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Old 04-21-2012, 08:55 PM   #61
Sunnygx
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Default Re: Pigeon training

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Originally Posted by llama77 View Post

But on to more important things. As I recall your dog has its FC.
Not yet still working on that. He is a Master hunter though.

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But your own experience chukar hunting should now cause you to pause and think. You have a nice dog, why didnt you get any limts? You said he covers 27 miles, mine might do 12 when I do 8. Why did I and my son and friends get limits with the retrievers? Perhaps you might have to rethink your position?
Well send me some GPS cordinates and let me give your spot a try. I think you are confused about the context of the miles per day discussion. It was not meant to bash the mileage that your dogs are covering. But just a disscution about what our dogs where covering. If you look back I think you will see my dog is covering the least amount of ground compared to what guys said there dogs where doing. That doesn't bother me at all why should it bother you that your dog covers even less if you are happy with it.

Why did I not shoot limits? Well for starters the birds I was hunting last year seemed to have had alot of pressure. Often times flushing before I could get close enough for a shot, not flushing due to the dog but after I had passed the dog on point. Then there where all the times I messed it up. Come up on the dog on point and have a bird get up 45yds out empty my gun only to have the whole covey flush 15yds in from of me. Or the times when I just straight up missed. The dog did produce plenty of birds when hunting good areas though so I don't have to be embarassed about that.

I did learn a few things though. Don't shoot unless the bird is well in range, wait for the late flushers. Approach the dog from well below his position if at all possible. the birds almost always flush down hill, this will provide the best shot opportunities. And if you hunt with multiple guys you want to be the down hill guy. When you find the elevation the birds are at stick to it. Camp near hot springs whenever possible, makes the muscles feel a lot better the next day. Ect.


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Perhaps there is more to hunting chukars than having a great big running pointing dog? Your experience would seem to justify a change opinion and support mine dont you think?.
There is 100% more to hunting chukar than having a dog PERIOD. I also support your opinoin, belive it or not. I have lots of freinds that do just fine with there flushing dogs, many of them shoot limits on a regular basis. You know there are probly guys out there that can shoot limits without a dog so wether or not you shoot a limit really is no reading on if you have the best dog or not. Unless all other factors are equal the number of birds you harvest has no bearing on the dogs performance.

The pointer vs flusher debate will rage on forever. There will always be guys who prefer one or the other. It's almost as bad as the ford vs chevy debate. And you know there is nothing wrong with that so long as we mantain some level of respect.

And one more thing I will throw in here. I think hunting over a bad flusher would be way better than hunting over a bad pointer. A flusher can make way more mistakes than a pointer and you can still get the birds. If a pointer screws up you usually don't get a shot.

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Old 04-21-2012, 09:01 PM   #62
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Default Re: Pigeon training

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What should be most important in the end isn't the number of birds you shoot, but the dog work, that everyone have a good time with their dog, enjoy the success they have and the stories the trips produce.
Some seem to miss this important fact. So long as you are enjoying yourself the rest is just details.
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Old 04-21-2012, 09:08 PM   #63
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Default Re: Pigeon training

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Since this has drifted away from the OP original question I would like to try and get back on track a bit for him if hes still following along.
First off asking the question is great. The fact that you are trying to get your dog trained is outstanding! One thing I can tell you for sure no matter what the breed and ive hunted with a lot of them. Good training will bring better results. The best bred dog without the proper training will not outperform a lessor bred dog that has had the proper training. But a poorly bred dog will never be on par with a well bred dog assuming equal training.
And I do agree with sunny on this, train to the highest level time allows!
I almost missed this quote. This is spot on. Thats why I harp on everybody so hard to expect more from there dogs. But don't feel bad if you are not there yet just keep working toward a goal a little at a time. And above all HAVE FUN at it because really isn't that what it's all about.
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Old 04-22-2012, 06:47 AM   #64
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"hunting over a bad flusher would be way better than hunting over a bad pointer." Ya took the words right out of my mouth.

Good pointer vs bad pointer: Dang! I've got one of each. Nothing like first person experience. My first Griff was a duck/goose dog from the beginning and later I tried to make her into a pointer. She missed those first formative months of doing what she should have been doing and never made the transition as an older dog. Personally, I don't think she'd have ever made a good upland dog as she didn't have the correct physiology and mental connection, being from a "show/AKC" background. Said to the wife unit one day, "I need another dog, Cassie isn't worth a sxxx."

Didn't know diddley about getting a good Griffon and was pretty fed up with the crap here on the left coast. Didn't want any part of them. Went on the website, versatiledogs.com and asked, "is anyone out there breeding true hunting Griffons?" I was pretty much ready to get a DD if this didn't pan out. Well, there certainly was some good Griffons being produced but a long way from Oregon. Got two or three good leads on litters and finally settled on one in Peoria Ill. Female had just been bred, pups weren't due for a while. Breeder kept me informed with videos/photos, the usual stuff. Had to fill out an application, explaining what the dog would be used for, the kind of home I would provide and the testing I was going to do. You can't just buy one of these dogs simply because you've got the $'s. All good breeders require this.

The breeder was going to keep one pup and the rest were up for grabs. I forget what place I was in for picking a pup but I assume there were other ahead of me since I was late getting on the pup list. The pup I picked was called "Three Spot" cause she had three brown spots. Not a good choice, this was the one the breeder wanted to keep. He shipped her to me in early April.

Summer consisted of a couple a days a week going up to Hagg Lake for exposure runs, swimming, a bit of training for fetch, which I mess up, hand signals, building range and confidence.

October rolled around, she'd not been shot over, had little upland bird contact, was green as they come. First day I shot a couple of Huns, a Chukar and a rabbit. We were hunting three days a week for the first three weeks then off to ND for Phez. She was pretty fired up with birds at this point and had to do a little "control" taining a few times. If she got a little too fired up, we'd take a break and let her calm down.

After ND, we took a two week break to let her feet heal up and allow the experience time to sink in. We got back to hunting in early Dec. We were hunting two days a week for the remainder of the season. The last nine trips, I shot eight limits, the last day we only got seven. I'd never gotten more than four birds on any given day with my other dog and those were by luck alone. I had a total understanding of good pointer vs bad pointer.
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Old 04-22-2012, 06:22 PM   #65
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Default Re: Pigeon training

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Is that what steady to flush is? Didnt know that.See how we can all learn from each other. Getting steady to wing and shot is not that difficult. It starts with the basic sit/stay obedience training. We then combine sit to whistle with that.

Towards the end of FF when we are working on T drills the dog gets lots of exposure to sitting on a whistle. It becomes a conditioned response.

I then start mixing in stopping drills while throwing bumpers. You have to read the dog and mix stopping with not stopping so they dont anticipate.

The dog gets lots of practice without having to mess around with launchers and birds. Like to wean them off this drill as I dont want to do a lot of stopping on marks, but again they get lots of practice. then its an easy transition to shot, birds. We just have to convey what we want and if they need a correction they will know exactly why and we dont have to worry about issues with the collar and birds which could be a problem with a dog thats not prepared properly.

So by the time a dog is 8 to 9 months old he has most of the tools he will need for the rest of his life for upland work and we can go hunt. He will have guntraining, FF, be under control to keep him in range , have a good start on steady to wing and shot, a good start on marking skills , a good start on handlind skills, and we have all the tools in place to make corrections should any issues arise. Since they will already have had the different types of upland birds shot for them, they will know instantly what the smells mean and go to work.

47sgs has it right about maintenance. You do have to keep up with it or they can digress.

As I am sure you know, at tests and trials for retrievers the handler is not allowed to touch the dog,have a collar on the dog,carry a stick or even do too much verbal control during the tests. Especially when having to honor another dog. They will have to sit while birds are shot for another dog and then heel away from the line. they also run a test I call a "bulldog". Launch a big mallard and shoot it so it lands 30 yards out in the water or so and then fire a sluicing shot next to it. Drives a dog nuts! but they have to stay. But I'm sure you knew that.

As to the "myths". you are correct, some like pointers , some flushers. But I find it odd that when I respond to a question about flushing dogs in upland work, specifically retrievers you want to censor me?? Perhaps you can explain that to me cause I dont get it?

I will continue to dig it up as long people keep posting misleading/false information. You realize trying to censor me will not make what I say any less true.

47guy, 100 birds is a good year, but how many trips??

Freediver. 30 to 40 days is a lot of hunting, but how many birds??
And again, why am I not supposed to respond? Do I need to get permission from you or sunnygx or both in order to post? Let me know what the rules are and Ill try harder to get along.

What you fail to realize is that there is no connection between the amount of ground covered and the number of birds that end up getting shot at. They can run their 100 miles but in the end the birds all have to be in gun range or theres no benefit. I can run, ride a horse whatever, what really counts is how many birds get shot at. DZ's typical day is 10 to 15, mine was about 6.5 this year. If his dogs are finding so many birds why is he having to walk so much??? Because the dog finding birds does directly equate to birds getting shot! Go back and read his post.
.

DZ, Which "one" were you reffering to?
Yes my wifes weim is not at the top of the pointing class. Shes getting better but will never be great. I doubt she will make mediocre by yours or anyones standards. She does have pretty good nose. She retrieves fine by pointer standards and I can kill birds with her. She allows me and my son to both have a dog to hunt with. I got her because my wife has always wanted a weim and I figured I could get some use out of her. Better than a lot of other options. But shes nowhere near as effective as the retrievers.

I have hundreds of days afield with pointing breeds and flushing breeds in the field, hunting the same areas at the same time. Can you or anyone else here say the same?

rustyroar,
Location is very important, more important than type of dog so Ill tell you right where my friend killed those chukars. (actually all 4 of us killed limits 3 days in a row).

Do you remember where they had that big fire east of juntura last year? Well you go south and east from there with a drift to the north and then back to the west, but not too far. When youve gone far enough youll see some sagebrush, no not that sagebrush the other sagebrush. Well you follow it uphill until you get to the big rimrocks. Make sure you are hunting between 2021 feet and 7352 feet of elevation or you wont get into any birds. Dont hunt the big rimrocks, go to the smaller ones. It looks a bit different with snow on the ground but you shouldnt have any trouble finding it. If the snow is soft hunt the ridges, flats and the creekbottoms. If its crusted over, hunt the ridges , flats and creekbottoms. If there is not snow hunt creekbottoms, flats and ridges.

And dont forget to hunt that grove of junipers, most people dont think they hold there but they do. Let me know if you need more info!! Always trying to help!!

WAIT! just a minute there.... what you post above sounds an awful lot like TRAINING?!?!????

From your earlier post, you made it sound like any 4 year old lab with NO exposure to uplands could go out from the duck blind and have it figured out after one covey!!

I always like to hear the rest of the story... thanks

Now, if you are getting limits east of Juntura after a bunch of snowfall, well, I heard that ain't too tough... I got a buddy whose dad and brother run flushers and love to go that way late winter after the snow has fallen and the birds are all bunched up, holding real tight. This year they went in DEC when there was no snow and got into one covey for 5 guys and 3 dogs for 7 hours of hunting. BUT I heard from lots of pointer guys how good it was down that country this year.

I know, I know... lot's of "I heard" in there, well, that's about it. I don't get hundreds of days afield every year to hunt along side lots of different guys and breeds to test them all out.

I'm in the national guard, so I have to work at least one weekend each month, plus anything else that comes up. So I probably bird hunt 3 weekends each month, always within an hour of my house in EO, on public ODFW (not BLM) land. I'm pretty proud of my little buddy on his first season, especially with him having me as a master and trainer! So he did well in spite of all that adversity... I got limits a few times, but almost always had the opportunity at a limit of pointed birds. Just because a bird is pointed doesn't mean I'm going to hit it!!! That's a dig on me, not the dog.

anyway, I guess I'm not going to convince you of anything, and you are definitely not going to convince me that a flusher will do better at upland than a pointer of equal training and natural ability.

Good luck and have fun with your dogs.

Last edited by 47guy; 04-22-2012 at 07:34 PM. Reason: left an idea out the first time
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Old 04-22-2012, 06:33 PM   #66
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Default Re: Pigeon training

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What you fail to realize is that there is no connection between the amount of ground covered and the number of birds that end up getting shot at. They can run their 100 miles but in the end the birds all have to be in gun range or theres no benefit. I can run, ride a horse whatever, what really counts is how many birds get shot at. DZ's typical day is 10 to 15, mine was about 6.5 this year. If his dogs are finding so many birds why is he having to walk so much??? Because the dog finding birds does directly equate to birds getting shot! Go back and read his post.

Could you explain how there is no connection betweem amount of ground covered and birds shot at? I'm totally at a loss on that one, UNLESS what you are saying is that Flushers are inherently better at FINDING birds than Pointers are...


I'm thinking bird density... If there are 10 coveys in a 5 square mile area for example (example only), then the amount of ground covered would have to equate to number of birds shot at... wouldn't it? Unless your superior flushing dogs can smell birds that are 1/4 - 1/2 mile away or more.... That's what it sounds like you are saying to me. If I'm wrong, please let me know.

You said YOU keep the dogs where the birds are... could you explain that one too? Becuase I don't really know "where" the birds are, exactly... If I did, I don't think I'd even have a dog. I'd just walk to the birds and find them myself...

Me, personally, this was my first "real" year hunting chukar in Oregon. I don't have a clue where the birds are, so I let my dog do the hunting for me, not the other way around.

Anyway, if this sounds like me being a jerk to you Llama, I'm not trying, but some of the things you say just don't make sense to me. I'm not the smartest guy on ifish, so you can dumb it down for me, I'll be ok.
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Old 04-22-2012, 07:43 PM   #67
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What he failed to mention previously was that he doesn't hunt alone with one or two dogs. From what he said in his last post, he hunts with 4 guys and 3 dogs. That's a whole different deal, and not even close to a fair comparison. Four guys 50 yards apart with 3 dogs 20 yards in front make a swath appoximately 250 yards wide marching in a line. As someone, or a dog flushes birds, multiple people would be blazing away as birds scatter, giving each person way more opportunities to get birds,

One person with one flusher would struggle against another person with a good ranging pointing dog, shooting ability being equal.
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Old 04-22-2012, 07:45 PM   #68
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47: "I let the dogs do the hunting for me." Great point. Goes back to what I said way back when.... "The dog owns the birds." We are the shooters, the dog is the hunter. The wind owns the dog.
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Old 04-22-2012, 07:58 PM   #69
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47: "I let the dogs do the hunting for me." Great point. Goes back to what I said way back when.... "The dog owns the birds." We are the shooters, the dog is the hunter. The wind owns the dog.
That's the key to the argument. I have no idea how many birds we shot over my dogs this year, since I don't keep tally. I will say that I know for a fact I never got skunked. That includes trips to new country and areas I've never been to before where bird numbers seemed less than ideal and/or heavily pressured spots where they would flush 100 yds out while my dogs were on point at my feet (i.e. not my dogs busting them).
I'd be willing to bet that one on one, in fresh new country that neither hunter has ever hunted, a moderately ranging pointer would get you into (and into more shots), then a flusher that stays close by. The ONLY reason I say that is due to range and ability to cover more ground with scent.
I can't believe I even responded again to this topic......
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Old 04-22-2012, 08:14 PM   #70
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I can't believe I even responded again to this topic......
That's funny... I had a similar thought at some point earlier tonite also...

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Old 04-22-2012, 08:25 PM   #71
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The Worlds Greatest lab is not going to do as well as a Good pointer in big chukar and hun country. Just like the worlds greatest versatile dog (say shorthair since I have 2) wont be as good as a lab in the full range of retriever situations. I personally do not hunt pheasant with my pointers but if I did hunt them in brushy country I would prefer a flusher to a pointer.
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Old 04-22-2012, 08:35 PM   #72
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That's funny... I had a similar thought at some point earlier tonite also...

You guys got sucked in again.


We all need to head down to Nevada for that battle mountain chukar tournament deal and duke it out. Just need to get the flyer before it is too late this year.
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:40 PM   #73
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Pigeon training Question? I did some google search on training with pigeons and ran across this method.

Does anybody use the tethered string cardboad method sometimes called carding or kiting ?
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Old 04-23-2012, 04:30 AM   #74
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Pigeon training Question? I did some google search on training with pigeons and ran across this method.

Does anybody use the tethered string cardboad method sometimes called carding or kiting ?

I tried it once. I found it was much easier to just catch barnyard pigeons and let them fly away.

The cardboard I used at first was too large, so the pigeon could barely fly. Got it down to where it could fly about 50 yards or so, but it was a chore.

If you want fly-away pigeons, either get homers or just catch and release feral ones, would be my advice.

good luck!
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:08 AM   #75
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This post still getting lots of traffic i see!

I just pull some wing feathers and plant the pigeons at specific spots so I know when they are going to flush. They will fly but only go a few yards...get a starter gun and shoot when they flush.
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Old 04-23-2012, 02:31 PM   #76
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Default Re: Pigeon training

Back to the original question......I think that the easiest way to control the situation is with a remote launcher. Having said that a long check cord, prong collar and dizzied pigeon can work also. I would want whoa training being worked before i went with the check cord.
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Old 04-23-2012, 03:03 PM   #77
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The problem with carding and pulling feathers is the birds may not fly far enough to discourage chasing. Also if there are no trees the bird will end up on the ground and get caught by the dog. If there are trees they will land in the trees and not be caught by you. Bad for popinters or flushers.


47guy,
A dog needs these things to have a successful trip and kill lots of birds.
Some degree of birdyness,Gunbroke, wont munch birds and stop when told.
So yes you can take a retriever out of the duck blind and go hunt chukars and kill lots of birds. Ive seen it multiple times. Its actually harder to go from uplands to the duckblind!

But training does make them better.

GSPdog,
You may be right. The best pointer may do better than the best retriever.
No way to determine, thats just your opinion. Do you have the best pointer in the world??

What I am saying is that the blanket statement that by covering more ground will produce more birds for the gun is false.

Some of you apparently skipped a post or two. I dont always hunt with a group, its loads of fun, but I do very well by myself. Please try and keep up!

And the snow myth rears its head! The myth is we only do well when the snows deep and the birds are bunched. False. Very little snow this year and we did fine in groups and by myself. I like hunting in snow but not always. I have found crusted snow is harder because the birds can run easily and they cant bury and hide, So they run more or fly more or both.


Suuny,
You are learning the ways of the chukar! Reload , reload , reload!

So lets have a little discussion on "pinning". Correct me if Im wrong but the birds are supposed to "pinned" by the dog. Dog finds birds, locks up, and they hold until you arrive. So why is it the birds are flushing when your dog is holding steady? Hes not breaking, yet the birds are still flushing out of range for you?

Seems like most are blaming it on pressure. Like Freedivers example. I know its not the dogs fault. But it does lead one to conclude that "pinning" is not an exact science. It has nothing to do with the dog. It has everything to do with the birds.

Heres my perspective on freedivers example. The dog has winded the birds and locked up. Birds know the dogs there, the hunters there etc ...the birds may be sitting tight or moving away, doesnt matter...If the dog is 200 yards away from the hunter, (doesnt really matter that much how far). The birds are starting to feel the pressure. DZ will confirm this with pheasants. If you stand still the birds will eventually fly from getting too nervous.

But what if I am moving with the dog and we dont stop? We are putting pressure on the birds, but a different kind. When a pointer or a person for that matter stops, do the birds think they have been located? Does that actually set their "flight" instinct into motion? If I am still moving do they think they are safe and choose to sit tight until I am in gunrange and sometimes stepping on them? Do they feel safe longer because I am moving? I have learned over the years to not cross a ridge and as you enter the draw stop and take a break. Birds on the other side will often flush while you are standing taking your break. Best to take your break before going over and keep the dog with you. Then you can both go and keep moving, follow the dogs nose and keep the birds "pinned". Let the dog go first and those birds that are going to flush at first sight of a dog will be gone, pointer or not, and so will your shot opportuntiy.

All of the pointer crowd will have to admit that there is something besides a dog on point that allows us to get into gunrange. We kill a lot of birds. How do we do it without a pointer? By myself, in a group, snow or no snow, new place or old, doesnt matter. How can it possibly be done??

So the way I kill a lot of chukars is that covey that flushed 100 yards from freediver will let me get close enough to shoot. Which means that though his pointer found the covey, doesnt really matter if he doesnt get a shot now does it.

So put your 5 coveys in whatever area you want, I may not find them all, but I will get to shoot at as many or more, more often than not. And while I am doing it I will be enjoying the dog work just as much as anyone else.

Thats another myth. That hunting with a pointer is somehow more enjoyable than a flusher. Please...

And could someone explain why it is the pointer guys dont limit everyday if their dogs are pinning all the coveys and they are getting these easy shots???


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Old 04-23-2012, 03:56 PM   #78
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The problem with carding and pulling feathers is the birds may not fly far enough to discourage chasing. Also if there are no trees the bird will end up on the ground and get caught by the dog. If there are trees they will land in the trees and not be caught by you. Bad for popinters or flushers.


47guy,
A dog needs these things to have a successful trip and kill lots of birds.
Some degree of birdyness,Gunbroke, wont munch birds and stop when told.
So yes you can take a retriever out of the duck blind and go hunt chukars and kill lots of birds. Ive seen it multiple times. Its actually harder to go from uplands to the duckblind!

But training does make them better.

GSPdog,
You may be right. The best pointer may do better than the best retriever.
No way to determine, thats just your opinion. Do you have the best pointer in the world??

What I am saying is that the blanket statement that by covering more ground will produce more birds for the gun is false.

Some of you apparently skipped a post or two. I dont always hunt with a group, its loads of fun, but I do very well by myself. Please try and keep up!

And the snow myth rears its head! The myth is we only do well when the snows deep and the birds are bunched. False. Very little snow this year and we did fine in groups and by myself. I like hunting in snow but not always. I have found crusted snow is harder because the birds can run easily and they cant bury and hide, So they run more or fly more or both.


Suuny,
You are learning the ways of the chukar! Reload , reload , reload!

So lets have a little discussion on "pinning". Correct me if Im wrong but the birds are supposed to "pinned" by the dog. Dog finds birds, locks up, and they hold until you arrive. So why is it the birds are flushing when your dog is holding steady? Hes not breaking, yet the birds are still flushing out of range for you?

Seems like most are blaming it on pressure. Like Freedivers example. I know its not the dogs fault. But it does lead one to conclude that "pinning" is not an exact science. It has nothing to do with the dog. It has everything to do with the birds.

Heres my perspective on freedivers example. The dog has winded the birds and locked up. Birds know the dogs there, the hunters there etc ...the birds may be sitting tight or moving away, doesnt matter...If the dog is 200 yards away from the hunter, (doesnt really matter that much how far). The birds are starting to feel the pressure. DZ will confirm this with pheasants. If you stand still the birds will eventually fly from getting too nervous.

But what if I am moving with the dog and we dont stop? We are putting pressure on the birds, but a different kind. When a pointer or a person for that matter stops, do the birds think they have been located? Does that actually set their "flight" instinct into motion? If I am still moving do they think they are safe and choose to sit tight until I am in gunrange and sometimes stepping on them? Do they feel safe longer because I am moving? I have learned over the years to not cross a ridge and as you enter the draw stop and take a break. Birds on the other side will often flush while you are standing taking your break. Best to take your break before going over and keep the dog with you. Then you can both go and keep moving, follow the dogs nose and keep the birds "pinned". Let the dog go first and those birds that are going to flush at first sight of a dog will be gone, pointer or not, and so will your shot opportuntiy.

All of the pointer crowd will have to admit that there is something besides a dog on point that allows us to get into gunrange. We kill a lot of birds. How do we do it without a pointer? By myself, in a group, snow or no snow, new place or old, doesnt matter. How can it possibly be done??

So the way I kill a lot of chukars is that covey that flushed 100 yards from freediver will let me get close enough to shoot. Which means that though his pointer found the covey, doesnt really matter if he doesnt get a shot now does it.

So put your 5 coveys in whatever area you want, I may not find them all, but I will get to shoot at as many or more, more often than not. And while I am doing it I will be enjoying the dog work just as much as anyone else.

Thats another myth. That hunting with a pointer is somehow more enjoyable than a flusher. Please...

And could someone explain why it is the pointer guys dont limit everyday if their dogs are pinning all the coveys and they are getting these easy shots???


.

You are right. I am wrong. Flushers are much better at uplands than pointers. You proved it in your last post. I should have just believed you from the beginning. Thanks for setting me straight.
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Old 04-23-2012, 04:05 PM   #79
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Llama,

You still didn't answer either of my questions:

1. how does amount of ground covered NOT equate to bird opportunity?

2. YOU "keep the dog where the birds are." How do you do that, and if you know where the birds are, why do you need a dog?

I answered your question: "why don't pointer guys always get limits if they always have perfect shooting opportunities?"

A: shooting, not hitting....

I guess by your line of thinking, Flusher guys SHOOT better than Pointer guys too... so not only is your dog better, you are better too....

That's about all I've deduced from any of your posts.
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Old 04-23-2012, 04:17 PM   #80
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But what if I am moving with the dog and we dont stop? We are putting pressure on the birds, but a different kind. When a pointer or a person for that matter stops, do the birds think they have been located? Does that actually set their "flight" instinct into motion? If I am still moving do they think they are safe and choose to sit tight until I am in gunrange and sometimes stepping on them? Do they feel safe longer because I am moving? I have learned over the years to not cross a ridge and as you enter the draw stop and take a break. Birds on the other side will often flush while you are standing taking your break. Best to take your break before going over and keep the dog with you. Then you can both go and keep moving, follow the dogs nose and keep the birds "pinned". Let the dog go first and those birds that are going to flush at first sight of a dog will be gone, pointer or not, and so will your shot opportuntiy.



.

Your "theory" above that a stopped dog or dog on point will cause a covey to flight, but a moving dog or person won't doesn't hold much water. It might apply 10% of the time, or one in ten times.

I've had many instances where the dog went on point and held the birds till I got there. As the hunter approaches, the birds flush, sometimes out of range, sometimes in range. Depends on how many times they've been flushed and shot at previously. I'd doubt very hard that birds that flush at 100 yards from one hunter would sit while another hunter moves in - the only difference being what the dog is doing.

As a matter of fact, I can think of very few times the dog went on point and the birds flushed wild (or, were flushed due to the presence of the dog alone, to put it in other words.)

NOW, once a covey has been flushed and breaks up a little bit, those birds tend to sit tighter, and flush in one's, two's and three's, and would probably be great candidates for your close working, flushing dog.
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Old 04-23-2012, 06:19 PM   #81
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Your "theory" above that a stopped dog or dog on point will cause a covey to flight, but a moving dog or person won't doesn't hold much water. It might apply 10% of the time, or one in ten times.

I've had many instances where the dog went on point and held the birds till I got there. As the hunter approaches, the birds flush, sometimes out of range, sometimes in range. Depends on how many times they've been flushed and shot at previously. I'd doubt very hard that birds that flush at 100 yards from one hunter would sit while another hunter moves in - the only difference being what the dog is doing.

As a matter of fact, I can think of very few times the dog went on point and the birds flushed wild (or, were flushed due to the presence of the dog alone, to put it in other words.)

NOW, once a covey has been flushed and breaks up a little bit, those birds tend to sit tighter, and flush in one's, two's and three's, and would probably be great candidates for your close working, flushing dog.
Pretty much the same way I was gonna answer the question. I don't know how well the pinned theory holds water. I have never totally agreed with that and surely have never posted that pointers pin down the birds. I prefer nice long points I want the dog to point as far away as possible. Kinda goes against the pinning theory, not saying it is wrong but I have not had enough experience to tell me that's how it is.

If my dog goes on point the birds typically don't flush until I get there. Pretty hard to tell if the birds are more likely to flush when they see me because the dog is there or not. Unfortunately I can't get in there little devil heads. I believe if the birds have a hundred yard flush point it is not gonna matter how you come up on them they are gonna flush at 100yds. You know given your quiet and what not.

I have a hard time believing that flushers somehow hold the pressured birds better. Or that the flusher hunting method works in the favor of getting much closer to the birds than a pointer. The reason a say this is because friends of mine that hunt flushers on chukar complain about the birds flushing too soon every bit as much as I do. And these guy's are not just Joe smo's they own some of the best flushing retrievers around.

Llama you must be doing something better than everyone else because I have not met a retriever guy besides you that feels a retriever is a better chukar dog. And you couldn't pay these guys to own a pointer. I think the advantage may not be the dogs at all but may be that you are just a really good chukar hunter. I would be willing to bet most of your bag of tricks would work just as good for me over pointed birds.

Now if you could train your flushers to somehow always flush the birds toward the guns I would have to give it to you that flushers are the best.

It is two different kinds of hunting. With a pointer I have my gun broke over my shoulder, I don't have to be in a constant state of ready. And with the GPS I can be real quiet and the GPS let's me know when the dog is on point and where he is. Typically my shots are closer and easier to make assuming cooperative birds. If the birds are not cooperative I can better formulate a plan to get myself in a better place for the flush. On skiddish birds this typically means giving them a wide birth and approaching from the downhill side. They will tend to flush down hill. When there are multiple guns you can really get someone below the birds and put a hurt on em. Now I am not saying it is necessarily a better way to hunt but it is what I prefer, just as some people prefer hunting over a flusher nothing wrong with either way.

I also don't judge how good my day was by if I got a limit of birds or not. I typically weigh my day on how good the dog work was, whether or not I did my job right guning has nothing to do with how my dog did. Like Dogzilla says the dog is the hunter and we just shoot for them.
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Old 04-23-2012, 08:24 PM   #82
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No Llama, I said that the WORLDS GREATEST LAB could not out hunt a GOOD pointer in big chukar and hun country. You say that you keep your dog where the birds are. That is great but for the rest of us that are not the "Chukar Whisperer" it is nice to have a dog that covers the ground and has the instincts to seek out the areas with birds. You enjoy your dogs brand of dog work and others enjoy their dogs brand. Some people like a fast sports car and others enjoy a cruise in a Cadillac. To each their own.
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Old 04-24-2012, 02:24 PM   #83
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Hey-soos...
Update: I'll be going on a honeymoon in August, and so rather than just board the dog, we'll board him with a trainer in Bend. I went out to meet him and do a session yesterday with my dog. After asking me about our experiences and how the dog reacted to each, we put him in the fenced field with a drag rope on to see if he'd wander and search a bit. He did; that was good. The trainer went out and rounded up about 8 pigeons. Using the Delmar Smith method of a pigeon tethered to a length of hose, we got the dogs attention (rather the dog became rabid) and let the bird go while holding the cord. Dang near pulled the trainer over chasing the bird. As I expected. After that, with no cord, the trainer would hold out a pigeon so the dog could see. As the dog charged, he'd throw the bird out just out of reach (Inches it seemed) and the dog would do circles around the 2 acre field while this pigeon circled back to the barn. Each time he'd hold a pigeon out, the dog would freeze up further and further out. The trainer would have to shake the bird a bit or hide it behind him to get the dog to come running, then it would freeze. Eventually the dog would come charging and out would go the pigeon. Ok, established the the desire is there and the instinct to point is there. So, as I've heard before, no more birds. Now it's on to the "overs", learning to cast right and left to whistle and signal. Work on heel. Work on whoa with the post, and if needed the place board. The further I can get with this the more the trainer will be able to do while I'm on some island somewhere. DZ, thanks again for the materials, they'll come in handy. To the others that offered their experiences with pigeons, thanks, they'll come in handy after I have a hunting dog and will need to continue training and improving.
Enjoy the rest of the thread.
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Old 04-24-2012, 02:52 PM   #84
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Right on, glad to see you went with help from a pro. I think that's often the best way.
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Old 04-24-2012, 03:00 PM   #85
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Hey-soos...
Update: I'll be going on a honeymoon in August, and so rather than just board the dog, we'll board him with a trainer in Bend. I went out to meet him and do a session yesterday with my dog. After asking me about our experiences and how the dog reacted to each, we put him in the fenced field with a drag rope on to see if he'd wander and search a bit. He did; that was good. The trainer went out and rounded up about 8 pigeons. Using the Delmar Smith method of a pigeon tethered to a length of hose, we got the dogs attention (rather the dog became rabid) and let the bird go while holding the cord. Dang near pulled the trainer over chasing the bird. As I expected. After that, with no cord, the trainer would hold out a pigeon so the dog could see. As the dog charged, he'd throw the bird out just out of reach (Inches it seemed) and the dog would do circles around the 2 acre field while this pigeon circled back to the barn. Each time he'd hold a pigeon out, the dog would freeze up further and further out. The trainer would have to shake the bird a bit or hide it behind him to get the dog to come running, then it would freeze. Eventually the dog would come charging and out would go the pigeon. Ok, established the the desire is there and the instinct to point is there. So, as I've heard before, no more birds. Now it's on to the "overs", learning to cast right and left to whistle and signal. Work on heel. Work on whoa with the post, and if needed the place board. The further I can get with this the more the trainer will be able to do while I'm on some island somewhere. DZ, thanks again for the materials, they'll come in handy. To the others that offered their experiences with pigeons, thanks, they'll come in handy after I have a hunting dog and will need to continue training and improving.
Enjoy the rest of the thread.

Glad you found a trainer - I think you'll be happy with the results. Good luck and have fun with your dog this fall!
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Old 04-24-2012, 03:26 PM   #86
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By chance was this Gene Adams at Stormy Weather Kennels?
He helped with my pup and I have nothing but great things to say about him.
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Old 04-24-2012, 04:08 PM   #87
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Tim Curry of central oregon sporting dog.
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:14 PM   #88
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No Llama, I said that the WORLDS GREATEST LAB could not out hunt a GOOD pointer in big chukar and hun country. You say that you keep your dog where the birds are. That is great but for the rest of us that are not the "Chukar Whisperer" it is nice to have a dog that covers the ground and has the instincts to seek out the areas with birds. You enjoy your dogs brand of dog work and others enjoy their dogs brand. Some people like a fast sports car and others enjoy a cruise in a Cadillac. To each their own.

This last post finally made some sense to me and I can see where you guys are coming from. It certainly does make more sense to let the skilled dog do his thing by covering lots of ground, you just have an enjoyable walk really only needing to keep track of the dog as he covers ground
....hey ..wait a minute......That doesnt make any sense?....
If your dog is so smart and can find the birds so well, WHY DOES HE NEED TO RUN SO FAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

30 , 40 ,100 miles, shouldnt they be able to do it in a lot less miles if they know where the likely places are?

You guys really have a problem here. You claim that pointers are better because they cover so much ground. But at the same time they know where the birds are. Well which is it? This should be good!!!!

Retriever breeds have always placed higher in intelligence tests than the pointing breeds. just a fact. But as smart as they are , I am still smarter than any dog pointer or retriever. So of course I am going to make the decisions. We are a team, I am the team leader. Sometimes I pick the wrong spot.

sunny,
I am not in a constant state of ready either. As I have said in the past, most of the time the dog tells me the birds are near and also I know where they are more likely to be. When the dog gets birdy I get ready, no different than you with pointed birds. I do get surprised but you probably do too.
(And if you really want to kill birds dump the O/U, terribly inefficient.)

Pinning to me, at least in pointer terms is the dog pointing and holding the birds, doesnt really matter how far. The thought is the dog holds the birds in place by pointing.

You and 47guy still have a problem. He says the birds will only hold 10% of the time for moving hunters and dog. If only 10% of the birds are holding for me and my dog, we must be finding FAR more coveys than you guys correct? So again which is it? do birds hold just as well for a hunter with a flushing dog as they do with pointers or am I really finding far more coveys by covering far less ground? Its your choice not mine.

You have to think and answer the question. How do we guys that hunt with flushing dogs get close enough to shoot anything if my theory is not correct? Explain it to me.

Heres another example. My son shoots a limit the last day of the season in one of the most popular places in the state. Pressured birds yet they held. Explain it?

I am not saying anyone has to change what dog they hunt with. Like I said if you want to shoot pointed birds, get a pointer. I am getting to the place where a good pointer might be nice, I could ride the horse and save my feet.

All thats required is to understand that perhaps I am right about this. Really is it that hard? Why is it easier to believe that im the chukar whisperer and the best shot in the world, than it is to believe that maybe what you thought about birds was wrong?

And just so you all know, it doesnt matter whether I convince you. I only respond so that those guys that have a flushing dog will understand that they can do very well hunting upland birds with their breed of choice. I get a few PM's thanking me.


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One of the best books I ever read was Delmers. Good for you, good luck to you and your dog!


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Old 04-24-2012, 07:05 PM   #89
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Llama77,

You know, you bring up some pretty good points I hadn't really thought about. Come to think of it, I don't really think that my dog travels 30 miles in a day. I have no GPS. I don't think I probably cover much more than 5-6 miles in a day, probably more like 5. My dog might only cover 7 or 8. He's usually only 100-200 yards from me, until he goes on point, which is often, then I'm standing in front of him, so probably less than 10 miles a day for my dog.

I miss a limit most days, on top of the birds I kill, so that is actually quite a few bird contacts. Given the 100+ we killed last season, and probably at least as many that I didn't hit (I call it shoot and release...) That was probably well over 200 bird contacts for my dog. 3 weekends a month for 4 months, there's 24 days out hunting.

So, over 200 bird contacts in 24 days of hunting, at less than 10 miles covered each day by the dog... sounds like we are doing a heck of a lot better than your retreivers....

If I could hunt "hundreds" of days like you and had 2-3 dogs like you do, well, that math is pretty simple. Maybe you should get a pointer, cover LESS ground and produce MORE birds! Thanks for bringing up all those good points!!


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Old 04-24-2012, 08:17 PM   #90
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Retriever breeds have always placed higher in intelligence tests than the pointing breeds. just a fact.


All thats required is to understand that perhaps I am right about this. Really is it that hard? Why is it easier to believe that im the chukar whisperer and the best shot in the world, than it is to believe that maybe what you thought about birds was wrong?

And just so you all know, it doesnt matter whether I convince you. I only respond so that those guys that have a flushing dog will understand that they can do very well hunting upland birds with their breed of choice.


.
1. I'm not sure intelligence is necessarily a deciding factor for hunting ability. Retrievers and pointers are just asked to do different tasks and their perceived intelligence is based on their genetic breeding to enhance those tasks. I've trained, owned, hunted and trialed lots of both, and I haven't noticed much difference in intelligence, in spite of some lists claiming to list them numerically by intelligence.. I doubt my pro trainer friends would necessarily agree that intelligence ranking is a factor as well. They train both on a regular basis.

2. Pretty arrogant !! " all thats required is to understand that perhaps I'm right" . I'll still go with the belief that you're not.

3. It obviously does matter " whether I convince you " as you're working pretty darn hard at it. You're last statement is 100% dead on however. Guys with flushing dogs can hunt upland birds effectively and efficiently. No one said they can't. But they are not going to hunt chukar better or more effectively than pointing dogs.

Lastly, there is talk in recent posts about the distance pointing dogs cover in a day, talk of 30, 40, and 100 miles. That's a long ways. I think some of those distances are a pretty high guestimate. While I didn't use either GPS or ecollars with my flushing dogs, I do with my setters. They usually run to 100 -400 yards out and move along pretty good, but 15 miles, at absolute most 20, on the rocks and cliffs is about all their feet need in a day, maybe more if the terrain is easy and dirt. If you're going to hunt them multiple days, you can't run them into the ground. I would guess my flushing dogs I used to hunt covered probably 1 1/2 to 2 times what I covered, similar to Llama77"s. Hunting alone, which I prefer, or with one other person, they would quarter to the front .

I was going to shut my mouth and not get sucked in again, but I did it.

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Old 04-24-2012, 08:25 PM   #91
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Your right Llama, retrievers are the best dogs in the world. And the only thing more retarded than a pointer is they guys that own em.
Be proud of the fact you have worn be down to the place where I am done talking about it. I would prefer not to continue this conversation until the battle mountain chukar tournament this fall. I would be happy to open the table back up for conversation over dinner and a beer after the weigh in.

Hunting with a pointer is what I like to do. In the uplands and in the duck blind. I should not have to justify that to anyone. It is legal and we do just fine at it. And at the end of the day I could give a rats bottom on if someone agrees with it or not. Maybe someone feels they have to justify hunting the uplands with a retriever, I think that is what this is really about. Someone has gotten flak all there life for hunting uplands with a retriever and now they want to stick it to us.
I am sure I get made fun all the time because I use a pointer in the duck blind but I don't try to give those guys a hard time about it.

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Old 04-24-2012, 08:36 PM   #92
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If I was a better shot, I would bet serious money on a chukar hunt with my pointers.....but in the end, my shooting is the biggest handicap in my chukar hunts, not the dogs. Heck, I'm still up for the challenge....I'll be your huckleberry.....
By the way, we average 8 miles a day for the 2 legged hunters, and the dogs do 20-25 miles on average. That is some rough country too, not flat uplands. We are up and down all day and make 2,500 to 3,000 ft elevation gains/losses each day. That's GPS numbers, not guesses.

Oh, and in case you think my proposal of a wager is boasting, it's not. I really could care less who has the better dogs, I just really enjoy watching dogs work, and as long as I'm out in the chukar hills, I'm happy. I could care less about birds in the hand. I really would like to see a good retriever/flusher work the chukar hills. I'm sure they can do really well, but it remains to be seen by me!

The idea of pinning the birds with a combination of dog and human walking vs a dog stopped on point and having a human walking to flush doesn't hold any water in my experiences either. There's plenty of times a covey will flush while both the hunters and the pointers are on the move. It's just a matter of pressured birds in terrain where they can get a good look at you coming. Some days it happens, and then I can go back to the same spot a week later and the covey will hold. It's just part of the game.

Oh yeah, and I like remote launchers for pigeon training! Forgot what we were actually talking abut here.....I tried the foot release traps but wasn't a big fan. They work ok but not the best.
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:49 AM   #93
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I realize as a humble flushing dog guy that I probably don't have the right to post in a thread with you superior ponting dog guys, but one o fthe things we have done to cut down on the chasing around of chukar is to get a good idea of when they go to water and hunt near those areas at those times. There are a few other tricks we use to not have to walk all over Hells half acre trying to find birds, but I can't give away everything.
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:58 AM   #94
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If you're going to the Battle Mountain tournament this year, let me know. I'll split gas. It sounds like a good event.

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Your right Llama, retrievers are the best dogs in the world. And the only thing more retarded than a pointer is they guys that own em.
Be proud of the fact you have worn be down to the place where I am done talking about it. I would prefer not to continue this conversation until the battle mountain chukar tournament this fall. I would be happy to open the table back up for conversation over dinner and a beer after the weigh in.

Hunting with a pointer is what I like to do. In the uplands and in the duck blind. I should not have to justify that to anyone. It is legal and we do just fine at it. And at the end of the day I could give a rats bottom on if someone agrees with it or not. Maybe someone feels they have to justify hunting the uplands with a retriever, I think that is what this is really about. Someone has gotten flak all there life for hunting uplands with a retriever and now they want to stick it to us.
I am sure I get made fun all the time because I use a pointer in the duck blind but I don't try to give those guys a hard time about it.
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:12 AM   #95
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If you're going to the Battle Mountain tournament this year, let me know. I'll split gas. It sounds like a good event.
Sure thing, been wanting to go for awhile now. Found out the exact date like 2 days before last year so I couldn't go. Seems like they kinda keep it on the down low. Hopefully I can get the date a little sooner this year.
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:23 AM   #96
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I realize as a humble flushing dog guy that I probably don't have the right to post in a thread with you superior ponting dog guys, but one o fthe things we have done to cut down on the chasing around of chukar is to get a good idea of when they go to water and hunt near those areas at those times. There are a few other tricks we use to not have to walk all over Hells half acre trying to find birds, but I can't give away everything.
In case you missed the gist of the conversation, it was Llama77 who has continually put down pointing dogs, insinuating that retrievers and flushers, specifically his, are superior to pointing dogs for chukar hunting. I don't think anyone was putting down flushing dogs or chukar hunting with them. Your posts are appreciated.

I have an aquaintance who lives in Battle Mountain, and paricipates in the Battle Mountain Chukar tournament. If anyone wants to know the dates, I can email him to see if he knows. I think it's usually about the first weekend in november.

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Old 04-25-2012, 09:06 AM   #97
Sunnygx
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Salem, Or
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Default Re: Pigeon training

Quote:
Originally Posted by 47sgs View Post

I have an aquaintance who lives in Battle Mountain, and paricipates in the Battle Mountain Chukar tournament. If anyone wants to know the dates, I can email him to see if he knows. I think it's usually about the first weekend in november.
Yes, let us know when it is. Pm is fine.
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:26 PM   #98
DogZilla15
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Default Re: Pigeon training

Wanted to go last year but the long tails in ND were a callin'. Maybe this year.
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:10 PM   #99
llama77
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Default Re: Pigeon training

Because my decades of experience runs contrary to commonly held beliefs does not make me arrogant. It makes me confident. Failing to acknowledge an alternative is arrogant. Please show me the quote where I said my dogs were better than anyone elses?

I have not asked anyone to justify how they hunt or what they hunt with, I have asked you to justify conflicting points so to speak.

Freediver, If i could shoot better I would wager also! Work wont allow me to battle mountain this year or next. But how about 2014?

I would ask you to consider your example of the birds flushing wild one more time and see if you can see what I see. We , like you often have birds flush wild. But consider this: with the exception of a few pointed birds, every chukar I have ever shot allowed me and a dog to get within gunrange, often very close. So you can see that we dont need a bird to be pointed to get it to hold or be "pinned" until I get there. What I very politely ask you to consider is this, what were those chukars thinking? I believe the instant the dog stopped they knew they were spotted. Their "flight"clock started ticking. As you walked up it caused the clock to tick faster, they got too nervous and so they flushed. Why do they often hold tighter after being flushed? Because they only have a few options. Flying didnt work, so they try sitting to see if we walk by. Good deal for pointers or flushers right?

So how do we get close to so many birds? I believe the chukars really would rather not fly. Flying is dangerous on several fronts. So for them they often choose to sit tight and hope the danger walks by. Or they climb the mountain. But their flight clock, though it started running the second they saw or heard us, hasnt really started ticking as fast. They dont fly everytime they see a coyote. Whether Im right or wrong about whats in their feathered heads doesnt really matter. What is relevant is a large percentage of birds will hold tight for a moving guy and a dog. That just cannot be argued. Thats why we dont have to find more coveys than you to still be as succesful. If you only wanted to count "finds" then you probably would clean my clock. But when it comes to shootable birds its a different story.

So couldnt it just be possible that we do well because the birds hold well for us with our dogs? If you say no, then the only other alternative is that we are finding far more coveys than you, we probably arent but thats really the only two alternatives. This isnt saying your dogs are bad or mine are better is it? It is just looking at the evidence and seeing the solution.

Does this mean you should sell your pointer? Nope. It just means when someone asks about hunting chukars with a flushing dog the correct answer is that "one can do very well with a flushing dog. But if you want to shoot pointed birds and enjoy watching a dog running freely covering lots of ground, look at one of the pointing breeds." Because that is the truth. Saying that you "need" a big running dog is false.

Hope to join you at Battle mountain some day. I suspect that it wouldnt matter how well I did, most here, not you necesarily would still not accept the results.

Since this has once again come down to name calling, not on your part, this will be my last comment on this thread.

Hopefully the OP got his answer and learned a few other things along the way.
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