would not eat fish that were not properly taken care of from hooking to cooking.

Scromboid efects sport caught fish the same as commercial fish and if fish smells fishy something is seriously wrong with it.
__________________
Where in the AUP does it say you can't point out when someone is confused?
Keta is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 10:31 PM   #21
nestucca
Chromer
 
nestucca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Beaver, Oregon
Posts: 779
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keta View Post
Feel free to feed your family catfood, mine know what good fish looks, tastes and smells like and would not eat fish that were not properly taken care of from hooking to cooking.

Scromboid efects sport caught fish the same as commercial fish and if fish smells fishy something is seriously wrong with it.
Thank you for giving me the green light to feed my family catfood, but I think I'll pass? Even my 'Dory' family knows what good fish look, taste and smell like and would not eat fish that were not properly taken care of from hooking to cooking. Guess our families are very similar? They are very lucky to have such knowledgable providers.
Oh, but I do bag up and freeze tuna scraps for our thee-legged cat, but only in 'zip-bags', not Vac-bags!
nestucca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2011, 12:26 AM   #22
my79is2bad
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Salem
Posts: 344
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Pictures of the 3-legged beast eating tuna please
Always plan to bring too much ice as worse that can happen is it melts, the day you dont bring enough you'll need it
my79is2bad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2011, 06:37 AM   #23
CAPT KUJO
 
CAPT KUJO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Pacific City
Posts: 2,692
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddler View Post
As a private boater, I emphasize quality over quantity. So, we handle all fish to Sashimi standards. Not icing tuna is not an option for me.

Here is a copy of those standards:

http://www.ifish.net/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=29387&d=1277919857
__________________
Like USIA on Facebook

Also likeJOC KUJO on Facebook
CAPT KUJO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2011, 07:05 AM   #24
crabbait
King Salmon
 
crabbait's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Jose, Costa Rica
Posts: 30,859
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Quote:
I'm just tired of the Government, and every other expert trying to convince me that it's their way or the highway. We are all individuals, with some major differences in boat layouts. Sorry Nalu, ya struck a cord at the wrong time. Probably my bad?
Nestucca, in my opinion you need to pull your feelers in a little. Nobody is telling you that your way is wrong.

Remember, some people are very new at tuna and may not have heard that improperly cooled tuna can make you very sick. They may not be carrying any ice at all.

If you find something useful in how others care for their fish, use it. If not, let it go. It wasn't meant as criticism of you or the dory fleet.
__________________
Goin' where the sun keeps shinin' through the pouring rain
Goin' where the weather suits my clothes...
Pura Vida
crabbait is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2011, 07:06 AM   #25
ChrisCurtis
Ifish Nate
 
ChrisCurtis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Vancouver, Wa - Salmon Creek
Posts: 3,384
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalu View Post
I honestly tried to bring this topic up in a legitimate way so as not to infer anything negative, nor create any hard feelings or assumptions of negativity.

I'm pretty thick skinned, so my feelers are sure not hurt by anyone saying something bad about me. I know it may not mean squat, but I, like others, have been posting less and less on this forum because it simply is becoming annoying that people genuinely seem to seek out negativity or assume the worst.

Guess the new guard can have it. Have a good summer everyone.
oh c'mon mike, don't be a quitter! don't give up so easy........don't be like kennyg!
__________________
Sometimes skipper, sometimes crew of the Black Pearl - 24 NR OS - Team Alderman
WIND BLOWS!!

Sailors may be struck down at any time, in calm or in storm, but the sea does not do it for hate or spite.
She has no wrath to vent. Nor does she have a hand in kindness to extend.
She is merely there, immense, powerful, and indifferent.
ChrisCurtis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2011, 07:29 AM   #26
redranger76
Cutthroat
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 35
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Good to know, thx.
redranger76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2011, 07:34 AM   #27
Chass
Ifish Nate
 
Chass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Jasper OR
Posts: 2,964
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Yes, Icing is not an option, its a requirement in my mind. Of course, I don't see anyone saying they don't ice at all. Its about the level of icing.

Fish are bled for no more than 5 minutes if possible. Sometimes we miss one in the blead barrel for a little while, I always feel bad about that one. We always do an ice brine with seawater, sometimes with rocksalt. Fish stay in that until that cooler can't hold anymore fish. Then they are packed in ice for the rest of the trip.

Chass
ct
__________________
22' Boulton Sea Skiff - Team Flying Iron
Chass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2011, 08:00 AM   #28
nestucca
Chromer
 
nestucca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Beaver, Oregon
Posts: 779
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Quote:
Originally Posted by crabbait View Post
Nestucca, in my opinion you need to pull your feelers in a little. Nobody is telling you that your way is wrong.

Remember, some people are very new at tuna and may not have heard that improperly cooled tuna can make you very sick. They may not be carrying any ice at all.

If you find something useful in how others care for their fish, use it. If not, let it go. It wasn't meant as criticism of you or the dory fleet.
Guess my skin isn't as thick as some, crabbait. My feelings 'were' hurt. (and I believe justifiably) I have pulled my feelers in.
Kujo, thanks for the data you provided, it was very educational without comparing who's right or wrong.
nestucca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2011, 08:19 AM   #29
No Fences
King Salmon
 
No Fences's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Carlton, OR
Posts: 6,608
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

I'm still a tunagin and while I often wondered about the importance of icing, I never once questioned it? Prior to reading this thread, had I gone on an open seat ride for tuna and they weren't icing, that I would question.
__________________
Take a kid hunting or fishing.
No Fences is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2011, 08:53 AM   #30
StickFish
King Salmon
 
StickFish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Somewhere way past the bass clef. Often Tigard Oregon
Posts: 15,351
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

A good sized group of us used to fish one of the over night boats from Westport. I missed the first year the trip went and heard of epic rough ocean and an insane one hour bite that put over a 100 fish on the deck in short order. That boat used a refrigerated space to hold its tuna, not a RSW system. There were several who lost large amounts of their catch because of poor cooling and poor bleeding. The next year we vowed to do it different. Skipper wouldn't let us load our own ice insisting that he had enough and wouldn't let us touch a knife because of liability. Most had their fish carked by the crew at sea and got bags of loins. He had only enough ice to cover the first layer of fish, I chose to take my fish home whole and basically got all my fish that had been on ice. I didn't loose any meat. However, several again lost large portions of their catch trying to process in time and we are talking seasoned guys, not guys like me who have only been at this a few years. Now none of us will fish on his boat.

Is ice important? I don't care what boat it is, if we are not icing fish, I will not be taking any of it home. To me ice is very important.
__________________
Picked a bad year to quit sniffing glue
StickFish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2011, 11:11 AM   #31
PIR8 Hook
Ifish Nate
 
PIR8 Hook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Sandlake
Posts: 2,888
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nestucca View Post
Guess my skin isn't as thick as some, crabbait. My feelings 'were' hurt. (and I believe justifiably)
+1 Skip....I have a hard time thinking that any of these bigger boat ops REALLY care one twit about how we dorymen do it or it would have stopped when Charles posted his fishbox photos & you told how you use the CostCo milk jugs.
__________________
Hook
"Yes, I am a PIR8....200 years too late"
PIR8 Hook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2011, 12:06 PM   #32
Keta
King Salmon
 
Keta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Klamath Falls...for now
Posts: 10,931
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nestucca View Post
Oh, but I do bag up and freeze tuna scraps for our thee-legged cat, but only in 'zip-bags', not Vac-bags!
In Alaska our cats were fed canned salmon hearts, here they get canned tuna trimings. We have happy cats, even the semi wild barn cats.
__________________
Where in the AUP does it say you can't point out when someone is confused?
Keta is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2011, 01:25 PM   #33
Nalu
 
Nalu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Beverly Beach, OR
Posts: 6,132
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PIR8 Hook View Post
+1 Skip....I have a hard time thinking that any of these bigger boat ops REALLY care one twit about how we dorymen do it or it would have stopped when Charles posted his fishbox photos & you told how you use the CostCo milk jugs.
It is unfortunate that you think that. I don't know if I fit into your category, but I can tell you that I do care a "twit" since learning how others do things is the way I improve what I do.

My goal is to carry the least amount of ice possible while still retaining the quality of fish that I desire. If somebody has a better way, then that is something that I very much would like to understand.

For my boat, I feel that I max out at about 30 fish with 210 lbs of ice. I generally figure about 7#'s per fish in the current method I use.

Just to be clear.... I know it is very possible to catch and store tuna on day boats with little or no ice and still have a safe and palatable fish for both canning as well as standard table fare. Processes such as bleeding, running water over the fish, etc., and getting back to the dock in a timely manner make this entirely possible. As noted, the histamine levels rise, but most likely will not be to unsafe levels during what is typically a short day trip.

The icing procedure that many people use is NOT mandatory as long as procedures are followed that keep the fish fine for eating.

Icing procedures that many people try to use are intended to preserve tuna at the very optimal quality, which is elevated significantly above "safe" standards. Many anglers wish to have loins that come off the fish as absolutely solid as possible, with absolutely no gaping, and nothing soft in any way.

In the years that I have been fishing I have always tried to ice my fish to a standard that every loin comes off 100% totally firm. I have had mixed success with this, with most being very good, some being good, some being mediocre, and occasionally, some being soft and while still safe, not what I want for table fare.

It is my opinion that the style of fishing that takes place for tuna definitely impacts how fish need to be iced.

From best table fare to worst, or rather, from the most minimal icing needs, to the most...

1. Handline fish- Since there is basically no fight, and the fish is brought to the boat quickly and subdued quickly, the fish does not generate heat from the fight and needs the least chilling.
2. Heavy troll gear- Similar to handlines, less fight, less heat, less ice. Still with some fight, they seem to need more icing.
3.- Light tackle, jigs, swimbaits- Longer duration fights seem to definitely heat the fish up, and makes it more essential to chill fish quickly to lower the temperture in order to retain the meat as good table fare.

I can rationally envision that a boat that was primarily pulling handlines as their primary way of catching tuna could use significantly less ice to retain the same quality of fish as a boat such as mine that tends to catch more fish on light tackle. There is no open and shut method or rationale on "how much, or how to do it" with regard to fish care.

The fish we caught last Sunday were lazy fish, caught on heavy troll gear. The peanuts that we caught had some of the firmest, most palatable loins I have had in ages. I firmly believe that a 12# peanut caught on a handline or troll gear that was taken care of identically to a 30# fish caught on light tackle would have a dramatic difference in the quality of the loin.
__________________
The Sea-J in Depoe Bay- Small group charter fishing for the true fisherman.

nalucharters.com - Shimano/G.Loomis Pro Staff
Grady White 282- 4 Person Executive Charters

Anybody can catch a tuna in '07

By the grace of God we travel upon the rivers and sea. They, as He, are mightier than me. - M.J.
Nalu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2011, 02:35 PM   #34
Baxter
Chromer
 
Baxter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Reedville
Posts: 597
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalu View Post
...Just to be clear.... I know it is very possible to catch and store tuna on day boats with little or no ice and still have a safe and palatable fish for both canning as well as standard table fare. Processes such as bleeding, running water over the fish, etc., and getting back to the dock in a timely manner make this entirely possible. As noted, the histamine levels rise, but most likely will not be to unsafe levels during what is typically a short day trip.

The icing procedure that many people use is NOT mandatory as long as procedures are followed that keep the fish fine for eating.

Icing procedures that many people try to use are intended to preserve tuna at the very optimal quality, which is elevated significantly above "safe" standards. Many anglers wish to have loins that come off the fish as absolutely solid as possible, with absolutely no gaping, and nothing soft in any way....
I don't see how this is any different than my post you quoted in the o.p. above. That's curious, as it sure seems at the top of this thread that you set out to refute me.

I took your original question ("How do you ice 67 albies on a dory?") to be rhetorical; in other words, since we would all imagine that a dory off the beach hitting an unexpected July tuna bonanza would likely have insufficient ice/storage to cool all those fish in an ideal way, your question seemed more accusation of improper handling than sincere question. Whatever your intent, that is how I read it, and my answer was that a lack of ice does not necessarily equate to spoiled or wasted fish, which is what you have just posted yourself, in your own words.

We appear to be in agreement. We both ice our fish because we prefer high quality, but leave room for the possibility that others can make do with less or no ice. If I misread the spirit of your original question I apologize.
Baxter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2011, 03:00 PM   #35
Tinman
King Salmon
 
Tinman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Portland & Oceanside, Oregon
Posts: 6,576
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Nalu, you might be over-thinking this. Any angler is motivated to bring home the best quality fish because it tastes better. And since anglers are a clever lot, each fiddles with fish/ice storage on his own boat and finds a way that works for him. I have to think that the owner of a boat knows what works on his boat.

This ain't rocket science. We bonk em' and bleed em' and each fisher does his best to keep 'em cool in a way that works on the boat he's got. The happy result is a whole lot of fishers eating a whole lot of superb fish, and giving it away to friends and neighbors.
__________________
Ifish Member #223
22 foot Learned dory "Evenstar"
14 foot rowing wherry "Evensong"
Tinman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2011, 04:34 PM   #36
Nalu
 
Nalu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Beverly Beach, OR
Posts: 6,132
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baxter View Post
I don't see how this is any different than my post you quoted in the o.p. above. That's curious, as it sure seems at the top of this thread that you set out to refute me.

I took your original question ("How do you ice 67 albies on a dory?") to be rhetorical; in other words, since we would all imagine that a dory off the beach hitting an unexpected July tuna bonanza would likely have insufficient ice/storage to cool all those fish in an ideal way, your question seemed more accusation of improper handling than sincere question. Whatever your intent, that is how I read it, and my answer was that a lack of ice does not necessarily equate to spoiled or wasted fish, which is what you have just posted yourself, in your own words.

We appear to be in agreement. We both ice our fish because we prefer high quality, but leave room for the possibility that others can make do with less or no ice. If I misread the spirit of your original question I apologize.
Perhaps if people read less into what was written, and just took what was written at face value, they would not find themselves later saying that they read an accusation into something.

I asked the question because I was interested in understanding how 67 albies in a dory were cared for. It seems like a lot, but I am not a dory fisherman, and I do not know.....so I asked the question. Factors such as handline vs. rod and reel, slush box vs. straight ice, wash box, etc. are the answers I was interested in getting as it educates myself and others.

The reason I had to put the above statement up was because people like yourself assumed the worst, and assumed it was some sort of accusation, instead of the sincere inquisitory question that it was.

At the top of this post, my intent was clearly to state that un-iced fish are not typically bought commercially as you mentioned commercial catches. Fish that have core temperatures higher than a certain point will not be accepted by most fish buyers. The only way to lower those core temperatures is with ice. I do not sell my catch commercially, but those that I know very well that do, spend considerable effort lowering the temperature of their tuna adequately. This was why I stated that ice is important.

I have a very open mind and an inquisitive nature. I look forward to being educated and learning how I can improve what I do for myself, and for those that fish with me. If I ask a question, I would appreciate not having to go through this pile of BS to prove that it is a legitimate question. The alternative is to not ask a question at all....which is of course what more and more people are finding that they don't want to do on this forum.

Eight years and 5000 posts later, I'm finally getting around to the point with the other people that are saying that it's getting old around here.
__________________
The Sea-J in Depoe Bay- Small group charter fishing for the true fisherman.

nalucharters.com - Shimano/G.Loomis Pro Staff
Grady White 282- 4 Person Executive Charters

Anybody can catch a tuna in '07

By the grace of God we travel upon the rivers and sea. They, as He, are mightier than me. - M.J.
Nalu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2011, 04:36 PM   #37
Nalu
 
Nalu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Beverly Beach, OR
Posts: 6,132
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinman View Post
Nalu, you might be over-thinking this. Any angler is motivated to bring home the best quality fish because it tastes better. And since anglers are a clever lot, each fiddles with fish/ice storage on his own boat and finds a way that works for him. I have to think that the owner of a boat knows what works on his boat.

This ain't rocket science. We bonk em' and bleed em' and each fisher does his best to keep 'em cool in a way that works on the boat he's got. The happy result is a whole lot of fishers eating a whole lot of superb fish, and giving it away to friends and neighbors.
Tinman- You could be right. But in the same vein, then I would no longer share how I catch fish, care for fish, or what gear I use. If each angler knows what's best for them inherently, and nobody asks any questions, then nothing changes. Seems like that's the mode around here anymore. Too bad, 'cuz for awhile now it seems like a lot has moved forward with different techniques, and how fishing has "progressed" by sharing of information.
__________________
The Sea-J in Depoe Bay- Small group charter fishing for the true fisherman.

nalucharters.com - Shimano/G.Loomis Pro Staff
Grady White 282- 4 Person Executive Charters

Anybody can catch a tuna in '07

By the grace of God we travel upon the rivers and sea. They, as He, are mightier than me. - M.J.
Nalu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2011, 05:07 PM   #38
Tinman
King Salmon
 
Tinman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Portland & Oceanside, Oregon
Posts: 6,576
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalu View Post
Tinman- You could be right. But in the same vein, then I would no longer share how I catch fish, care for fish, or what gear I use. If each angler knows what's best for them inherently, and nobody asks any questions, then nothing changes. Seems like that's the mode around here anymore. Too bad, 'cuz for awhile now it seems like a lot has moved forward with different techniques, and how fishing has "progressed" by sharing of information.
Good points Mike. Let's keep the information free-flowing.
__________________
Ifish Member #223
22 foot Learned dory "Evenstar"
14 foot rowing wherry "Evensong"
Tinman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2011, 05:48 PM   #39
KingSlew
Ifish Nate
 
KingSlew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Toledo
Posts: 2,757
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baxter View Post
If you click on this link, the first picture you see is a boat circa 1946 with multiple holds full of albacore tuna, with no ice in sight. No particular need to reference history of course; take a trip tomorrow on a larger charter boat out of an Oregon port and, chances are, your tuna will not be iced.

It is very possible to harvest albacore without "10 pounds of ice per fish"--or any ice at all--and turn it into canned fish without losing any nutritive quality. The fetish with ice is a luxury of the modern era and the fat wallet. I carry plenty of ice myself because I like the loins to be firm and not mushy around the edges. Also, I like to make attractive medallions for the bbq and eat some fresh. But the fact is, if destined for the canner, ice makes precious little difference in edibility. People have taken and eaten fish of all types for eons without the use of ice.

Personally, I'm done making any value judgments about how many fish people take, how they publicize it, why they take them, or how they use them, in what for the time being is an unlimited fishery, according both to law and the plenitude of nature. And I assume that a guy who takes his share his own way will not judge those who do it differently, particularly those who fish using less resources in the form of frozen money.
Having killed many tons of Albacore back in the '50s, I felt a need to correct some assumptions. For one, those are not "holds" shown in the photo in the link posted by Baxter. Those are "bins." Bins function to prevent your deck load from sloshing around.

Normal procedure, in my time, was to let the fish cool out on deck and then we would put them down in the hold in layers of ICE. We would put fish down during lulls in the fishing or when we needed deck space or, at days end. It should be noted that we were fishing for the canneries, not fresh fish, but, icing was always an important and necessary part of caring for Albacore. Albacore quickly spoils. Much faster than other species.

It is also worth noting that scomboid poisoning, while very unpleasant, is very rarely fatal.
__________________
...on Fridays, I fish.

Last edited by KingSlew; 07-21-2011 at 09:12 PM.
KingSlew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2011, 06:29 PM   #40
Odd-A-Sea
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Lake Oswego / Lincoln City
Posts: 222
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

waaaaa Mom he's touching me!!!!!!
waaaaa Mom she's calling me names!!!!!!!
waaaaa He's looking at me!!!!!!

jeezo peezo guys! give it a rest

Sounds like a bunch of 12 year olds in the back seat of the car. I've been listening to NALU for some time, and have never seen a negative post or one that seemed to be demeaning to anyone. He has been quick to provide info to help lots of us. Why is it we feel the need to take offense so easily? Lets start assuming the best instead of the worst.
Don't make me pull this car over!!!!!!! LOL
__________________
A good time to keep your mouth shut is when you're in deep water.
Odd-A-Sea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2011, 09:02 PM   #41
Headhunter
Sturgeon
 
Headhunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Portland
Posts: 3,767
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

Mike, as always very informative and a credit to the sport. Thank you for sharing your skill and knowledge with us. I have learned quite a bit on this thread.

I second the notion to "Don't make me pull over"
__________________
Fins, Feathers & Fur
DU Member & Saltwater fish junkie
Team Riding The Pine.
Headhunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2011, 09:30 PM   #42
Paddler
Ifish Nate
 
Paddler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 2,566
Default Re: Proper care of tuna- the reasons why...

The first time I went out for tuna, we caught just five. I didn't put them into slush, just packed them in ice. The next day they were cool, not cold to the touch. Each fish had melted the ice around it, making a little igloo. I've been slushing them since.
__________________
TEAM 50 WIDE- We don't reel fish in more than once.
Paddler is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Cast to



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:17 PM.

Terms of Service
Page generated in 0.71041 seconds with 63 queries