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Old 04-23-2012, 08:25 AM   #121
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Default Re: Ballot Initiative for Nov 6 Election

Point of clarity to you folks arguing your opinion about what the initiative is or is not.

IP-21 Bans non tribal gillnets in Oregon Inland waters.

IP-21 assures that sport allocations will not be reduced.

IP-21 allows the use of selective fishing gear that is currently not allowed and mandates that it must be used selectively (live release of wild fish)

Tribal agreements are not effected. Catch balancing is currently the largest limiting factor on sport harvest. This initiative wont change that.

This initiative bans gillnets and assures live release of wild fish and the bycatch that gillnets currently catch.

Seines and other selective gear are coming to the Columbia River whether you support this initiative or not. Look back at Splash's post.


"Selective Gear Testing For Commercial Salmon Fishery Encouraging; Might Go Full-Fleet In 2013
Posted on Friday, April 15, 2011 (PST)

If continued testing this year and next proves favorable, the states of Oregon and Washington could launch a full-fleet commercial salmon fishery on the lower Columbia River in late summer-fall of 2013 employing “selective” fishing gear."



So, would you like a law in place that assures sport allocations? Or would you prefer selective gear be implemented on top of gillnet fisheries with no protection of sport allocations?

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Old 04-23-2012, 11:47 AM   #122
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Default Re: Ballot Initiative for Nov 6 Election

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Originally Posted by Gun Rod Bow View Post
Point of clarity to you folks arguing your opinion about what the initiative is or is not.

IP-21 Bans non tribal gillnets in Oregon Inland waters.

IP-21 assures that sport allocations will not be reduced.

IP-21 allows the use of selective fishing gear that is currently not allowed and mandates that it must be used selectively (live release of wild fish)

Tribal agreements are not effected. Catch balancing is currently the largest limiting factor on sport harvest. This initiative wont change that.

This initiative bans gillnets and assures live release of wild fish and the bycatch that gillnets currently catch.

Seines and other selective gear are coming to the Columbia River whether you support this initiative or not. Look back at Splash's post.


"Selective Gear Testing For Commercial Salmon Fishery Encouraging; Might Go Full-Fleet In 2013
Posted on Friday, April 15, 2011 (PST)

If continued testing this year and next proves favorable, the states of Oregon and Washington could launch a full-fleet commercial salmon fishery on the lower Columbia River in late summer-fall of 2013 employing “selective” fishing gear."



So, would you like a law in place that assures sport allocations? Or would you prefer selective gear be implemented on top of gillnet fisheries with no protection of sport allocations?
You failed to mention all the by catch you'll get in the seines. You don't relize how many salmon smolts are tangled in the small meshes. Its not a pretty sight.
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Old 04-23-2012, 12:51 PM   #123
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You failed to mention all the by catch you'll get in the seines. You don't relize how many salmon smolts are tangled in the small meshes. Its not a pretty sight.
Yes, it is preferable to gillnet and kill trouble stocks once they reach adulthood. Far less impact to the fish when you kill them when they are adults.
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Old 04-23-2012, 01:50 PM   #124
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Allow me to assume facts, just like you do.

You have done next to nothing in terms of personal time to educate yourself over the last five years, but you want to come in during the forth quarter and call the plays? Are you assuming one or two guys planned all this over a pitcher of beer? If you had more than a nickel invested in the business end of this fishery, your input would be a given. Its safe to assume those who have much to lose are satisfied, they wont suffer if the initiative passes. If you have trouble accepting the plan, you should have been involved a long time ago.
Kind of a rude response to me don't you think?
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Old 04-23-2012, 01:53 PM   #125
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Its common for people to focus on just one aspect of their argument. Business owners tend to focus on multiple ways a business is impacted by political or legal decisions vs. kicking the can down the road. Sort of like running a flat tire until it wraps itself around your brake line and tears it off. Any business owner who feels as you do, is not likely to donate to the initiative. That is why they would educate themselves.

The fact is, you want to catch the gillnet share of the fish. If all the nets go away, NOAA will cut the plants. You wont get any more fish. If the gillnets continue, NOAA will cut the plants. You wont get any more fish. I bet you have never considered that with live capture, it might be possible to have more fish planted thereby raising the harvest for everyone. There is only one reason more fish were planted in the safe areas. The lack of wild fish impacts.

If less fish are planted there is less opportunity for everyone. That hurts business. If all plants are discontinued, that hurts business. If taxpayers revolt at the billion dollar price tag for this fishery, it hurts business. If the total amount of hatchery fish is reduced, then predators will increase their rate of wild fish impacts. At some point, you actually need to solve a problem, or someone else will. This is exactly about wild fish and the ramifications are numerous.

and


Chance,

I think you are reading more into my statement than I intended. My understanding is, according to a manager in the WDFW, that the states have to get approval from NOAA each and every run of fish that has ESA listed fish. The run is on its way back in, but the approval is needed.

They completely eliminated some of the hatchery runs up here. Money was a factor, but NOAA is still in charge. I dont like it, but the feds have moved in. The state wont raise the fish, if the answer will be "no season."
I was not privy to the details of every reduction or elimination of the hatchery runs.

How the Mitchell act funds are manipulated is unknown to me. I dont know which hatcheries depend on that funding. Rumor is some of that money went into gear testing.

According to a gillnetter who testified before Blakes committee in 2009 or 2010, NOAA told them they will have to change gear or the runs will be cut. He did not provide dates.
Here is a link to some information on the Mitchell Act if you are interested.
http://www.nwr.noaa.gov/Salmon-Harve...s/MA-prgrm.cfm
NMFS manages and disperses the money for the Mitchell Act. But they don’t control it all themselves. Congress appropriates money for it and dictates in the appropriations various categories for how it is to be spent. Congressman Norm Dicks from Washington is a big fan of selective fisheries and has wanted commercial fisheries to be mark selective for clipped fish. So it is not just a rumor that a bunch of Mitchell Act money was spent on testing gear for commercial selective fisheries. Washington got $1,975,519 in 2010 and Oregon got $450,000. This was because Norm Dicks put the money in the Mitchell Act for this. Personally, I would have used the money to produce fish.
But the Mitchell Act is only a piece of the Columbia basin hatchery program. And NMFS doesn’t dictate how many fish get produced for this program. They do have to address ESA listed fish and have to do ESA consultations on hatcheries. They have completed this task for some, but not for all. One of the many things NMFS looks at in their ESA consultations is numbers of hatchery fish that might be spawning in areas where NMFS doesn’t think that’s a good idea. They have expressed this concern with lower river tules. For these fish, NMFS has said that they think too many are spawning naturally. And if the weirs don’t work or the fisheries in the ocean and in-river that catch these fish don’t catch more, then maybe NMFS can force production cuts under their ESA consultation, but then again, maybe they wont. And anyway, for lower river tules, who really cares? Are you going to be sad if there are fewer hatchery tules around? For some Mitchell Act programs.... say like Carson Hatchery spring Chinook, those fish pretty much either get caught or just go back to the hatchery. There isn’t some big concern with these fish that they are straying all over. So, this program isn’t going to get cut over some concern about too many hatchery fish (with or without a commercial fishery).

There isn’t anything in the Mitchell Act per se that links the production to commercial fisheries. If there were, why would the Mitchell Act produce steelhead at Klickitat and Ringold Hatcheries. In fact other than some of the production in the SAFE areas, no hatchery production is linked specifically to a certain fishery. So if we simply got rid of the gillnet fishery, there just isn’t any evidence that production would decrease.

The Mitchell Act is not the only game in town either. There are other mitigation programs such as the Lower Snake River Compensation program http://www.fws.gov/lsnakecomplan/ and John Day mitigation http://www.cbfish.org/Project.mvc/Display/2008-527-00 http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01123/wdfw01123.pdf . There are HCP’s in the upper Columbia such as http://www.chelanpud.org/habitat-con...ion-plans.html that have already been signed off on by NMFS. These plans have set hatchery production as part of them. There are a bunch of hatchery programs that are part of the U.S. v. Oregon Agreement http://www.fws.gov/Pacific/fisheries...ent_042908.pdf. NMFS can grouch around about hatchery fish, but there are a lot of other power players involved with producing these fish. If they wanted to argue for less production, there will still be the mitigation requirements. The Columbia is a different ball game than Puget Sound and none of these programs are dependent on whether or not there is a commercial fishery of any kind.

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Old 04-23-2012, 05:02 PM   #126
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Great post FF.

Why then did Mitchell Act funds get sunk into gear evaluation? It's because they want the fish that are produced via artificial propagation to get harvested before they hit the hatchery traps. The sport fleet is about topped out on what it can do.

But the LCR commercial fishery is an open book. Those that control those purse strings want all hatchery surplus that isn't needed for production goals sucked up in fishing fisheries.
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Old 04-23-2012, 05:48 PM   #127
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This question has never been answered, you want me to tell the readers what it will look like? How many days they will fish to remove those pesky hatchery fish from the spawning grounds{where sports fishing takes place**?
What will sports do when they end up fishing over the natives left in the river? Who will be the bad guys{native killers** then? What would the allocation fight look like with a 1% mortality rate vs a 10% mortality rate?
Bill
Who is in charge of the ESA fish?
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Old 04-23-2012, 06:04 PM   #128
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Great post FF.

Why then did Mitchell Act funds get sunk into gear evaluation? It's because they want the fish that are produced via artificial propagation to get harvested before they hit the hatchery traps. The sport fleet is about topped out on what it can do.

But the LCR commercial fishery is an open book. Those that control those purse strings want all hatchery surplus that isn't needed for production goals sucked up in fishing fisheries.
Are you kidding me LOL
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Old 04-23-2012, 06:55 PM   #129
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Not fuzzy at all, and I am not the one who first suggested this - you can thank CCA for that but pressure from sport fisheries created the sport harvest floor that ruins this initiative

If more hatchery fish are not removed from the system, hatchery production will be cut. Todays fishing methods cannot remove more hatchery fish with impacting more wild fish.

The way this initiative is written it allows for two scenarios;
1) seines work but with the mandate to ensure the amount of sport harvest no more hatchery fish will be removed and hatchery plants will go down.

2) seines don't work but hook and line fisheries impact too many wild fish to reduce the number of hatchery fish getting to the spawning grounds and hatchery production is reduced.

The only way to get more hatchery fish into the system for everyone is to have a method of harvest that can remove most of the hatchery fish before they mix on the spawning grounds with the wild fish. Hook and line can never do that due to the impacts on wild fish.

When a commercial method is developed for harvest that can live sort with little or no impact to wild fish than hatchery plants can be increased making more fish for everyone. Sport fishers are legally bound to use hook and line so sprot fisheries will never be able to seperate the wild fish from the hatchery ones at a rate that will keep the hatchery fish off the spawning grounds.

For hatchery plants to remain the same or be increased more hatchery fish must be removed from the system. Then again, there is the alternative you mentioned - close the hatcheries.
Its more than just fuzzy math. For one thing, you completely skipped over tributary harvest. Its also clear, you did not consider fish weirs in any of the tributaries and I know for a fact some have been installed.

Its clear to me, you do not like the floor provided by the initiative, but without it, there would be nothing to protect the sport harvest from the way I see it. For several years, we burned up many pages on many sites arguing over the mortality reduction of live capture and whether the commercials will be rewarded with more sport allocation. That allocation was never punishment, is was just the math required to stay within a 2% impact and still provide a season for the sport and the commercials.

If it fails, the issues still remain. The stand off would leave the issue in the hands of NOAA and the States, which would likely kick the can down the road until wild returns suffered and they would, because, the tribes are taking about 12.5% of the wild fish impacts. I seriously doubt that a wild run of springers is increasing at the rate of 14.5% In the hands of the Feds, all bets are off, but I would bet, that cca has more influence, than you do.

Ive taken considerable time to address your issues and still you just change the wording and restate the same objection. Why anyone would want the sport allocation to be subject to cuts, is another question. It could be suggested you dont like hatchery fish, or you dont like seine nets. I dont care which, I just read the attitude in the post and know you are looking for issues to divide the public and defeat the initiative.
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Old 04-23-2012, 07:20 PM   #130
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Great post FF.

Why then did Mitchell Act funds get sunk into gear evaluation? It's because they want the fish that are produced via artificial propagation to get harvested before they hit the hatchery traps. The sport fleet is about topped out on what it can do.

But the LCR commercial fishery is an open book. Those that control those purse strings want all hatchery surplus that isn't needed for production goals sucked up in fishing fisheries.
Hatchery surplus is ALREADY sold to commercial buyers. The rest is given away to food banks. Considering the lack of nutrients in the tributaries, much of the surplus should be kept for nutrient enhancement, FOR WILD FISH. The sport harvest is not topped out. A little gear change and credit for leaving the fish in the water and the percentage will go down.
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Old 04-23-2012, 07:36 PM   #131
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Kind of a rude response to me don't you think?

Gee, Sorry about that. I could rephrase them in a question. Would you answer the questions if I asked them?
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Old 04-23-2012, 08:27 PM   #132
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Bill has taken a beating here. He has asked some very good questions that no one has answered.

When he projected a very possible answer, it was easily dismissed!

WHY?

Does anyone know the answers to his questions?

And if not, how do you know his is not right?

A whole lot of unknown territory here to get all excited about this initiative and assume this all that and a bag of chips. I would like to advocate for the fish, but I would also like to advocate for sport fishing as well.

I have heard a lot of "this is good for the fish" on this thread. How many of you that are only concerned about the well being of fish, go out and fish for salmon and steelhead?

If you're only concerned about the well being of the fish, here is the solution.

Close down ALL hatcheries and ALL fishing of any kind. If you don't support that initiative, you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.
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Old 04-23-2012, 08:32 PM   #133
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Gee, Sorry about that. I could rephrase them in a question. Would you answer the questions if I asked them?
Sure. Fire away.
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Old 04-23-2012, 08:55 PM   #134
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Hatchery surplus is ALREADY sold to commercial buyers. The rest is given away to food banks. Considering the lack of nutrients in the tributaries, much of the surplus should be kept for nutrient enhancement, FOR WILD FISH. The sport harvest is not topped out. A little gear change and credit for leaving the fish in the water and the percentage will go down.
It's very likely some serious investigations into released encounter mortality rates are going to hit sooner rather than later. The lack of evidence beyond a technical committee "think tank" is astounding.

I dont think 21% for ocean coho, based on not a single study, is going to last much longer. And I don't think we'll see a credit on that one. More likely a huge debit is in order.

Point being is that as a whole we're probably going to loose traction with those set mortality rate per released encounter soon.

So yeah... for all intents and purposes the sport fleet is just not capable of doing what the bean counters want to happen. They want hatchery surplus taken out in fisheries not at the traps.

The way to make that happen in fishing fisheries is live sort with near 0 mortality per released encounter.

If it can be done.
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:34 PM   #135
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What's your opinion on using excluders at the dam to sort out hatchery fish?
Perhaps the Tribes could take a portion of their quota in hatchery fish sorted at the dam.
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:27 AM   #136
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Bill has taken a beating here. He has asked some very good questions that no one has answered.

When he projected a very possible answer, it was easily dismissed!

WHY?

Does anyone know the answers to his questions?

And if not, how do you know his is not right?
Proponents of this initiative would like to have the vote of sport fishermen so when I point out that a spring chinook commercial seine season will last many times longer than the current gill net seasons they really don`t want that to be known or thought about. Columbia river sport fishermen know that fishing is lousy after a commercial season, which was 2 days this year{so far**. Having a spring commercial season lasting 30 days or more would be devastating to sport spring chinook fishermen.
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Coming soon, my prediction on what a summer/fall seining season will look like. Bill
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:30 AM   #137
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They want hatchery surplus taken out in fisheries not at the traps.
Point not usually mentioned, the #1 remover of hatchery fish, hatcheries. Bill
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:08 AM   #138
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i repeat, want to remove the hatchery fish? close the hatcheries, let the DNA take over. that of course will lead to a huge impact to tribal fishing as well as hitting the rec sector. you folks ready to do your part?
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:33 AM   #139
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..<snip>...

I have heard a lot of "this is good for the fish" on this thread. How many of you that are only concerned about the well being of fish, go out and fish for salmon and steelhead?

If you're only concerned about the well being of the fish, here is the solution.

Close down ALL hatcheries and ALL fishing of any kind. If you don't support that initiative, you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.
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i repeat, want to remove the hatchery fish? close the hatcheries, let the DNA take over. that of course will lead to a huge impact to tribal fishing as well as hitting the rec sector. you folks ready to do your part?
Good comments, here. My guess is neither is acceptable to most people who post here. I've also seen others post that 'all mutts must die'. But consider this as another totally unacceptable option - 'all natives must die'. Imagine just how easy management would be if there were no 'wild' fish to put on the endangered list.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:34 AM   #140
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i repeat, want to remove the hatchery fish? close the hatcheries, let the DNA take over. that of course will lead to a huge impact to tribal fishing as well as hitting the rec sector. you folks ready to do your part?

Do our part meaning watch fish stock die off? There has been too many changes to spawning areas to have any recovery of native fish. Some studies quote 85% of traditional spawning areas are destroyed. Do you really think if we just remove hatchery fish big changes will occur?

We could outlaw all fishing, commercial and sport angling and they would not recover. It's a pipe dream.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:34 AM   #141
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Proponents of this initiative would like to have the vote of sport fishermen so when I point out that a spring chinook commercial seine season will last many times longer than the current gill net seasons they really don`t want that to be known or thought about. Columbia river sport fishermen know that fishing is lousy after a commercial season, which was 2 days this year{so far**. Having a spring commercial season lasting 30 days or more would be devastating to sport spring chinook fishermen.
-
Coming soon, my prediction on what a summer/fall seining season will look like. Bill
Totally with you, I have predicted the same thing.

YES......This will likely be good for wild fish.

But it will also likely be another blow to sport fisherman. Have fun trying to find havestable fish when the nets are siphoning 3,4,5? times longer leaving the natives for you to release.

I am not worried about MY fish, I hand the rod off and give plenty of fish away every year and still have more fish than I can eat.

I am sure some are going to read my comments in disgust, thinking I am a meat fisherman and have a negative view. So be it.......I support conservation of fish and conservation of sport fishing.

I will not support initiatives that weaken or could weaken sport fishing success rate. If you don't like that, put out an initiative that bans ALL FISHING PERIOD!

I can live with that if you can?
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:52 AM   #142
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Point of clarity to you folks arguing your opinion about what the initiative is or is not.

IP-21 Bans non tribal gillnets in Oregon Inland waters.

IP-21 assures that sport allocations will not be reduced.

IP-21 allows the use of selective fishing gear that is currently not allowed and mandates that it must be used selectively (live release of wild fish)

Tribal agreements are not effected. Catch balancing is currently the largest limiting factor on sport harvest. This initiative wont change that.

This initiative bans gillnets and assures live release of wild fish and the bycatch that gillnets currently catch.

Seines and other selective gear are coming to the Columbia River whether you support this initiative or not. Look back at Splash's post.


"Selective Gear Testing For Commercial Salmon Fishery Encouraging; Might Go Full-Fleet In 2013
Posted on Friday, April 15, 2011 (PST)

If continued testing this year and next proves favorable, the states of Oregon and Washington could launch a full-fleet commercial salmon fishery on the lower Columbia River in late summer-fall of 2013 employing “selective” fishing gear."



So, would you like a law in place that assures sport allocations? Or would you prefer selective gear be implemented on top of gillnet fisheries with no protection of sport allocations?
Just an attempt to bring this back to what is, instead of what you imagine it might be...

Catch ballancing limits total number of hatchery fish harvested by all non-tribal fishers.

The policy in IP-21 states that sport allocations cant go down.

So hence commercial fishers with selective gear cannot harvest more fish, just enables them to be able to live sort and let wild fish swim back to the gravel.

True that gillnetters fished 2 days so far this year for salmon. And pulled about 2500 fish each time.

If a selective fishery fished longer, more spread out, I don't see that as a negative for sport anglers (I'm sure you will)

Seines are coming either with this initiative or without. WDFW is in the process.

So sport anglers can ask themselves, do you want to pass an initiative that has protections for sport allocations? Or let WDFW implement seines on top of a gillnet fishery?
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:54 AM   #143
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If you don't like that, put out an initiative that bans ALL FISHING PERIOD!

I can live with that if you can?
....and you think that the general voting public (non-angling) is going to support crushing an industry that believe it or not actually employees Oregonians (sport/commercial).

Don't get me wrong....In my utopia the CR would be a sport fishing mecca rivaling anything else available in the world. In this current climate putting anyone out of work is not going to be popular and that isn't going to fly at this time. We need to get the gillnets out of the river and I know everyone has springer on the brain right now, but I'm confused as to why having all those hatchery steelhead (both winters and summers) released back into the system unharmed and ready for the sports industry to exploit are being lost in the banter?

Nobody is going to be 100% satisified with this bill.....we just need a majority to be generally ok with it. It will be tested in November.
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:23 AM   #144
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April 25th, Wed. 6:00 PM Tillamook office ODFW, CCA meeting. Show up and get the facts. Ask your questions and get your answers. Don't come just to argue come with an open mind. Now I know that would be hard for some of you to do but give it a try.

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Old 04-24-2012, 09:14 AM   #145
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Sounds like it will destroy springer fishing in the Willamette which is where I do 90% of my springer fishing. I'd personally rather see the Columbia shut down all together than have the commercial fleet take substantially more of the Willamette bound springers before I even have a chance to fish for them. I know it's a little selfish but that's just how I feel. Removing more hatchery fish in the lower Columbia is not good for me no matter how people spin it.
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:29 AM   #146
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some folks..."want to come in during the forth quarter and call the plays? Are you assuming one or two guys planned all this over a pitcher of beer? ..... If you have trouble accepting the plan, you should have been involved a long time ago." - Lead Bouncer

Pretty much sumes it up,

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Old 04-24-2012, 11:31 AM   #147
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We could outlaw all fishing, commercial and sport angling and they would not recover. It's a pipe dream.

common urban legend. do you recall what happened with the 100% destroyed toutle? yep, all by themselves.
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:39 PM   #148
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common urban legend. do you recall what happened with the 100% destroyed toutle? yep, all by themselves.
This Toutle scenario bears no resemblance to a complete moratorium in fishing effort. There were already several brood years destined to return to he river out in the ocean when the eruption happened so of course fish were still going to return and repopulate the river.

Most evidence that fisheries researchers have found suggest that limiting factors on salmonids occur at the juvenile stage, so adding more adults to a river system won't recover anything if it is a density dependent situation.

Fix the habitat, stop development and remove the dams, then let's talk some more options.
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:43 PM   #149
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i repeat, want to remove the hatchery fish? close the hatcheries, let the DNA take over. that of course will lead to a huge impact to tribal fishing as well as hitting the rec sector. you folks ready to do your part?
What do you get out of asking a question like that? What is the point, when you already know the answer?
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:51 PM   #150
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What's your opinion on using excluders at the dam to sort out hatchery fish?
Perhaps the Tribes could take a portion of their quota in hatchery fish sorted at the dam.
If the tribes decide they want to do it and USACE is cool with it then you have no problem.

Where and how they die has no affect on ESA recovery.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:05 PM   #151
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What's your opinion on using excluders at the dam to sort out hatchery fish?
Perhaps the Tribes could take a portion of their quota in hatchery fish sorted at the dam.
It doesn't matter what anyone's opinion on this matter is because it would never happen. Never in a million years will mainstem hatchery fish be removed at dams.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:10 PM   #152
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It doesn't matter what anyone's opinion on this matter is because it would never happen. Never in a million years will mainstem hatchery fish be removed at dams.
That's what people were saying about the four lower Snake River Dams, now their removal is on the table as an option for recovery.
By removing at the dam, the LCR sport angling industry could still be viable.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:14 PM   #153
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That's what people were saying about the four lower Snake River Dams, now their removal is on the table as an option for recovery.
By removing at the dam, the LCR sport angling industry could still be viable.
The problem with this scenario is that Portlandia is not the center of the universe. People use the fish for 700 river miles past Portland. Got that? People upriver of Portland don't care about LCR fisheries and would rather see the quotas cut way back.

Try telling the upriver tribes that hatchery fish will be taken out at the dams and that their fishing rights no longer exist. Try telling IDFG that Idaho anglers no longer get to fish for chinook and steelhead. Guess what you'd be left with? No more fish, because the tribes and IDFG would stop producing fish.

It's an idea that would never come to fruition, thankfully, because we have managers who value providing everyone with a fishery, not just Portland and Vancouver.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:58 PM   #154
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i could be wrong on this chance, but i do believe the toutle was blow out for more than a number of returning brood years. if i remember this correctly, the steelhead were the first to be observed followed by chinook.
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Old 04-25-2012, 04:21 AM   #155
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i could be wrong on this chance, but i do believe the toutle was blow out for more than a number of returning brood years. if i remember this correctly, the steelhead were the first to be observed followed by chinook.
I watched a show (I think on OPB) that profiled this and you are right that it was years before the river was "healthy" enough to sustain natural production. The fish were "straying" into other systems over the seasons and then "straying" back when conditions improved. It is believed that this straying is a survival technique that is built into salmon and steelhead to survive and repopulate after natural disasters.
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:43 AM   #156
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thanks trick. as i was thinking about this last night, i don't think any fish were observed until the silt retention dam was in place and fully operational. and we all know just how speedy construction work of this kind happens.

what this clearly demonstrates is the 'pioneer' fish do survive in our screwed up environment. can they generate a population of returning fish capable of supporting harvest? that is the real question that folks focus on, not the fact that the DNA is still present and active.

now what would happen if we prohibited harvest to give the fish a chance? well we will probably never be able to answer this question because big business will decide the fate of our fish. commercial harvest, tribal and non, have the fate of all anadromous fish in their hands and all of us know in our hearts just how this is going to play out.

then again, we have the stand out willamette river as a working example.
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Old 04-25-2012, 03:22 PM   #157
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common urban legend. do you recall what happened with the 100% destroyed toutle? yep, all by themselves.
GPT... the Toutle did not come back it's own. WDFW planted the bejesus belts out of that basin after the eruption. They just didn't ad-clip.
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Old 04-25-2012, 03:54 PM   #158
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I love the way these threads stray....like salmonids.

Signature gathering is underway!

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Old 04-25-2012, 06:19 PM   #159
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GPT... the Toutle did not come back it's own. WDFW planted the bejesus belts out of that basin after the eruption. They just didn't ad-clip.

the wild fish were there to the amazement of WDFW before anyone had lifted a finger. the rec angling community was upset because the river was closed to harvest. the rec angling community pressured WDFW into what you just said so they could harvest anadramous fish. once that stocking started, the wild fish disappeared.

no one was more shocked than WDFW to see those fish return on their own. i would have to believe they were not reluctant to start that stocking, after all they really have to defend the millions they flush down the hatchery rat hole every year!
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:28 PM   #160
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I want to make sure I understand the facts.

Yes = Bans non tribal gill nets from all Oregon inland waters

No = Status quo

Correct?
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:30 PM   #161
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That's what people were saying about the four lower Snake River Dams, now their removal is on the table as an option for recovery.
By removing at the dam, the LCR sport angling industry could still be viable.


BUT, But, But, what about the low mortality rate?
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:47 PM   #162
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I want to make sure I understand the facts.

Yes = Bans non tribal gill nets from all Oregon inland waters

No = Status quo

Correct?

correct...
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:18 PM   #163
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You failed to mention all the by catch you'll get in the seines. You don't relize how many salmon smolts are tangled in the small meshes. Its not a pretty sight.
SGR:
I've come back to this comment several times. You have struck my curiosity. Are you suggesting that the small mesh size of the seines (what are they about 3/4 to 1" squares?) would be the right size to catch salmon and steelhead smolts? Do you have access to any data on this? I know most of the seine testing has been in the fall after most of the outmigration of juveniles. But if you were right, the use of seines in the spring or summer could catch lots of juvenile fish. It probably would not be good for them either. This would be something the Colvilles would never see with their seine fishery because the juveniles are all gone by August up there where they fish. Even if there were data showing that the seine testing in the lower Columbia caught things like juvenile shad (which I have heard out migrate in the fall), it would indicate a risk to juvenile salmon if used in the summer. Have you tested seines? or do you know the guys who do? What do the data say?
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:22 PM   #164
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the wild fish were there to the amazement of WDFW before anyone had lifted a finger. the rec angling community was upset because the river was closed to harvest. the rec angling community pressured WDFW into what you just said so they could harvest anadramous fish. once that stocking started, the wild fish disappeared.

no one was more shocked than WDFW to see those fish return on their own. i would have to believe they were not reluctant to start that stocking, after all they really have to defend the millions they flush down the hatchery rat hole every year!
The story you tell here makes no sense. The basin has an unbroken history of large quantities of anadromous plants from the 1950s to the present.
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:10 PM   #165
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SGR:
I've come back to this comment several times. You have struck my curiosity. Are you suggesting that the small mesh size of the seines (what are they about 3/4 to 1" squares?) would be the right size to catch salmon and steelhead smolts? Do you have access to any data on this? I know most of the seine testing has been in the fall after most of the outmigration of juveniles. But if you were right, the use of seines in the spring or summer could catch lots of juvenile fish. It probably would not be good for them either. This would be something the Colvilles would never see with their seine fishery because the juveniles are all gone by August up there where they fish. Even if there were data showing that the seine testing in the lower Columbia caught things like juvenile shad (which I have heard out migrate in the fall), it would indicate a risk to juvenile salmon if used in the summer. Have you tested seines? or do you know the guys who do? What do the data say?
This probably will be an issue, as I trap crayfish with 1 inch and 3/4 inch holes and I catch quite a few of little salmon and trout. I'm sure it could be worked out after trial and error (there has to be a right size mesh to keep little ones out).

Another thing to add to the growing list of possible unintended consequences involved. I still can't find any studies that shows the mortality rate of CR salmon released from Seine nets. I did see a study done by Bonneville that used seine nets to trap Smolts for river identification. There had to have been 50 types of fish caught...is this what is going to happen with the Commercial Seines? Huge numbers of fish balled up in nets multiple times a day? What (more like when) if the Sea Lions learn that if they get into a net it will be easy pickings...imagine what a fustercluck that will be?
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Old 04-26-2012, 06:18 AM   #166
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The story you tell here makes no sense. The basin has an unbroken history of large quantities of anadromous plants from the 1950s to the present.

i understand your point, understand mine. the river was stripped of all fish due to the massive silt flows. once the retention dam started operating, wild fish, or pioneers if you wish, showed up in the river. these fish were not planted by WDFW. the word i got was they had intact adipose fins. the numbers were not great but they had found a river they wanted to inhabit. this is exactly how the wild fish DNA works, thats the point.

what happened next was massive stocking by WDFW of hatchery zombies, wiped out the wild fish simply because of the numbers, as it does in every drainage that WDFW messes with.

this is a clasic example of how wild fish can come back to our river systems by simply getting out of their way and NOT stocking hatchery zombies.
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Old 04-26-2012, 08:07 PM   #167
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i understand your point, understand mine. the river was stripped of all fish due to the massive silt flows. once the retention dam started operating, wild fish, or pioneers if you wish, showed up in the river. these fish were not planted by WDFW. the word i got was they had intact adipose fins. the numbers were not great but they had found a river they wanted to inhabit. this is exactly how the wild fish DNA works, thats the point.

what happened next was massive stocking by WDFW of hatchery zombies, wiped out the wild fish simply because of the numbers, as it does in every drainage that WDFW messes with.

this is a clasic example of how wild fish can come back to our river systems by simply getting out of their way and NOT stocking hatchery zombies.
Just wanted to make sure our scales were square.
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:29 AM   #168
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SGR:
I've come back to this comment several times. You have struck my curiosity. Are you suggesting that the small mesh size of the seines (what are they about 3/4 to 1" squares?) would be the right size to catch salmon and steelhead smolts? Do you have access to any data on this? I know most of the seine testing has been in the fall after most of the outmigration of juveniles. But if you were right, the use of seines in the spring or summer could catch lots of juvenile fish. It probably would not be good for them either. This would be something the Colvilles would never see with their seine fishery because the juveniles are all gone by August up there where they fish. Even if there were data showing that the seine testing in the lower Columbia caught things like juvenile shad (which I have heard out migrate in the fall), it would indicate a risk to juvenile salmon if used in the summer. Have you tested seines? or do you know the guys who do? What do the data say?
I was a deckhand on the Seine test boat. I didn't like what I saw. It was raining scales and smolts. Nothing got recorded for data. Neither did the fish that got eaten by the sealions that were waiting on the other side of the net where the fish are released. Worst thing to do to the Columbia is adopt a Seine fishery. DON'T DO IT! THERE OUTLAWED FOR A REASON!
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Old 04-27-2012, 03:42 AM   #169
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I was a deckhand on the Seine test boat. I didn't like what I saw. It was raining scales and smolts. Nothing got recorded for data. Neither did the fish that got eaten by the sealions that were waiting on the other side of the net where the fish are released. Worst thing to do to the Columbia is adopt a Seine fishery. DON'T DO IT! THERE OUTLAWED FOR A REASON!
2 am!! You posting while fishing?? Many fish around?

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Old 04-27-2012, 06:30 AM   #170
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I was a deckhand on the Seine test boat. I didn't like what I saw. It was raining scales and smolts. Nothing got recorded for data. Neither did the fish that got eaten by the sealions that were waiting on the other side of the net where the fish are released. Worst thing to do to the Columbia is adopt a Seine fishery. DON'T DO IT! THERE OUTLAWED FOR A REASON!
Yes, the reason they are outlawed is because the gillnetters mounted enough political clout to get every other method outlawed many years ago. Just a little Oregon history lesson.
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:35 AM   #171
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DON'T DO IT! THERE OUTLAWED FOR A REASON!
Ok.....Purse seines were outlawed in 1922 on the CR. I'm curious as to the reasons used in 1922?
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:49 AM   #172
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Seines were outlawed because the gillnetters could not compete with them, if a gillnetter cannot catch fish above a seining operation, what chance will sports have? Bill
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:59 AM   #173
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in 1922, the purse seine boats required a crew of about 7 men. they were called 'table top' seine boats because the nets were on the stern on a 'table top' from which they were deployed. these nets were pulled by hand, one guy on the leads, one guy on the floats and a couple on the actual net. it was labor intensive but very productive.

the introduction of the power block changed all of that with the crew size going to 3-4 men. it also introduced much longer nets to the game.

the seine, in all of its current forms, is a very efficient method of harvest. it might be the most efficient ever invented and accounts for billions of tons of all sorts of fish up and down the west coast.

but, it also requires a large investment in boat and gear. the gill net operations tend to be a single person on a small relatively inexpensive boat, and often run as a one man family business. cheap and easy to get into and operate. to compete with the efficiency of the seine boats was a non starter for the gill netters and i would expect that had much to do with getting the seiners out of the water.

power blocks and power net reels have now been baned in some areas of northern waters simply because they are so efficient at harvest. this is particularly the case with herring in AK waters.

i know several old salts who worked these original boats with tar dipped cotton nets and they have many a story to tell about size of catch and how hard the work actually was.
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Old 04-27-2012, 07:04 AM   #174
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Ok.....Purse seines were outlawed in 1922 on the CR. I'm curious as to the reasons used in 1922?
Ginny posted this from the voters pamphlet of the day:

http://www.ifish.net/board/showpost....&postcount=334

She has also posted a pdf of the history of commercial fishing on the Columbia, but I can't find that right now. Very, very interesting read. Maybe someone else can post the link or maybe Ginny will see this and repost it here.
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Old 04-27-2012, 12:42 PM   #175
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2 am!! You posting while fishing?? Many fish around?

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Old 04-27-2012, 01:27 PM   #176
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Sorry to hear that SGR.
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:59 PM   #177
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What do the prior two posts have to do with the ballot initiative?

Dummie, thanks for the link re the 1927 arguments in the initiative battle of the day. I will repost the CR commercial fishing history again sometime soon. I usually wait for a gillnetter to talk about "greed" so that the real meaning of the word in the context of salmon fishing can be shown in its true light.
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:07 PM   #178
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Default Re: Ballot Initiative for Nov 6 Election

What's the next initiative on the agenda Ginny? Oh sorry I'm not on topic.......

Last edited by Clatter; 04-27-2012 at 08:08 PM.
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Old 04-29-2012, 03:52 AM   #179
Trick
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Default Re: Ballot Initiative for Nov 6 Election

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dummie View Post
Ginny posted this from the voters pamphlet of the day:

http://www.ifish.net/board/showpost....&postcount=334

She has also posted a pdf of the history of commercial fishing on the Columbia, but I can't find that right now. Very, very interesting read. Maybe someone else can post the link or maybe Ginny will see this and repost it here.
I do recall reading it and remembered hearing about the "wild west" commercial days on the CR that even involved murder between different commercial groups. Some of the stories I've heard sounded like story lines in mafia movies.

Anyways, thanks for the info.....good to have a refresher.
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Old 04-29-2012, 06:35 AM   #180
Ginny Ross
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Default Re: Ballot Initiative for Nov 6 Election

To those working on the campaign:

Where and when can I sign?!

Ginny
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