carbontex upgrade for the 5 and 6 series abassadue

[alantani]

when i first started doing reel seminars 5 years ago, one fourth of the reels brought in were ambassaduers. initially, they took up a third of the time. it took quite a while, but i figured out the right combination of penn ht-100 drag washers and metal washers. my problem was always a space issue. the penn washers i had were always too thick. recently, I (Non sponsor removed) came out with a line of carbontex drag washers that fit perfectly. just slap on a coat of cal or shimano drag grease, switch out the drags and witness the miracle!

many of you have these old ambassaduers. it had been a love/hate relationship.

http://www.yourfishpictures.com/data/500/medium/100_0718.JPG

good looks and cheap, but unreliable. well, i want all of you to pull out those old seized up ambassaduers, and get ready to fall in love all over again. this is one reel that anyone can fix at home. here's how....

first, check out the smoothdrag website at (non sponsor removed) and check out the carbontex drag washers. DO NOT get the old green or black smoothies. (Non sponsor removed) order up a set of drag washers and some of cal's drag washer grease. she is absolutely one of the nicest people in the world. and tell her alan said hi!

next, go the the ambassaduer website and find the schematic for your reel. just as an example, i'm going to pick ambassaduer -> c3 -> 5500 -> 9909.pdf. let's start....

start with the left side plate. back off one screw (key #199) ONLY. squirt a small amount of grease into the screw hole and put the screw back!!!! do not remove the side plate. remove the next two screws, one at a time, and grease them as well.

http://www.yourfishpictures.com/data/500/medium/100_0719.JPG

remove the handle nut cap and screw (key #'s 14868, 96274 and 15359)

http://www.yourfishpictures.com/data/500/medium/100_0722.JPG

remove the c-clip (key #4490)

http://www.yourfishpictures.com/data/500/medium/100_0726.JPG

remove the handle nut (key #15359), the handle (key # 24500), the stainless steel spring (key # 5115), the star (key # 24502) and the cast control knob (key #'s 21717, 20917, and 20090)

http://www.yourfishpictures.com/data/500/medium/100_0730.JPG

remove the right side plate assembly (note that this photo shows the cast control knob still in place. it must be removed first).

http://www.yourfishpictures.com/data/500/medium/100_0728.JPG

separate the reel as shown below.

http://www.yourfishpictures.com/data/500/medium/100_0731.JPG

lube the level wind assembly.

http://www.yourfishpictures.com/data/500/medium/100_0732.JPG

lube the left spool bearing (key #13472) by popping out the nylon sprocket gear (key #23403). don't forget to pop it back in!

http://www.yourfishpictures.com/data/500/medium/100_0733.JPG

lube the right spool bearing (key #13472)

http://www.yourfishpictures.com/data/500/medium/100_0734.JPG

replace the spool assembly (key #970823) back into the frame and insert the spool shaft (key #802630)

http://www.yourfishpictures.com/data/500/medium/100_0735.JPG

now, for the right side plate. remove the two right side plate bridge screws (key # 5229)

http://www.yourfishpictures.com/data/500/medium/100_0736.JPG

NOTE THIS IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE: older reels have a more reliable anti-reverse dog (key #20671). note that the dog has to "grab" the ratchet gear at base of the gear sleeve (key #22079), as shown in the schematic that i've chosen to work with. newer reels have a less reliable anti-reverse roller bearing, as shown in the photo below

if you have a dog, note the proper position of the dog now, and make sure it is reassembled in the same way.

remove the right side plate cover (key #24511). note that the anti-reverse roller bearing sleeve and the two cupped pressure washers (key #5131) stayed with the side plate cover.

http://www.yourfishpictures.com/data/500/medium/100_0738.JPG

grease the screw holes

http://www.yourfishpictures.com/data/500/medium/100_0743.JPG

separate the drag/gear cluster as shown. note left to right, the ....

thrust washer (key #5189)
gear sleeve (key # 22079)
fiber washer (key # 13169)
main gear (key #21200)
3 alternating drag washers (key #20907)
flat slotted metal washer (key #20906)
flat keyed metal washer (key #20905)
cupped slotted metal washer (key #20960)

also shown in the photo are four new carbon fiber drag washers and a second flat slotted metal washer. ignore the second flat slotted metal washer.

http://www.yourfishpictures.com/data/500/medium/100_0739.JPG

apply a generous coat of cal or shimano drag grease to the new carbontex drag washers, rebuild the gear drag/gear cluster and discard the orginal ambassaduer drag washers.


if your reel has a dog (key # 20671), put the dog back onto the ratchet gear (key # 22079), install the spacer (key #22001) and then drop the drag/gear cluster back onto the right side plate base (key #24508) .

if your reel has an anti-reverse roller bearing, replace the roller bearing sleeve as shown in the photo below.

http://www.yourfishpictures.com/data/500/medium/100_0744.JPG

replace the right side plate bridge screws (key # 13369) and install the cupped pressure washers in a "()" orientation as shown below.

http://www.yourfishpictures.com/data/500/medium/100_0749.JPG

find the small white plastic brakes on the spool (key #20211) and press them in. failure to do this and the right side plate assembly may not seat properly.

http://www.yourfishpictures.com/data/500/medium/100_0750.JPG

install the right side plate assembly back onto the frame. make sure that the brakes are pressed "in" and that the anti-reverse dog is also "in." the right side plate assembly should seat cleanly, flush and with a "snap." tighten down the three right side plate screws. now check to make sure that the gear sleeve (key # 22079) turns freely and that the anti-reverse mechanism functions properly.

http://www.yourfishpictures.com/data/500/medium/100_0751.JPG

install the cast control cap assembly.

http://www.yourfishpictures.com/data/500/medium/100_0752.JPG

http://www.yourfishpictures.com/data/500/medium/100_0753.JPG

install the star and spring.

http://www.yourfishpictures.com/data/500/medium/100_0754.JPG

grease and install the handle.

http://www.yourfishpictures.com/data/500/medium/100_0755.JPG

install the handle nut and c-clip

http://www.yourfishpictures.com/data/500/medium/100_0756.JPG

install the handle nut cap and retaining screw.

http://www.yourfishpictures.com/data/500/medium/100_0757.JPG

pat yourself on the back and have a beer. well done!

[Kevin Newell]

Wow!!! One of the best posts I've ever seen.

Thank you! :bowdown:

[Starfish]

Wow! Great pictorial instructions, thanks for posting it. I hope Smoothdrag is (or can soon become) an ifish sponsor so the contact information can be left in. Anyway, I have one question... did you replace the smaller size fiber washer (#13169) with one of the full size drag washers (the size of a #20907 drag washer)? No problem doing that?

Thanks again!

[LIV2FISH]

Great post!! :cheers:

[PinkMasta]

nice post, i have an ambassador, and i agree, one minute i love it, the next i hate it!

[AnnaDraMoss]

you rock. now i might have the confidence to try this myself. thank you. excellent info and pictoral.

[Fshklr]

Great post..unfortunately I missed the info you provided to get the washers, gotta remember the AUP :wink:..
sent a pm for info please :bowdown:

:cheers:

[Jennie@ifish]

Yes, that was a tough one to edit. Very nice, informational post!

Please... when you link non sponsors know that it will be removed. I have gone through all your posts and removed lots of links. I realize you are trying to be helpful, but I have to respect the deals that I have made with those that pay for our banter on ifish.

Please read the AUP on ifish for more information.

Thank you,

Jen

[Dragfreedrift]

AWESOME POST!!!.....I love my Ambassadeurs, I know they may not be the "ferrari" of the reel world, but IMO, they are the longest-lived steelhead reel in my gear bag. I have used mine hundreds of times (thousands of casts) and they just keep on going.

DFD

[KChookem]

Hi Alan...

Can you advise how to tell which schematic goes with a particular reel?

I have Ambassadeurs that range in age from one month, to twenty years old. In the past I've tried to match the serial number on the reel foot to a schematic, but I've never been able to see a clear relationship (but then, I'm not the brightest bulb either).

Thanks !!

[snit]

WOW...what a neat post! You put alot of time into this one!

I did the supersmoothie update 2 years ago on 4 reels, and I was far from pleased with the results. Like alot of people, I love my 6500c's for the price and smoothness, but the drags suck after a season! Are the carbon fiber washers new? I might have to try a drag replacement "one more time"!

[Fish_N_Russ]

Nice post but ive never had any drag problems with my abu's........I get either new drag washers to replace those that are 'glazed over' or rough them up with emery pad.

[Steel Neurosis]

I did a quick Google on the term "carbontex drag washers" (use the quote marks too) and easily came up with the edited out manufacturer's name and contact info.

I've got 2 of the 6501's C3's that I use for my steelhead plug rods. These are great reels, and I am hoping the addition of the washers will make them even better.

Thanks for the awesome post and pics...that's the kind of detail we *mechanical wonders* need to keep from screwing things up...

Mike

[alantani]

Yes, that was a tough one to edit. Very nice, informational post! Please... when you link non sponsors know that it will be removed. I have gone through all your posts and removed lots of links. I realize you are trying to be helpful, but I have to respect the deals that I have made with those that pay for our banter on ifish. Please read the AUP on ifish for more information. Thank you,
Jen



jen, sorry, i didn't know that. i don't post here often and just "clicked" rather than "read" when i signed on. i will be sure to leave them out. thanks!

[alantani]

Hi Alan... Can you advise how to tell which schematic goes with a particular reel? I have Ambassadeurs that range in age from one month, to twenty years old. In the past I've tried to match the serial number on the reel foot to a schematic, but I've never been able to see a clear relationship (but then, I'm not the brightest bulb either). Thanks !!


sorry, i'm with you on this one. it's important to have the reel in hand when you call ambassaduer for parts. if you are sitting at a computer when you call, they can tell you which schematic matches up. there have been so many small changes to their reels, i don't see how anyone can keep things straight. alan

[Doryfisher]

great post..........

[StickFish]

I don't know if this is a universal tip on Abu's or not but when I'm done fishing I back the drag all the way off = now granted I don't have tons of fish on these reels yet but the drag has been very smooth.

I'll have to look into the new carbon fiber washers - thanks

[Starfish]

Stickfish, that's a universal tip for ALL reels. Backing off the drag for storage is always a good idea.

[Thumper]

I'm with StickFish. I've been using Ambassadeurs since 1970 ( :bigshock:) and have never had a problem with the drag. The key with these products is to back off the drags after every use.

[alantani]

well, greased carbon fiber is a little different. you can leave the drag washers cranked down or back them off. either way, they will last forever. if you keep them clamped down, you can keep water out for sure.

both cal sheets and shimano have a pure teflon grease. they both cost $5 an ounce and have melting temps of about 650 degrees farenheit. coarse woven carbon fiber is used by all penn reels (the ht-100), shimano (two speeds only), all accurates, progear (classic series only), ambassaduer (the record only), all tiburons, large okumas (two speeds only?) and daiwa (two speeds only). of these reels, only the shimano two speeds enjoy a zero failure rate, because the drags are greased.

it's important at this point to make sure we're not talking apples and oranges. my definition of drag failure is different from most people. so here's how i determine if a drag is functioning properly. put the reel on the rod and run the line through the guides. pick your desired drag setting, typically 25-33% of your line weight, sometimes less. find a lead weight that matches. tie the line to the weight. reel down. crank down on the drag. lift until the butt of the rod is at a 45 degree angle. now adjust the drag until the weight drops 1 foot every 5 seconds. if the drag on your reel is smooth enough to do that, then i say it works just fine. if it's herky jerky at all, then, by my standards, it fails.

all reels that cross my bench get greased carbon fiber drags and have to pass that test before they are returned to their owners. and i've never had someone return a reel to me because the drags "failed."

[Yamhillbilly]

nice info alan, I have had all my newer ambassaduers retrofitted with the old stlye anti reverse dogs, they newer ones would start failing with in 2-3 seasons of moderate to heavy use. The chance to improve the drags has me fired up i would rather let the drag do more work and let my thumb heal up

[Yamhillbilly]

light rods, light line, smooooooth drag sounds like steelheadin to me

[Lucky 13]

Thanks for the excellent post!!

[Lucky 13]

TTT

[Chetco River]

Great Post Thanks

[alantani]

nice info alan, I have had all my newer ambassaduers retrofitted with the old stlye anti reverse dogs, they newer ones would start failing with in 2-3 seasons of moderate to heavy use. The chance to improve the drags has me fired up i would rather let the drag do more work and let my thumb heal up



funny you mention that. shimano had the same problem with their calcutta line of reels. they had an anti-reverse roller bearing as their only anti-reverse mechanism. lots of guys got their knuckles banged when the roller bearing failed.

the new calcutta reels all have a dog in addition to an anti-reverse roller bearing. very nice reels. i just bought a calcutta 300 and love it. well, i do now after dumping the dartanium drags in favor of penn ht-100 drag washers and shimano drag grease.

[Mark Mc]

Hi Alan, so I see you "strayed" here from Coastside / Fullspeed. Do you have any connections in the NW?

I go by the same name on Coastside, but you'll have to guess my name on Fullspeed :grin:.

Come on up & visit sometime, esp. if you forget what an albacore looks like.

See Ya,

Mark

[bluehewes]

Awesome post! :cheers:

[KChookem]

When this thread has run its course, I suggest it be given permanent status in the "Tech Tips and Keepers" forum. I believe this will enhance at least one other thread there.

[Lucky 13]

Couldn't agree more with KChookem! Let's put this somewhere that we will be able to use it again and again. (The only problem is that the pictures don't save, and that is the best part of the post.)

[Starfish]

I have a question on grease. How important is it to use Shimano drag grease? What would happen if you used Quantum reel grease on the drags?

[alantani]

my answer would be "i think it's critical" and "i don't know for sure but i believe the drags would seize immediately."

i'm really not sure why it works the way it does. teflon grease, either cal's or shimano's, keeps these carbon fiber drags smooth forever. my penn 113h's are still good after 8 years. on the flip side, i've seen hundreds of drag washers that have seized up after being fouled with wd-40, reel magic, corrosion x and any one of a dozen hydrocarbon greases.

understand, gentlemen, i'm a pharmacist, not a polymer chemist. this is what i know about teflon grease. you start with a liquid fluoropolymer (liquid Teflon) such as a perfluoropoly ether. to thicken it up, you add varying amounts of PTFE (poly tetrafluoro ethylene). this will give you the desired viscosity. their melting point is 650 degrees, but it has no flash point. since there are no carbon-hydrogen bonds, these compounds will not burn. i think that's what makes this grease ideal for drag washers. there is none of the physical or chemical breakdown that you would find with petroleum grease. in short, teflon grease doesn't burn.

um, it's also $5 an ounce! :hoboy:

[Lucky 13]

Where can I find the Shimano or Cal's grease?

[alantani]

the shimano service center can ship some to you. local tackle shops that carry shimano reels can order the grease for you. for the drag grease, do a google search for smoothdrag.com. e-mail me it you're still having problems. thanks! alan

[Lucky 13]

Just got my new washers in the mail and can't wait to install them. Thanks for all the help and pictures!

[FastAction]

I am about to do 10 reels and talking with Ollies they said do not grease the carbonteks and they will become Jerk-ee.

Mikes in Newberg suggest light greas on the washers.

What do I do?:smash:

[Hanapa'a Time]

Grease them.

All my Avets, Calcuttas and Tekotas have greased drags, several Yellowtail, dorado, tuna, sturgeon, lings and fall nooks have fallen to these reels this season. Drags are still smoooooth and strong, even after fresh and/or saltwater baths.

[FastAction]

just picked up my carbontex at Ollies, once agian they stressed to NOT grease the drag washers.. Something to the fact that the Shimano Systems get greased and garcia systems are a "Dry System". His response was "Whould you grease your disc brakes on your car?"

Mine are going in Dry!:smash:

[dog]

I did 11 of the (4)5501,(5)6501, and (1) 7000 this summer in prep for Buoy 10.
They worked great at Buoy 10. I put them in DRY at the insistence of the people I bought them from to not use grease on the ABUs. How would they work with Grease? I don't know but I know they were awesome without. I also have no idea about how long they will last dry versus greased either.

[Hanapa'a Time]

"Whould you grease your disc brakes on your car?"

That saying has been used on several boards in the grease vs non-grease drag washer debate. Not a very good analogy, in several aspects. I will not get into a debate over this.

Accurate, Diawa, Newell, Penn, Shimano and several other well respected manufactures use greased drag washers for a reason.

I owned ABU's and got tired of having to replace the drags every season.

[FastAction]

Ok I greased one set on a 6500 and Left 1 set dry on a 5500.

You can tell the greased set is WAY more smooth, it almost feels like my shimano curado.

Maybe they will work both ways..

[Hanapa'a Time]

From my experience the greased washers help to prevent water contamination/intrusion in the drag system as well as dissipate heat.

Good luck and let us know how your results turn out:cheers:

[Dinikin]

Seems that in a short run, dry drag washer will perform better, but in the long run greased washer will be smoother, last longer, but not provide as much stopping power as "new" dry ones.
Each choice has it's trade offs.

[FastAction]

So far I have had no problems with the greased drags they feel great and work great but honsetly I cant tell the difference since I am a thumber!!

[Jennie@ifish]

Bummer. If anyone wants to write to Alantini and tell him that his valuable pictures are missing that were hosted on "yourfishpictures.com" please, do.

Otherwise, we are left with no pictures to his most excellent tutorials. :(