Threatened for... what? :)

[Jennie@ifish]

I just wanted folks to know that I, Jennie Logsdon Martin, am a confirmed salmon hugger. (just like Freespool!) :smile:
I love salmon, the rivers, the streams, and the forest, as much as life itself. It makes up my life!
I care about them so much, that I started ifish.net.
I had no idea that ifish.net would turn into what it has, but it did.
I believe that is because of my love for fishes! :smile:
The mentor that urged me to begin this whole web thing told me while teaching me to create web sites, "pick something that you love with all of your heart" and it will be a success.
I chose fish. I chose rivers. I chose the outdoors. I chose life on the Kilchis river.

I am in support of the Tillamook 50/50 proposal. It's not a secret of mine, but I have chosen not to go on and on about it, due to hard feelings that have spread across Oregon regarding this very sensitive issue.
I try not to really talk about it, as I have seen it divide many groups and many friends.
However, I believe this to be the most fishing related political issue before us, in the current election.
Whether you are for it or against it, regardless, you will remain my friend. There are bigger pictures, and together, we can concentrate on those, even if we disagree, here. I will not change your mind, and you will not change mine. I may not understand it, (especially from people who love to fish, and are on ifish.net) but I will not think ill of you, and I will respect your opinion.
I think everyone should be able to speak their minds about it. I recently received an email threat that if I supported 50/50, I should be very afraid if I am alone and Bill is not here at the house.

Well folks, that was the wrong thing to send me. It made me so upset that I'm going to speak out. Hey, if I'm hurt over trying to protect a fish, what better cause? :smile:

Tillamook 50/50 is the most pro-salmon vote I feel that I can take in Oregon and I'm pro-salmon and very pro-Tillamook salmon. I'm also very pro Tillamook! I love this area with a passion, and that's part of the reason I'm voting yes.

With 50% of the forest for logging, I don' see that anyone is going to lose a timber job, at least until they cut down 50% of the forest.

I have come to learn and firmly believe that we need to be more careful with our land.
I believe that:

1.-- 5 of the 6 wild populations of salmonids are so critically low, that sport and commercial targeted fisheries have been closed in just the last 13 years. This has resulted in thousands of job losses in both the sport and commercial fisheries.

2.-- Despite some of the best ocean conditions we have seen in over 40 years, along with some of the most mature habitat we have in the Tillamook State Forest, our watersheds (even in the headwaters that are only influenced by the Tillamook State Forest) do not meet minimum temperature standards for the spawning and rearing of adult and juvenile wild salmon. Simply put, due to excessive water temperatures in the summer months, juvenile fish are constrained to a very small portion of cooler water tributaries while adult wild spring chinook literally boil to death in the mainstems deep pools. The DEQ's web site specifically states death is imminent within a matter of days or weeks when these streams exceed these water temperatures- and they do every year."

I know the 50/50 isn't perfect, but I'm for it, and no one is going to scare me into being quiet about saving salmon the way I see fit.

Want to burn a cross in my yard? Please don't... Just help me take care of our rivers, our forests, and our land!
I have a lot to learn, but I know what I have seen. I have a passion that runs deep for our forests, our streams, and the salmonids. I still have hope. I'm voting yes.

Jen

[Salmonator]

I REALLY hope you turned that in to the authorities?

[bulldog]

Jennie, there are plenty of laws on the books now to protect our fish. We dont need more, or popular initiatives to interfere with good resourse management.

[garyk]

I got your back Jennie!

And the Yes on 34 ballots in the mail!

[Jennie@ifish]

Yeah, I've seen those clear cuts clear to the river's edge with mine own eyes. Works real well. :depressed:

I'm sorry. My mind's made up. I need to trust someone to take care of our trees. That's just not happening, in my humble opinion.

OK, nuff said for me. Please, no nasty grams sent my way. I'm just in love with the fishes, and I can't stop. :smile:

Also, mind everyone that we can discuss these things without getting mad, or threatening people with bodily harm.
If it goes that way, we'll have to end this thread too.

All opinions are welcome that are delivered in a calm manner, and that don't violate the Ifish Acceptable Use Policy.


Jen

[fishindogs]

It is terrible that anyone in this country should be told not to express their opinion. Good for you for speaking out for the fish and the environment Jennie.

Yes on 34 and fish for the future.

The plan is not 50/50 but this skumbag needs to be thumped.

[Pete]

It's cowardly that someone would threaten you for holding a belief ... I'm sorry someone thought threats were acceptable. Thoughtful multiple use has it's place ... and clearly it's time that fish habitat and recreational resources received the protection they deserve.

[Starfish]

I'm appalled that anyone would threaten you for expressing your views. That is inherently cowardly, and traitorous to the principles that our country was founded upon.

I am inherently skeptical of most ballot initiatives, and living in Washington haven't fully researched the Oregon 50/50 plan, so I'll withhold judgement on the specific issue. Bravo to you for holding to your convictions and challenging bullies and traitors head-on.

[BCF]

Hi I'm Blind Chicken Fishing and I love salmon.
IFish (chorus) HI BLIND CHICKEN>

Jen , Thank you for speaking out. What better place then your very own web site. You are completely appropriate.

The environment cannot have enough protection as far as I'm concerned. Deregulation and poor management has harmed the environment probably more than we have gained economically. We should be looking at it in Geologic time.

Short term economic gain has carried the day for too long. How about giving mother nature a break for awhile? The destruction of our natural resourses has long term consequences that effect more than just fish.

How about my mental health? The vista of a clear cut isn't very good for it.
And ask anybody that knows me .My mental health is important.
It benefits everyone.

Anyways , like Freespool says vote for salmon, vote for the environment. and most important, vote for my mental health.don't be fooled again.

Blind Chicken out.

[guitgary]

I really hate to foster any more hate-mongering...however, this just sticks in my craw. Jen, you have gone so completely outof your way to keep things interesting and on course on this site that it really comes as a surprise to me that an email of that nature would be sent. It just seems that the "good" are always picked on by the "less-than-good"...nothing new here.

I am a proud husband, father and grandfather. The person (and I use that term most loosely) should be prosecuted. Of source, that is, after a few of your friends have a chance to explain the facts of life to him. By and large, I opt for discussion rather than fisticuffs! This bully needs to go away for a while. Maybe his cellmate will teach some painful lessons!

You're the best. I may or may not agree withyour politics. However, I was taught to be prepared to fight for your right to express them!!

I got your back Jennie!

And the Yes on 34 ballots in the mail!

I've got your back also! Geez what's the country coming to?
Hey whoever you are that threatened Jennie why don't you threaten me? Heck I'll even meet you somewhere. Don't worry Jennie this person is a coward

<font color="red">I voted "YES" on Ballot Measure #34 </font>

[dogfishboy]

Jen, Once again, I'm proud of you.

[Snakebite]

I see NO flaws in your reasoning! Whomever threatened you or this web site may have an ignorant understanding of what's going on. I hope they realize, and soon, that things are getting better for salmonids and timber management for a good reason. Not only are the ocean conditions contrbuting to survival, the efforts of better coastal river drainage management are improving, and more proactive work is being done. In my opinion, the timber industry is coming around to better riparian protection. Not because they have to, but because they need to, in order to continue timber harvest! Timber is a renewable resource as well as the harvest of surplus salmonids. These things contribute to a healthy Oregon economy. Private industry is well aware of this, and is working to improvements. The residual effects of a (cut and run) economy are still much in the forefront of the society that believes we should not cut down trees or harvest fish as has been done in the past. I stand on the fence! I grew up on a timber economy. My Dad was manager of one of the largest timber companies on the west coast. I worked in lumber and plywood mills for years before getting a college degree in fisheries, and now I'm a fish biologist, and have been since 1985. There's a happy medium here. We just have to agree on what that is! And I guess that's what the 50/50 plan is all about.

[Striper Club]

I'm with Stew on this one! Some people get so hot and heavy about political issues that they try to force their views upon others. In this case, this individual cannot handle that some people choose to vote on issues based upon their own thoughts and beliefs, so she/he/it feels a threat is in order.

Good for you Jennie to never let others dictate what you believe in.


- Rich

[Lepper]

so this means we can discuss polititcs now?


RIGHT ON! i'm going to go post on Bush vs. KErry.


d

[StinkyH]

I've got your back also! Geez what's the country coming to?
Hey whoever it was that threatened Jennie why don't you threaten me? Heck I'll even meet you somewhere. Don't worry Jennie this person is a coward

No doubt... someone needs to be reminded of a person's right to vote either way on something. Friggin lowlife...

StinkyH

[freespool]

Perhaps in our zeel to spread democracy around the world, we've missed a few things here. We may want to take a long look at our own country. Seems to me we may have a little dirty laundry to tend to. Free speech is a constitutional right.
I applaud your guts, Jennie, for speaking your mind on this issue.
If more people took the time and the effort to get involved in these very important fish issues, we would have a lot more fish. The facts are that dams are not like waterfalls, wild fish are not the same as hatchery fish, and the bush administration cut 90% of the protection for bull trout. The path that the Bush administration is on is bad for our fish.
I, as you are, I'm very concerned about what happens to the Tillamook State Forest. My grandfather railroad logged the Tillamook prior to the first fire. He fought the first fire from the cab of his locomotive, carrying the last of the logging camp evacuees over a burning tressle to safety. My grandmother said he was all sooty and singed when he finally got everyone in danger out. What happens to the TSF is personal to me. Putting a price tag on our national heritage is wrong. Wood products should not trump salmon and salmon habitat. There is middle ground, and that middle ground is the TSF 50/50 Plan. Please join me and this couragous lady in voting <font color="red"> </font> YES <font color="black"> </font> on ballot measure <font color="red"> </font> 34 <font color="black"> </font>


salmon hugger sez, vote yes on 34, the fish will thank you

[Jennie@ifish]

No, we cannot discuss Bush Vs. Kerry. We can discuss what happens to our rivers and fish. This is directly related. No doubt in my mind about that.

Well, I was scared a bit to post this. Took me a couple days... and I am prepared for nastygrams, now.
However, whoever is mad at me for this, be mad, I guess.
I can't help how I feel.
Try driving from Raineer, through Vernonia and Timber to Hiway 6. See if you don't think it looks like a darn war zone.
It's a crime to me. It's just plain a crime. :depressed:
It used to be that you could imagine where a creek would be. Now, it's just the bottom of a Mt St. Helens like canyon. It's just... blasted!

How could they? How?
J
Jen

[Striper Club]

Please, please no Presidential politics talk! See enough of that on TV, radio, etc...

[Thumper]

Good for you Jennie. Go for it!!!

[Grant Scheele]

You go Girl!! I am very proud of your bravery. There is nothing like calling a bullys bluff. Grant

[Lepper]

don't worry jennie.. I have had enough of bush vs kerry to last me a lifetime.. no need to read it to!! :smile:

d

[Tilla]

Atta Girl!

[Reelentless]

While I completely disagree with the Measure, I respect your choice. (even though it's misinformed) :tongue:

Whoever threatened you is a disgrace to society.

[Full Freezer]

The kind of people who threaten or attempt to frighten others because they have different opinions simply cannot thoughtfully express themselves and are unable to control their emotions.

Same kind of people who abuse family members, hurt animals and have no compassion.

I would really like to know who this COWARD was! Poor fool.

[k9jeff]

Its your opinion and your vote. Use it the way you want!! Dont back off because of a threat.

[BCF]

Well said Snakebite. That opens the door to disscussion.
BCF

[Wreckless]

I work with wood daily, as a wood shop teacher, I've had reletives work in the woods and I'm voting YES on 34. After what they did to the trask a few years ago, it HAS to be controlled. Our river are sacred and we HAVE to take care of them.

Jennie, thanks for YOUR stand!!

[greenbuttskunk]

Did the right thing Jennie, I too love the forests and have seen too much ******. This issue draws out very strong emotions, so although it's totally ridiculous, I'm not surprised some low-life no-life felt so compelled to threaten you. I'm sure it's not the first time this half-wit
has threatened somebody. Of course it really does not take a man to do it through cyber-space.
Hang in there, and keep fighting hard for what you believe in, we all should, without fear of the opposition.
GBS

[TGFwriter]

Jennie-
Thanks for posting your thoughts here. I am embarassed and ashamed that you have been threatened by someone else. I think there has been enough support on this thread to form a posse and go have a talk (face to face) with this petty person. I think you have some friends that would like to straighten things out here.........I hope this person is dealt with in an appropriate manner as there are laws against such behavior.

As for my stance on Measure 34, since I am a cheif petitioner for the measure, I guess it's no secret how I will be voting. The ifish forum has done much to educate its readers and we owe Jennie a huge amount for this! Thank you for all that you do!

Coming out this week in our local Tillamook paper is an opinion piece I completed a few days ago but before I copy that here, I would like to address an earlier post that Snakebite made.

Snakebite wrote:
"Not only are the ocean conditions contrbuting to survival, the efforts of better coastal river drainage management are improving, and more proactive work is being done. In my opinion, the timber industry is coming around to better riparian protection. Not because they have to, but because they need to, in order to continue timber harvest! Timber is a renewable resource as well as the harvest of surplus salmonids."

Snakebite- you are mostly right with exception of surplus salmonids. Since we have lost 5 of our 6 wild fish fisheries, there are no surplus salmonids to harvest. That is why our seasons are closed. Even as a staunch salmon advocate, I know that ocean conditions have the largest effect on salmonid survival- but we can't do ANYTHING about ocean conditions- we don't control them! We have to stick to what we control. That is our freshwater habitats. Now, I don't really mind seeing clearcuts until they start effecting salmon. As far as I am concerned, harvest all the trees that you want to- just don't effect the water quality that grow our wild salmon. How much is industry really sacrificing by extending the "no-touch" buffer zone from 25 to 100 foot like most science indicates is adequate enough? Anyway, here is what will be printed in tomorrow's Headlight Herald:

Commissioner Josi recently wrote in regards to my advocacy for Measure 34. He stated, “In the end, people need to choose who to believe.” My reply to him would be, people need to choose what they believe in.

Amidst the mass of confusing numbers in regards to fish populations and millions of board feet harvested in our Tillamook State Forest, these facts stand out and are undisputable :

• Five of the six runs of wild salmon are not accessible to sport anglers, commercial fishermen and non-consumptive users because of closed seasons due to unsustainable populations. All of these closures have happened in just the last 13 years.
• Over 3,000 jobs alone have been lost in just the commercial troll fleet in the last 15 years. An industry that has an opportunity to rebound due to the demand for wild fish versus tainted farmed raised fish.
• All 7 of Tillamook Counties rivers are unsuitable for the recovery of wild salmon because minimum temperature requirements are not being met for the spawning and rearing of wild salmon. See DEQ’s web site at: http://www.deq.state.or.us/wq/WQLDat...chChoice02.htm
• The species of salmon that have been impacted the most have one factor in common: they require the longest period of residence time in fresh water habitats.
• Ironically, in 1948 when a state wide bond measure to reforest the Tillamook Burn was introduced by the state legislature, it was rejected by only 3 counties: Tillamook, Clatsop and Marion.

Out of these 5 simple but outstanding facts, the third is the most important to pay attention to as we now know temperature has everything to do with salmon. Temperature dictates migration, feeding patterns, egg laying and incubation and even the amount of oxygen contained in our waterways. Water temperatures in the Tillamook State Forest often exceed 68 to 70 degrees for weeks at a time during the summer months. Optimum temperature for the rearing of wild salmon is 64 degrees or lower. Optimum temperature for the spawning of wild salmon is 58 degrees or lower. Wild adult spring chinook numbers on the Wilson and Trask Rivers went from an average of 20.5 adults per pool in 1988 to just 4.5 adults per pool in 2002- the same year the season closed in Tillamook Bay. These fish spawn in early September when waters are typically at their warmest. It’s no wonder why their numbers have plummeted.

Now even I am not so naïve (as my commissioner Josi would like to believe) as to say the Oregon Department of Forestry (ODF) doesn’t do good things for fish- but managing our state forest isn’t one of them! ODF funds salmon population studies, stream restoration projects and even its own biologist to implement these projects but these are band-aid fixes in an ecosystem that needs a quadruple bypass! These fish will NOT recover until we fix the temperature gap and future climactic forecasts are not encouraging!

The biggest problem lies in riparian function. When riparian areas function properly, vegetation along streamsides trap excessive water runoff (keyword: floods) and release it (cooler water) during times when salmon need it the most- the summer months. Also critical in riparian areas is large trees. Large trees, when “recruited” into our waterways through natural meandering (keyword: natural erosion) provide important structure for fish to reside in during torrential flows. These large trees also grow the insects these fish feed on. The ODF believes a 25 foot “no touch” buffer zone is adequate for a properly functioning riparian area. Sound science and the guidelines under the Endangered Species Act do not.

Here are some other myths that opponents of Measure 34 are touting:

Salmon are a resilient species, they will adapt and survive.
Salmon are an adaptable species but most forget that this species evolved in limitless riparian areas and clean, cool watersheds. We changed all that in a little over 100 years. No species can adapt that quickly to change.

There was broad public input with a broad range of interest groups.
There was good opportunity to attend those meetings (and yes I did attend the Tillamook meeting, commissioner Josi). Comments submitted to the ODF favored the idea of much more reserve area than the current 15%. As a matter of fact, support outnumbered opposition to reserve areas 10 to 1!

Why don’t people just give this plan a chance to work? It’s true that the current state forest management plan is only 3 years old. But, if these ecosystems are not functioning properly under a relatively unlogged, semi-mature forest, what makes one think it will get any better when intensive harvest takes place- particularly within 25 feet of the streambank? Also keep in mind that these fish have not recovered to sustainable populations in years with unprecedented ocean conditions. How far will these populations crash again when the next cycle of El Nino’s occur?

Measure 34 is too extreme. When opponents argue that 50/50 is too extreme, I wonder what their definition of fair is.

Now even if your business or heritage is not directly linked to the recovery of wild salmon, everyone knows that a diverse economy is a healthy economy. The 2004 Tillamook County Almanac stated it best- “Fishing was once a major industry in the county, but today its economy is dominated by agriculture and timber harvesting.” We need the timber industry here, we need agriculture. If we can recover some of the lost jobs in sport and commercial fisheries, only then, will we have a thriving economy. The best news is, our salmon don’t come in 40 to 60 year rotations, they are ready for harvest 12 months out of every year.

Finally, the last time major timber harvest happened in the Tillamook and Clatsop State Forests, we didn’t have the science on how to maintain healthy populations of wild fish- today, we have no excuse. Now I ask commissioners Josi, Hanneman and Hurliman- put this in your time capsule and bury it.

[Kentucky Hog Hunter]

First off it is truly wrong for anyone to threaten another person.... I am glad everyone exercised their right to vote and stuck up for what they believe in....

I did the same thing but voted no on that Measure due to many reasons that were more important in my mind..... I read so much about this measure prior to my vote and really feel like I did the right thing as it pertains to me and the people of Tillamook &amp; Columbia counties. So many services rely on the revenue that these forests produce and the compelling thing in my mind is that there needs to be a balance. So I decided to vote no and put the issues of forest management in to the hands of those who have been educated the most. I am surely ignorant in regards to forest management issues but I am educated in the field of business and it is not good business to eliminate timber revenue when we need to fund education, public safety &amp; health care.

This is one of the great things about our country. We can discuss these issues and agree to disagree.

I will also say that I have been a member of one of the most promenent conservation orginizations in Oregon since I moved here in 1992 and even though I voted no on this measure, I know I am on the right side of a Salmon friendly enviornment despite the stereotypes that are put on people who voted no on Measure 34....

I have spent many, many hours on the Wilson &amp; Trask repairing gabeons and moving habitat around for a salmon friendly enviornment.... I hope I am not labled as a person who is not salmon friendly because it hurts to be labled a certain way based off your political preferences .

[BCF]

The forest canopy acts as a diffuser of rain. The surface area of all the trees combined with all the needles and leaf structures act to diffuse rainfall. This dispersion allows absorption time and prevents erosion. Sediments in the river destroy the spawning beds.,so on and so forth. What about shade? When it is hot, is it cooler in the sun or under a tree?

This should not be about money in the short term. In business do we plan for a month profit or a lifetime economy?Do we sacrifice the economy's of our Grandchildren for ourselves or our children?

Let's think about the future as well as the present.

BCF

[Kentucky Hog Hunter]

So many great arguments for the yes side but here is what it comes down to me.....

1. Lost jobs in a state that has the 2nd highest unemployment rate (7.4%) in the country. Alaska is #1 @ 7.6% (More lost jobs means higher tax burdens for working families).....

2. Measure 34 would reduce the amount of revenue received by all Oregon schools by $26 Million a year &amp; $70 million to the state, counties &amp; schools. (Less revenue means higher tax burdens for working families).....

Do I love fish....Yes....
Do I love catching fish ..... Yes
Do I think our salmon will go extinct if this measure does not pass....No
Do I think Oregoneans will lose jobs if this ballot measure passes.... Yes
Do I think I will pay more taxes for who knows what if this measure passes.... Yes
Do I donate time and money to conservation orginizations....Absolutely Yes

Here is what it means to me.....some may get upset but to me, the immediate concern is families feeding themselves and keeping roofs over their heads. Not passing this measure in turn should should be a wake up call that our current policies need to be refined and made better....but to pass it means drastic &amp; dramatic change to human life.

Is better forest management an issue.... sure it is, but you have to have balance and that means humans have to work smarter for both the economy &amp; the enviornments sake.....

[spinner53]

You Go Jennie.

To bad the timber interest can't police themselves, landslide anyone.. Then there's the Dairy cows in mY Nestucca, and subsidized by my tax dollars to boot, ah doant get me started mahn ..

[The Greek]

Jenny, I applaude your courage to express your oppinion on this heated topic(ballot measure 34). I am sorry that someone thought they could scare you into changing your support for something you so strongly believe in, sorry for them. Weak minds only understand and respond to fear. It appears to me that this persons scare tactic has backfired on him. Jenny, you have many friends, in Tillamook county and way beyond, regardless of your political orientation.
I'm voting yes on 34
Chris Vertopoulos

[Ryan Pultz]

I can’t believe someone would come to the point of threatening you for one voicing your opinion. I stand with Stew and the others that said threaten me I will meet you some place. What kind of a Coward threatens a woman in her own home or even at all. I say make it public the email address or the person that threatened you. And let us have a say at him. For one I would call the police take action against this Coward. This is just sickening that in the world we live in someone has the guts to threaten someone for what they believe in. It is sickening!! ohh and yes on 34.I want my son to have salmon to fish for when he is my age rp

[PRINCEMASTER]

I second the make it public. Also there are ways of tracing the e-mail back if you so choose, this person should know better. Opinions whether people think it is right or wrong should have a chance to be heard and you Jen have created a perfect forum for that among other things.

[BCF]

Hog Hunter I want to thank you for articulating clearly your point of view. I have read your posts and I respect what a decent person you seem to be. On family ,love of country ,friends ,making a living we are not as far (you and me) (I think) as you might be thinking. For a time in politics the word "Environmentalist" was used almost like terrorist is used now. Lately it has been the "Liberal". It seems Conservatives have been anything but.

Oregon and Alaska are in this economic mess in large part due to a lack of diversity in our markets places. Like the mono cultures which have been planted to replace the clearcuts.Our economies
have relied for to long in Timber ,fishing and metals. Pollution, destruction, and devastation. (not necessarily in that order)

Poor stewardship of the natural resourses should and cannot continue. I feel it is counter to why we are here on planet earth. Ask and you will receive, Faith that we will all be provided for when we need it is in my believe system.

Your taxes are based on what your taxes should be. What you earn. Your property tax is on what you own. The hard sacrifice of change is just that .Hard .Change is necessary and it should begin now.

A 50/50 resolution begins that transitional process. It should be the final wake up call to all who participant in non-sustainable industries. The law of diminishing returns is at hand and we as a "Just Society "must accept the inevitable.

Although I'm sure we differ greatly ,Thank you for caring and for being involved.

Robin (Blind Chicken Fishing)

[wannacatchem]

I voted with KHH....for exactly the same reason. He's able to articulate it better than I. Thanks, Kentucky Hog Hunter

[Bait Bucket]

I believe that some things are better if just left alone. And I voted accordingly.

[BungaBunga]

I got your back Jennie!

Add me to that list! And oh-by-the-way, I also happen to agree 100% with what you said.

to your courage, wisdom, and good soul.

[TheRogue]

1. Hope you sent the message on to the authorities. People like this need to be tracked down and punished!!

2. It's your site! Heck, you can post on the fishing board about voting for Nader if you want to, all day every day! Go for it, you own it!

3. I respectfully disagree with your stance on Measure 34, for the reasons that we've beaten about numerous times in the last 3 months. KHH listed a pretty good bunch of them, in a factual and common sense approach. Remember, you're not locking up 50%, you're actually locking up 65-70-75% of the entire Tillamook and Clatsop State Forests, since the remaining 50% "available" to logging falls under all current forest protection laws.

4. Most importantly, everyone excersize your OBLIGATION to vote! That's what makes a democracy work.

TR

[Cosmic Lazy Susan]

I totally support you on this.

Dale

[zipper]

Jen... this is a very complicated and emotional issue. There is a long history of very emotional issues related to the logging industry. There is also a history of violence. You should take seriously the threat and turn it over to the authorities immediately. Whenever there is this much emotion involved there are fringe people that are capable of acts that may not involve logic. As the saying goes, there are people that just "can't see the forest thru the trees"
Everyone else... regardless of how you feel on the issue (and all the others), it's your duty as a citizen to collect as much information as you can and make informed decisions at the poll (or in our case in your home with the mail in ballots) but by all means - VOTE - you will be effected directly by the outcome of this years election and one vote does make a difference.
As for me, I wish to "see the forest thru the trees" and attempt this on all relevent issues.
A Democracy doesn't work without the individual involvement of the people and would be unnecessary if everyone thought the same way on all the issues. Diversity is what makes us great!
zip

[Kentucky Hog Hunter]

Blind Chicken (Robin),

You too have articulated your points very well....In fact better than me after going back and reading them....

I worry about families loosing more jobs &amp; services when it comes down to it. I am one of the biggest conservatives on the planet earth but this is not a conservetive vs. liberal issue. I looked at who endorsed this and who didn't and the support against is totally non-partisan.

Like I said, I am the most ignorant person when it comes to what it takes to make a forest healthy for the total eco system so I read allot about the pro's &amp; con's and feel I made the most informative decision based off the data that was presented to me.

I respect everything the yes people are saying but in the end I feel like my decision was based off my own personal conviction.....

Robin, you as well are very informed and I appreciate your insight even though we are on opposite sides......

By the way, the person who threatened Jennie deserves to get what they have coming to them..... There is no place for threats and this type of action gives the "NO" side a bad name.

[Jimmy Carl Black]

Wow,

Who would of thought that I would be in agreement with somebody going with the handle of 'Blind Chicken Fishing'?

Very well-written post there. In response to this dialogue, I'm going to make an observation that I hope people don't get too crazy about. For the people who will be hurt by this measure it will be a hardship. For the majority, it will most likely be a plus or a wash. This last sentence is where the arguments should split as I see it.

On the one hand, you have people that believe we are so intrinsically linked economically that it will be bad for the state as a whole. Maybe some who see this just feel bad about it because it is wrong to force this hardship upon the people who will bear it.

On the other hand are people who believe that the alternative is worse in the mid to long range future. They probably don't see any immmediate, significant economic damage to themselves and that, no doubt, makes it easier to hold that viewpoint. Some would see this as being unsympathetic toward the human hardship that will occur.

Here's the part where I'll simply imply meaning w/o spelling anything out directly:

Does this seem to mirror some of the commonly-(mis)understood fundamental differences between the conservatives and liberals in our land?

I'm a philosopher at heart and certainly don't mean to damage anybody's constitution. I just think it's important that we really challenge our beliefs sometimes and try to see how fleeting they really are in the big picture. Well, that's my belief anyway.

By the way, the person who threatened Jennie deserves to get what they have coming to them..... There is no place for threats and this type of action gives the "NO" side a bad name.

[CATCH AND EAT]

I love salmon and I voted no on this issue. While I agree clear cutting near rivers is plain wrong tying up a resource like this is also wrong. Pretty soon we will be complaining because we cannot even get tooth picks. I do hate seeing our resource shipped over seas, milled and then sent back to us but perhaps the greed there is two fold. Greedy logging companies and greedy employees make for bad company. Throw on top of that high cost of land to cut lumber due to so much land being tied up and you get our current delima. There are better answers out there folks and the 50/50 plan is not it. And I care just as much about salmon as anyone so please don't flame me. It wont be worth it and calling folks names does not solve anything so don't even go there. This is a frustrating issue for all of us and to that we can agree.

Jen thanks for stating your position. It is respected and you are to be respected for excersizing your right to vote.

Jen I hope that you reported this to the authorities. No one deserves this kind of threat to oneself. Childish and just plain wrong.

[Capt. Hook]

KHH, I also agree with you. Leave the planning to the professionals. There is too much ballot box politics going on in this state. Why is it that the private forests are harvested to the maximum and are still in better shape than the state forests? I have been behind those locked gates many times and have seen the results of proper management. Why doesn't someone get upset about the off road vehicle damage in our public forests? Why do you suppose the private timberlands won't allow them?

Jennie, you know I will support you and defend your right to speak freely. People who make anonymous threats are cowards and will seldom come out in the open. They hide behind their phones and emails.

I spent the better part of my life enforcing all kinds of fish and game laws and logging is only a small part of the equation in my opinion.

I'm voting no on 34.

Joe Schwab, Semi Retired Fish and Wildlife, OSP. Semi retired part time fishing guide.

[Lucky Luke]

I support you and this issue, Jennie. My father was a logger and I grew up in a little logging town. I watched the decline of the timber industry until my Dad left the woods and went back to school to seak another career. My memories of being in the woods are some of the fondest that I have. Enough is enough. I have witnessed the mentality of the people that would log until there was no more. Sadly, I see that approach in some of my fishing buddies. I consider these people some of my closest and dearest friends. The question that keeps coming to mind is: why do people vote against their own interests? Healthy forests equals healthy fish runs. Why vote against it? Isn't that nonsensical?

[Straydog]

Wow. How sad. Also, how telling about some of those that are pushing the defeat of this measure.

I have had similar threats in relation to Savage Rapids Dam on the Rogue. While it is a little unnerving, especially when you have kids, it is imperative that you do just as you have. Stick to your convictions and let the world know what kind of people some of these folks we are dealing with are.

I am proudly voting Yes on this measure for just the reasons you and other supporters have expressed.

[TheRogue]

Wow. How sad. Also, how telling about some of those that are pushing the defeat of this measure.

I have had similar threats in relation to Savage Rapids Dam on the Rogue. While it is a little unnerving, especially when you have kids, it is imperative that you do just as you have. Stick to your convictions and let the world know what kind of people some of these folks we are dealing with are.

I am proudly voting Yes on this measure for just the reasons you and other supporters have expressed.

Common, let's not get too into this. I'll betcha there's been many more threats delivered over the years by ultra-wacko enviros (can you say EarthFirst?) than there ever have been from ultra-wacko....mmmm....resource users? You know that the incredibly vast majority of both sides are good people with differing opinions. You're implying something more in your post, IMHO.

TR

[TillamookChinook]

Nobody should be threatening anyone.
In this country we should be able to resolve the issue at the ballot box, which includes the opportunity for all to express their opinions openly without fear of retribution.

I will be proudly voting Yes for Measure 34.

TC

[El-Kabong]

that is funny. I have posting an opinion about this measure and had the mods edit out my post.

that said, glad you support the 50/50 plan, sorry some gutless tool choose to threaten you, that is just wrong.

I support and have cast my vote for this measure. I hope everyone on this board will also support saving the very thing that brings us all together.

IMO. It is clearly time to get the foxes out of the hen house and let science dictate a balanced use of the TSF. the short sighted "get out the cut" mentality will be the ruin of out salmon runs not to mention a continued blight on the TSF. The 50/50 plan is a step in the right direction; preserves timber jobs, helps salmon, increases jobs in other areas.

PS - Thanks Bob. Great work on this one. We all owe you.

EK

[PapaHog]

Well I thought I knew what I thought I knew about this measure. Now with two weeks to go I am not sure of what I thought I knew.

I am sure of one thing. The creep who threatened Jen should be taken care of with a bonker.

Now I will have to figure out by Saturday morning (when we vote) what I want to do.

I am confused as I believe I can see both sides. How much harm will be done to the fish? How much harm will be done to the county?

Which will be the greater good in the long run for my grand children and thier children.

I thought this was easy now I don't think this is easy.

Thanks for this discussion.

[fishindogs]

Don't know if I'm allowed to or even know how to :depressed: put links into a post. But here is a web page from the Tillamook 50/50 folks that provides point by point arguements to the advertisements the timber industry have been airing on television. It seems fair to show the other side of the issue, since so much money has been spent by timber interests to promote their side.
Hope this works! Be informed before you vote.
CLICK HERE

[Jennie@ifish]

C and E, I pledge to buy you a life supply of toothpicks.

Jen

[BentMetal]

Well, I am on the fence on this issue as well . . . mostly because I am not fully aware of all of the intricacies of the status quo, and haven't seen a great deal of the Tillamook State Forest in person as I mostly ran around in southern Willamette Valley of Oregon.

But I do have biases pointing me towards a pro-logging stance just from my Heritage (grandpa logged in 30s, Uncle Logged up til now, grew up in Logging town), but don't have an income that directly comes from the timber industry.

That said, I want to ask a question playing devil's advocate. I haven't really seen the forest that I am voting on, and I don't know all the rules of logging as they stand now. But the thing I notice being said by the Vote yes on 34 side paint the TSF as one of the last bastions of good habitat left in the North coast region. I guess my issue is what has been said in this thread . . . 5 of the 6 wild salmon stocks fishing seasons have been closed, and then the water in these drainages are still not cool enough for salmon recovery at all.

I guess my question is that all these problems still seem to be problems even with all this prime habitat available. Something doesn't seem quite right. Is the habitat still not prime enough and measure 34 is going to let it recover even more? Or are the stated problems outside of TSF, and 34 is protecting where it is good.

My 2 cent bias speaking: My deal is that the logging that got a bad rap for declining salmon runs is different than the logging we know how to do today (whether it gets done that way is another matter, and I can't and won't protect timber people if they repeat mistakes). Plus, with hatcheries, harvest, and habitat being the three h's of the coast range, and out of those three we are only willing to drastically control the 10% we can control on the habitat side of the equation (that part not called the Pacific Ocean), just doesn't seem quite right. I also agree with using what we can use, but I also think we have a responsibility to responsibly log our own lands for the houses being built in our own lands, as I am not sure where most of our wood comes from anymore and what kind of conditions it is logged under (Canada? Siberia? Southern US?)

[TheRogue]

I guess my question is that all these problems still seem to be problems even with all this prime habitat available. Something doesn't seem quite right. Is the habitat still not prime enough and measure 34 is going to let it recover even more? Or are the stated problems outside of TSF, and 34 is protecting where it is good.

Shhhhhh....don't let the word get out.. :whazzup: :whazzup:

[Lucky Luke]

"Greedy logging companies and greedy employees make for bad company."