Steelhead Indicator

[byproxy]

I'm sure there's a whole big debate on whether or not one should use an indicator when fishing for steelhead.

I haven't used one thus far... but thought I might give it a try. Maybe it'll help maybe not. Just wanna try it out. Will help my aging eyeballs to see where I am in the water anyway!! LOL

What I'm not sure about is where to place the indicator. I'm running a WF ST line (10' of ST) and a 9' tapered leader. Right now, ugly bug goes on end of leader and then I run a prince 18" off the bug.

That said, where would I want to run the indicator in this setup? I was thinking right at the start of the ST section of line but wasn't sure.

Thanks for the help!!

[Pelhament]

I like to run my indicator so my flies are sitting about 5-6" off the river bottom. Steelhead can't look down so there is no reason to pass the fly underneath them. On most rivers I fish I run my indicator anywhere from 3 to 8 feet from the dropper fly.

[byproxy]

sweet. thanks!

so if the indicator floats... and i run it 8feet or so from the dropper fly, that puts it just about at the end/tip of my ST line. should i switch from the WFST line to a straight WF line?

i ask because it seems like the ST would kind of mess up the indicator if i ran it at the very end of that section of line.

[Pelhament]

By ST do you mean sink tip? I wouldn't use an indicator with a sink tip setup, I would go with a floating line.

[Djflyfish]

Originally Posted by Pelhament

By ST do you mean sink tip? I wouldn't use an indicator with a sink tip setup, I would go with a floating line.

I would run that indicator by the end of your dryline

[byproxy]

thanks gents. i'm wondering when the sinking tip (ST) is appropriate. sounds like the winter run might be down lower than the spring run??

should i stick with my ST setup for the winter months and get a regular floating line for the warmer months?

[WaterDonkey]

I was under the impression you'd use the sink tip if you were doing a down and across (swing) presentation. That way the fly gets down to where the fish are while keeping your line tight. Adjust your weights/sink tip/mends to get the fly exactly where you think the fish are.

Use the indicator with your floating line and treat it the same way you would as if you were nymphing for trout.

[richleblanc48]

It sounds as if you are trying to nymph with your sink tips...

You will want a dry line if you are nymphing (any time of year) with an indicator.

To answer your question (and this is just my opionion), I like to use sink tips throughout the winter when the fish don't move quite as much, in the summer on the really bright/sunny days and in bigger fast water.

My sink tips are used for swinging only.

[SSPey]

there was a time when an "indicator" was just that - an indicator - and it didn't necessarily float. You could have an indicator anywhere on any flyline, floating or submerged, with the intent of looking at the indicator for any hesitation that might indicate a take. Hence the term "strike indicator." You can certainly use an indicator with a sinking line if used with that intent, but it won't necessarily float. A small piece of bright colored yarn is an example.

however ... among the newest generation of anglers, the term "indicator" has become functionally synonymous with bobber. If you are using a bobber, then use it with the floating line as suggested above.

[byproxy]

okay... i'm new to flyfishing so y'all are tossing a lot of terminology at me here that i don't quite understand. LOL

what i'm doing is bank fishing (well... i'm wading out a bit of course... but i mean i'm not in a boat). i'm casting out, letting fly(s) float down river, and then pulling the line back in... repeat as long as necessary. hehehe. I'm using a WF line with a sinking tip. i have a 9ft rod and run a 9ft tapered leader. i'm using a stone fly (copper jon) on the end of the leader and then tying a prince (nymph?) 18" off the jon.

am i swinging or nymphing? LOL

stay with sink tip for the winter? yay-nay on the indicator?

sorry for the question. just trying to learn. thanks!

[Pelhament]

You may be doing both. With nymphing you usually cast upstream and let the fly "dead drift" downstream where the flies are floating naturally with the current (not faster, not slower) and with swinging your are usually casting downstream at a 45 degree angle and let the flies swing down and across the current until your line is parrallel with the bank. Some like to do both by letting their flies dead drift then swing down and across the current which it sounds like you may be doing.

An indicator is helpful when dead drifting to determine strikes, and normally used with just a floating line. You can also let your flies swing across the current at the end of your drift with an indicator. If you want to strictly swing your flies down and across the current I would ditch the indicator and utilize the sink tip depending on the depth and current speed.

Hope that helps.

[byproxy]

thanks!! you're exactly right. i'm doing both. generally i'm casting slightly upstream and dead drifting as far as i can downstream. once i run out of line to feed out i let the line swing back towards the bank until it's parellel. sometimes i'll even let it set that way for a few seconds... then i pull the line in and start over.

sounds like with the type of fishing i'm doing, i should lose the sink tip and get an indicator.

i've been meaning to get another spool for my reel anyway. rather than strip the line of my existing spool, i may just keep it and get another spool of just floating line.

thanks for the info!!!

[Steelie Mike]

This might help you in your adventure: Steelhead Nymphing Strategies

[WaterDonkey]

Originally Posted by Maupinate

Get a spinning rod and a West Coast float. Tie a jig on and you'll have the same thing only a lot less unwieldy.

I think a fly line gives you more control.

All in all, I'd recommend a float line if it's the only one you're going to have. You can can drift it and swing it at any level by adding or removing external weights.

And personally, I just use the tip of my fly line where it meets my leader as the indicator. If it moves or does anything unusual, just set the hook.

[byproxy]

Originally Posted by Maupinate

Get a spinning rod and a West Coast float. Tie a jig on and you'll have the same thing only a lot less unwieldy.

ya... but i love flyfishing!! heheheh.

[byproxy]

Originally Posted by Steelie Mike

This might help you in your adventure: Steelhead Nymphing Strategies

that was an awesome article!! thanks a ton!!!

[Maupinate]

Originally Posted by byproxy

ya... but i love flyfishing!! heheheh.

If you did you wouldn't use an indicator hehehe

[Pelhament]

Some of us who fly fish aren't dbag elitists who force what we think is right on others.

[JRV]

Originally Posted by Pelhament

Some of us who fly fish aren't dbag elitists who force what we think is right on others.

Well said. What does useing an indicator have to do with not fly fishing. Last time I checked when I use and indicator I'm useing a fly rod, fly line, and reel, I'm tossing bugs just the same as you. whats the difference????

If you want to limit your self to one way of fishing with a fly rod thats cool but don't be a ***** to people who are trying to learn how to catch a fish with a fly rod!!!

[byproxy]

thanks pel and jrv. i've found that with ANY hobby, there's always people who take the elitist position. they think their way is the best way, and mock others if they do anything different or use anything different.

you can talk with these ppl until you're blue in the face... it'll never change anything. i've found it best to simply ignore them.

actually one of the things that kept me from getting into fly fishing for a long time was the pre-conception that every fly fisherman was an elitist *******. fortunately, as we've seen here, and i very quickly learned, this isn't the case at all. indeed, the vast majority of fly fisherman (and women) i've encountered are super cool folks.

thanks again for the info!!! again, that article was awesome... as were all the tips (well... most of them anyway. hehehe)

[steelymann]

What ever happen to the ol' school way of nymphing for steelhead without the indicator?? The Lieshinger lift I believe it was called. You learned how to read your line and the way the water manipulated it to detect strikes. Extremely effective and puts the learning curve at a whole new angle. You learn the subtle skill of having the "touch" on your rod. To know that a fish has taken your fly before the line goes tight. I think many of us look for the quick solution for the easy fish but miss the things that would truely make one good at the craft. Not an "elitist" thing, just a skill building thing. My learning how to nymph on the east coast stream (3 years there, west coast born and bred!) made it so much easier to put the skill to use for steelhead. Just a thought.

[AndyK]

Originally Posted by steelymann

What ever happen to the ol' school way of nymphing for steelhead without the indicator?? The Lieshinger lift I believe it was called. You learned how to read your line and the way the water manipulated it to detect strikes. Extremely effective and puts the learning curve at a whole new angle.

The Leisenring lift is good for short line nymphing, but is not very practical when fishing longer distances. The book (long out of print) is excellent!

[Pelhament]

Originally Posted by AndyK

The Leisenring lift is good for short line nymphing, but is not very practical when fishing longer distances.

Agreed if you can feed 60-75 additional feet of line out during a drift and detect a strike without an indicator I will bow at your feet and look up to you as a god. Elitist or not

[steelymann]

Originally Posted by Pelhament

Agreed if you can feed 60-75 additional feet of line out during a drift and detect a strike without an indicator I will bow at your feet and look up to you as a god. Elitist or not

I'm not saying that at all. It just seems that we as fisherman have moved towards the quickest way to things (ifish, internet, every bell and whistle on my vest) and we miss the PROCESS which would make us all better fisherman. And I usually nymph deep pockets before swinging them.

[Slow and Low]

here we go again.

[WaterDonkey]

If you're going to use an indicator, why not just use a bait caster with a bobber?

[byproxy]

it's not your opinion of indicators that makes you an elitist... it's the manner in which you mock others (apparently) for fishing differently from the way you do... or prefer a different method.

i'm not going to get in an argument with you about indicators or not... i'm too new to the sport to have a solid opinion. i just wanted to try one and was asking for some advice.

you trash talking me, an obviously newbie, for wanting to try out something new makes you the elitist... not whether or not you think using one is appropriate or not. there were much better ways to go about it if you wanted to suggest otherwise.

just an FYI

Originally Posted by Maupinate

Precisely!
I'm not an elitist and take offense to people using this as some sort of derogatory term.
Indicators, steelhead "lifters" and glo-bugs are a short cut to fly fishing success. No one has the patience to learn through years of trial and error but want instant gratification. I no longer participate in fly swaps because at least half of the flies I would receive were these gimmick flies that required the use of a bobber. I threw them away!
Bill McMillan was able to take winter steelhead on a dry line without having to use an indicator so did that make him an elitist?
The use of a bobber on a spey rod is even more puzzling..

[mini-e]

I tied an October caddis 7' behind a clear bobber and flung it 80' across the Klickitat with my 9.5' spinning rod a couple weeks ago reaching some what looked like hip hoppity coho. I used to fish for trout with the same basic set-up a couple dozen years ago, and I thought, Hey why not!?!? Then it occurred to me that although I thought I was having a really good time I probably was not. Things can get so complicated. Was I wrong?

[Pelhament]

I guess what confuses me the most is why open up a topic about indicators, let alone reply, if you don't use them. How are you going to offer helpful advice on a technique that you refuse to use. Instead of offering advice on the question at hand you try to make the person feel inferior and wrong for fishing the way they want to. Doesn't make sense and is definitely not helpful. Good luck with your fishing endeavors byproxy, do what's fun for you and don't let the rest of these guys bring you down.

[WaterDonkey]

For the record, I did try to give some honest advice (post #15).

I used an indicator a couple of times but they ended up being more of a hassle than anything. Try a dry-dropper setup. A large parachute/terrestrial with a nymph hanging off of it. Then at least a fish might grab your dry fly (indicator).

All in all, if someone gets into fly fishing using an indicator and in turn goes out and supports their local shop, great.

There's more pressing issues, like snaggers, that deserve this much attention.

[seasport24]

[QUOTE=Maupinate;2808520]Precisely!
I'm not an elitist and take offense to people using this as some sort of derogatory term.

While I think that many can appreciate your perspectives and respect the skill level and mastery attained (Steelymann as well), the manner which you convey these perspectives has an heir of condesension that most people do not like, hence the "elitist" designation.

Perhaps a different approach, not unlike Steelymann's, would yeild a better result, and actually stimulate both novice and experienced fly anglers to consider your perspectives, which I actually think are valid, IMHO.

[Newbs]

Gentlemen......

I always brag to the moderators about how the fly-fishing board never needs moderating. There are some posts here that are pretty close to the line. Let's do our best to disagree with a bit of mutual respect.

Often, a post can be misread and offense taken when none is intended... going overboard to be respectful is always a good policy. I'm not going to remove any post here but... going forward...let’s please leave words like elitist and dirt bag out of the conversation. If you have to use **** to hide your words then you are probably saying something you should not.

Thanks,

Newbs

[jdougher]

"I haven't used one thus far... but thought I might give it a try. Maybe it'll help maybe not. Just wanna try it out. Will help my aging eyeballs to see where I am in the water anyway!! LOL"

If you stick with indicators you might want to soak them in RainX. Treated they ride high for a long time.

[K-sigfish]

What has worked extremely well for me in the past is to paint or dye the last foot of your fly line a very contrasting color to the line itself. Chartruese, if your line isn't that color already, folowed by Orange and White work really well and are easy to spot in high glare conditions when the sun is low in the sky. If you really want to make it visible tape off 3 inch sections for about the last two feet and spray paint it LIGHTLY. The alternating color is very visible even on a sink tips and me has not made a lick of difference in spooking fish. I have used this technique for floating and sink tip lines very successfully and it's much nicer to cast and fish than a big floating strike indicator. The only exception to this that I make is when nymphing big bugs in shallower water as the floating indicator allows me to suspend my offering and lose fewer bugs. Thats my take it or leave it.

[WaterDonkey]

Originally Posted by K-sigfish

What has worked extremely well for me in the past is to paint or dye the last foot of your fly line a very contrasting color to the line itself. Chartruese, if your line isn't that color already, folowed by Orange and White work really well and are easy to spot in high glare conditions when the sun is low in the sky. If you really want to make it visible tape off 3 inch sections for about the last two feet and spray paint it LIGHTLY. The alternating color is very visible even on a sink tips and me has not made a lick of difference in spooking fish. I have used this technique for floating and sink tip lines very successfully and it's much nicer to cast and fish than a big floating strike indicator. The only exception to this that I make is when nymphing big bugs in shallower water as the floating indicator allows me to suspend my offering and lose fewer bugs. Thats my take it or leave it.

What do you use for the dye?

[K-sigfish]

I have used food coloring with vinegar before with mild success but I found that marker paint like what loggers and road crews use with a top coat of clear laquer holds up the best. FYI I always tie a leader loop or length of shock leader on with a nail knot and then paint that way you are not having to try and tie on new leaders to the painted material.

[WaterDonkey]

Originally Posted by K-sigfish

I have used food coloring with vinegar before with mild success but I found that marker paint like what loggers and road crews use with a top coat of clear laquer holds up the best. FYI I always tie a leader loop or length of shock leader on with a nail knot and then paint that way you are not having to try and tie on new leaders to the painted material.

Thanks. I'll give it a try.

[Steelie Mike]

Originally Posted by WaterDonkey

If you're going to use an indicator, why not just use a bait caster with a bobber?

I copied this from a post Ed Ward put on speypages a while back. It pretty much covers my view on the subject.

Originally Posted by Riveraddict

I like fishing/casting with "Speyrods" because number one, the casting is very pleasurable for me, far more so than casting a spinrod, a baitcasting rig, even a singlehanded flyrod. It takes more personal involvement, commitment and skill to cast a "Speyrod" consistently well than any of the previously mentioned methods, therefore it is more mentally stimulating. Number two, I find it much more enjoyable to fight fish when using any type of flygear because doing so involves using a single action type of reel, which also takes more personal involvement and commitment to become good at using and therefore the added challenge makes it also more mentally stimulating and satisfying. I do not use a "Speyrod" to fulfill any moral or ethical standard, or to try and emulate anything from the past.

When using my Speyrod I would prefer to catch my fish on the swung fly because feeling the "take", "pull", or "grab" is my ultimate thrill in flyfishing, plus knowing that I actually moved the fish to my fly rather than vice-versa, putting my fly on the fish, adds a great sense of personal accomplishment to the whole experience.

But, there are times/conditions/circumstances under which the viability of a swungfly approach drops below my personal standards of expectations. At such times, I have/will fish other methods/techniques on my Speyrod as long as it is legal and falls within the ideals of "fair chase (sporting)" to do so, because it is/can be FUN, and it is interesting to see what can in fact be accomplished with a Speyrod. Bobbers are great on a Speyrod when needed and shouldn't be so controversial in my opinion. Heck, what will you all think when word gets out that SOME of us actually cast/use small ultralight SPOONS on our Speyrods to catch the infamous non-fly-biting silvers of the northern Sound area (once they get in the rivers for a couple of days).

[WaterDonkey]

Originally Posted by Steelie Mike

I copied this from a post Ed Ward put on speypages a while back. It pretty much covers my view on the subject.

To each their own.

[PTS]

Thanks, steelie mike, for your post as it expresses my feelings on the subject exactly. Let's make sure we get out for Winter steel some this season. Won't be long and I wll hit SW WA, then the Sandy, Clack and Alsea.

[byproxy]

I'm with you on this one for sure. I went out yesterday and realized I got too small of an indicator (got the smallest yarn indicator I could find and it was just sinking) and so pulled it off right away.

With my new floating line, which is sort of a pale green color (as opposed to the more brightly colored green of my previous line), I was having a hell of a time seeing where I was in the water!!

I'm very interested in this coloring of the end of the line that someone mentioned. I'm not clear though on the paint used. It sounds like the gentleman who posted before is just using regular marking spray paint??? This doesn't damage the line??

Originally Posted by jdougher

"I haven't used one thus far... but thought I might give it a try. Maybe it'll help maybe not. Just wanna try it out. Will help my aging eyeballs to see where I am in the water anyway!! LOL"

If you stick with indicators you might want to soak them in RainX. Treated they ride high for a long time.

[Newbs]

Originally Posted by Newbs

Gentlemen......

I always brag to the moderators about how the fly-fishing board never needs moderating. There are some posts here that are pretty close to the line. Let's do our best to disagree with a bit of mutual respect.....

I guess I won't be bragging for a while now... We have had to edit some posts and remove some others. Please keep your discusion and comments polite and civil.

Mod Board

[steelymann]

Sorry for getting things muddied. I wasn't trying to impart a purist ideal, just a back to basics approach to make people better at their hobby (addiction). As an ex-teacher and biomechanics person, success is in the foundation of our skill level. Once we try to move past the basic foundations of a skill without mastery, we never truly master that skill. Sorry for getting people fired up, wasn't my intention.

[NCL]

I have read a number of discussions regarding this issue along with the other topic of dry veruses nymph which usually ends up the same way. There seems to be two factors that the poster never seem to consider, first, it seems most new people to a sport are a product of those that are instructing them in how to perform the task. When I started steelhead fishing with a fly a few years ago the guy I was with only used an indicator so that was the way I fished because that was how he taught me. Second, as we progress through the sport we evolve and want greater challenges or new methods,which is why some read this boards is to obtain new knowledge. In my own experience I have caught steelhead using an indicator and have the confidence that I can continue to catch them using that method. So now I am starting to try to learn how to swing a fly, I have tried it a few times but I am not confident in that method. I don't fish with anyone that uses the swing method so I must rely on trial and error, asking questions of how to do it when I come across those that use that method, and reading these boards to try to figure out how to achieve success. I eventually will maybe obtain a modicum of success swinging a fly then it will on to a new challenge such as a waking fly, spey casting, or maybe just better casting. It is the journey that is the fun part.

Byproxy,

Try the Thingamabobber or Boles indicators those seem to work best for me.

[richleblanc48]

This is what this thread needs!

http://www.ifish.net/board/showpost....23&postcount=2

byproxy, PM me if you are near SW WA and want to fish. Your way or mine...we both might learn something!

Rich

[byproxy]

thanks gents!! had i known it was a hot button topic, i may have avoided asking the question in the first place. hehehe. it was my ignorance that got me in trouble here i suppose. i just had never used an indicator, saw others using them, am new to the sport, so thought i might give one a try.

anyway, i'll look into those indicators you mentioned. i tried out some yarn indicators this weekend and wasn't very impressed. i still had a hard time seeing them once they drifted down river a bit. perhaps the thingamabobber or boles will be the ticket!!

will do rich. thanks for the offer!

[30aught6]

Originally Posted by byproxy

it was my ignorance that got me in trouble here i suppose....

Be legal. Have fun. If you catch fish, even better.

[C-lice]

Originally Posted by byproxy

thanks gents!! had i known it was a hot button topic, i may have avoided asking the question in the first place. hehehe. it was my ignorance that got me in trouble here i suppose. i just had never used an indicator, saw others using them, am new to the sport, so thought i might give one a try.

anyway, i'll look into those indicators you mentioned. i tried out some yarn indicators this weekend and wasn't very impressed. i still had a hard time seeing them once they drifted down river a bit. perhaps the thingamabobber or boles will be the ticket!!

will do rich. thanks for the offer!

The following is a PM I sent to another ifisher this summer. Some of it might be helpful in terms of technique. While I don't use indicators, they would definitely work with the method I describe.

I fish the North Umpqua, so I tie them without added weight. This means I need a heavy hook. I use the Mustad 7970 in size 1 exclusively. Look at the Bill McMillan chapter in your book, specifically the entries about the Washougal Olive and the Paint Brush. Bill does a better job extoling the virtues of the 7970 than I ever could. If I had my druthers I would weight them and fish them in size 4 or 2.

I fish it on a floating line and a 12-14 foot leader with a 1x fluorocarbon tippet. My casts are usually 30-40 feet and pretty much straight upstream. After the initial cast, I mend upstream once the fly line has drifted about 15 feet. This stacks the fly line more or less directly over the fly, which helps to achieve a dead drift. As the fly and line continue to drift toward me, I strip in the slack line until it is straight across from me. As it passes me, I feed it back out. Depending on what kind of little micro-currents you're dealing with, there may be some more mending to do, but not much. The key is to dead drift it, and mends make the fly dart around.

I don't use a strike indicator, but the technique is about the same, I think. The way I fish, strikes are felt about 1/5 of the time and visual (the line stops, dives, it goes upstream) 4/5 of the time.

I really don't flyfish for winter steelhead. I'm not a flyfisherman in the typical sense of the word. It just so happens (seriously--do NOT let anyone tell you different) that summer steelhead are easier to catch on flies than on just about any other tackle, unless you fish at a hatchery stacking hole or some place similar.

As far as colors go, I usually keep it dark except that I'll go with a little dab of fluorescent orange or green once in a while. I don't think the specific color makes as much difference as the tone. These flies should be dark. I don't try to 'march the hatch' with these, I just want them to look like random general bugs. My most common colors are black and several different shades of brown. Yarn, chenille, dubbing...It's all the same.

I tend to tie longer legs on my ugly bugs than most people do. I don't know whether it matters or not. I just prefer 1 1/2 or 2 inches of leg/antennae flopping around.

Anyhow, I'm always glad to share what I know about techniques. There are a lot of people who make flyfishing out to be a lot more difficult than it is. Steelhead live on the bottom. When they're hungry, they eat bugs. It's not rocket surgery. Once you figure out how to get your fly deep and recognize strikes, you're in great shape.

[BeadHead]

Indicator threads always brings out the worst in Fly Fishing forums... There are lots of methods to each his own. Some great info here thanks.

[wapiteaser]

Why use an indicator? I learned to fish without them and watch my fly line to let me know when a fish hit. Using the indicator is a no brainer. Like using a bobber out lake fishing or something. All you are doing is casting and letting the indicator tell you when you have a fish. Not fun for me.

[salmonslug]

Wow, it would seem that most of the responses are not about the original question (surprise, surprise). I got bored wading through them...

In case nobody mentioned it, a good rule of thumb that has worked for me is to set the indicator ("bobber," if you prefer) about 2-3x the depth of the water you are fishing. As the saying goes, "if you are not occasionally snagging bottom, you aren't fishing."

[AndyK]

Originally Posted by salmonslug

Wow, it would seem that most of the responses are not about the original question (surprise, surprise). I got bored wading through them...

I agree.