Loss of Salvation? [Archive]

in 'em

09-15-2005, 09:20 AM

Can a believer lose his/her salvation? What are your thoughts on this topic?

Grantspastor

09-15-2005, 12:46 PM

Controversy for sure. One position holds "once saved, always saved". Another "saved, lost..saved, lost.
In my opinion a careful study of Scripture reveals that in EXTREME cases it is posible for a person to lose salvation. It would take more than backsliding for this to happen. It would take rejecting the sacrifice and shed blood of Jesus. If a person were to come to that extreme position, then God simply doesn't offer any other plan of Salvation. The other side of the coin is that all believers are VERY secure in their salvation.

FastActionRodTip

09-15-2005, 02:30 PM

yeah, I think it's possible...one can be a believer...but choose to disobey...believing alone is not enough, God expects reverence, honor and obedience...seems to me if one does not obey his commandments, and is unrepentant, and only He will be able to judge true repentance, then one might find him/herself needing some eternal sunscreen

in 'em

09-15-2005, 03:17 PM

Okay, what do you think of this letter/document?

Can a “True Christian” lose Salvation?

Once one has had a true conversion and is “fully Christian”, is it possible for them to sin? I think we can agree that the answer is yes. Now, are they only capable of certain sin or all sin? Are some sins worse than others? Do certain sins cause a loss of salvation?
If you think a “fully Christian” person is capable of only certain sins, let me ask this…Why is sin in the world? Adam and Eve? Yes. Ultimately though, it was Satan who brought sin into this world and he is why there is sin. I think we can agree on that. Is every sin Satan’s doing? I feel the answer to that is yes, every sin is because of Satan. Hopefully we agree on that as well. If every sin is Satan, and we agree that a “fully Christian” person can sin, then it is safe to say that Satan caused that sin and has “access to” or a “foothold on” every “fully Christian” individual. If Satan can gain one little “foothold” or one little “opening for access” on a “fully Christian” person, can he not cause other sins, more sin, or even overtake a person for a period? If Satan can tempt the perfect (Adam and Eve) into sin, it is my feeling that he can do the same with us.
So, I feel that a “fully Christian” individual is not only capable of certain sins, but all sins. This leads to the next question, are some sins worse than others? Some say it's the motivation behind the sin that counts, not necessarily the sin itself. I feel that certain sins are worse than others, but I haven’t studied up on this thought. It just seems to me that judgment day, jewels in the crown, rewards, etc. all lean towards the thought of levels to sin. However, I suppose it could simply be judgment based on quantity not quality…I don’t know. Anyway, this thought is not necessarily important to the next.
Can certain sins cause one to lose his/her salvation? If it was possible for a “fully Christian” person to lose their salvation, what would be the cause? Sin, but what amount of sin or how bad of a sin? No one knows. Now, if a “fully Christian” person is indeed capable of all sin and not simply certain sin, it would be possible to lose his/her salvation, correct? Yes.
However, if one sin…or…a lot of sin can cause loss of salvation, that would have to mean that Jesus death on The Cross did not cover that sin and was only for certain sin and not all sin. If Christ died for ALL of our sins, then I would say that “fully Christian” people are capable of all sin, otherwise He would have only needed to die for those sins that are not considered to cause loss of salvation.
Do you think that Christ’s death covered all sins before one was converted and from that point forward they don’t have that same “full coverage”?
My current conclusion to this whole topic is that a “true” Christian cannot lose his or her salvation. Also, once one has gone through a true conversion and is “fully Christian” they will still sin and are capable of not just simple sins, but all sins. Therefore, I feel a person being sexually immoral or someone going to the bar and getting drunk doesn’t necessarily mean they have not attained salvation nor have they lost it, but have fallen away or gotten caught up in sin.
It is my feeling that we, as true believers (and I like the term “true believer” a little better than “fully Christian” simply because no one person is “fully Christian”…but the term “fully Christian” does have its advantages =)) it is our job to not only share God’s word to unbelievers and bring them to Christ, but also to keep our brothers and sisters accountable and to lift fellow believer’s up! We would not be called or directed to keep each other accountable and to lift each other up if we were not to ever fall.
I guess the ultimate question for debate is how we know we have had a true conversion. How do you know whether or not you (or your boss, friend, whoever) have had a true conversion and have attained a secured salvation? I am confident that no true believer will lose salvation, but how does one know that they are a “true” believer?
I have in know way mastered any of this and I may have completely different thoughts in 10 years.

rimrock

09-15-2005, 04:35 PM

I’d agree with most all you shared, except that Satan is the cause of all sin. Then I wouldn’t be truly cope able before God, for the “devil made me do it” and not because of my rejection of God’s will in my life. Certainly the present of Satan in the Garden did result in the fall of man.

I appreciate the thought you have put into this rather important question! Many good quotes I could highlight. I really liked your understanding that Christians are capable of all sin…my nature is no different than anyone else, Christ’s atonement of all sin not just certain ones for certain people (that’s pretty Lutheran :applause: :grin:), and if we have had a “true conversion”. Allow me to reflect on this a little more.

Dullhook

09-15-2005, 05:10 PM

We are all mortal human beings as well as sinners. Christians, Jews, all believers. Only our Lord God is holy and perfect, and without sin.

His love for us manifested through Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, allows for forgiveness of our sins.

To believe is to have confidence or faith in the holy truth, as well as salvation. When we pray for forgiveness, we are forgiven by our loving and merciful Lord, but only if in our heart and soul, we vow to not commit the same sin again, or any other sin. Otherwise we are not TRUE believers.

As for whether or not my boss, friend, whoever, has had a true conversion, this is not for me to judge.

As for me personally, this is between my Lord God and myself, all I can do is to try to improve myself in His eyes each day. To try to attempt in my feeble way, to be more like His Son Jesus Christ, and to honor the love that he has blessed me with. :flowered:

DAB

09-15-2005, 06:20 PM

Here is some info on eternal life

ETERNAL LIFE

A person's new and redeemed existence in Jesus Christ which is granted by God as a gift to all believers. Eternal life refers to the quality or character of our new existence in Christ as well as the unending character of this life. The phrase, everlasting life, is found in the Old Testament only once (Dan 12:2). But the idea of eternal life is implied by the prophets in their pictures of the glorious future promised to God's people.

The majority of references to eternal life in the New Testament are oriented to the future. The emphasis, however, is upon the blessed character of the life that will be enjoyed endlessly in the future. Jesus made it clear that eternal life comes only to those who make a total commitment to Him (Matt 19:16-21; Luke 18:18-22). Paul's letters refer to eternal life relatively seldom, and again primarily with a future rather than a present orientation (Rom 5:21; 6:22; Gal 6:8).

The phrase, eternal life, appears most often in the Gospel of John and the Epistle of 1 John. John emphasizes eternal life as the present reality and the present possession of the Christian (John 3:36; 5:24; 1 John 5:13). John declares that the Christian believer has already begun to experience the blessings of the future even before their fullest expression: "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent" (John 17:3).
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright (c)1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

ETERNAL LIFE

ETERNAL LIFE. This is a priceless treasure, the gift of God. It is not to be confused with mere endless existence, which all possess, saved as well as unsaved. Christ said, "I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly" (John 10:10). This life is nothing less than "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Col 1:27). It is likened to a birth from above (John 3:3; 1:13) and is dependent upon receiving Christ as Savior. "He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life" (1 John 5:12). Eternal life must not be confused with natural life. This form of life is subject to death and is derived by human generation. Spiritual life has a beginning but no end. The difference is that one possessing mere natural life will be separated eternally from God in the lake of fire, whereas the one possessing eternal life will be united and in fellowship with God for all eternity. Thus, separation from God is eternal death; union with God is eternal life.

ETERNAL
Eternal Life: Our Lord decisively set the element of time in abeyance, and took His stand upon the fact and quality of life-life endless by its own nature. Of that eternal life He is Himself the guarantee-"Because I live, ye shall live also" (John 14:19). Therefore said Augustine, "Join thyself to the eternal God, and thou wilt be eternal."

DAB

fishnwHim

09-15-2005, 10:03 PM

There have been several very interesting things that have come up since this post started that I will be interested to see more discussion on when I return from FISHING !! I would like to chime in on your original Question, (Can you lose your salvation) My belief is no you cannot, here is why I believe this. As a father of a wonderful , but certainly not perfect teenager, I have had occasion to give her many gifts , because I love her. When her behavior is bad ( sin ) the thought of taking back those gifts never crosses my mind. Our salvation is a gift from God, when we have accepted that gift ( become a believer) He will never take it back, because He gave it in Love, a Love much greater than the love I have for my daughter. I do however believe that if we were of sound mind and made a decision to return the gift that it would be possible to do so, because of free will. I can't however imagine why anyone would return such a woderful gift as eternal life with Jesus. Thank you Jesus for your gift you have given us !!! :bowdown:

rimrock

09-15-2005, 10:49 PM

One cannot lose what one does not have. The author of the Book of Life is solely God. The question rightly is do we have a real faith or a said faith?

Let’s look at Judas. If anyone of us lived at this time we to, as did the disciples, believe Judas was the real deal. He certainly was no different most likely did the miracles the other disciples were doing, He too was chosen by Jesus as one of the Twelve!!! But no man can see wither one is saved or not; only God sees the heart. God knows who His sheep are and it says His sheep know Him. They listen to His voice and follow Him. This is the point do you, do I, do anyone of us follow Jesus – do we listen to Him, do we know His will for our lives. Or are we following as did Judas solely for what the Lord can do for us, when it’s convenient, or when it suits our purposes? Are we there for Him and to grow in His likeness? Do I love Him or do I love what I can get from Him?

It’s not that a believer is perfect. Peter, who truly loved the Lord, denied ever knowing Him calling down vile oaths on His name. Yet Peter was broken by it and most importantly turned back to God with a repentant heart. Judas I believe did feel sorrow but wouldn’t turn back to God for he was never following God anyway.

Do we listen and follow His voice? Do we daily take up our cross and follow Him? Do we turn back to Him when we fail? I’ll say again, WHEN we fail. If anyone of us is looking to Him because we want to be with Him, He will not reject. Any loving father doesn’t turn away a child who just wants to sit on their lap. The child cannot “do” anything for the dad; the child just loves him and wants to be close to him. An earthy father does this how much more will God “who is perfect do for those who ask Him.”

My 2-year old little boy is not how we say “obedient” in fact he isn’t even capable of the idea couldn’t even grasp the concept, but I’m his father and he is my son. I too am not how do we say “obedient” my nature is no different than my own son’s I can hide it much better, but it’s not different; God is my Father and I am His son. Faith is based on and given BY God and maintained BY His promises, not on what I can do for Him or on my performance. Just like my little boy he IS my son NO MATTER WHAT! It’s love that defines the relationship, my love for him which results in his love for me. Nathan doesn’t love a stranger nor will he follow one down the street; it’s my voice he recognizes. He knows it.

You cannot lose the gift once you have it. Do we have it like Peter or do we “have” it like Judas? Do we know the Good Shepherds voice? Will we follow Him where He leads?

"We love becasue He first loved us." (1 John). To Him be the Glory!

happybrew

09-15-2005, 11:25 PM

Rev 7:14-16: 14 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: `The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation. 15 "`I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth.

feisty's wife

09-16-2005, 05:00 AM

+If you cannot be lost, then you cannot be saved, there is no 'turn or burn', would any of you consign one of your kid's to hell for eternity just because they were born with a defect? Hell[pardon the pun], I think not. Folk's, I do not buy the Adam and Eve 'original sin' story, I beleive in re-incarnation, this Earth is merely a school, there are also other school's, all over the Universe. Allow your paradigm[sp] to grow.

in 'em

09-16-2005, 08:21 AM

FastActionRodTip

09-16-2005, 09:30 AM

rimrock

09-16-2005, 09:53 AM

one thing that I just don't understand is the Jewish faith. The Israelites are God's chosen people. Christians believe in the Resurrection but the Jews do not. Christians believe that you must believe in Jesus Christ who died for our sins to make it to Heaven, but the Jews do not. Who's right? One group has to be wrong, right? How could God's chosen people be wrong? I'm baffled by so much contradiction it makes my head spin.

That’s another really great question. Maybe it would be best to start another thread since the answer moves in a different direction than loss of salvation. It’s not completely separate per se but a somewhat different focus. It’s a very good question to ask.

FastActionRodTip

09-16-2005, 09:59 AM

yup, your right...easy to get off track...I only have 1 question about religion, but it has 832 parts to it

rimrock

09-16-2005, 10:19 AM

...I only have 1 question about religion, but it has 832 parts to it

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

only have 832 parts :jester:, looks like you're better off than me. :cool:

Dullhook

09-16-2005, 07:42 PM

To believe is to have confidence or faith in the holy truth, as well as salvation. When we pray for forgiveness, we are forgiven by our loving and merciful Lord, but only if in our heart and soul, we vow to not commit the same sin again, or any other sin. Otherwise we are not TRUE believers.

So you believe that if a person commits the same sin twice or any other sin than we lose our salvation and are not believer's? Explain what you mean.

I'm sorry I wasn't very clear on this, but I'll try to explain, In'em.

Yes, almost everyone commits the same sin more than once, and no I don't believe we lose our salvation over this. As human beings we are fallible, and our memories are not perfect. It's a matter of conscience and intent.

God gave each of us a conscience to know the difference between right and wrong.

If for example: Someone goes into a store, is overcome by temptation, and steals a food item, and takes it home and eats it. Later he is overcome by guilt, knows he has committed a sin, and prays to Jesus for forgiveness, vowing to steal no more. By our faith we believe he would be forgiven.

Two weeks later he is walking down the street and a man in front of him drops a wallet. He picks it up, knows he should return it in his heart and soul, but keeps it anyway.

Is this a true believer? Will he be forgiven for this sin again, even though he knew he was forsaking the forgivness that the Lord granted him the first time? How about the next ten times?

If a person repeatedly sins, knowing in his soul that he's forsaking our Lord's love and trust, is this true belief and faith?

We'll all have to draw on our own perception of God's laws to reason this.

DAB

09-16-2005, 08:13 PM

rimrock

09-16-2005, 09:40 PM

Is this a true believer? Will he be forgiven for this sin again, even though he knew he was forsaking the forgivness that the Lord granted him the first time? How about the next ten times?

If a person repeatedly sins, knowing in his soul that he's forsaking our Lord's love and trust, is this true belief and faith?

That sure is at the heart of it isn’t. Good questions and so many fine discussions from each person in this thread. We all agree we cannot know if some else is saved, but that’s not really the point is it. Scripture asks for each of us to “Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you — unless, of course, you fail the test?” (2 Cor 13:5)

Notice it’s whether you are in the faith, not lost faith. It cannot be lost once Christ Jesus is in you. We may fail the test meaning we never had it to begin with. Also DAB highlighted a great verse, we all agree no doubt we are always with sin. So are we with Christ? Once we are nothing can separate us for His love, not our sin either if that were true we would all be lost.

Dullhook and in'em point in a good direction can one be a disciple of Christ and live a life of continual unrepentance. “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” (Rom 6:1-3). These verses don’t mean to say we are without sinful acts; rather we are no longer “slaves to sin”. Sin is no longer the master of us, but God’s Spirit.

The point is over time when each of us looks back over our lives, do we see a difference? Not perfection, but are we different? God’s graces transforms us and we will be changed in ways which bring glory to God. It varies according to God’s plan and purpose, but we are secure. The transformation may be great or small, that’s not relevant. The relevance is it was God’s doing, and He’s not about to stop…“being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.” (Phil 1:6).

FireCat

09-16-2005, 10:56 PM

I have studied on both sides of the track here. I once was taught that I could LOOSE my salvation. Then I was taught, by attending a different Denomation, that I could NEVER loose my Salvation. So many years down the road I thought it would be nice if I would study and see what I would come up with, Just me and the Lord. Now there are good points on both sides, and there is not enough room here to put scripture down for defending both sides. But please understand I have come up with my own reason why I believe like i do. and saying that It is my own conclusion from my understanding and studing scripture. Trying to put contex against contex. Now this will be short and sweet, and I will not argue with nobody on this. nor does there need to be a debate. For it is setteled in my soul. I was tossed back and forth on this subject untell I read Romans and did a very good greek and Hebrew word study. now for the word study I will get back to that, but for now Romans is the clincher. I am sorry but my 15 Bibles are in the other room because we are recarpeting the house. so ill do this from memory and you can check it out by reading Romans. I love Romans because it was written to Gentiles, like me. Now In Romans it tells us that we were chosen by God by his forknowlege before the foundations of the world to be his. also it says that he will never let us fall out of his hand and also Romans tells us that NOTHING! even hell itself can take us away from OUR LORD. Now can we walk away fro the Lord? sure we can, but how long will we stay away? that is the question. Remember when Christ was talking about drinking his blood and eating his flesh, and many followers left. He ask Peter "why dont you leave to Peter?" and Peter said " where would I go". There is the answer. Jesus also said "some will walk away" but wondering sheep will hear the masters voice and return. Jesus told his deceiples that "you have not chosen me, for I have chosen you" and as for Judas, he was chosen also, chosen to betray the Lord. and many will ask "did Judas even have a chance"? we will never know this side of heaven. and that is a subject in all itself. For God harden Pharo,s heart. he can do as he wishes, for he is God. So after reading Romans I have come to the conclusion that I cannot loose what God has promised me, and that is eternity with him. Dont ever forget Brothers and Sisters If a lamb wanders to much the shepard will break its leg, and reset it, and then carry it to keep it safe from danger. My leg has been broken before by the shepard, and it comforts me to know that the Lord did it to protect me from evil and distruction, I didnt like it, it hurt, but He wasnt going to set still and let me wander away. Now getting back to the Greek and Hebrew word study, The Greek and the Hebrew words that transalate "SALVATION" and "SAVED" include "SECURITY". Check out the meanning of these words, you wil find out that when a person says "I AM SAVED" It not only means "I have been delivered from sin hell and judgment", but it also means that " I am secure and God keeps me safe". Now with that being said if you say "I believe you are saved , but I can believe you can be lost" is really a contradiction in terms. I dont care what name is above the Church door , many just dont know what the bible teaches about Jesus said when he promised to save us. In Jude 1 the word says "Jude, the servent of Jesus Crist and brother of James, to them that are santified by God the father AND PRESERVED, in Jesus Christ". The Bible also teaches we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. We are sealed by the 3rd person of the God head, the Holy Spirit. The Angles of the Lord encamp about those who fear him. THE WHOLE TRINITY keeps us, and just for good measure, the Angles are keeping us safe and watching over Gods Children. Brothers and Sisters thats more than the Devil can handle. Now for those in the letter to the seven Churches in Revalation that were luke warm. dont forget this termanoligy of "SPEWING YOU OUT OF MY MOUTH" Is also used in the Gosples where many will say to me that day Lord, Lord have not we done good works in your name, We have cast out demons, done miricles. and he said "depart from me you who work iniquity I never knew you". So yes there can be Churches that preach Christ, but its for self serving reasons and the works that they do are for there own pleasure not his. So I have come to the final conclusion that I rest asured that through my sinful nature, and sinful habits I can not be perfect. But the Lord is and its through that perfection that forever will keep me safe and sacure. Through his death and reserection. For I was thought of before the foundation of the world to be his child. And this child will be sacure in that.

happybrew

09-17-2005, 07:05 AM

There's some great stuff here, Rimrock and Firecat. I think you bring up very complex semantic issues of whether or not someone who "loses their salvation" every really had it to begin with. I think a wrong look at this can be dangerous, as Christ, the apostles, and the Old Testament prophets continually warn us of the results of sin, but also of the mercy of God.

On the one hand, the apostle John says "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." as DAB already pointed out, but he then goes on to say "And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:
6 he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."

On the one hand, we have John saying that if we sin, we can rely upon the mercy of God. On the other hand, John says that the person who disobeys God's commandments does not know God.

So can I say that I am saved? I can say that is my hope. Do I know that I am saved? If I accept what you two have to say, I would have to say, "No, I don't know that", for the final test would prove or disprove it. If I were to say today that I am saved and lead an apparently good life, then ditch my wife, shack up with a mistress, and beat my dog every day until I die, that would be proof that in fact I had not been saved at all.

As a practical matter, the doctrine of "once saved always saved" leads to one of three things. Either one is correct that one is saved, or one wrongly and arrogantly presumes that one is saved, or one is left in doubt regarding whether one has been saved.

The one who is correct, I won't concern myself with. Let's look first at the one who is left in doubt. Suppose Joe Churchgoer has repented from a lifetime of beating his dog and stealing from his kids' piggy banks, and in "sackcloth and ashes" resolves to amend his life. Suppose further that he has picked up a habit of lying and using the Lord's name in vain, and he does this without reflection, automatically in stressful situations. This distresses him greatly, because according to John's epistle, breaking the commandments is proof that one does not abide in God's love. Occasionally, he even slips up and kicks the dog too. Saved? Joe has his doubts, as do many others who witness his behavior. There is much in Scripture to suggest he is, though. "But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, `God, be merciful to me a sinner!" (Mat 18:13)

Let's now examine the person who arrogantly presumes that he is saved. He goes to church twice a week. He teaches the children in Sunday school. He tithes. He has no bad habits. He does not break the commandments. But he has no love. He tithes without love, because it is duty. He teaches Sunday school because it is good for his reputation. He believes in God, to be sure, but he does not allow the Holy Spirit into his life for a radical transformation. In fact, not much has changed in his life at all after coming to faith. Is he saved? Despite what he and others think, there is much in Scripture to suggest he is not. "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, `God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector."

Now which of these dogs hunts? The one which spurs the sinner to repentance, or the one that leads to presumption and spiritual inaction, or the one which leads to despair? For myself, I will not despair, nor will I presume, but persevere, for when I read the verses which support Firecat's position, I know that I must not despair, but when I read the verses which do not support Firecat's position, I know that I must not presume, and I will leave the theological loose ends for God to sort out.

happybrew

FireCat

09-17-2005, 09:20 AM

Now let me say this, and that is all must come to a repentance of sin. I dont want to make it sound that I ask God to be my savior now that is it. I am a guilty sinner my sinfull nature has taken on a heavenly nature and they are at war inside me. But what make me feel sacure is when my inperfection pervales, The Holy Spirits perfect love forgives. And I am as though I have never sined. Because I have accepted his glorious mercy. When I sin my Spirit is moved as though I have done wrong! That is where the Sealing of the Spirit kicks in. To show me and to guide me. and I am very sacure in that. If you sin and here is no guilt then there is the problem, are you saved?. Because I was saved, am being saved and will always be saved. Our presious Lord is Past , presant and future. You may ask "have you walked away before?" I sure have but like I said before as a wondering lamb the shepard took his cain and broke my leg, he reset it and then he carried me. He did this so I wouldnt get attact by any Wolves. Then when I was healed up he put me down and let me scamper about again this time if i wandered, I would hear his voice and I would understand the concequences, and return. What more mercy and grace can keep you more sacure than that.

grsteelies

09-17-2005, 11:13 AM

Hey guys, who needs church when we got all you great biblical scholars? Thanks for all the great insight on this tough to grasp subject. As a god loving man, it is hard to think that God would "turn his back" on any of us. But I was taught about the "Unpardonable Sin." To directly runaway from, or talk in blasphamous ways about the Lord, shows such wanten disrespect for his great sacrific of his only son. Just my families thoughts on this. I think those that really have the Lord in their hearts can lose their salvation. But those pretenders really had nothing to lose in the first place.

happybrew

09-17-2005, 05:44 PM

I dont want to make it sound that I ask God to be my savior now that is it.

My apologies for not being more clear. I was looking at the extreme end of either side to examine the implications, not trying to attribute that position to you. When a question presents itself as an either/or, often the answer is neither, both, or something in between.

happybrew

FireCat

09-17-2005, 07:48 PM

No problem ther Happy brew...It is a big problem I have seen in Christ family. They do get confused when they see the extreem on both sides. On one side you have "you can loose your salvation If you do the most slightest of sin" I remember a dear old lady , who has sence gone to be with the lord, told me that at one time in the 30,s and early 40,s some Churches said it was a sin for a woman to wear a "RED" dress to worship. It implied that she was resembling a Harlot color. and of corse if she didnt repent God would send her to Hell, she lost her salvation. And on the other side I have seen People that suppose to be saved going to the most sleazyest night clubs. And their excuse is "I am saved by grace I can do what I want, God will never send me to Hell" I am saved forever. Now mind you I have been noted to have a wild time myself my wife and I love to be 19 again. But when it come to compromising my Lord in different , so called worldly places of entertainment, The Holy Spirit does put a check on my spirit where I go and what i should or shouldnt do. Now I can grieve the Holy Spirit and go ahead and do those things anyway. But when the Holy Spirit shows me that Christ hung his head in death beaten to death for me, with not just the world on his mind, he had me on his mind also, And with the last words out of his mouth, "I LOVE YOU"...I am on my knee asking for his forgiveness. And with that done I am very aware of what I should or shouldnt do or go, for his sake, and my weaker brother. This is called "SEALED BY THE SPIRIT" a caution by love, and not a God who carries a big stick ready to club you over the head every time you make a small mistake. Many Churches love this approach. It gives them controll over their members. Sorry to ramble here folks but hope this makes sence.

rimrock

09-18-2005, 05:44 PM

In brief if one can lose their salvation, than salvation is in some way dependent on humanity; if it’s in some way up to us certainly there is no security, you’re in, and then you’re out, maybe in again, maybe not?

It’s grace alone that saves AND it’s grace alone that secures. Obedience (the Law) is not to be blended with salvation (the Gospel). When the two are mix humanity again ends up trying to at least in part work its way into heaven.

PapaHog

09-19-2005, 10:38 PM

Paul writes to the believers. For by grace are ye saved and that not of yourself, It is a gift of god, not of works least any man can boast.

John writes that the Lord himself says Who so ever believeth in me hath everlasting life.

These two statemants say it for me. For I believe these witnesses and writers were inspired by God the Holy Spirt.

And to seal the deal my belief is that I am covered by the blood of Christ. That I am saved by the work done on calvery's cross.

If these statements are not true then I have no hope in this lost and dying world.

papa