Live Bait Tech post

[Pilar]

'There are no experts on the ocean'

Or so I've been told. I have a bait tank and just got done building a second one which is for sale BTW. Took some photos and as soon as I get them back I'll add them to this post on how to build a tank. This tank is a prototype. It has worked well on two trips now and could be perfected with some additional hours of fine tuning. The best part about the design is no special tools, skills or materials. Any DIY person could build one quickly and inexpensively.

More on this when I get the photos back.

Now for the other stuff.

As stated above I do not consider myself an expert and have three trips under my belt. But I have been a bait fisherman most of my life and learned a few relevant details which I will be happy to share with all of you. If you have further insight please do the same. Lets not debate the merits of one method or the other .. lets discuss how to wrap that live anchovy with 20 pounds of rocket ship albacore.

1) Use #1 Live bait hooks. 1/0 is too big and kills the bait, #2 is too small and pulls out of the fish's mouth.

2) Flourocarbon leader seems to work better. I used 30#, about 6 feet and a small swivel to the main line. I think a direct splice may work even better.

3) Hot baits kill fish. If your bait dives straight down and runs hard it will get hammered pretty quick. If it drags out behind the boat it will get eaten by a shearwater.

4) Salmon rods with 25# test mono line work pretty good. I used a 932C loomis hotshot rod with a penn 975 and 25# test and had a ball.

5) The fish are spooky. They may be jumping but they almost always dive when you approach. Some guys sneak in shut everything off and like that and we tried that and charging right in and casting a fish trap into the boil before it had a chance to dissapear. Both ways worked.

6) It seemed to me that you had to catch a fish to get a live bait stop going. We used fishtraps and once one was on the rest would follow it and hit the live bait. Cast as you approach or troll the fishtraps.

7) Breaking one off ends the bait stop. See also #6. I think the fish darts away ... Yike, Yike, Yike and the school follows it.

8) Don't gut fish while you are still on the bait stop or the sharks will show up pretty quick.

There are other things I am sure. We would hook up and then let a bait swim behind the boat. Or all the baits we could rig. Hooked through the very tip of the snout or under the collar. The key is to not injure the bait and get the most action you can. A bait that swims upright and tries to pull line out is going to get hit long before a dead one will.

Now for the hard part. It requires patience and steely will but this what I was taught to do. Open bail and clicker on. Put the rod in the pole holder and find something else to do. It will click when the fish picks it up and he should encounter no resistance. You can feel the fish chewing the bait as it swims away. After a 5 count slam the bail shut and hang on. Light drag and rod handling finesse are a must. You only have 25# test and a nuclear powered fish!

If you can keep baits in the water they will stay at the boat. Good luck. On good stops everything we threw in got slammed as soon as it swam 5 feet. This can go on until the sharks show up. Once that happens you have to find another boil and start over.

I'll get back to you with some pictures and tech on bait tank building. Get that washdown pump going in the meantime, you'll need one to run this tank.

[HiouchiMike]

My experience with live bait goes back 40 years to San Diego. We always tried to use heavist line they would chew. Red hot bite, 60lb line works fine. Somedays it took 15lb string to get bite. Always have several outfits to use.
My greatest learning curve came when took former commercial tuna chaser onboard. He explained how they swim in straight lines and need to stop formation by chum. Left corner than wait than right corner. Mix it up and when they light up[literally] they have stopped and are feeding.

We fish freespool and will push line off reel to give bait best chance of free swimming into tuna mouth. Count five when hit than set hook.

Great topic and hope to learn more.

Cheers

[CATCH AND EAT]

A couple of things here:

On the livebait hooks I have used #1, #2 and #4 this year. Had a friend suggest that this late in the year the #4's might work a tad bit better than the larger size hooks especially with as spooky as the fish have become. I will testify that we did have a #4 hook straighten Saturday which really surpirsed me. I really think that the #2 at least for me is just about the ideal size for these albies off the CR. Even those big bad 34#r's. My opinion only but it has worked okay for me this season.

Flurocarbon leaders are pretty much necessary and I have been running 30# on my trolled fish traps and on my livebait gear here in september and it has worked well for me. I even tried 20# and it is more work but hookups were very regular on that setup whereas the 30# was slightly underperforming the 20#. On fishtraps that we have cast to jumpers we have gotten away with 25# mono on a 25-50# 8ft salmon rod and a 6500csi reel has done the trick very nicely. Great way to fish and fight these powerhouses.

Hot baits kill. Absolutly correct but when you get to the end of your bucket of worms the less lively will still get eaten, just not as readily.

Late season fish are really spooky for sure. Saturday I noticed when I did not shut down the motors the hookups were not as quick as when the were off. If the motors were still running the baits that swam way away from the boat finally got bit. With the motors off it was almost immediate! I would say not only turn your depth finders off but also your GPS units as well. Last season this was a must for those livebait fisherman as the fish were so spooky they would sound at the slightest noise from the boat. One thing that I think is very important to remember is that once jumpers are spotted your crew better be ready with livebaits hooked up immediatly before the boat ever stops or they may miss the school. This happened on my boat a few times this season and we ended up having to move to another group of fish. Team work can make great fishing. Be READY!


We actually ran to where we thought we saw jumpers and then just fed line out to the fish and I would throw a few live baits out amoung the baits to stir things up a bit. One rod would get hammered and then the others would go off. I never noticed that when one broke off that no other fish would bite. We did not seem to have this happen. We'd break off and put another rod out and darn near as soon as the bait hit the water it was fish on. Perhaps it was just our day saturday and I would attest that it all depends on the day and how the fish are biting.
Absolutly right on about the gutting of fish. Big no no unless you are wanting to attract blues to your area. Saturday was kinda weird as we really had no blue shark problems to speak of. We had one at the boat once and one large threasher that came to see what was to eat but that was it.

ONe thing we did was hold onto the rods when livebaiting out there. Only had 4 rods out at a time and we would be bit on at least two each time if not 3 or 4. We did have times during the day where we would send a poor little chovie overboard and then set a light drag and clicker on and put it in the holder only to turn and see the sucker going off and line peeling out. What fun!

Not much to disagree with here John and I think it is a good start for folks to take a good hard look at. Can't wait to see your live baitwell set up. Should give a lot of folks an inexpensive way to put a tank on their boats. Good stuff.

[Zodiac-Fisherman]

Dont mess with the Gami Octopus ringed hooks, they are too thin and will break.

I was suggested to try out the new Nautilus line of hooks by Gami, havent seen em before. Been too busy this season cow hunting down south.

[fishindude]

very interesting to read. Thanks. just curious, what size fishtrap are you casting to these shy hogs. They didn't seem to like the 4.5" Is smaller better?

[Chrome Bumper]

The double extra strong ringed hooks work, they tend to pull out before bending.

[HiouchiMike]

We did cut inch off larger ones. Smaller does seem to get bit more late in season.
Cheers

[Freakwater]

My newly aquired ......

If you have a ton of bait, by all means throw out a few to start the bite. If you're concerned if your bait will last, getting the crew's live bait rigs out asap will do the job. Consider have one person pull all the troll rigs while the rest get their bait in the water. Perhaps chucking 2 or 3 out once everyone is hooked up to keep the school at the boat for a second round might be helpful?

The smaller hooks sure do pull out a lot easier. If you can get bit with a #1 or even a #1/0, go for it. Haven't seen a marked difference in using ringed hooks vs. non-ringed, but I've yet to fish live bait on a really tough day. Probably a good idea to have some ringed hooks in the arsenal.

I sure do like having the rod in hand and paying out line when the bait gets slammed. If the boat is spooking the fish, why not let all the baits swim together away from the boat? I've found that 2-3 seconds while holding the rod is plenty before setting the hook. Seems like the bait is swallowed immediately.

Of course, I will have to do this a couple hundred more times before I feel comfortable giving out advice on the internet...

Oh yeah.... even a couple drops of tuna blood in the bait tank will completely stress out your bait!

Freakwater

[Mark Mc]

11. Match the hook size to the bait (duh). You don't use a #2 on 7 inch chovies or large sardines, just like you don't use 3/0 on 4 inch chovies

12. Tunabites, not fishtraps!!!!

13. For drift fishing, the 3.5 and 3.75 swimbaits nearly ALWAYS do better than the 4.5 inch. If the water is gin-clear, use the small jobs for sure.

14. "Live bait rod" means something specific. It is a fast taper rod with a small tip but a lot of backbone. For flylining, the best rod will allow you to "lob" the bait the farthes, without having the bait come off the hook.

15. If you need to add weight (i.e. rubber core, or chromie), now you want to nose hook it because the sinker pulling on the nose is better than the sinker pulling on the gill collar. With no weight, collar hook.

16. With big bait esp. sardines, you can vent hook or back hook. This will cause them to swim down.

17. "Bail?" What the hell is a bail?

18. You want a reel that freespools very easily...so the bait can take out line. I use the technique of an upward flicking of the thumb, to gradually pay out line...less work for the bait.

19. You want a loop, or a ringed hook, so the bait can "swivel". The standard loop is called a Perfection Loop, not a "pefect" loop (Who called it that? Flog him). Or get ringed hooks.

20. When using small baits & hooks, better to "reel down" on the fish & gradually load up the rod, not wild swinging of the rod. That is for macho guys. They think it's cool but they miss more hookups.

21. Change the line (topshot) every, single trip.

22. Check you line at the hook after every single fish, and re-tie if necessary.

BTW much of this applies to fishing swimbaits for tuna. At least that's what Yoda told me.

[CATCH AND EAT]

My newly aquired ......

If you have a ton of bait, by all means throw out a few to start the bite. If you're concerned if your bait will last, getting the crew's live bait rigs out asap will do the job. Consider have one person pull all the troll rigs while the rest get their bait in the water. Perhaps chucking 2 or 3 out once everyone is hooked up to keep the school at the boat for a second round might be helpful?

This is exactly right John. I had three guys put their baits in the water and once I slowly reeled in the fishtraps I would then grab the salmon rod and chuck out a fish trap at the jumpers. Sometimes I would hookup, sometimes not. Just depended on how agressive these fish were.

aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh Mark, that would be on Odin and Trackers boats. Coffee Grinders. :grin:

Smaller traps/bites were workin the best but we were getting nailed even on the larger bites/traps too. Just not as redially as the smaller versions. Blue was definitly the color this year although the greens did pretty well too in either of the brands.

BTW the fish trap/ tuna bites deal is pretty brand new to me so I am just relating my personal experiences here. The livebait deal I have done on others boats last year and on mine this year only. I have been taught by a pro.

[Chrome Bumper]

Throwing out the live bait rig as soon as the engines throttle back will get things rolling. If you miss that first bait hook up you miss 80% of the action.

[ron m]

When we live baited in Fla, we used a sliding sinker if we wanted to get the bait down. A sliding sinker is an egg sinker on your mainline above the leader. That way when a fish takes your bait, it won't feel the weight very much because your line will slide thru the sinker. For setting the hook when live bait fishing, after a fish picks up the bait, count to 3 or 4 or 5 slowly, then engage your reel and wait till the line is just coming tight, then set the hook. Guess these are #23 and 24 if one is counting!

If I was live baiting for tuna, I'd be holding my rod, be in free-spool, clicker OFF, helping the bait swim away from the boat by paying out line in one way or another! I think this way of fishing is more exciting than casting swimbaits, nothing like the excitement when a fish picks up your bait!!

Hoping for several more tuna days this year!
ron m

[CATCH AND EAT]

If I was live baiting for tuna, I'd be holding my rod, be in free-spool, clicker OFF, helping the bait swim away from the boat by paying out line in one way or another! I think this way of fishing is more exciting than casting swimbaits, nothing like the excitement when a fish picks up your bait!!

Hoping for several more tuna days this year!
ron m

And that is the way it should be done Ron. Good stuff. Putting the rod in the holder is not the answer period. We did this only when we were putting fish up so we had room to stand. And it is way more of a thrill to feel that take from the fish than to wait for a rod to go off. IMHO

BTW, #4 hook bite just fine on these big guys. If they are gonna come out that is just what is gonna happen.

[jigmaster]

..Grew up in San diego..Fished H&M, Fishermans Landing, Pt. Loma Sportsfishing, Seaforth, Islandia, etc..Greenback chovies are best..Don't overfill the bait tank.. and let them settle down and swim in a nice circle in a round bait tank (small boat)before you pound out to the fishing grounds

[TillamookChinook]

It is interesting to watch the evolution and maturing of the tuna tactics among the Salty Dogs over the several years I have been lurking on this board. The swim baits and live bait methods, even the fly rods . . .

I wondered why anybody would want to use handlines until I went out for my first tuna trip in July (Thanks Popeye) and found how much easier it is to get the fish in on a handline when the bite is hot than trying to muscle in a tuna on a standup rod quickly because several lines are going off.

I have some thoughts on improving big reels for strong fish (tuna, halibut). Maybe by next summer I'll have a prototype.

I enjoyed it all. Tuna are so strong compared to salmon. I'm ready to graduate to light tackle tuna next year (already tied big streamer flies) or swordfish and big eye (already carved big cedar plugs), or meat fishing with handlines. Love that bluewater fishing.

Good luck on the big fall fish. I'm gone until November or I would be begging a ride. As the Cubs fans always say, "Wait 'til Next Year".

TC

[HOGGEMIN]

Mark bail is what U need when U need to get out of jail. If U run then they send out the bounty hunters after your butt.

I would argee with what Mark has said though I am no expert.I do know U can not have too much bait and the bigger the berret for a bait tank. I am looking at a 26' boat and would like to have about a 100 gallon tank made.

Chumming live bait seems to get the action going and at times it is nonstop action.

[HiouchiMike]

Nice part of chumming is it only takes a few baits to know if they are on the chew. Five chummed to stop school, 25 hook-ups on collar pinned light lined anchovies tossed upwind corner and followed around stern to downwind and fish on. How can it get any better?

[Woody]

My question is why does the behavior of albacore change as the season progresses? Early in the season they slam trolled jigs like there's no tomorrow, but when you examine the stomach contents, they are full of little silver baitfish, sauries, which look nothing like a mexican flag colored Zuker. Why do they get so picky and line shy late in the season??

[Chrome Bumper]

Maybe they learn Oregon is a rough neighborhood as the season progresses?

[Booja 1]

Hiouchi Mike n Jigmaster,,,

You must be the guys that dump in early on the slide after a hook-up on the jigs and get the bait bite going :smile: use the heaviest they will "chew", I think I've heard that once before :smile:,,,,60lb in the corner chewing the paint off is very nice.

[tracker]

All sounds good to me except using the florocarbon! We caught plenty and there was no florocarbo present! No problem getting bites! All I know is that the stuff seems to break easier and it takes more time to tie it up to your main line then to your hook then get the bait hooked on! Man I got one fish in the boat and another on by the time that fancy florocarbon leader set up hit the water! We straight tie to the hook! What mark says about the hook size to the chivie is great but on saturday Tetonriver was using some mondo thick super strong circle hook looking thing. Once he dropped that block of steel over the side he had to hold his thumb on the spool to keep it from creating a birds nest from sinking so fast! He was hooked up as often as any of us! I think the main thing is get in the water! Make dang sure you are ready to go as the boat slows! Ask the guys on my boat and they will tell you that I am constantly asking if they are ready as we slide in!

[tunahelper]

Last year I read that the florocarbon leader was the best. So, I geared up and really found no difference with it.

Hook size doesn't seem to matter much either- we basically run the strongest, within reason, we can find. Hooked in the nose or gill plate. We've never used artificial baits with the exception of squid jigs for trolling. Have to try these next year.
Early in the season the fish were filled with squid and we did better then trolling than mooching with choivies. aaaand for chumming, yes. Nearly non-stop while your on top of the fish. Later in the season the fish were stuffed with bait fish.

As for free-spooling the bait- yup, but only until the bait gets out of site. Too much risk of having a rats-nest.

I say all this having never hauled in those 50+ fish trip reports that I've seen here, but enough to fill the coolers and freezer- so we've done ok with the techniques that we have.

Oh and for the bait tank... Do not overfill. Did that once and nearly all were dead by mid day either by lack of o2 or stress. The tank I made works very well for about 15lbs of bait.

[Mark Mc]

Maybe you guys are missing a point....or maybe I didn't explain it. The reason I use fluorocarbon is when the light line gets chewed off by big fish inhaling the lure / bait. Fluorocarbon allows you to bump UP the line test (of the leader / tippet) and still get bit by finicky fish, while preventing / eliminating the chew-offs.

It goes like this:

15 lb mono + 20 lb fluoro leader
20 lb mono + 30 (or 40) fluoro

You don't put 20 fluoro on 20 mono because you don't gain anything.

Tracker, we always have the fluoro tippets tied onto the rigs before we start fishing. And spares ready to go. So it doesn't require any additional time to tie on. If I have to re-tie a hook / jighead on fluoro, it takes maybe 10 - 15 seconds longer than a mono knot, because I am adding extra "lube" (spit), which is required as you cinch down the knot with fluoro. It also...propbably...makes it easier for me because I use a San Diego knot, which is very well suited for fluorocarbon.

edit -

San Diego knot: http://www.marlinnut.com/knots/sandiego.shtml

Perfection Loop, a.k.a. live bait loop:
http://www.marlinnut.com/knots/perfection.shtml

[tunahelper]

-like the San Diego knot. Thanks.

[Mark Mc]

Yea....one thing to realize about fluorocarbon is that the same property that makes it tough (abrasion resistant) also causes a risk to itself when cinching a knot. Mono "slides" much more smoothly when cinching down. With fluoro you can feel the friction / resistance when cinching. This creates heat which will cause kinking if not careful. It is that kinking that causes fluoro to break at less than the expected test. The combination of (1) lots of spit and (2) using a San Diego knot (or similar, that cinches down gradually) is the solution for preventing this problem.

[Tinman]

Guys, add a lighter outfit to your live-bait arsenal. I am talking 12# mono here. And carry some #4 and even #6 live bait hooks. You need a reel with a silky smooth drag, like a Daiwa SL20SH or a Newell 200 series.

When the fish are really spooky, 12# line and a size 6 hook will get them when nothing else will. I have seen this happen again and again and again and again on the San Diego party boats.

Carry a 12# outfit...it works when nothing else will.

[tracker]

On the party boats it does take special techniques to get them, but most of the time on the smaller boats the same heroic are not needed!

[BaitStop]

Sounds like most of the guys w/San Diego, SoCal experience are used to the full gamut of albie gear. I had similar experiences on the Sportboats out of Pt. Loma. Albies on the slide w/Scampis & 50-60 lb. mono to the other extreme 15 lb. mono and a 195-6 Sabre "twitch". BTW I landed my largest albie (44 lbs.) on that twitch using a # 4 Mustad 9174 baithook & a 5" greenback chovie.

Good Fishing!

[Teton]

Yep, those chrome Owner bait hooks hooked me up many, many times that day. I saved time having to retie, and got more bait in the H2O that way.

You've got to be a little more careful hooking on your live bait, as these hooks are a little thicker, but the extra weight helped the bait get down...down....3....2....1....FISH ON!!! BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ<reel smoking, literally>

[wdlfbio]

Second to strong live bait (no red noses or other injuries) is you getting the bait away from the boat. Doesn't matter what diameter line you are using if your bait is against the hull. First thing dad ever did was park the truck in the driveway and have us practice casting "live bait". Whatever he had laying around that replicated the nose hooked anchovie would work. We got good "lobbing" that out without a backlash or throwing the bait off way before he kicked down the $65+ for a 3/4 day tuna! trip.

How many of us practiced at all this year?

Even if you get a good cast, it's no good if the bait just sits there, or even wrse, swims back to the boat. Those get their lips ripped of and a fresh bait is used. Likewise, we never recycled a bait. If it didn't get bit in the first couple of minutes, off it came and a new one hooked up.

We always baited up IMMEDIATELY after a troll fish was hooked up. It was a sucker that got stuck manning the troll rod. We were always standing/sitting by the bait tank with our hooks ready for a live bait to cast when the clickers screamed :smile: :smile: First guys in the water usually got the first fish. We'd start with 20#. If they were pounding that, we'd go to 30#. If that was getting eating alive, 40#. But, we always had at least one set-up standing by with 15#.

Lighter line will usually get bit before heavier line. Problem is, most of us are used to horsing fish. Can't get away with that on 20#. Then again, it's a heck of a lot of fun having to earn the fish. Having hooks straightened or pulled out at the boat are a humbling experience (and I've been there many times), but we learn from them.

Practice casting and keep your bait healthy!!!