ODFW Dropping the Ball in Ukiah

[57chevy]

This hunting season in Ukiah was the worst I have ever had there in 32 years of hunting and 36 years of going there. My family has been going there for almost 50 years and none of them, father or mother, can remember a worse year than this. ODFW doesn’t seem to care about the dwindling numbers of wildlife in the surround area of the as I was told I wouldn’t understand.

We hunt along 21, which splits the Starkey and Ukiah units. Where we hunt and have hunted, the ODFW’s private elk reserve is about ½ mile from 21. You know the 12 foot high fence that goes for 40 square miles (plus they added some more later). The one they put in 20 years ago, lying to everyone that it would only be there no more than 10 years. My grandfather then told everyone at that meeting that they would never tear down that fence once it was put in, and he was right. They wanted to show us that they could manage wildlife better than how it has been, so the first year, they started with 600 elk. The next year, they had 1800 elk. Wow, simple math tells you that all 600 elk and twins and they all survived the winter and predators, but how did all these elk get pregnant if all of them had twins? This question was asked by my grandfather at a meeting, and when they found the error, they stated now that a few of the elk had triplets, so they do have bulls in the fence making the babies. Now it is getting private donations from people from out of the state to keep it operating.

When they started to see the elk population dwindle, they stated it is our hunting practices of killing the cows, so they eliminated cow season and the 1 elk tag, which should help and it probably did. Problem is, the elk and deer are very smart. The cougar, bear, and wolves are very smart also.

Over the last 30 plus years, I can recall just about every hunting season because this is my vacation time with my family. I can also tell you that since that fence was put up, after the first 3-5 years, you could really notice the decline in elk and deer in the areas. You see, around the fence, there is a ¼ mile no hunting buffer zone marked, which good hunters abide by. But, there are some that don’t, and the fence makes it very easy for poachers to take animals as the fence is clear all the way down it. They can’t go over or under it. The poachers know this and so do the predators.

This year, there were 4-5 animals killed inside the zone and even one killed on the fence on day 2 of the hunting season alone. 4 verified by gut piles verified inside the zone, one was told, but I couldn’t find the remains. The hunters that hunted by the rules got screwed as the poachers shot the hell out of the heard and pushed them out of the area, so they left before it escalated. I don’t know if they got the plates on the vehicles of the guys packing out the meat or not.

Last year, I saw around 40 elk during the 2nd hunt. I thought that was average as the group had a few bulls, just no spikes, oh well. This year, not one live elk from 4 out of 6 in the party was seen. The 2 who saw elk saw the same elk; 4 total, 1 bull and 3 cows. I saw a total of 11 deer, no bucks.

Back to the animals are smart. If elk and deer see a pattern where they see humans and shootings in an area and don’t see them for the most part in another, they will move there, it’s just natural to find a safe haven. I remember several times of finding elk in the woods and giving them a chase, only to have them go into the no hunting zone, stop, turn around and look at you. They are very smart. But you also have the predator being smart, and if you were a predator, you would move to where the food was. And to be helped by a fence to stop them from running in 3 directions down to just 2, would seem for a smart animal to make it easier for the kill and meal. When my daughter and I walk this fence line for exercise, you do see remains and bones up to 100 yards into the woods quite often, proving that predators have adapted to this as well, remember, they are smart. The problem is that we are not smart. The land further than ½ mile away is or has slowly lost its animals that use to freely graze and now has almost become barren without the normal life of the animals. ODFW’s animal report shows you that the population of the elk and deer relatively close to the fence is good. What they don’t tell you is the breakdown of distance they measure this by. The population within that ½ mile is high, but after that, it is very low. This is my belief; I do not have the numbers, just 36 years of field experience up there. This doesn’t even compare to their scientific ways of measuring from the ODFW as they have degree’s and “I couldn’t possibly understand the ways of how to manage wildlife without a degree” quoted an ^#$@ from the ODFW. I do understand that since the fence was put in, the number of elk and deer in the area have now become almost extinct outside the buffer zone. But he did state that once I got my bachelor’s degree in Biology, to call him so I could understand what he does at an equal level in language. I think he lost his silver spoon when he sat on it…

The ODFW says they are trying to put things back to nature by covering up roads that have been there for over 75 years, so they fill them in and lay a lot of debris on top of the fill to make it look natural. They also have placed many burms in the roads to keep you from driving into the areas. Some of this I can understand. But how is keeping a 40 square mile fence up in the middle of the natural migration path (as of 20 years ago) keeping it natural? The path has since moved a different way, about 6 miles east, so there are no migration animals coming in this area. When asked to see a list of the 25 people who get to hunt in the Starkey area by someone in a meeting, they said those were not for public view; ok, I guess. What have they got to hide? It just seems to me it is hypocritical for them to say they are putting things back to how it was, but leaving their personal zoo intact.

I would give up my hunting rights in that area and never hunt there again just to have that fence down and get the area back to a normal or “natural” way. If they want to have it back to natural, they can tear down the fence, and if any of their pets want to stick around to be fed, then they will. These animals should not be caged up, even though it is a big cage, it is still a cage. This cage enables poachers an easy path for success and there are far too few game wardens and state troopers to patrol it. I would hope that some of the guys with influence to the ODFW would give them a reality check.

[gottafish]

I use to hunt that area before the fire and it was pretty good. in the last 4 years I dont waist time in that unit. the last year I hunted there I saw 4 wolves in the burn chasing 4 does. then later in the year my buddy saw a 3 wolves about 10 miles away from where I was hunting standing over a dead Moo cow. But the ODFW could care less. they just keep issuing 3000 tags a year for deer its crap I tell ya. not to mention the cougar and bears.

[Rank Amateur]

Originally Posted by gottafish

I use to hunt that area before the fire and it was pretty good. in the last 4 years I dont waist time in that unit. the last year I hunted there I saw 4 wolves in the burn chasing 4 does. then later in the year my buddy saw a 3 wolves about 10 miles away from where I was hunting standing over a dead Moo cow. But the ODFW could care less. they just keep issuing 3000 tags a year for deer its crap I tell ya. not to mention the cougar and bears.

If you keep buying the tags, they will sell them!


elk having twins and triplets!

[3dvapor]

we dont need a experimental forest to manage wildlife. there are plenty of states like utah and arizona that are great examples. especially with what little resources they have.

[Gus Orviston]

I think next year I will be spending my money and time hunting elk outside oregon for many reasons related to oregon management of their resources.

gus

[RidgeRunner]

I hunted the Ukiah unit for many years and had great success and lots of fond memories. I would not hunt in that unit any more. To many tags are issued for that unit know. ODFW has to figure things out with some of these units. The deer numbers are dropping faster that the hunters not returning to hunt.

[Blacktail Slayer]

Originally Posted by 3dvapor

we dont need a experimental forest to manage wildlife. there are plenty of states like utah and arizona that are great examples. especially with what little resources they have.

So we don't need science to manage wildlife. Yep I bet Utah and Arizona never use science. I think a lot of people need to learn more about wildlife and management. The anti's are gathering their science. If ODFW doesn't have science to show the F&W commission, public, and use for other political education; then the anti's will get their way. I think it is time people spend a little less time on the computer complaining about wildlife management and get a little more educated by doing some research into the matter.

I thought all of the sportsmen and women at the capitol hunter hearing along with all the hunting organizations asked the House Natural Resource Committee to use more science. Were you all not there? Do you not stand behind all the hunting organizations and hunters at the hearing? What is going on here???????????

[Tablescrap]

Originally Posted by Blacktail Slayer

So we don't need science to manage wildlife. Yep I bet Utah and Arizona never use science. I think a lot of people need to learn more about how wildlife and managed. The anti's are gathering their science. If ODFW doesn't have science to show the F&W commision, public, and use for other political education; then the anti's will get their way. I think it is time people spend a little less time on the computer complaining about wildlife management and get a little more educated by doing some research into the matter.

I thought all of the sportsmen and women at the capitol hunter hearing along with all the hunting organizations asked the House Natural Resource Committee to use more science. Were you all not there? Do you not stand behind all the hunting organizations and hunters at the hearing? What is going on here???????????

[bigjake_888]

Thanks for the post. Don't have much to say other than my grampa told me hunting was better when he was young. My father told me the same thing. I will probably say the same.

[gottafish]

I can see the day coming when it'll be big news when someone sees an elk/deer

[57chevy]

Originally Posted by Blacktail Slayer

So we don't need science to manage wildlife. Yep I bet Utah and Arizona never use science. I think a lot of people need to learn more about wildlife and management. The anti's are gathering their science. If ODFW doesn't have science to show the F&W commission, public, and use for other political education; then the anti's will get their way. I think it is time people spend a little less time on the computer complaining about wildlife management and get a little more educated by doing some research into the matter.

I thought all of the sportsmen and women at the capitol hunter hearing along with all the hunting organizations asked the House Natural Resource Committee to use more science. Were you all not there? Do you not stand behind all the hunting organizations and hunters at the hearing? What is going on here???????????

So this years experiment is to see how the elk and deer react to the quads that are around them, in a 40 square mile cage?

[PaintedEagle]

Our group had the same bad results in Starkey unit this year over towards N. Powder. We had 10 hunters in our group, 3 any bull tags and 7 spike only tags. 3 of the guys went behind the gate to look things over 3 days before the hunt began and saw a 5 point bull across the bottom of the draw. That was it! One person jumped 4 cows and on Friday I spotted 1 across the bottom of the draw but the fog was moving through and couldn't catch it's head before it disappeared. Later that day a hunter and his son were walking the road and told me that ODFW were feeding the elk down by the hiway 2 weeks before season started.

[ORsouthpaw]

I have also spent time some time in Ukiah and as far as the fence being the biggest problem I don't really agree. It may contribute to the overall reduction but the fact that the predator poulation has increased at the same time that there has been a decrease in habitat is likely the biggest factors. The elk migrated through even with the fence in place, however that changed drastically after the Tower Mountain fire (loss of cover). They still get from point A to Point B but they use a route that affords them better protection. As far as the Mule Deer populations go, predators top the list of culprits. My understanding is that ODFW knows this and that is why they have planned to target this area for cougar removal which has already proven to help both deer and elk alike in adjacent areas.

It can be frustrating to not see animals where once there were many. Will the animals ever be as plentiful as they were pre-94? Probabaly not unless there are some serious changes that go beyond just using contract hunters to target a few select areas for predator reduction.

[Bill Monroe]

We hunt the same area and more than likely the major problem is predation. More and more cougar sign in recent years...bears, too.
ODFW recognizes this and is about to put the Heppner-type hammer on Ukiah cougars.
The experimental forest is an important facility and needs to continue operation.

[Bait Bucket]

Originally Posted by Bill Monroe

We hunt the same area and more than likely the major problem is predation. More and more cougar sign in recent years...bears, too.
ODFW recognizes this and is about to put the Heppner-type hammer on Ukiah cougars.
The experimental forest is an important facility and needs to continue operation.

Trust me. It hasn't worked in Heppner yet.

[Rank Amateur]

Originally Posted by Bait Bucket

Trust me. It hasn't worked in Heppner yet.

I've always wondered what the rate of back fill and recruitment is for cougars when they create a vacancy??

[CombinationLicense]

Originally Posted by Rank Amateur

I've always wondered what the rate of back fill and recruitment is for cougars when they create a vacancy??

Me too! Apparently there is none because ODFW refuses to acknowledge it on a regular basis...



"CL"

[baltz526]

Having viewed a section of a unit that had 18 cougar taken out of it. The deer numbers are growing in the effected area. Now if the cougars are removed every 5 years by the goverment trapper forever. We may see the Deer numbers stabilize

[57chevy]

Originally Posted by Bill Monroe

We hunt the same area and more than likely the major problem is predation. More and more cougar sign in recent years...bears, too.
ODFW recognizes this and is about to put the Heppner-type hammer on Ukiah cougars.
The experimental forest is an important facility and needs to continue operation.

Why Bill, is that facility so important??? How long have you hunted this area? I did find several sign of bear and bobcat.

[Blacktail Slayer]

Originally Posted by ORsouthpaw

I have also spent time some time in Ukiah and as far as the fence being the biggest problem I don't really agree. It may contribute to the overall reduction but the fact that the predator poulation has increased at the same time that there has been a decrease in habitat which is likely the biggest factors. The elk migrated through even with the fence in place, however that changed drastically after the Tower Mountain fire (loss of cover). They still get from point A to Point B but they use a route that affords them better protection. As far as the Mule Deer populations go, predators top the list of culprits. My understanding is that ODFW knows this and that is why they have planned to target this area for cougar removal which has already to help both deer and elk alike.

It can be frustrating to not see animals where once there were many. Will the animals ever be as plentiful as they were pre-94? Probabaly not unless there are some serious changes that go beyond just using contract hunters to target a few select areas for predator reduction.

+1

[Blacktail Slayer]

Originally Posted by baltz526

Having viewed a section of a unit that had 18 cougar taken out of it. The deer numbers are growing in the effected area. Now if the cougars are removed every 5 years by the goverment trapper forever. We may see the Deer numbers stabilize

There have been results like Baltz has stated. Results will still be seen a few years after the cougar removal is over. The sad thing that Baltz is also true about is that cougar removal would have to continue on a rotation. Every unit may be a little different on the years separating the rotation of cougar removal. That is going to be the question for Oregon and how we will be able to keep up with the cost and time(hired houndsmen and trappers running all over Oregon). Time will only tell.

[57chevy]

Originally Posted by baltz526

Having viewed a section of a unit that had 18 cougar taken out of it. The deer numbers are growing in the effected area. Now if the cougars are removed every 5 years by the goverment trapper forever. We may see the Deer numbers stabilize

Did that unit have the fence in or around the area?

[baltz526]

No fence

[Blacktail Slayer]

Here is why science is needed to figure out the what, where, when, why, and how of wildlife management. Just look back when science wasn’t used to manage wildlife life; such as our salmon and deer/coyotes in the Kaibab. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out; just a wildlife biologist

Conservation Strategy Foreword
http://www.dfw.state.or.us/conservat...f/Foreword.pdf

Oregon Conservation Strategy
http://www.dfw.state.or.us/conservat...contents.asp#a

[57chevy]

Originally Posted by Blacktail Slayer

Here is why science is needed to figure out the what, where, when, why, and how of wildlife management. Just look back when science wasn’t used to manage wildlife life; such as our salmon and deer/coyotes in the Kaibab. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out; just a wildlife biologist

Conservation Strategy Foreword
http://www.dfw.state.or.us/conservat...f/Foreword.pdf

Oregon Conservation Strategy
http://www.dfw.state.or.us/conservat...contents.asp#a

Being a psychology major with a minor in micro-electronics, I guess I just understand the sales pitch and I doubt you would like my view of it, but it was written very nicely and I better stop there.

[SILVERSINK]

Originally Posted by gottafish

I can see the day coming when it'll be big news when someone sees an elk/deer

I agree. Its at way in the Starkey unit now.
10 days in the woods and darn few sightings unlike 25 or 30 yrs ago when you could see 50 Elk in 10 days.

[SILVERSINK]

Originally Posted by gottafish

I can see the day coming when it'll be big news when someone sees an elk/deer

Originally Posted by 57chevy

This hunting season in Ukiah was the worst I have ever had there in 32 years of hunting and 36 years of going there. My family has been going there for almost 50 years and none of them, father or mother, can remember a worse year than this. ODFW doesn’t seem to care about the dwindling numbers of wildlife in the surround area of the as I was told I wouldn’t understand.

We hunt along 21, which splits the Starkey and Ukiah units. Where we hunt and have hunted, the ODFW’s private elk reserve is about ½ mile from 21. You know the 12 foot high fence that goes for 40 square miles (plus they added some more later). The one they put in 20 years ago, lying to everyone that it would only be there no more than 10 years. My grandfather then told everyone at that meeting that they would never tear down that fence once it was put in, and he was right. They wanted to show us that they could manage wildlife better than how it has been, so the first year, they started with 600 elk. The next year, they had 1800 elk. Wow, simple math tells you that all 600 elk and twins and they all survived the winter and predators, but how did all these elk get pregnant if all of them had twins? This question was asked by my grandfather at a meeting, and when they found the error, they stated now that a few of the elk had triplets, so they do have bulls in the fence making the babies. Now it is getting private donations from people from out of the state to keep it operating.

When they started to see the elk population dwindle, they stated it is our hunting practices of killing the cows, so they eliminated cow season and the 1 elk tag, which should help and it probably did. Problem is, the elk and deer are very smart. The cougar, bear, and wolves are very smart also.

Over the last 30 plus years, I can recall just about every hunting season because this is my vacation time with my family. I can also tell you that since that fence was put up, after the first 3-5 years, you could really notice the decline in elk and deer in the areas. You see, around the fence, there is a ¼ mile no hunting buffer zone marked, which good hunters abide by. But, there are some that don’t, and the fence makes it very easy for poachers to take animals as the fence is clear all the way down it. They can’t go over or under it. The poachers know this and so do the predators.

This year, there were 4-5 animals killed inside the zone and even one killed on the fence on day 2 of the hunting season alone. 4 verified by gut piles verified inside the zone, one was told, but I couldn’t find the remains. The hunters that hunted by the rules got screwed as the poachers shot the hell out of the heard and pushed them out of the area, so they left before it escalated. I don’t know if they got the plates on the vehicles of the guys packing out the meat or not.

Last year, I saw around 40 elk during the 2nd hunt. I thought that was average as the group had a few bulls, just no spikes, oh well. This year, not one live elk from 4 out of 6 in the party was seen. The 2 who saw elk saw the same elk; 4 total, 1 bull and 3 cows. I saw a total of 11 deer, no bucks.

Back to the animals are smart. If elk and deer see a pattern where they see humans and shootings in an area and don’t see them for the most part in another, they will move there, it’s just natural to find a safe haven. I remember several times of finding elk in the woods and giving them a chase, only to have them go into the no hunting zone, stop, turn around and look at you. They are very smart. But you also have the predator being smart, and if you were a predator, you would move to where the food was. And to be helped by a fence to stop them from running in 3 directions down to just 2, would seem for a smart animal to make it easier for the kill and meal. When my daughter and I walk this fence line for exercise, you do see remains and bones up to 100 yards into the woods quite often, proving that predators have adapted to this as well, remember, they are smart. The problem is that we are not smart. The land further than ½ mile away is or has slowly lost its animals that use to freely graze and now has almost become barren without the normal life of the animals. ODFW’s animal report shows you that the population of the elk and deer relatively close to the fence is good. What they don’t tell you is the breakdown of distance they measure this by. The population within that ½ mile is high, but after that, it is very low. This is my belief; I do not have the numbers, just 36 years of field experience up there. This doesn’t even compare to their scientific ways of measuring from the ODFW as they have degree’s and “I couldn’t possibly understand the ways of how to manage wildlife without a degree” quoted an ^#$@ from the ODFW. I do understand that since the fence was put in, the number of elk and deer in the area have now become almost extinct outside the buffer zone. But he did state that once I got my bachelor’s degree in Biology, to call him so I could understand what he does at an equal level in language. I think he lost his silver spoon when he sat on it…

The ODFW says they are trying to put things back to nature by covering up roads that have been there for over 75 years, so they fill them in and lay a lot of debris on top of the fill to make it look natural. They also have placed many burms in the roads to keep you from driving into the areas. Some of this I can understand. But how is keeping a 40 square mile fence up in the middle of the natural migration path (as of 20 years ago) keeping it natural? The path has since moved a different way, about 6 miles east, so there are no migration animals coming in this area. When asked to see a list of the 25 people who get to hunt in the Starkey area by someone in a meeting, they said those were not for public view; ok, I guess. What have they got to hide? It just seems to me it is hypocritical for them to say they are putting things back to how it was, but leaving their personal zoo intact.

I would give up my hunting rights in that area and never hunt there again just to have that fence down and get the area back to a normal or “natural” way. If they want to have it back to natural, they can tear down the fence, and if any of their pets want to stick around to be fed, then they will. These animals should not be caged up, even though it is a big cage, it is still a cage. This cage enables poachers an easy path for success and there are far too few game wardens and state troopers to patrol it. I would hope that some of the guys with influence to the ODFW would give them a reality check.

And people wonder why noboby trust the word of the Goverment---they think were stupid, maybe we are for listening in the first place.

[GreenGateNomad]

Originally Posted by Blacktail Slayer

So we don't need science to manage wildlife. Yep I bet Utah and Arizona never use science. I think a lot of people need to learn more about wildlife and management. The anti's are gathering their science. If ODFW doesn't have science to show the F&W commission, public, and use for other political education; then the anti's will get their way. I think it is time people spend a little less time on the computer complaining about wildlife management and get a little more educated by doing some research into the matter.

I thought all of the sportsmen and women at the capitol hunter hearing along with all the hunting organizations asked the House Natural Resource Committee to use more science. Were you all not there? Do you not stand behind all the hunting organizations and hunters at the hearing? What is going on here???????????

Then tell me what is going on with the mule deer population in Oregon. Obviously they are just doing the experimental stuff for show and not for production!

[RiverMan]

Oregon also has too many hunters during many seasons............the elk are losing habitat, getting chased by predators, and there are too many hunters in the woods.

[Blacktail Slayer]

Originally Posted by GreenGateNomad

Then tell me what is going on with the mule deer population in Oregon. Obviously they are just doing the experimental stuff for show and not for production! ODFW needs to get their stuff together. I ain't gonna edit this post because I have seen, experienced too much grief with how the ODFW has handled our wildlife population. Example.....wolves......our elk are doomed!

[JDarr]

I've been hunting Ukiah my entire life (13 seasons) and I have to say I don't think there's a major problem with numbers. Last year our group of about 18 people of various abilities and ages took 11 bucks and dad just got back from his elk hunt this year and they took 4 bulls, 3 branched, and missed another couple and saw a lot more.
I love it there with everything in me, but I'd be more than willing to wait longer between tags if it kept Ukiah good.
JD

[lake creek charlie]

While i dont agree with the waste of taxpayer dollars in the starkey exp forest, They have ALWAYS had bulls in the fence. The first year, the separate enclosure around the intensive timber management area was cleared of branch bulls(spikes only). The rest of the enclosure was cleared of spikes(branch bulls only).Experiment about breeding.

[Blderman]

Originally Posted by Bait Bucket

Trust me. It hasn't worked in Heppner yet.

I have to disagree, Heppner had 400 more calves this year than the past 5 years. A guy in my hunting group spoke to a private property owner that had 17 cats removed from his property and he said there were 100 more elk on his property alone this year. I think it is making a dramatic difference, it's going to take some time though. I really hope Heppner can be a big buck unit again. When I started hunting I would go there during the summer just to drive around and see all the big bucks......I really want a place to take my kids and have them see the same thing.

[SILVERSINK]

Originally Posted by lake creek charlie

While i don't agree with the waste of taxpayer dollars in the Starkey exp forest, They have ALWAYS had bulls in the fence. The first year, the separate enclosure around the intensive timber management area was cleared of branch bulls(spikes only). The rest of the enclosure was cleared of spikes(branch bulls only).Experiment about breeding.

And the total result of this fiasco is---------not very good. I remember when the game guys brought those non factual pieces of paper for all in camps around the Starkey unit to sign. We argued with them then that it was a smokescreen saying it would last only 5 years and then the fence would be torn down and we could go back to any bull hunting--never happened--- never will. I've been hunting in that unit long enough(35yrs)to remember the road from Starkey store on was a mass of big rocks that would chew up anything but 10 ply tires (no asphalt like it is now), no road closers, lots of hunters and we could still see30 or 40 deer and hardly less than 50 Elk in a season. Those days are gone there and will be gone everywhere unless our political leaders can admit there decisions were wrong and start the process of reversing the bad decisions made over the past 20 years.
This is my last year hunting anything because it is a wast of time thinking I could go out and reasonably expect to harvest an Elk in the Unit of choice. I'm tired of funding studies that have no other impact for the hunter other than higher fees and lees game to go after.
I'm tired of making the reasoning that at least it was a good camping trip. I'm into harvesting an animal every once in a while.

[Rank Amateur]

Did a graph of the cougar age structure from ODF&W data. Combined 2001-2003 to smooth out the variables and provide the latest data.

[wapiteaser]

The Starkey Experimental site has produced some amazing data that goes towards management. How animals move when pressured. Effects of ATV's on animal habits. Effects of predators on animal movement and habits. You should be able to access the names of the hunters that draw tags for that unit. That is public information I believe. You should also be able to view all the information and projects that have taken place there and get information on upcoming work and how long the projected study is going to take place. The trouble with Oregon is too many hunters for the amount of public land available. Combine that with limited funding to all State Agencies and it is like any other business. I imagine that you have to make changes and cutbacks to live within your budget. A State agency can't go belly up and close. They have to keep on going with whatever they get. Most other states operate on a lot bigger budgets than Oregon and Washington I have heard. The reason Montana, Wyoming, Utah, and a couple other Western states are so nice is lack of population and more public land to hunt. Learn to live with it or take up golf are my thoughts. I have thought about just fishing.

[30aught6]

If they really want some interesting data, they should transplant into their elk compound some of them wolves that are running rampant over the Desolation Unit. Be intersting to see how productive their herd becomes.

The state should also look into Arizona's elk management program... requiring the taking of branch bulls. Folks that are running around taking rags and spikes might as well be shooting out at the dairy farm as them elk are as stupid as a moo-cow. Those little bulls in a few years will become branch bulls, thus enabling more mature bulls to improve the bull-cow ratio. It results in a more robust herd. Right now the bull to cow ratio is poor because people are allowed to take spikes and rags.

[ORsouthpaw]

[QUOTE=30aught6;2812377]Folks that are running around taking rags and spikes might as well be shooting out at the dairy farm as them elk are as stupid as a moo-cow.[QUOTE]

Are you talking about taking smaller elk inside the compound or just in general? I'm just curious because I've been to the dairy and I've hunted on spike only hunts (outside the experimental area) and have never found them to be close to the same thing.

[BarbDeep]

Most my time in the woods is spent in the ukiah unit. I see fewer and fewer deer each year. Granted my knoledge is limited as i dont have as many years of observation. From first hand experience this year seemed to be a much better year than most i have seen for elk.

there is also alot of private land that is fenced off (not 12 foot) for hunters not animals in the east part of the unit. and the elk know where those areas with less pressure are. which may or may not have somethign to do with the lack of game that has been seen. Talked to a camp of 7 spike tags that went 6 for 7. they are out there, maybe they are adapting and moving and hunters shoudl do the same.

Another thing just my own thought, is with more and more archery hunters elk are getting pressure earlier and could be moving out of usual rifle (1st and 2nd) season holding areas. just a thought.

Havin said that i hope we can see number across the board increase its a beautiful sport and has been part of my life since i was very young. I hope my kid will be able to say the smae thing.

[Rank Amateur]

Sorry I didn't explain this better. Age structure is determined by looking at a sliced tooth taken from cougars that are harvested, it basically is like looking at tree growth rings and the age of each individual cougar can be determined. What I have done is plot the number in each age class over the age. Basically this is a snap shot in time (3-years) of the age structure of the cougar population as taken by sportsmen. As you can see there are some cougars taken as 0's, my only assumption these are cougars that were sub-one year of age. I would make another assumption that why cougars less than one year of age and less than two year years of age don't have high peaks is that the young stay with the mother up to 2-years and thus a hunter that observes a mother and juveniles will most likely shoot the mother since she is bigger. Understand that the 0 and 1 age classes are most assuredly higher than is represented in the harvested cougar age structure plot. The bottom of the graph shows the age of the animals and the vertical axis shows the number of animals in each sample. I combined three years of data together to smooth out the variation between years of harvest.

I would feel pretty confident that the age structure we are looking at shows a population that is recruiting well. I would suspicion the major drop between 2 years of age and 3 years is due to the fact that this is the time period that the young leave the mother and strike out on their own. This most likely leads to mortality from male cougars on juvenile males and the juveniles expanding into vacant terrritory closer to man and thus higher man caused mortalities.

I have the pregnancy rates for the different ages, I will try to reconstruct an idea of recruitment into the population when I get time.

[young_gun]

this post makes me sick not gonna lie. The experimental forest has taught oregon biologists some amazing things about elk and the management of wildlife. All of you that bash it, i challenge you too take a day and drive there, speak with Marty Varva or any of the biologists there and ask them questions, ask to see what goes on and then you will see. They are not hurting your chances out there, they cut elk out of there everyyear and track their whereabouts, i killed a tagged bull 2 years ago.

As far as this place ruining everyones elk season, are you kidding me?? If you truley believe that the experimental enclosure is ruining your hunting....here is a great idea, HUNT AWAY FROM IT!, year after year i hear about people complaining how elk run to the buffer boundry and how they "Know" they are safe there...well if as stated and as occurs elk are killed inside that boundry all the time, its not very safe. This buffer is no different than a piece of private property.

"Ive hunted this place for 39 years and have never seen it so bad"....?? By "this place" are you reffering to the unit in general or too that same couple square miles you and uncle joe hunted in the 60's??....dont fall into a rut of hunting the same little places year after year and expect to kill big game year after year, thats completly iggnorant. Be mobile, find where they are and do your best to kill them.

Do not blame science, and an attempt to better manage wildlife for yourself and myself included, blame the predation issues...or better yet attack the issue yourself!

[gg2000]

Originally Posted by Blacktail Slayer

So we don't need science to manage wildlife. Yep I bet Utah and Arizona never use science. I think a lot of people need to learn more about wildlife and management. The anti's are gathering their science. If ODFW doesn't have science to show the F&W commission, public, and use for other political education; then the anti's will get their way. I think it is time people spend a little less time on the computer complaining about wildlife management and get a little more educated by doing some research into the matter.

I thought all of the sportsmen and women at the capitol hunter hearing along with all the hunting organizations asked the House Natural Resource Committee to use more science. Were you all not there? Do you not stand behind all the hunting organizations and hunters at the hearing? What is going on here???????????

AS far as I can see sence oregon started controlling areas for deer and elk hunting with west side and east side tags and then unit tags , the wildlife population has done nothing but decline. they are also so greedy for more tax dollars to fund there wages that you are seeing more and more new housing developments out in the middle of prime habitat. That is how it looks to me and what I have seen myself. Just look around the sun river Lapine area it's terrible.
george

[Blacktail Slayer]

Originally Posted by young_gun

this post makes me sick not gonna lie. The experimental forest has taught oregon biologists some amazing things about elk and the management of wildlife. All of you that bash it, i challenge you too take a day and drive there, speak with Marty Varva or any of the biologists there and ask them questions, ask to see what goes on and then you will see. They are not hurting your chances out there, they cut elk out of there everyyear and track their whereabouts, i killed a tagged bull 2 years ago.

As far as this place ruining everyones elk season, are you kidding me?? If you truley believe that the experimental enclosure is ruining your hunting....here is a great idea, HUNT AWAY FROM IT!, year after year i hear about people complaining how elk run to the buffer boundry and how they "Know" they are safe there...well if as stated and as occurs elk are killed inside that boundry all the time, its not very safe. This buffer is no different than a piece of private property.

"Ive hunted this place for 39 years and have never seen it so bad"....?? By "this place" are you reffering to the unit in general or too that same couple square miles you and uncle joe hunted in the 60's??....dont fall into a rut of hunting the same little places year after year and expect to kill big game year after year, thats completly iggnorant. Be mobile, find where they are and do your best to kill them.

Do not blame science, and an attempt to better manage wildlife for yourself and myself included, blame the predation issues...or better yet attack the issue yourself!

[baltz526]

Originally Posted by gg2000

AS far as I can see sence oregon started controlling areas for deer and elk hunting with west side and east side tags and then unit tags , the wildlife population has done nothing but decline. they are also so greedy for more tax dollars to fund there wages that you are seeing more and more new housing developments out in the middle of prime habitat. That is how it looks to me and what I have seen myself. Just look around the sun river Lapine area it's terrible.
george

Human population density will always effect larger wildlife negatively. Being a resident of central oregon, that has been here from 87 till today. Urban sprall destroys muledeer migration paths, combined with urban poachers whole herds are destroyed over time. Today the deer population in the upper deschutes unit is 20% of what it was in 87 is my guess. Elk numbers are also down about 50% from the peak, another guess. In rural eastern oregon during this same time, Ranches have been sold off to nonhunting rich escapes of the citys in california and elsewhere. The cougar population has exploded from voter passed insanity. ODFW started issuing cow tags by the thousand, Deer had a massive winter kill in 91 that killed 70% plus of the herds in a lot of the muledeer units of oregon. Put it all together with terrible winter range condition due to over grazing and bad state and federal land management practices. You end up where we are today. Some hunters that never saw the somewhat healthy populations of deer and elk we had in oregon in 1990, think they see a good number of game when they hunt away from the easy access areas. Once these pockets of game covered whole units, that area 5 miles from the trailhead that today has a few animals. In the past you would find populations of game around the trailhead, No need to hike the 5 miles before seeing a track. We hunters are a problem also, We are more worried about getting tags than having a healthy population to hunt. In a lot of oregon the only game animals at a healthy population are bears, with the only over population being cougars and humans.

[Blacktail Slayer]

Originally Posted by gg2000

AS far as I can see sence oregon started controlling areas for deer and elk hunting with west side and east side tags and then unit tags , the wildlife population has done nothing but decline. they are also so greedy for more tax dollars to fund there wages that you are seeing more and more new housing developments out in the middle of prime habitat. That is how it looks to me and what I have seen myself. Just look around the sun river Lapine area it's terrible.
george

You really think controlled hunting is the cause of declined deer and elk populations I hope you don't think ODFW biologist make a ton of money. It is more about the love of the job than money. You might want to talk with some biologist before assuming things.

[SILVERSINK]

Originally Posted by young_gun

this post makes me sick not gonna lie. The experimental forest has taught oregon biologists some amazing things about elk and the management of wildlife. All of you that bash it, i challenge you too take a day and drive there, speak with Marty Varva or any of the biologists there and ask them questions, ask to see what goes on and then you will see. They are not hurting your chances out there, they cut elk out of there everyyear and track their whereabouts, i killed a tagged bull 2 years ago.

As far as this place ruining everyones elk season, are you kidding me?? If you truley believe that the experimental enclosure is ruining your hunting....here is a great idea, HUNT AWAY FROM IT!, year after year i hear about people complaining how elk run to the buffer boundry and how they "Know" they are safe there...well if as stated and as occurs elk are killed inside that boundry all the time, its not very safe. This buffer is no different than a piece of private property.

"Ive hunted this place for 39 years and have never seen it so bad"....?? By "this place" are you referring to the unit in general or too that same couple square miles you and uncle joe hunted in the 60's??....don't fall into a rut of hunting the same little places year after year and expect to kill big game year after year, thats completly iggnorant. Be mobile, find where they are and do your best to kill them.

Do not blame science, and an attempt to better manage wildlife for yourself and myself included, blame the predation issues...or better yet attack the issue yourself!

Wow take your blinders off. They lied to the hunting population when this thing started and they aren't telling the whole truth now. The Starkey unit first season was like a ghost town. In an area that usually has had 30 camps there were 3. The 27 that wasn't there were a lot smarter that I was because I was hoping 20 years of experimental habitat study would do some good (outside the fence). I was wrong and not going back to that area.
you don't think they are money hungy huh,look at the tag sales compared to the game taken and compare this over the last 50 years and you will see the problem. They are in the bussiness of selling tags and licences not doing whats good for the wildlife as far as I can see.
Darral C.

[Black Bear]

[QUOTE=ORsouthpaw;2812447][QUOTE=30aught6;2812377]Folks that are running around taking rags and spikes might as well be shooting out at the dairy farm as them elk are as stupid as a moo-cow.

Are you talking about taking smaller elk inside the compound or just in general? I'm just curious because I've been to the dairy and I've hunted on spike only hunts (outside the experimental area) and have never found them to be close to the same thing.

I am with you on this one...Spikes have no chance at all! out of 10 spikes, 1 may survive. If they closed spikes 6 out of 10 would make it through, horrible managment. I have heard from so many people how bad it is in eastern oregon, I was there hunting for 5 weeks and heard this from 95 percent of the hunters there.

[Black Bear]

Originally Posted by baltz526

Human population density will always effect larger wildlife negatively. Being a resident of central oregon, that has been here from 87 till today. Urban sprall destroys muledeer migration paths, combined with urban poachers whole herds are destroyed over time. Today the deer population in the upper deschutes unit is 20% of what it was in 87 is my guess. Elk numbers are also down about 50% from the peak, another guess. In rural eastern oregon during this same time, Ranches have been sold off to nonhunting rich escapes of the citys in california and elsewhere. The cougar population has exploded from voter passed insanity. ODFW started issuing cow tags by the thousand, Deer had a massive winter kill in 91 that killed 70% plus of the herds in a lot of the muledeer units of oregon. Put it all together with terrible winter range condition due to over grazing and bad state and federal land management practices. You end up where we are today. Some hunters that never saw the somewhat healthy populations of deer and elk we had in oregon in 1990, think they see a good number of game when they hunt away from the easy access areas. Once these pockets of game covered whole units, that area 5 miles from the trailhead that today has a few animals. In the past you would find populations of game around the trailhead, No need to hike the 5 miles before seeing a track. We hunters are a problem also, We are more worried about getting tags than having a healthy population to hunt. In a lot of oregon the only game animals at a healthy population are bears, with the only over population being cougars and humans.

I agree cut all tag numbers in half,they can apply for stimulus money to make up for the revenue loss..

[jessmessner]

We have to start from the top. We get to elect a new governor in 2010. There is very little argument that our game population is being mismanaged. We need to get a governor that is on our side. We have been dominated by these guys who are bending over backward to accomodate the other side.
Our government in Oregon is bursting at the seams. ODFW is so heavily burdened by the volume of regulations and bureaucratic influence that it can't possibly be unbiased. If you called the people at ODFW and ask them for a comment about over predation they are advised not to say anything as it is political. Now if you asked them about the success of the cougar rebound would they respond?
I believe that the people at ODFW got in there to do good things. There are many bright people that work there. One serious problem is that they have to go to college first where they are pounded with biased info until they actually believe the information they are being fed. Not all the educators are bad I know but look where they are putting their money. 90% or more to the anti hunting side of the argument.
By March all the folks running for governor will be out there. If this matters to you we need to help push a particular candidate. If we help influence this election we will be heard. We have not been heard in years and look where it has gotten us.
The established hunting groups need to throw their influence around. In the past only a few have really taken a stand. We will win some and we will lose some. Look at the NRA. They have a backbone. It is right or wrong with them, no gray area.
The other side has not waivered on their stance. We have accomadated them to no end. We are losing.
The predation issue is the ultimate tester of the wind direction. The predator population is exploding wiping out our game animals. The other side must be grinning from ear to ear. If this continues, Big Wildlife has announced that they are going to push to end cougar hunting altogether, there will be insufficient deer, elk, antelope, sheep and beaver populations to have a real hunting season. If you can not see this coming you are not paying attention.
The ultimate goal is to strip us law abiding, tax paying, environment loving citizens of our second ammendment rights.

Where I stand, if you are not actively with us then you are against us.

[TheRogue]

Wow, the black helicopters are sure hovering over this thread.

Are there really that many of you that think the government is truly out to get you?

This is pretty sad.

TR

[Two Fister]

Originally Posted by Blacktail Slayer

So we don't need science to manage wildlife. Yep I bet Utah and Arizona never use science. I think a lot of people need to learn more about wildlife and management. The anti's are gathering their science. If ODFW doesn't have science to show the F&W commission, public, and use for other political education; then the anti's will get their way. I think it is time people spend a little less time on the computer complaining about wildlife management and get a little more educated by doing some research into the matter.

I thought all of the sportsmen and women at the capitol hunter hearing along with all the hunting organizations asked the House Natural Resource Committee to use more science. Were you all not there? Do you not stand behind all the hunting organizations and hunters at the hearing? What is going on here???????????

Blacktail Slayer,
I'm confused. Are you saying that ODFW is using science to make their decisions? I'd have to disagree with that. IMHO, ODFW is using money to drive their decision making process. They are trying to fund their programs as they are one of the only state programs that is primarily funded by revenue they generate. I think it is a terrible approach to the management of fish and wildlife as it encourages them to make decisions based on funding rather than what's best for fish and wildlife. I think if you look at the root of the questionable decisions that we have all seen ODFW make you will find a dollar sign, not science.

I've never hunted Ukiah, but after my experience in Murders Creek this season I can see why having a fence that could be utilized by less than ethical hunters would be a problem. A really short season puts intense pressure on people that have shaky moral fiber to start with. During the controlled buck hunt in the Paulina unit it usually takes about a week before guys start violating the green dot (closed by a sign, but not gate) road closures. During the elk season in Murders Creek they were violating closures before shooting light on the first morning and they didn't stop.

Sorry to hear that you had a bad experience 57chevy. Seems to be a lot of that going around.
TF

[jessmessner]

Originally Posted by TheRogue

Wow, the black helicopters are sure hovering over this thread.

Are there really that many of you that think the government is truly out to get you?

This is pretty sad.

TR

No black helicopters. I just want to be responsible for myself and my family.
TheRogue, Do you think that the decisions being made are not political? When measure 18 passed was there biologists out there saying this is best for our state? No, there were videos of people breaking current laws and displaying extremely non ethical behavior. There was no science involved.
Yes I do believe that our second ammendment rights are threatened. Look at California, Schwartnager just signed a bill that puts numbers on ammo. Please look into how often numbers on guns help us solve crimes... Will numbers on ammo do anything but enable a higher price?

[posum]

I have also hunted around this area for the last 20 years. I am a little confused as how the fence and 1/4 mile buffer zone in the Starkey unit affect your hunting across the road in the Ukiah unit. It's sad that there are always a few who will sneak into the buffer zone to try and get an elk, but they do try and patrol it. I do agree that the animals are getting harder to find in this area. The elk defiantly use the 1/4 mile buffer zone to travel through, but they used this back when the hunting was good. What I've seen effect the hunting more in this area is the thinning of most all the bedding areas and travel routes by the USFS. If there are no areas for the elk to feel safe in they will find other areas that will. The private lands surrounding this area have all changed ownership in the last few years and how they hunt it effects how those elk move back and forth. If you want to see elk, just get to a high spot and look on the private property. You will have no problem finding elk! The elk in that area all know where it is and that they're safer there. Also logging on the private lands adjacent to the area have also changed the travel routes for the elk to use. I have also seen and heard of certain tactics being used to try and keep the elk on the private land. All of these issues will affect the animals in this and surrounding areas. It’s sad, this used to be a very good area but with all the changes we will have to change also, so we will be trying to look elsewhere for animals.

[Two Fister]

Originally Posted by baltz526

Human population density will always effect larger wildlife negatively. Being a resident of central oregon, that has been here from 87 till today. Urban sprall destroys muledeer migration paths, combined with urban poachers whole herds are destroyed over time. Today the deer population in the upper deschutes unit is 20% of what it was in 87 is my guess. Elk numbers are also down about 50% from the peak, another guess. In rural eastern oregon during this same time, Ranches have been sold off to nonhunting rich escapes of the citys in california and elsewhere. The cougar population has exploded from voter passed insanity. ODFW started issuing cow tags by the thousand, Deer had a massive winter kill in 91 that killed 70% plus of the herds in a lot of the muledeer units of oregon. Put it all together with terrible winter range condition due to over grazing and bad state and federal land management practices. You end up where we are today. Some hunters that never saw the somewhat healthy populations of deer and elk we had in oregon in 1990, think they see a good number of game when they hunt away from the easy access areas. Once these pockets of game covered whole units, that area 5 miles from the trailhead that today has a few animals. In the past you would find populations of game around the trailhead, No need to hike the 5 miles before seeing a track. We hunters are a problem also, We are more worried about getting tags than having a healthy population to hunt. In a lot of oregon the only game animals at a healthy population are bears, with the only over population being cougars and humans.

This is the best explanation of what has happened to hunting on the eastside of the state I've read on ifish.

I bolded the part about the ranches being sold as this has a much larger impact than most realize. 20 years ago ranchers/farmers did everything they could to chase elk off of their land. Now ranches are installing wallows, forage crops, and wildlife habitat. While this may (or may not) be good for elk, it does tend to keep them on private property throughout the year.

The last time I hunted the White River unit about 7 years ago the actual farmers/ranchers were complaining bitterly about all of the hobby farms around them installing this type of infrastructure to purposefully keep the elk on their property. The elk were not heading into the high country as there were places where they could wallow, forage, and enjoy sprinkler lines as they pleased on the hobby ranches. The actual farmers/ranchers were getting their crops destroyed by herds that never left the area like they should. Once hunting season rolled around the elk would get pushed off of the hobby ranches once a few LOP tags got filled. One local rancher I spoke with that year counted 15 branch antler bulls on one ranch that was less than 1,000 acres the day before the opener.

In Murders Creek this year, the hillsides on the Gander Ranch looked like they were moving with elk. There were ranch hands on ATVs and trucks patrolling the fence lines. I think the Gander was a working ranch the last time I hunted the unit. While they may raise cattle, it has all of the earmarks of a hobby ranch now. The elk sure looked comfortable on the ranch.

The saddest part is that hobby ranches get a tax break for installing forage crops and wildlife habitat. While it may be good for wildlife in some instances, it essentially allows large herds of Oregon big game to be controlled by a very small number of wealthy landowners. This was further exacerbated when the Oregon Legislature granted that fee hunting was an "agricultural product" that qualified for an agricultural tax deferral. All a property in Oregon has to do to keep their ag deferral is to allow fee hunting. This small, quiet ruling about 15 years ago (if memory serves) closed more private land and encouraged the development of more hunting ranches than any other single action we have seen.

I'll bet that there is something similar near the Ukiah unit that is sucking up herds of Oregon big game.

TF

[Ghost hunter]

Originally Posted by BarbDeep

Another thing just my own thought, is with more and more archery hunters elk are getting pressure earlier and could be moving out of usual rifle (1st and 2nd) season holding areas. just a thought.

This is one thing that needs to get under control, archers can shoot any elk and get a whole month to do it in. It’ becoming to were rifle hunters are getting penalized to such an extent………

I seen the same thing in the Starkey unit as the other poster, the place was a ghost town, what camps were there first season most of them had left by Sunday.

[TheRogue]

Originally Posted by Ghost hunter

This is one thing that needs to get under control, archers can shoot any elk and get a whole month to do it in. It’ becoming to were rifle hunters are getting penalized to such an extent………

Uh-oh, here we go.......

[gweedo#1]

Originally Posted by Ghost hunter

This is one thing that needs to get under control, archers can shoot any elk and get a whole month to do it in. It’ becoming to were rifle hunters are getting penalized to such an extent………

I seen the same thing in the Starkey unit as the other poster, the place was a ghost town, what camps were there first season most of them had left by Sunday.

I think "SOME" rifle hunters need to get out of their vehicles and beat the brush a little....

[young_gun]

Originally Posted by SILVERSINK

Wow take your blinders off. They lied to the hunting population when this thing started and they aren't telling the whole truth now. The Starkey unit first season was like a ghost town. In an area that usually has had 30 camps there were 3. The 27 that wasn't there were a lot smarter that I was because I was hoping 20 years of experimental habitat study would do some good (outside the fence). I was wrong and not going back to that area.
you don't think they are money hungy huh,look at the tag sales compared to the game taken and compare this over the last 50 years and you will see the problem. They are in the bussiness of selling tags and licences not doing whats good for the wildlife as far as I can see.
Darral C.

Darrel-
..............so really in all honesty here your trying to tell me the the starkey expiremental forest is this so called "AREA 51" that hides secrets and steals you tax dollars and tag sale money?? i also think you are under the impression that these employees and personel of ODFW are getting rich off of you...that is 100% completely asinine to put it in the most respectful terms possible. They are biologists not for the money (which is not a great deal), but for the love of what they do. They are after the protection, management and successes of fisheries and wildlife. They are not lying to you about anything, the vast success or the studies prompted more research to be done. Which was voted on, did you vote??????

How you can sit there and say that this has caused all these people to stop hunting there is beyond me, i hunted that unit first season and didnt see a bit decline, i would bet i spend more than 100 solid days a year in that unit....and do yourself a favor, call 541 963 2138 asked to speak to the head biologist or even his assistant mr caldwell and ask them about tag sales for the spike hunt, or ask them about the apllicants for the bull tag, ill tell you one thing they sure didnt go down.

The expiremental forest is not a project only associated with oregon, funding, donations, and specialists from canada, washington, montana, idaho and even nevada are all present in the ordeal. Ever even taken a look at some of the completed research findings?? might i suggest you take a look, and then you will discover why your seeing less camps where your at.

[Ghost hunter]

Originally Posted by gweedo#1

I think "SOME" rifle hunters need to get out of their vehicles and beat the brush a little....

I didn't think i was threating archers. But us rifle hunters have bent over backwards on our seasons and take, now its time for the archers to do the same.

[Klamanite]

Originally Posted by Ghost hunter

I didn't think i was threating archers. But us rifle hunters have bent over backwards on our seasons and take, now its time for the archers to do the same.

Simply put, it's because the rifle hunters take the lion's share of the game. There may be a marked increase in archers but the success rates still show the rifle guys and gals with the highest numbers of animals taken and coincidentally the highest success rates as well. Fair needs to be adressed as balanced in terms of hunter groups, animals harvested and success ratios with regards to the species being hunted and specific units. Fair does not mean archers should go to a draw or shorten their seasons "just because the rifle guys did". I would support it if there was evidence to show otherwise, but so far...... nunyet