Record numbers of Coho pass Willy Falls

[KevinsDriftboat]

I expect some to explore the new habitat we are monitoring closely!



http://www.dfw.state.or.us/news/2009...ber/091809.asp

[07clackapramowner]

Its going to be interesting to see just how many show up above the falls this year......

[stlhdrgrn]

I may need to go on an exploring walk in the morning.

[Drachir]

That's very exciting news and a big change from what us South Valley folks usually hear.

[Fishtail]

Originally Posted by Drachir

That's very exciting news and a big change from what us South Valley folks usually hear.

Hammer time baby

[mkwerx]

Woot - maybe some o' dem hos will make it up into Gales Creek again this year. That could make for some October fun.

[12pulls]

Originally Posted by mkwerx

Woot - maybe some o' dem hos will make it up into Gales Creek again this year. That could make for some October fun.

Is it even open to fish for coho's?

[veilside180sx]

Originally Posted by 12pulls

Is it even open to fish for coho's?

Sure is.=)

Gales Creek (Tualatin River tributary,
Washington Co.) from mouth upstream to
NW Clapshaw Hill Road in Gales Creek
• Angling restricted to artificial flies and lures.
• Open for coho salmon Aug. 1-Oct. 31.

[mkwerx]

And I'm guessing because the regs don't say fin clipped coho - if you catch a non clipper (the few that return to that stream) then they're fair game to bonk and eat also, correct?

[Lobster Man]

Originally Posted by mkwerx

And I'm guessing because the regs don't say fin clipped coho - if you catch a non clipper (the few that return to that stream) then they're fair game to bonk and eat also, correct?

Thats how I understand it.

[KevinsDriftboat]

Correct,
I will be bonking unclipped Coho above the falls(Dam), but probably not the ones that are going up the Tualatin later in the season. They are more likely actual native and of wild origin.

[CatFishSlim]

Originally Posted by KevinsDriftboat

Correct,
I will be bonking unclipped Coho above the falls(Dam), but probably not the ones that are going up the Tualatin later in the season. They are more likely actual native and of wild origin.

Could you elaborate a little? I thought there were no "native" coho above the falls, and all passing now are decendants of hatchery stocked fish.

[BigHook]

What are all the rivers above the falls that get a run?
I've been told the Santiam systems get a few.
The Molalla get a very good run?

[12pulls]

The Tualatin historically has a small native silver run.

[eggzit]

Yeah, what rivers? The only large rivers i know of are the moloala santiam mckenzie and willamette.

[mkwerx]

Yeah, the Tualatin and it's feeders have historical runs of salmon and steelhead. It's a falsehood that all the salmon above the falls are hatchery progeny. I bleev that the Yamhill system also has a history of silver and steel in her waters.

[stlhdrgrn]

Took a tough walk to the mouth of the molalla this morning in the rain. Lots of stinging nettle on the overgrown trail. No sign of any coho at the mouth. No current or defined holding area that I could see. No sign up the Molalla either, very shallow and wide up to the powerlines.

[KevinsDriftboat]

I checked the mouth of the Tualatin, nothing jumping there.

[CatFishSlim]

Originally Posted by mkwerx

Yeah, the Tualatin and it's feeders have historical runs of salmon and steelhead. It's a falsehood that all the salmon above the falls are hatchery progeny. I bleev that the Yamhill system also has a history of silver and steel in her waters.

So why would ODFW promote eliminating the up river "native" coho stocks?

[KevinsDriftboat]

Where did you hear or read that?

Originally Posted by CatFishSlim

So why would ODFW promote eliminating the up river "native" coho stocks?

[Shanel]

I understand what he is saying, usually that is what they mean when they say keep ones that are not clipped.

[Derrel]

ODFW put out a bulletin just a couple of days ago, touting the coho fishery opportunities above Willamette Falls...talking about the three fish daily limit and emphasizing the angling opportunities this expected record run will offer.

I thought the entire premise was exceedingly weak, considering how many miles of rivers and creeks there are, a run size of say 7,000 to even 10,000 or more coho over the Falls but distributed throughout the many miles of rivers and creeks of the mid-Willamette Valley just does not seem to me like much of a fishing opportunity for the general public,especially given the fickle nature of coho salmon this far inland and away from saltwater,and the poor public access found on many mid-Valley tributaries of the Willamette.

I don't know if ODFW's anticipated all-time modern record of 17,000 coho or more over WIllamette Falls will materialize...it might materialize. I am just not really convinced there is enough angler effort/familiarity to establish a mid-Willamette area coho fishery, which I would think would be mostly boat-based. Won't people be deer hunting and fishing coastal bays during the majority of the fish passage over the falls and up river?

I'm glad to hear that the fish are reproducing so well naturally--if that really is what is happening. How do we know the fish are not strays? Do coho stray with the frequency of say, chinook in the Deschutes? Do coho tend to "colonize" new rivers and creeks?

[KevinsDriftboat]

It was the press release in my original post. It only touts the record numbers, not the fishery. But I believe it is accurate to say as it did "there should be lots of good opportunities for people to get out and catch these fish"

[tyeekilla]

17000 fish doesn't look bad on paper when you compare it to approx. 29000 springers above the falls fot 09'.

[CatFishSlim]

Originally Posted by KevinsDriftboat

Where did you hear or read that?

Obviously its not in print anywhere. But if they arent then they wouldnt encourage people to take "native" fish, that are supposed to be making this big comeback, 3 at a time.

Prior to ladderring of Willamette Falls, passage of returning adult Salmon were only possible during winter or spring high flow periods...

Coho were not present until hatchery introductions occured in tribs upstream from the falls...

The population currently consists of a self sustaining population originating from hatchery outplants

ESA Status: Upper Willamette Tributary Coho are not part of any Coho Salmon ESU

Why not??

Hatchery strays from in-basin segregated and out of basin hatchery programs: 4 fish.

Im not pretending to know anything about the subject, in fact, almost everthing ODFW does confuses me.

[TheBlueFox]

I have lived on the Tualatin since the early 90's. Ever since they stopped the hatchery program the runs haven't really been enough to fish. Occasionally while bass fishing I have hooked a handful of larger steelhead, chinook and coho depending on the time of year... But they're really just to far and few between to be worth your while. Most of the lower river where the good holding spots are located is private land as well. This is just ODFW efforts to get rid of the runs because they deem them "non native"

[KevinsDriftboat]

At this rate, it looks like we might get over 20K including Jacks. Thats a lot of fish.

[07clackapramowner]

Originally Posted by KevinsDriftboat

At this rate, it looks like we might get over 20K including Jacks. Thats a lot of fish.

It would be funny to see a run of coho that hasn't been stocked for years and is naturally reproducing have a larger run than the hatchery steelhead that are stocked year after year. And we get a nonselective three fish limit on these fish to boot. We already have over 7k and this years steelhead are just over 14k.

[BigHook]

So why have only the coho came back in record numbers EVERYWHERE!??

[PapaHog]

Originally Posted by BigHook

So why have only the coho came back in record numbers EVERYWHERE!??

BigHook, I believe you meant to say "Why not have only the coho come back in record numbers EVERYWHERE.?"

The answer to the question as I have written it is..........Habitate has changed and will not support such runs. JMHO.

[BigHook]

Originally Posted by PapaHog

BigHook, I believe you meant to say "Why not have only the coho come back in record numbers EVERYWHERE.?"

The answer to the question as I have written it is..........Habitate has changed and will not support such runs. JMHO.

You just confused me.. haha.

What I mean to say is why are the coho runs so large this year in pretty much every river but the chinook are not? Is it the different types of water they spawn in? Places in the ocean that coho go that chinook do not?

[David Johnson]

What I mean to say is why are the coho runs so large this year in pretty much every river but the chinook are not?

Just wait. The chinook are four and five year old fish, the coho are two. In a fe years the chinook numbers will jump up too.

[farm5]

Are they all the offspring of what ODFW planted years ago?

Do they really know that Silvers never existed in the Willamette. “Never” is a whole lot of time.

It seems strange that when a sizable population of fish pass the falls, ODFW would enact regulations to catch them ALL clipped or not.

It seems that the Silvers above the falls are doing marginally well, regardless of the fact that they are natural or not.

Do they or their offspring compete with what ODFW considers natural?

If ODFW was errant in their ways and created a potential fishery, why not let it evolve and see where it leads as long as it doesn’t compete with what is believed to be natural.

The Silvers will survive regardless of the upriver fishing effort, most do not bite no matter what one tries.

[weekender]

Originally Posted by David Johnson

Just wait. The chinook are four and five year old fish, the coho are two. In a fe years the chinook numbers will jump up too.

Exactly. We're on the upswing. I bet the majority of the chinook you see killed this fall are 12-18 pounders. Your typical three year old fish. Next fall and the year after are going to be fun.

[BigHook]

Originally Posted by David Johnson

Just wait. The chinook are four and five year old fish, the coho are two. In a fe years the chinook numbers will jump up too.

Ah yes... thank you. That makes sense.

[07clackapramowner]

Originally Posted by weekender

Exactly. We're on the upswing. I bet the majority of the chinook you see killed this fall are 12-18 pounders. Your typical three year old fish. Next fall and the year after are going to be fun.

I'm gonna have to learn how to catch a Chinook by then

[weekender]

Originally Posted by 07clackapramowner

I'm gonna have to learn how to catch a Chinook by then

You've got all fall to practice before springers get here next year.

[Siwash]

Originally Posted by farm5

Are they all the offspring of what ODFW planted years ago?

Do they really know that Silvers never existed in the Willamette. “Never” is a whole lot of time.
...

Do they or their offspring compete with what ODFW considers natural?

If ODFW was errant in their ways and created a potential fishery, why not let it evolve and see where it leads as long as it doesn’t compete with what is believed to be natural.

I can't say with any authority personally, but my understanding of ODFW's official position is that 1) "never" = before the ladder was put in at Willy Falls; that would plausibly be a game-changer vs what historically existed naturally; and 2) the wild winter steelhead run is in fact ESA listed, so that may drive a lot of what else is promoted/discouraged in areas where they overlap. Keep in mind it may have more to do w/ competition at the juvenile stages than the adult returns which we anglers tend to pay more attention to.

Again, I don't know this for a fact, just thinking out loud and trying to give ODFW the benefit of the doubt. It strikes me as highly probable the guys who research this stuff for a living probably know more about the finer details than most of us armchair biologists.

[BlackBass]

Originally Posted by weekender

Exactly. We're on the upswing. I bet the majority of the chinook you see killed this fall are 12-18 pounders. Your typical three year old fish. Next fall and the year after are going to be fun.

Lots of 12-18 lb fish showin up !

[diamondfish]

There are those who say that fishery was the result of a hatch box program from the 50's and 60's.

There are those whom researched back to the days before white man in the OC area who can account for the fact that the Coho didn't make it above the falls. That improvements in fishways on rivers have allowed the coho to take hold in waters where it was never "Native".

And there are those like me whom believe there may be some chance that long ago there may have been a hearty couple who by all odds made it up the Willamette Falls.

Pick one of the three and there is your answer

[SILVERSINK]

so we are saying that fish don't use the locks to get up stream, as th locks have been there many years befor the ladder.

[crownpoint54]

I just a fisherman, I guess you could call me an armchair biologist. I know people that have caught silvers in the Willamette years before ODFW says they started planting them. They would say that the silvers would not arrive until late in the fall. The idea that there was not enough water for these late arrivers doesn't make sense, if there as water for winter steelhead there was water for silvers. The Clackamas has a few native silvers that still show up in late December and January and I believe that Willamette does too.

The fish counts before the new fish ladders were installed were not very accurate. The fish were counted only as they jumped from one ladder pool to another. There were alot of days when the fish counters couldn't get to the falls because the water was to high. When I was a kid in the sixties on slow fishing days after school we would play around at the ladders and we almost never saw fish counters, I believe they only counted for eight hours a day. I think Papermaker had a relative that had a contract to ferry the counters to the falls, maybe he has more information.

This is just my opinion, but I believe we let these late returning silvers be gilnetted to the brink of extinction as there used to be net fisheries thru November.

I also believe that most silvers here now are no doubt from hatchery stock
but there are no doubt some that will return in November and December that are a true willamette native silver.

[Dave G]

For as big of a river that it is, along with a nice number of tributaries, it might be a record run, but I am not impressed. I know the Willy has a checkered past, but what river doesn’t. In my view, once you get upriver from the stinky OC, the Willy is a beautiful river. You want some money coming into the valley, get the N&S Santiam, McKenzie stocked and good runs going. The Willy has sucked so bad in recent years I sold my sled and am mostly a Salty dog now a days. and now back to the regular scheduled program.

[sidedrftr]

Originally Posted by BigHook

So why have only the coho came back in record numbers EVERYWHERE!??

This may explain a partial loss for our chinook; Alaska Pollock (Theragra chalcogramma) fisheries.

<LI class=main>The Alaska pollock fishery is the largest U.S. fishery, by volume. Annual catches average 2.5 billion pounds. <LI class=main>Fishing and habitat: Midwater trawl nets, which have minimal impacts on the ocean environment, are used to harvest Alaska pollock.
Bycatch: Bycatch of other species is generally between one and two percent of the total Alaska pollock catch: from 2003 through 2008 about 28 pounds of other species were caught for each metric ton (2,205 pounds) of pollock. Salmon bycatch is a particular concern because of the importance of salmon for commercial and subsistence fisheries. The North Pacific Fishery Management Council recently voted to limit the number of Chinook salmon allowed to be accidentally caught in the pollock fishery. The Council plans to take similar action to reduce bycatch of other salmon species.

Our salmon are considered "incidental catch" while harvesting Pollack. There is a maximum allowed allotment of incidental catch- anything over that, there are fines imposed. This is a billion dollar industry and one of monetary gain for corporations of multi-national origin.

[07clackapramowner]

Latest Coho #'s as of 9/22 8,035

[BillH]

I've been told by several retired well respected ODFW bios the same thing about there being no historically native coho run above the falls. Cohos were established early in the 20th century in places including the Tualatin. Apparently they have, to some extent, thrived.

I started fishing for salmon as a 7th grader back in l953 in Sucker Creek, the outlet of Lake Oswego as L>O's water came primarily from the diverson canal from the Tualatin. Hundreds of coho swarmed up to the falls below the lake attracting elbow to elbow anglers around the big hole at the falls. The peak of this run was late October with some bright ones still showing into the early part of December when the native steelhead started showing.

Several old timers told me about cohos slowing down at the dam on the Tualatin which still exists just West of West Linn. They caught fish there too. We also caught cohos in the Willamette pitching spinners off the bank inside the island at the foot of George Rogers park. These fish were primarily bound for Sucker Creek.

In the those early years the "Fish Commission" hatchery people from the Sandy hatchery seined cohos from Sucker Creek Falls which were used as broodstock in the Sandy! Hatchery smolts were stocked in Tryon Creek back in those days both just below th RR tracks in LO and in the little tributary behind my parents home which were the only two places accessible for hatchery trucks. We found no evidence of returning adults above Hwy 47 in LO due to the long culvert which has since been improved.

It is my belief that the strain of cohos planted in the Tualatin system was very adaptable to that, and perhaps other, Willamette tributaries. Now I'll tell you what I think about wild v. hatchery fish politics. I truly believe that if introduced hatchery fish accidentally fit into a river system, they should be given the same protections as any historically wild fish.

[veracitynetter]

Originally Posted by Derrel

ODFW put out a bulletin just a couple of days ago, touting the coho fishery opportunities above Willamette Falls...talking about the three fish daily limit and emphasizing the angling opportunities this expected record run will offer.

I thought the entire premise was exceedingly weak, considering how many miles of rivers and creeks there are, a run size of say 7,000 to even 10,000 or more coho over the Falls but distributed throughout the many miles of rivers and creeks of the mid-Willamette Valley just does not seem to me like much of a fishing opportunity for the general public,especially given the fickle nature of coho salmon this far inland and away from saltwater,and the poor public access found on many mid-Valley tributaries of the Willamette.

I don't know if ODFW's anticipated all-time modern record of 17,000 coho or more over WIllamette Falls will materialize...it might materialize. I am just not really convinced there is enough angler effort/familiarity to establish a mid-Willamette area coho fishery, which I would think would be mostly boat-based. Won't people be deer hunting and fishing coastal bays during the majority of the fish passage over the falls and up river?

I'm glad to hear that the fish are reproducing so well naturally--if that really is what is happening. How do we know the fish are not strays? Do coho stray with the frequency of say, chinook in the Deschutes? Do coho tend to "colonize" new rivers and creeks?

Coho have a near ZERO stray rate.

[Snapset]

Originally Posted by BillH

I've been told by several retired well respected ODFW bios the same thing about there being no historically native coho run above the falls. Cohos were established early in the 20th century in places including the Tualatin. Apparently they have, to some extent, thrived.

I started fishing for salmon as a 7th grader back in l953 in Sucker Creek, the outlet of Lake Oswego as L>O's water came primarily from the diverson canal from the Tualatin. Hundreds of coho swarmed up to the falls below the lake attracting elbow to elbow anglers around the big hole at the falls. The peak of this run was late October with some bright ones still showing into the early part of December when the native steelhead started showing.

Several old timers told me about cohos slowing down at the dam on the Tualatin which still exists just West of West Linn. They caught fish there too. We also caught cohos in the Willamette pitching spinners off the bank inside the island at the foot of George Rogers park. These fish were primarily bound for Sucker Creek.

In the those early years the "Fish Commission" hatchery people from the Sandy hatchery seined cohos from Sucker Creek Falls which were used as broodstock in the Sandy! Hatchery smolts were stocked in Tryon Creek back in those days both just below th RR tracks in LO and in the little tributary behind my parents home which were the only two places accessible for hatchery trucks. We found no evidence of returning adults above Hwy 47 in LO due to the long culvert which has since been improved.

It is my belief that the strain of cohos planted in the Tualatin system was very adaptable to that, and perhaps other, Willamette tributaries. Now I'll tell you what I think about wild v. hatchery fish politics. I truly believe that if introduced hatchery fish accidentally fit into a river system, they should be given the same protections as any historically wild fish.

Great historical report, and I agree 100%

[tatered]

Originally Posted by BillH

I've been told by several retired well respected ODFW bios the same thing about there being no historically native coho run above the falls. Cohos were established early in the 20th century in places including the Tualatin. Apparently they have, to some extent, thrived.

I started fishing for salmon as a 7th grader back in l953 in Sucker Creek, the outlet of Lake Oswego as L>O's water came primarily from the diverson canal from the Tualatin. Hundreds of coho swarmed up to the falls below the lake attracting elbow to elbow anglers around the big hole at the falls. The peak of this run was late October with some bright ones still showing into the early part of December when the native steelhead started showing.

Several old timers told me about cohos slowing down at the dam on the Tualatin which still exists just West of West Linn. They caught fish there too. We also caught cohos in the Willamette pitching spinners off the bank inside the island at the foot of George Rogers park. These fish were primarily bound for Sucker Creek.

In the those early years the "Fish Commission" hatchery people from the Sandy hatchery seined cohos from Sucker Creek Falls which were used as broodstock in the Sandy! Hatchery smolts were stocked in Tryon Creek back in those days both just below th RR tracks in LO and in the little tributary behind my parents home which were the only two places accessible for hatchery trucks. We found no evidence of returning adults above Hwy 47 in LO due to the long culvert which has since been improved.

It is my belief that the strain of cohos planted in the Tualatin system was very adaptable to that, and perhaps other, Willamette tributaries. Now I'll tell you what I think about wild v. hatchery fish politics. I truly believe that if introduced hatchery fish accidentally fit into a river system, they should be given the same protections as any historically wild fish.

I agree as well!

I have seen many at the fish ladder at Lee falls

[nehalemguy]

Originally Posted by 12pulls

The Tualatin historically has a small native silver run.

ODFW says otherwise. I was surprised to hear this from a ODFW biologist at a recent Tualatin Riverkeepers forum.

E

[jmw22]

Originally Posted by BillH

It is my belief that the strain of cohos planted in the Tualatin system was very adaptable to that, and perhaps other, Willamette tributaries. Now I'll tell you what I think about wild v. hatchery fish politics. I truly believe that if introduced hatchery fish accidentally fit into a river system, they should be given the same protections as any historically wild fish.

I agree as well! So does that mean if the coho have an almost zero stray rate that all fish in these tribs. will be unclipped? If so, I say let them be and give them a few years to multiply.

[The Big Beaver]

Originally Posted by veracitynetter

Coho have a near ZERO stray rate.

Are you kidding or serious?

[KevinsDriftboat]

Looks like most folks took him serious.
But most of us know Coho are known wanderers.

Originally Posted by The Big Beaver

Are you kidding or serious?

[The Big Beaver]

Originally Posted by KevinsDriftboat

Looks like most folks took him serious.
But most of us know Coho are known wanderers.

I was just checkin.

[cubsfan]

Originally Posted by Dave G

For as big of a river that it is, along with a nice number of tributaries, it might be a record run, but I am not impressed. I know the Willy has a checkered past, but what river doesn’t. In my view, once you get upriver from the stinky OC, the Willy is a beautiful river. You want some money coming into the valley, get the N&S Santiam, McKenzie stocked and good runs going. The Willy has sucked so bad in recent years I sold my sled and am mostly a Salty dog now a days. and now back to the regular scheduled program.

As another disappointed NS angler, you couldn't be more correct. I too sold my sled and have bought a "sort of" ocean going vessel. I think I will resort to mostly trout fishing and hope for the occasional hookup for steel. There's a real nice dude on here who has offered to take me out and show me the Newport bar, on his boat, this upcoming coho season. I can't reveal the name though:-) I have a feeling I'll be hooked on Salt.

[BCFISHON1]

well i was at the mouth of the molalla on monday and didnt see anything roll and no sighns of fish in the river mouth itsself.not sure where the fish are but i have never seen any in the mo as long as i have lived here for 15 yrs.could be some but probably not much more than the remnant run of fall nooks it still gets.

[KevinsDriftboat]

Thanks for the report, and its good to hear from you. Hang in there.

Originally Posted by BCFISHON1

well i was at the mouth of the molalla on monday and didnt see anything roll and no sighns of fish in the river mouth itsself.not sure where the fish are but i have never seen any in the mo as long as i have lived here for 15 yrs.could be some but probably not much more than the remnant run of fall nooks it still gets.

[veilside180sx]

http://www.dfw.state.or.us/STEP/docs...l%20Report.pdf

Tom McCall Middle School was involved in the incubator program, I imagine the majority of these coho's in that system largely came from that.

[tatered]

Originally Posted by veilside180sx

http://www.dfw.state.or.us/STEP/docs...l%20Report.pdf

Tom McCall Middle School was involved in the incubator program, I imagine the majority of these coho's in that system largely came from that.

there are many schools that have that program. they are run through the steelheaders

[veilside180sx]

Originally Posted by tatered

there are many schools that have that program. they are run through the steelheaders

I realize that, but was stating that Tom McCall specifically worked with fish for the Gales Creek system.