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Old 11-18-2012, 09:23 PM   #61
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Default Re: 7mm stw

Thanks rogue. Good lookin setup by the way. Is that the only powder you've tried? I don't know a who lot about them but when developing a load I know every rifle is different and likes different things. Sounds like you got a shooter already just curious though.

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Old 11-19-2012, 06:17 AM   #62
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Default Re: 7mm stw

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Originally Posted by Hunt'nFish View Post
Ok, I'll grant you the STW is a bit faster than other 7mm's.
But burning more powder isn't going to give it better throat life......more like less.
IMO, it looks like the 7mmWby will do everything the 7mmSTW will
(note: The 7mmWby can be reamed w/ any throat length you want),
and the 7mmWSM is actually not far behind.

And considering the 7mmWSM is a short action cartridge, it can be put into a smaller, shorter, lighter, stiffer actioned rifle than all the others. And it does it with a fair bit shorter barrel. Trust me I've looked long & hard at the STW and just ruled it out based on inefficieny reasons.

This should translate to a more comfortable rifle to pack around.
And might actually do a fair job of combining "Long Range" and "Mtn Rifle" criteria into the same package.
Not everything boils down to pure speed & horsepower.

One cartridge I've always thought would be fun to create would be the 7mmHunt'nFish....he, he, he.
It's the 300Ultra (404 Jefferies) cut down to slightly shorter than the .300Win Mag.
It would basically be a beltless 7mmWin Mag and be designed to accommadate 190gr bullets.
And not exceed .300Win mag OAL & be compatible w/ the Ruger M77 max magazine length.
Sure there's absoluetly no need for such a cartridge, just think it could be an space efficent cartridge.
And it would be a great way to breathe fresh life into a eroded/shot out 7mmRem,
it would remove the eroded throat and re-cut the chamber.
Used 7mmMags are a dime a dozen on the used market anyway. (course you can ream out a 7mmRem to STW as well.)
Hunt'nFish


(Graphic copied from Real Guns website)
Cartridge Case Capacity Pressure Kpsi Nominal MV (140 Grain)
7mm Remington Ultra Mag 112 63.8 3425
7mm STW 97 66.7 3350
7mm Weatherby Magnum 87 63.8 3340
7mm Remington Magnum 82 62.3 3100
7mm WSM 81 63.8 3310
7mm SAUM 72 65.0 3150
280 Remington 68 58.7 2950
7mm-08 Remington 55 60.2 2854
7mm-30 RG 46 65.0 2750



Comparible case capacities: (Source: Chuck Hawks Reloading Pages)
.280 Remington (R-P): 68.6 grains
7mm WSM (W-W): 83.0 grains
7mm Remington Mag. (W-W): 83.2 grains
7mm Weatherby Mag. (Wby): 87.5 grains
7mm Shooting Times Westerner (R-P): 93.3 grains


Nominal Velocity Data taken from multiple Hodgdon sources
7mmWSM 140gr 3200fps at 63,000psi
7mmWSM 150gr 3100fps at 63,000psi
7mmWSM 160gr 3000fps at 63,000psi

7mm Rem Mag 140gr 3100fps at 60,000psi
7mm Rem Mag 150gr 3000fps at 60,000psi
7mm Rem Mag 160gr 2950fps at 60,000psi

7mm Wby Mag 140gr 3300fps at 60,000psi
7mm Wby Mag 150gr 3200fps at 60,000psi
7mm Wby Mag 160gr 3100fps at 60,000psi

7mm STW 140gr 3300fps at 60,000psi
7mm STW 150gr 3200fps at 60,000psi
7mm STW 160gr 3100fps at 60,000psi

7mm RUM 140gr 3400fps at 63,000psi
7mm RUM 150gr 3250fps at 63,000psi
7mm RUM 160gr 3200fps at 63,000psi
Nice info. Hunt'nFish, However you forgot the 7mm Ultra Magnum on your comparible case capacity info. I believe it is #1.
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:58 AM   #63
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Default Re: 7mm stw

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Originally Posted by Bonecrusher 0.338 View Post
Nice info. Hunt'nFish, However you forgot the 7mm Ultra Magnum on your comparible case capacity info. I believe it is #1.
Yeah, it sits at around 110grs but I couldn't find two sources that agree'd, so I left it off.
Besides it's so insanely over-bored it's not a serious canidate. I predict the 7mmRUM will die off w/ time.
Besides everyone knows the truely insane pack .30-378's.

I would like to point out that the nominal velocities I listed are for comparisons sake.
Everyone knows that each rifle is unique and may be capable of more, or less, max velocity.
Particularly if various advanced loading techniques & specialized powders are used.
I will say this, it's always been my opinion, that rather than hot-rod a particular cartridge,
why not just pick a case w/ larger volume and back off the trottle. Cases last a lot longer that way.
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:06 AM   #64
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Default Re: 7mm stw

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Originally Posted by Hunt'nFish View Post
Yeah, it sits at around 110grs but I couldn't find two sources that agree'd, so I left it off.
Besides it's so insanely over-bored it's not a serious canidate. I predict the 7mmRUM will die off w/ time.
Besides everyone knows the truely insane pack .30-378's.
Hunt'nFish
Yes, you're probably right, however Remington still offers the 7mm Ultra in a couple different Model 700's, also the brass is quite a bit cheaper than the 30-378 Weatherby brass. Thanks for the info. I knew the 7mm Ultra was #1 in the case capacity.
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:31 AM   #65
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Default Re: 7mm stw

Yeah that is some good enough there. But what powder is being used. A lot of the people on the long range link aren't even coming close to that powder capacity and still hitting that speed. Heck some are shooting faster, but its just like you said, every rifle is different and responsed better and not at all to different things. Some can go up over max and some can't even go near it
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:52 AM   #66
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Default Re: 7mm stw

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Yes, you're probably right, however Remington still offers the 7mm Ultra in a couple different Model 700's, also the brass is quite a bit cheaper than the 30-378 Weatherby brass. Thanks for the info. I knew the 7mm Ultra was #1 in the case capacity.
Actually it's not. There are a number of insanely large capacity wildcats out there.

A little reamer research popped up even my 7mmHunt'nFish concept caliber has already been done......7mmRHB. So for all you M77 fans out there, you now have a large capacity 7mm wildcat you can punch your tired & worn 7mmRemy's out to. Case capacity 94gr, very close to the STW.


So, Stickers.....what bullet are you thinking for your STW project?
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:05 AM   #67
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Default Re: 7mm stw

To bad on your caliber huntnfish, thought one of us on here would turn out to be a million era. Well ive figure I would try as many as I can. 140 accubond to the 160's. Try out the hornady amax at 162 and the sst at 154, and all through a vmax in there somewhere. Berger 168 and 180, and sierra gameking 168 and the 175. And finally try out the barnes heard they got a pretty good selection but I have no experience with them. Those are my ideas so far one of them should do the trick. What bullets do you use
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:13 AM   #68
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Default Re: 7mm stw

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Yeah that is some good enough there. But what powder is being used. A lot of the people on the long range link aren't even coming close to that powder capacity and still hitting that speed. Heck some are shooting faster, but its just like you said, every rifle is different and responsed better and not at all to different things. Some can go up over max and some can't even go near it
In my STW I used VV N560. There was no published load data using that powder. Engineers in Finland gave me what they expected to be a minimum charge and I developed what I considered to be a safe maximum load in "MY RIFLE" using techniques that Hunt'nfish and I've talked about for years. It involves carefully measuring case head expansion using factory ammo in your give rifle. If the case head expansion of your handloads is equal to the case head expansion that you got from factory ammo then you are basically at the same point pressure wise. Of course following all other case/primer observations and slowly increasing powder charges (I went at 1/2 grain increments)

The N500 series of powders are VV High Energy series so theoretically speaking you will see higher velocities over standard rifle powders, your mileage may vary. My experience with it definitely showed significant velocity improvement in my rifle. Accuracy was outstanding.

Like I said before I can't share my data because it was specific for my rifle using neck sized cases and other factors, I have in the past shared the velocity figures, but was called a liar too many times. I don't own that rifle anymore and the load data and research went with it.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:29 AM   #69
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Default Re: 7mm stw

Gotcha thanks stickfish. I have no personal experience with either of those powders. I really would like fast load but like you said you suffer on barrel life, always got to balance the two. I can't believe people called you out on yours loads. What where expecting to see the same results from there rifle?
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:33 AM   #70
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Default Re: 7mm stw

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Originally Posted by Hunt'nFish View Post
Actually it's not. There are a number of insanely large capacity wildcats out there.

A little reamer research popped up even my 7mmHunt'nFish concept caliber has already been done......7mmRHB. So for all you M77 fans out there, you now have a large capacity 7mm wildcat you can punch your tired & worn 7mmRemy's out to. Case capacity 94gr, very close to the STW.


So, Stickers.....what bullet are you thinking for your STW project?
Hunt'nFish

Actually if you read the first post, it stated " Standard Factory 7mm chamberings.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:35 AM   #71
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Default Re: 7mm stw

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I believe the 7mm Remington Ultra Magnum is at the top of the pack, in the standard 7mm Rifle chamberings. The efficiency above the 7mm Remington Magnum is questionable, however to each his own. If I was doing a lot of strictly long range open terrain Deer hunting, I might pick up a 7mm Remington Ultra Magnum, just for the fun of it. However I'm not a big fan of the 7mm for Elk. I know piles of them have been harvested with the 7mm, However I have also heard of too many horror stories, of long tracking jobs on wounded Elk.

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Old 11-19-2012, 11:05 AM   #72
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Default Re: 7mm stw

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Originally Posted by Bonecrusher 0.338 View Post
Actually if you read the first post, it stated " Standard Factory 7mm chamberings.
Huh? I never read that.
What is factory std about a custom LR 7mmSTW?
I naturally assumed this was a custom built, handloaded affair.
Also, after reading through the entire thread (I came into this thread late), I see where stickers mentioned interest in the 180gr Bergers.


AFP, finally got a chance to read through this entire thread.
You posted some GREAT info on mag length/seating depth/case capacity pro/cons. I totally agree!!!
Always nice to have the mag length to seat bullets flush to base of neck and/or still have room to seat longer as throat erodes.

But I still think the .300Ultra would be a much more straight forward LR project.
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:26 AM   #73
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Huh? I never read that.



Hunt'nFish

No problem.
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Old 11-19-2012, 12:11 PM   #74
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Default Re: 7mm stw

This is going to be a custom build. After reading much info and getting a lot of info from afp thanks again by the way. If your lucky you can find a factory stw with 1 and 9.25 twist. Bergers website recommended a 1 to 9 twist for the 180. Still trying to figure what barrel manufacturer I want to use. To much reading eyes are starting to go cross eyed.

Huntnfish. My buddy built a 300 ultra off of a remington action with a pacnor barrel. Guess its a good shooter haven't shot it yet. We both work on fishing boats so schedules never line up. Think he's runnin 180 bergers with retumbo. Can't remember what his loads came out like for accuracy, but I imagine there good darrel holland help him out on them. Never told me what bullets your runnin. What to you think about the bullets I listed earlier?
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:09 PM   #75
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Default Re: 7mm stw

When you get to picking out and working with a smith you will find they are opinionated on various things barrel manufacturers is one of them. I would save some of your specific requirements for those discussions. As an example you might like the rep that Shilen has, but some smiths won't touch them for barrels. Sort of like me, I don't like using fuji guides on a fishing rod.
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Old 11-19-2012, 05:07 PM   #76
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Default Re: 7mm stw

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AFP, finally got a chance to read through this entire thread.
You posted some GREAT info on mag length/seating depth/case capacity pro/cons. I totally agree!!!
Always nice to have the mag length to seat bullets flush to base of neck and/or still have room to seat longer as throat erodes.

But I still think the .300Ultra would be a much more straight forward LR project.
Hunt'nFish
Mike,

I imagine we agree on a lot!

Remember the original question was about the 7mm STW, and as far as 7mm Mags go, I think it is the best.

1. It has better throat life than the 7mm Rem mag while adding 150 fps or so. The 7mm RM has a short neck and steep shoulder which cause rapid throat erosion. The STW has a longer throat so it isn't as much of an issue. We see a similar thing with the .243 vs the 6mm Rem.

2. No accuracy robbing freebore like the 7mm Wby. While a freebored rifle can be very accurate (I have had some), no serious shooter who wants the Nth degree of accuracy selects a free bored chambering--especially for a long range application. Also, I question the Hodgdon numbers you posted. In my experience, the 7mm Wby is a whole lot closer to the 7mm RM than the STW. Wby velocities are often overstated.

3. The 7mm RUM is simply too large a case for the 7mm bore. Barrel life is exceptionally short, and it ofetn doesn't shoot any fastr that the STW.

Now having said all that, if the question had been which chamnbering is best for long range deer and elk, then my recommendations are first, a big 338. Second would be a big 30. No 7mm makes the cut with me for ranges past 600 yds, especially for elk. In all honesty, a 28" barreled 300 Win Mag is a much better choice than the 7mm STW for ranges past 600 yds. Of course, just as no big 7mm can keep up with a big 30 for killing power, no big 30 can keep up with a big 338.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:01 PM   #77
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Default Re: 7mm stw

Can any of you guys help me create a ballistic table with the 180 gr berger. Seems like a lot of reloaders are getting 3000 to 3200 fps at the muzzle. Just trying to get an idea how they would perform at the extended ranges.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:05 PM   #78
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Default Re: 7mm stw

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi

Is this what you are looking for?
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:12 PM   #79
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Yeah that help out a lot. Now I can get a good idea on a lot of bullets. More info to research now thanks.
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:54 PM   #80
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Default Re: 7mm stw

I doubt you'll hit 3200 with a 180 and a 26" barrel.

from Berger:

Load data was generated using Quick Load a 26 inch barrel a COAL (cartridge over all length) of 3.600 inches and your COAL and velocity could be a little different.
AS WITH ALL RELOADING APPROACH THE MAXIMUM LOADS WITH CAUTION AS ALL RIFLES AND RELOADING TECHNIQUES WILL BE DIFFERENT. If YOU CHANGE ANY OF YOUR COMPONENTS; THIS INCLUDES DIFFERENT POWDER LOT NUMBERS; YOU MUST REFIGURE YOUR LOADS BY STARTING WITH THE MINIMUM LOAD.
If we can be of any additional help feel free to contact us.
Thanks for your interest and have a great day.

Walt Berger
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Technical Advisor

7mm Shooting Times Western
Bullet Powder Start Load Approximate Start Velocity Max Load Approximate Max Velocity Fill Ratio


180 Grain RE-25 69.5 2804 73.0 2922 94.7%

180 Grain AA MAGPRO 70.5 2781 74.2 2920 87.9%

180 Grain H1000 72.0 2768 76.0 2915 96.7%

180 Grain NORMA MRP 67.5 2809 71.0 2933 88.7%

180 Grain Ramshot Magnum 72.5 2803 76.4 2951 92.1%

180 Grain IMR 7828 SSC 67.0 2806 70.8 2950 89.0%

180 Grain RETUMBO 75.0 2802 78.8 2933 98.7%

180 Grain RE-22 66.5 2778 70.3 2914 89.7%

my factory barrel groups better with RL25 over Retumbo.

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Old 11-20-2012, 06:04 AM   #81
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Default Re: 7mm stw

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Thanks rogue. Good lookin setup by the way. Is that the only powder you've tried? I don't know a who lot about them but when developing a load I know every rifle is different and likes different things. Sounds like you got a shooter already just curious though.
Have a bunch of 7828 on hand that sometime we'll get around to playing with.

Buddy loads for several 300 WBY rifles and has had good luck with the 4831 that's why he started with that.

Again, takes a lot of work when the barrel is too hot after 3 shots for good groups.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:24 AM   #82
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I can get to 3000fps in my 26" 7mm rem mag using the sierra 175gr SPBT GK. Without excessive pressure signs. Best accuracy is at 2900fps. Looking at the above data it looks very under stated to what a 7mm STW will do with a good barrel. My barrel is a pacnor custom taper stainless match grade. Probably about a 2-2.5 conture. Only shoots 2 shot groups. If I was to do it again I would go with a faster twist. 1-11" was the barrel I replaced and it was perfect for 140gr ballistic tips. My prefered 7mm deer bullet. The 1-9" only likes long bullets.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:56 AM   #83
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Default Re: 7mm stw

Some new Long Range bullets on the way.....the BC is impressive:



The 175 out of the STW as fast as it can be driven might be very interesting....
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:26 AM   #84
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After talking with afp its going to have a 28 inch tube. Yeah there's a good chance I wont hit 3200 but I wast just throwing that in there for the table. But I feel like I got a pretty good shot if baltz is getting 3000 with 175 gamekings out of a 7remmy. Rogue where did you find the long range accubonds at. Ive been looking for those for days.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:46 AM   #85
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Default Re: 7mm stw

The new Noslers are sposed to be available in March...I am looking forward to the 270 in 150's...
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:02 AM   #86
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Default Re: 7mm stw

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After talking with afp its going to have a 28 inch tube. Yeah there's a good chance I wont hit 3200 but I wast just throwing that in there for the table. But I feel like I got a pretty good shot if baltz is getting 3000 with 175 gamekings out of a 7remmy. Rogue where did you find the long range accubonds at. Ive been looking for those for days.
Make note that Baltz said best accuracy was at 2900 fps. Years ago when I messed with the 7mm RM, 2900 was where I got my best accuracy as well. For a long range rig, accuracy trumps velocity. If you get best accuracy at 3000 fps with your STW, then go with that.
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:08 AM   #87
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Default Re: 7mm stw

Just some info I found, haven't actually seen any yet!
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:38 AM   #88
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Acurracy will always be first over velocity. I just said that because I was on the long range hunting site and guys where said they were getting the best at 3100 but that was with 7mm wsm. I really like to like to take a look at those new accubonds. Right up there bc wise with the bergers.
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:39 PM   #89
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Default Re: 7mm stw

Berger is supposed to be coming out with a new 190 7mm bullet next month (perhaps don't hold your breath on that release date however). Barrel twist apparently is important on that bullet but this would seemingly be a great bullet for a custom 7mm STW.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:34 PM   #90
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Berger is supposed to be coming out with a new 190 7mm bullet next month (perhaps don't hold your breath on that release date however). Barrel twist apparently is important on that bullet but this would seemingly be a great bullet for a custom 7mm STW.
Well I am enthused about the 300 grain 338 AB with a BC of .720. Looking forward to actual performance on game reports.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:50 PM   #91
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Afp do you think this is the true bc of the new accoubonds or a lil hype there. Why would your 338 have less bc than the 30 caliber if this is true bc being posted.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:01 PM   #92
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Default Re: 7mm stw

The ogive taper is likely different between the 210 and 300's. I suspect you'll see some new form factors in the .338 bullets as well. I note in the classifieds there's a Loren Peter built 7mmWSM on a M-70 action that should be worth a very hard look since you're looking at a 7mm long range rig. Loren does excellent work and he and his daughter have been top competition shooters for years.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:17 PM   #93
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Default Re: 7mm stw

Gotcha waterbobber. Oh I took a look at it already, thanks for the heads up but unfortunately I cant do anything tell crab season starts. Which sucks so far because looks like were gonna be delayed tell december 15 from what I heard so far. But odfw suppose to do a test pull here on the 1st and see how full they have become since Novembers pull and determine when the season will start for sure. So the project has to wait tell then.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:55 AM   #94
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Default Re: 7mm stw

Quote:
Originally Posted by stickers View Post
Afp do you think this is the true bc of the new accoubonds or a lil hype there. Why would your 338 have less bc than the 30 caliber if this is true bc being posted.
I am sure the BCs are correctly calculated, but the true test is how it flies out of a specific barrel. The should have been able to make a 300 grain, .338 cal Accubond and get close to a .8 BC and they may have tried. However, they may have found it to be too fussy or too long or too costly to manufacture.

Last edited by afp; 11-21-2012 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:45 AM   #95
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Default Re: 7mm stw

Did a little bit of reading on these new lr ab. They claim that they will expand at 3200 to 1300. I sure would like to see some expansion test on these.
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