Sucker fish - kill them or leave them?

[Cosmic Lazy Susan]

I just started fishing from the bank for steelhead this year.

One thing that I've observed is folks catching a large scale sucker fish, clubbing it and leaving it on the bank.

When I asked them about this they said that suckers eat steelhead eggs and that is why they should be killed.

Doing a very small amount of internet searching I found another bit that said sucker larve (fry?) are heavily preyed upon by steelhead smolts. That would seem to be a good thing for steelhead.

What's the scoop? Benefit or menace?

Thanks,
Dale

[River Ranger]

I'm pretty sure they are native but am unaware of weather or not they do harm to spawning grounds or not,I would assume they would eat salmon and steelhead eggs.I would think they would have an important role as the rivers vacume cleaner.
RR.

[FOSH]

Susan--
I doubt suckers pick up more than the loose surface eggs that are destined for nonsurvival anyway. They do feed on many of the same larvae that trout do but once again, I doubt they're significant competitors. I vote they be returned to the water!
(I have relatives in the southern midwest who would vote that they be returned to the frying pan, but I haven't been able to try that. Yet!)

[rob allen]

either keep them to eat or release them unharmed, THATS THE LAW! and the only ethical course of action

[Gun Rod Bow]

IMO,

You need to be very cautious about what you call a "Sucker Fish". Squawfish are major predators of salmon and steelhead smolts and if ODFW pays a bounty for their little heads...well use your judgement. You may be able to guess mine.

Pea Nosed Chubs I understand are actually predators of Squaw Fish and should be returned to the river.

I saw a guy on a cold Washington trib of the Columbia a few years back catching and throwing Whitefish up on the bank. I asked him why and he said they were "suckers". I explained they were not and were actually game fish and he was making a big mistake and showed him the difference.

[FISHFINDER]

The suckers that Dale is talking about are not squaw fish or pea-mouths, They are the ones that migrate out of the Columba and up the tribs in the spring. It has always been a nuisance about a month after they arrive and lay on the bank rotten. I never have understood why they are killed and thrown on the bank. I know that the numbers that are killed aren't putting a dent in the population even if there is a problem with them. Leave the poor things alone, they and the steelhead have existed forever together. I'm sure mother nature put them here for a reason. If you must kill them, throw them in the water so they don't lay on the bank and stink.

FF

[Cosmic Lazy Susan]

Thanks Dave, I got to wondering if killing them was some old time tradition around here. The guy I saw do it and talked to was an old timer in the area.

I also talked with another guy that was fishing for them on purpose but he was doing it for food.

Dale

[steelhead22]

I've "heard" they are a non-native species, if you're talking about the brown and orange colored one that have the occasional black stripe on the side? A sucker about the diameter of you thumb? They kinda look like carp but more slender with smaller scales?

I throw them back. Until I find out that I should do otherwise, why kill them? Like someone said earlier, even if we ALL kill every one we catch in a year, it probably won't even put a dent in the population. The only thing controlling these things is food availability as far as I can tell.

[Cosmic Lazy Susan]

These are big things. 18-24" long and big around as my forearm. They are actually listed as 'Large Scale Sucker' fish.

Dale

[steelhead22]

Where are they listed and do you have any more info? I've been wondering about these things for awhile, guess it's time I learn a little about them.

[Cosmic Lazy Susan]

Here is some info I found on them.
Large Scale Sucker
There is a lot more out there if you google "large Scale Sucker".

I had found an Idaho site on them once with pictures and other info but I can't seem to locate it again.

Dale

[steelhead22]

Thanks for the info, that sounds like them. I was having trouble finding any on the web.

[sunshinefisherman]

Suckers are actually mullet and are a non-native invasive species.
My feeling is that you should kill them and throw them back in the river for other fish to eat.

[steelhead22]

I'll kill them too if they are, in fact, non-native invasive species. But, only if you can produce some reputable sources for your information.

[STGRule]

You are very incorrect. Largescale (and all suckers for that matter) ARE native. They are here for a reason and they and salmonids co-evolved in their river systems for thousands of years. Leave them in the water (alive)where they belong.

[Fish Jihad]

I see no point in killing them. It isn't going to put much of a dent in their population even if they are bad. It also makes fishermen look bad when there is a sucker suffocating in the middle of a park. I was at lower McIver park and someone had thrown one in the middle of the disc golf course. I bet that at least 50-60 people passed that thing-they never die do they? Just be smart if you're going to give 'em a toss.

[steelbiten]

If your not going to eat it or get paid for it, then put it back. That's what I teach my boys.

[Fish Mode]

Ok, I looked up some pictures and the only ones I find are those of squawfish. Anybody here generous enough to lend a hand in those websites with quality pics? Sure don't want to the wrong fish!

[rimrock]

See Link below or I copied the text.

Largescale Sucker (Catastomus macrocheilus)
LOCATION: Largescale sucker distribution is limited to the Deschutes River from Steelhead Falls to Lake Billy Chinook.

SIZE: Maximum length is 24"; weight can be 7 pounds; age can get to 8+ years.

SPAWNING: They spawn in the spring, usually in deeper sandy areas of streams, but at times on gravel or sand shoals in lakes. Spawning takes place from late April to late June depending on stream temperatures. A female may deposit as many as 20,000 eggs, which are adhesive. Eggs hatch in about 2 weeks and the fry remain in the gravel or on the surface of the sand for the first few weeks. The young are pelagic until they reach about 3-4 inches.

HABITAT REQUIREMENTS: As they grow, they move toward the bottom and into deeper water. Adults are usually found at depths of only a few feet, but have been taken as deep as 80 feet. Food composition varies with size of individual, time and habitat, but adults feed almost exclusively on bottom invertebrates such as ostracods, amphipods, Trichoptera, Chironomidae, and mollusks. However, they will eat fish eggs, diatoms, algae, and detritus when available. They compete directly with trout species, and probably also prey upon their eggs.

REPRODUCTION:

IN CENTRAL OREGON: They may play a more important role in trout management because of competition for food and their greater biomass.

REFERENCES: Upper Deschutes River Subbasin Fish Management Plan, Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife, Upper Deschutes Fish District, October 1996.

Link: Largescale Sucker

[Redneck]

most people don't know the difference between a squaw fish (pikeminnow) and a sucker. Squawfish are the bad ones that prey on salmon and steelhead smolts. Suckers are good fish that don't bother the smolts. All they do is suck food off the bottom like sturgeon, thats why their mouths point down. Kind of hard to chase and eat a smolt when your mouth is tiny and points down. Sure, they probably eat a few salmon/steelhead eggs but what fish in a river doesn't. Suckers are a sign of a healthy watershed and should be released unharmed.

Don't be one of the dumb fisherman that kills everything that swims. Some people get PO'd because it wasn't a salmon or steelhead they hooked so they kill it . Learn to tell them apart and kill only the squaw fish.
Redneck

[STGRule]

And may I add that you also shouldn't be killing pikeminnow anyplace but in the Columbia River. And you wouldn't even have to do that if it wasn't cheaper to have you all kill them than it would be to fix the expensive problems caused by the dams. Pikeminnow also co-evolved with salmonids. These things all have their place in our world. And as far as I am concerned (i.e., my personal opinion) making another specie pay for our stupidity only reflects badly on our intelligence as another specie that inhabits planet Earth.

[hunt2much]

What we should be killing is smallmouth bass, walleye, Caspian terns, Cormarants, sea lions, and high sea drift netters, and a few, maybe 50-75%, of squaw fish...excuse me,... northern pike mouth minnows! why we let ODFW manage for quality bass and walleye is beyond me..Oh yeah i know why!!! $$$$ dollars!!! these fish..as much as i am a hippacrit, and love to catch em and eat the occasional walleye, need to be irradicated! I'll give up catching them to catch more salmon, steelhead and trout!

my 2- cents!

[weekender]

And may I add that you also shouldn't be killing pikeminnow anyplace but in the Columbia River. And you wouldn't even have to do that if it wasn't cheaper to have you all kill them than it would be to fix the expensive problems caused by the dams. Pikeminnow also co-evolved with salmonids. These things all have their place in our world. And as far as I am concerned (i.e., my personal opinion) making another specie pay for our stupidity only reflects badly on our intelligence as another specie that inhabits planet Earth.

WHOA - I catch alot of pike minnows out of the Santiam. You suport releasing these fish unharmed?

Does anyone second that opinion?

[hunt2much]

the only people i know who release squawfish is the people who bounty fish them..and thats when theyre less than 9"..with hopes they will get a little bigger to be worth 4-7 $

I crush and kill everyone of those things i catch!

Even though i crush and kill everyone i catch, I know because of the enviroment we created for those fish, they will always be here.. they are native and do have a right to share the waters with salmonids, but their numbers are way out of whack! and i just do my part in keeping them in balance!!!

[rob allen]

I think we should kill all hatchery fish and leave them on the bank they do as much damage to the runs as any other species...

If you are not going to eat it you shouldn't kill it..

If you think smallmouth and walley are a problem then put down your steelhead rod and go catch a few they are good eating.

[hunt2much]

And may I add that you also shouldn't be killing pikeminnow anyplace but in the Columbia River.

Actually they are not pike minnows... They are Northern Pike-mouth Minnows!!Hahahaha... who cares... they're squawfish! PC this.. PC that!! Blah Blah blah

[hunt2much]

I think we should kill all hatchery fish and leave them on the bank they do as much damage to the runs as any other species...

Oh please elabarate!!! oh wise one.. tell me how they damage wild runs??? Lets hear some of your politacal propaganda that you learned from trout unlimited and the oregonian.. i'd love to hear your thoughts!!!

[Dip]

Actually they are not pike minnows... They are Northern Pike-mouth Minnows!!Hahahaha... who cares... they're squawfish! PC this.. PC that!! Blah Blah blah

actually i prefer Ptychocheilus grandis as a more formal name!!!!

[Wreckless]

I've never understood individual humans "managing" fish. They pretty much manage themselves. Throwing away a "trash fish" because you think it's a good thing is........not smart. I'm not a bioligist, I won't kill because it's "good" for another species. Like it or not (the jury is still out for me) the Bass and Walleye are here to stay (my wife released a 27" hen Sunday )

A bioligist can correct me on this if they want, but I believe I've read that the local native trout feed on the sucker eggs during the suckers spring spawn. Don't kill a fish because you THINK it's bad, it might not be.

As for the TONS of Santiam squa..err I mean Pikeminnow.... crab bait & I don't mean the mod!!

[STGRule]

Yes, leave them alone. The only place their numbers are "out of whack" is in the pools caused by the dams. In free running water they ARE NOT a problem. This is where they have lived right next to salmonids for thousands of years. It's where they belong. They don't hardly occupy the same spatial area that salmonid smolt do. Do they eat some? Sure, along with everything else that is higher up the food chain. That's why salmonids evolved to have as many egg, fry, and smolts as they do. They are MEANT to be a prey base. Simple biology. In which I have trained and worked for the past 20 years.

[OdieWon]

STGRule has it right! Read the info on the web about the Large Scale Suckers. They eat plankton and other organisms and serve as food for bald eagles, otters and other wildlife. They are definitely a native species that is part of the food chain. However, due to their feeding habits, it sounds like one should not be eating them due to possibility of high contaminate levels.
Leave them alive and return them to the water unharmed. Just because most of us would not lose a lot of sleep if a seal lion succumbs, we can't just become 'killers' of everything we don't find appealing or that we don't understand. Where are the 'sportsmen' of ifish? :whazzup: If you're not gonna eat it...don't kill it!

[weekender]

If your going to convince myself and a number of the other individuals that frequent the Santiam’s that the Pikeminnow population is not "out of wack", then you've got a tall hill to climb.

I suggest you hook up the boat and hit the main stem of the Santiam for a little population sample. I think you'll be surprised at what you find...

[STGRule]

I guessing that you mean there are a lot of them there. There has always been a lot of them there. Pikeminnow are part of the prey base too.

[sparkleboy]

actually i prefer Ptychocheilus grandis as a more formal name!!!!

Actually, it's Ptychocheilus oregonensis.

[sparkleboy]

Weekender,
Santiam system pikeminnow are booming because of the massive amounts of hatchery salmon and steelhead juveniles released.
If you take away the artificial hatchery fish, pikeminnow populations will decrease.

[stlhdr1]

Sad to see protection of the pikeminnows....

Keith

[choppers]

if you kill it you should eat it.

[Uncle Milty]

I think that this is an excellent post. I, too, have wondered about the knee-jerk reaction to kill these fish. I AM (originally) a biologist, by training and degree, and am inclined to believe that if they are a native species, they probably shouldn't be killed for no reason other than they are annoying. Good discussion.

-Milty

[itbescotty]

I've caught many a suckers while steelheading. I've been told by Fish and Game that the suckers, unlike the squaw fish, are not a threat to the steelhead. The first year on the Hood, we left many on the bank to die. First of all that's cruel so I wouldn't do that anymore, but the next weekend, the stench was not desirable to be fishing around. I don't know what the truth is, but in some places I don't think we'd put a dent in them anyhow. If you snuff them, I recommend putting them back in the water so you and everyone else will enjoy the fishing on the following sunny days.

[Jooky]

Kill them all

[Jennie@ifish]

I'm going to get laughed at, but... I don't care. I'll just laugh with you.

This "kill 'em all" attitude seems ignorant to me.

From seals to anything that you don't like... the growing attitude seems to be "Get rid of 'em! Kill 'em!"

From historical lessons, we find that our management of wildife has been error laden and has caused much destruction.

Please! There is still a bit of a balance here on earth. Can we resist screwing it up further? We have made terrible mistakes that have caused so much imbalance! When are we going to realize that and begin to heal the wounds?

It's not a manly thing to kill a sea lion. It's not a manly thing to throw a sucker on the side of the road, or in the road to watch cars run over it. It's a naughty little kid thing. Shouldn't we grow up?

In my opinion, it's wimpy.

I'm really sorry to vent, but doing these things remind me of the fact that small children being cruel to wild life grow up to be violent offenders.

What happened to going fishing and ENJOYING ALL of our surroundings? What happened to enjoying our out of doors and realizing that each and every species has a relationship with one another? What happened to the wonder and the amazement of watching and enjoying each living and breathing species?

I certainly don't know the answer in bringing balance to our earth... but I am pretty sure that taking the lives of anything living or breathing for the sake of "cleaning up" or because they are catching more salmon than we are, isn't the answer.

Rant over.... now... off for a walk on the river. There are cormorant out there. Mebbe I shuld take my gun and blast em!



Jen

[Blackjaw]

Check out the picture of the Longnose Sucker on this website. http://www.kidfish.bc.ca/fish/info_sucker.htm

Is this the fish we are talking about? It looks similar to a species I see thrown on the bank here in the Puget Sound region.

If so, it appears to be native and should therefore, in my opinion, be released unharmed.

[Cosmic Lazy Susan]

Here is a good picture of one and some info.

Largescale Sucker

I'm going to leave them alone. They are native and part of the food chain.

Thanks for the discussion,
Dale

[hunt2much]

There is still a bit of a balance here on earth.

How can you say there is a balance... I have yet to see hardly any balance in anything... from suckers, to squawfish, to deer, to elk, to himalayin blackberries, to reed canary grass, to bull frogs, to western pond turtles, to sea lions, to cormarants, to sea gulls, to caspian terns, to coyotes, to bears, to Mt. lions, to whitetailed deer back east, to urban growth....... oh yeah and my personal finance ...Jen, Where do you see balance??? :whazzup: :whazzup:

Cause i dont see any..

People keep talking about predator vs. prey...But the problem is we have in most species an abnormally high amount of predators... granted most of them are in one way or another directly influenced by humans. but we do need to "help" keep some things in balance. I'm not saying that all these species need to be irraticated. but they definatly do need their numbers reduced. and the best scientific data shows that lethal forms of control are the easiest, most humaine, and the most cost effective way to control these animals. People have tried to nuter (sp?) deer and transplant bears and sealions to no end and they never work.. they just return and or continue to breed. I have personally watched hundreds of large scale suckers swim out of the columbia and in to my home creek and sit and devour coho, tule and URB eggs to no end. even though these species are native, we have created, through dams, a most hospitable enviroment for them to over populate.. Thats why i say kill those critters when you catch them...but please do throw them in the river. they will breakdown and provide food for everything in the system.

And i stand firmly behind the fact that the non-native warm water species need to be irradicated.. and i'm smart enough to know that it will never happen, but a guy can dream...right?

...end rant!

[sparkleboy]

There are two reasons why there is such a high 'predator abudance.'
Predators typically have a lag time in their population booms as compared to prey population booms. The time of the lag depends on the species. Smaller organisms, such as rodents and insects make up the lag time very quickly. Large mammals including ungulates have a longer lag time.
Secondly, in order for large predator population sizes, large prey population sizes must of occurred at some point. In the case of northern pikeminnow, an artificial enviornment providing more space for them to live, and an artificial food source in hatchery salmonid juveniles, have caused their populations to dramatically increase. Their population is not out of balance, it's adjusting to the avaliable food sources! That's a basic biological process every organism on this earth follows.

And as posted before, large scale suckers do not prey upon salmonid eggs. They are a herbivore species, and tend to eat mostly algae.

[hunt2much]

And as posted before, large scale suckers do not prey upon salmonid eggs. They are a herbivore species, and tend to eat mostly algae.

Come over to my house this fall and i'll show you all the large scale suckers you want.. sitting on redds! eating unfertilzed and fertilzed eggs! ive caught em, cut em open to see! the do eat salmon eggs... take your book and start a good hot fire with it.. i'm telling you what i have seen and done with my own two hands.. not out of a text book!

and as for the " over abundance of hatchery salmonids... what do you think the sqauw fish are gonna eat if hatcheries just stopped all together.. your non exisistant wild fish.. what little might actually be left would be gobbled up in a year to 4. yes then your predators will go down..but there will be no more salmonids of any type hatchery or wild. then what?

[Premo]

They bite eggs too!! The sucker was released unharmed :grin:



squaw

sucker :grin:

[hunt2much]

actually that top pic looks more like a squaw fish to me??? ..but yes we catch them, suckers and squawfish both, driftfishing eggs on the clack all the time!

[Chinookjinxd]

Dont kill the suckers there ugly and fun to kill and use for sturgeon bait but yes DIE SQUAWFISH !!!