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rimrock
02-25-2005, 07:58 PM
Forgive the length: If you have every wondered about this or wish to have, “…a reason for the hope that you have…” (1 Peter 3:15) then I will attempt to give you some reason. Christianity is based on REASON not “blind faith”. If you have no desire to understand this hope I can understand for once I felt the same way.

I’ve heard it many times Christians saying, “It’s in the Bible”, “You just got to believe”, “It is a matter of faith” or “The Bible says so” and typically they do this without a single reference from the Bible. The non-Christian world responds, “So What!”, “What’s the big deal?”, “Believe whatever you want”, or “What does it matter in the end anyway?” Actually these are very reasonable responses. If Christians can demonstrate that the Bible is the Word of God than “The Bible says” means something. Unfortunately many skeptics have their minds set in stone and aren’t even open to the truth. This can come from a myriad of reasons, including previous bad experiences with people who claim to be Christian or just blatant refusal to be open to the possibility. We cannot argue someone into the Kingdom only God’s Spirit can change lives.

So, how do we know that the Bible is from God?

Let’s begin with the New Testament which was originally written in the common Greek language between 50 and 100 A.D. Although we don’t have the original writings, there are presently over 5,000 Greek manuscripts in existence today, with as many as 25,000 copies of these manuscripts. The earliest of which are dated back to around 120 A.D. roughly 20 years from the originals. How does this compare with other ancient writings? Consider that there are only seven of Plato’s manuscripts in existence today with a 1,200-year gap separating the earliest copy from the original writing. Similarly, Tacitus the well known Roman historian who also wrote about 100 A.D. there are less than 20 copies of his work with the earliest copy 1000 years from the original, and only some 640 copies of Homer’s Iliad with a 500-year gap between the earliest copy and the original writing. Furthermore, the accounts in the New Testament were recorded directly by eyewitnesses, or by those who were closely associated with them and had direct contact with them.

What about the commonly talked about discrepancies? In some places the copies have “Lord Jesus” while others have “Lord Jesus Christ.” This is not significant because the meaning is clearly obvious. Do you think “discrepancies” like this warrant the claim that the Bible is false because of contradictions? If anyone claims contradictions, let them prove it. It is simply not enough to claim contradiction without the effort to demonstrate their case.

What about the Old Testament? Let’s take a quick look at one of the most remarkable finds of the 20th century: The Dead Sea Scrolls. With the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls at Qumran in 1946, texts were found that were roughly 1,000 years older than any previously known Old Testament writing. And when compared with the texts already in hand they also proved to be virtually identical. What were the differences? They merely consisted of differences of spelling, grammatical construction and style; nothing of the original message had changed. From a pure literary stand point this does not just happen.

The most truly convincing proofs lay in the fulfillment of prophecy that is found in the Bible. Since Jesus is the full revelation of the Old Testament it is not surprising that prophecies concerning Him are the most numerous; many of which Jesus could not have intentional fulfilled. For Example: His ancestry from Abraham (Gen. 12:3; 17:19); His birth in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2); His crucifixion (Isaiah 53:12); the piercing of His hands and feet (Ps. 22:16); the soldiers gambling for His clothes (Ps. 22:18); the piercing of His side and that His bones would not be broken which was not uncommon in crucifixion (Ps. 34:20). There are many more, but if you truly pause and reflect on even these the “odds” of this happening by chance quickly become impossible.

I could continue with more reason, but even this leads to one question. How can all this be true? There is only one answer: It must all come from one amazing source. This source must be powerful enough to preserve these texts without an alternation of their substance, must have a detailed knowledge of the future to predict so many numerous prophecies and have the power to arrange history in order for them ALL to be fulfilled, to use 46 different human writers over a period of 1500 years in three different languages (Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek), and yet have one consistent theme in both the Old and New Testaments – The gift of salvation in Jesus Christ. It has to be from God!

Finally, why does all this matter anyway?

As I have tried to briefly demonstrate if the Bible is from God - Then it really matters what it says. There can only be one Truth. If two people are looking up into a clear sunny sky and one says, “The sky is blue” and the other says, “No, I think it is red” we wouldn’t say to them both, “No, you’re both right because the truth only depends on what each of us thinks it is.”

We all believe in some type of truth and everyone has options on what it is. In the end there can only be one singular truth; not all roads lead to heaven. Jesus reminds us to "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it” (Matt 7:13-14). What is this gate? Jesus again says that, “I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved” (John 10:9). And what is this road or way? Jesus further focuses it down with one of the boldest claims in all of history, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him” (John 14:6-7).

Christianity ultimately is not even a religion in the strictest sense. For the world religions and other belief systems have the same bottom line; trying to please and earn the favor of a divine being or power in our own efforts to gain reward and blessing. Even if it takes a myriad of lifetimes until we get it right. Religion differs only in creed - what their message is; what doctrines or rituals it takes; or by what code of conduct you must live, but it is all about us working towards the divine. Only Christianity is about a divine being coming to us and fixing our broken relationship to Him. He cannot add to or take away from His work which He gives to us freely. In Christianity “it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast” (Eph 2:8-9).

Since we are all trusting in something, since we all believe in a truth. Really spend some time reflecting on what this truth is and make sure it is the right Truth. :angel:

letsfish
02-25-2005, 08:13 PM
Amen!! And thank you Rimrock.

DAB
02-25-2005, 10:17 PM
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
DAB

Fred N
02-25-2005, 11:01 PM
Thanks for sharing this with us! :wave:

fishnwHim
02-25-2005, 11:20 PM
In Christianity “it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast” (Eph 2:8-9).




I really appreciate you pointing out these facts, it is refreshing to many , I would think, to hear a message that doesn't condemn them but offers a GIFT of salvation that we can choose to accept or not accept, we need not do anything else ! I am truly blessed to be able to accept Grace, so many people think they have to do all kinds of things and live by all kinds of rules. I am free indeed !! Thanks Rimrock , always a pleasure to read your posts. :wave: :wave:

Stew
02-26-2005, 12:19 AM
If the bible is not the inspired word of God then the whole thing is mere speculation. Got to accept by faith that it is :shrug:

Talljeeper
02-26-2005, 08:44 AM
Aren't the Gospels particularly awesome? Four guys, four different perspectives, four consistencies....just ruly amazing.
You ought to do some pre Christ researcha n Matthew, Mark, Luke and John....its wonderful to see such different individuals...reborn...WOW!

Armored Angler
02-28-2005, 03:09 PM
RR,
That was a great piece you have written. The bible is a truly remarkable piece of Gods handywork, he has maintained it's consistency through all of man's history so we can see that he is truly its author. Thanks

Len Spesert
02-28-2005, 04:30 PM
AMEN! That's all I can think to add. AMEN!

Musicman
02-28-2005, 08:21 PM
Amen, that was very well put. I thank you! :dance:

yooper
02-28-2005, 10:34 PM
I commend your in depth studies. I ask for a bit of your input on these following questions as I have also studied and read all tmaterials you've shared with us. While I absolutely believe god is revealed in the bible, I don't believe the bible is perfect. Here are my reasons why I think arguing the inerrancy of the bible causes more harm than good.

1). The bible never said it was inerrant. God breathed yes, which people imply it must be perfect then because it says so.

2). If you run with the argument that the bible says it's perfect may I point out the context of which peter made this statement. At the time of his statement scripture only consisted of the old testament. The new testament did not roll around until 250 years later. I can accept at most the old testament then if I keep the context in it's proper place.

3). The new testament writers had no idea there letters would ever end up as holy scriptures. Otherwise why would paul have his own statements, not the lords in some of his letters? Why are we also missing some of paul's letters if this is to be a complete bible?

4) The nicene council was a collection of men who desired to collect up all the scrolls, letters, and writings about God that they could find. They new that time was destroying ancient texts and that people were being confused by false writings of the day. ( Aprocryphal ) The men did their best to collectively gather this information for future generations before things got lost. They created a cannon or list of requirements each writing must pass before it was accepted. These very bright men did a good job and I thank them.

5). The one thing the bible repeats over and over again is that man is imperfect and prone to error. Given that we know men wrote, gathered, interpreted, and published the words in front of us today? How can you make these words equivalent to god himself? This does not follow logic.

6). To sum things up, I believe the bible is equivalent to finding dinosaur bones in a desert. Based on all the evidence we've found, dinosaurs existed but we've never seen them personally. To say dinosaurs never existed would be crazy because fossils tell us to know something existed for sure! The bible is the same way to me. It gives so much revelation of god it's not even funny. God beams out of the bible. But that's where I leave this well enough alone. The bible served it's purpose in revealing to me that god exists. But just like the fossils I am still lacking a whole lot more information before I'll understand everything. Someday I'll see god and he can answer the whole dinosaur riddle at the same time for me. :-)

rimrock
03-01-2005, 11:04 AM
Yooper,

You raise some great questions and points and I will attempt to help illuminate some of these to the best of my limited ability. I say limited to admit that no matter how good of an argument I can muster; God by His choice in the way He has chosen to reveal Himself is improvable by logic – Does this mean that we shouldn’t accept and trust the inerrancy of the Bible? If I or anyone could “prove” the things of God beyond any doubt this would eliminate God’s will for us to have faith and hope. You touched on this very well in your closing statement. Faith, interestingly, is the only word that is defined for us in Scripture, “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.” (Heb 11:1-2). God desires us to “Stop doubting and believe. Then Jesus told him, because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20) – One of my favorite verses and promises in the entire Bible that lead me to faith in Jesus.


The bible never said it was inerrant. If you run with the argument that the bible says it's perfect may I point out the context of which peter made this statement. At the time of his statement scripture only consisted of the old testament. I can accept at most the old testament then if I keep the context in it's proper place. Given that we know men wrote, gathered, interpreted, and published the words in front of us today? How can you make these words equivalent to god himself? This does not follow logic.




“We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.” (2 Peter 1:16).

“Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the Word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.” (Luke 1:1-4).

The Latin term "sola scriptura" (scripture alone) refers to the authority of the Holy Scriptures to serve as the SOLE source for all that is taught in the church (Protestant churches that is). In numerous passages Scripture claims this authority as the inspired Word of God. For example: “All Scripture is Godbreathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Tim. 3:16). God-breathed literally means God-spoken. Likewise, “Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” (2 Peter 1:20-21). It must be understood that acceptance of the Bible as the inerrant Word of God comes not from rational arguments or logic, but is a conviction produced by the Holy Spirit in our lives. “And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.” (1 Thess. 2:13).

Such a conviction comes only by faith, first in the Gospel of Jesus Christ and then faith in the Word of God. While arguments based on ration and evidence may be helpful in removing "stumbling blocks" which keep a person from taking the contents of the Bible seriously, such arguments cannot in themselves bring a person to faith in Christ and His Word. We cannot "prove" to an unbeliever that the Bible is true and inerrant. Only when one believes the Gospel message by God's power can they trust the "bearer" of that message, the Holy Spirit, for “it is impossible for God to lie.” (Heb. 6:18).


The new testament writers had no idea there letters would ever end up as holy scriptures. Otherwise why would paul have his own statements, not the lords in some of his letters?



“Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:15-16). Peter makes equivalent Paul’s writings (later to be known as part of the New Testament) to that of “the other Scriptures” (i.e. Old Testament). They in fact believed what they where writing was no less than Scripture itself inspired by the Holy Spirit.


The bible served it's purpose in revealing to me that god exists. But just like the fossils I am still lacking a whole lot more information before I'll understand everything. Someday I'll see god and he can answer the whole dinosaur riddle at the same time for me. :-)




Absolutely, “Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” (1 Cor. 13:12).

Thank you for all your great questions and comments. I hope I have been of some help to you. I can tell you are a faithful believer in the Lord seeking like all of us to grow “in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.” :angel:

yooper
03-01-2005, 12:30 PM
My friend, you have put your time into study which is appreciated. Though you are well versed you appear humble at the same time. I applaud you for your time in response to me and I salute you as a fellow knight who is unafraid to study. I absolutely believe in God with a 100% of my soul. Even before I picked up the Bible I knew he was there. The Bible just confirmed and answered many of the "gaps" for me, but I will never know how to relay what I've always fealt and known to somebody else. I find it amazing that if "men" are the tool to propogate God's kingdom then were all a bit "deficient". How do we proclaim perfection through imperfect behaviour / personage? I've seen many churches / individuals who struggle through things ( including myself ) and all fall short of knowing for "sure" how were supposed to be a part of God's master plan. There is no one right way to live on this Earth as it isn't spelled out clearly. My mind goes into a "not" when I try to work out the Bible because logic cannot be definitively defined. There is a grey area here and there always will be, but I can love God with all my might and praise him above all things. I am worthless, he is king. I know nothing, he knows everything. I don't trust men, I trust him alone. You get the picture. :-)

For the most part you will find my posts in the Chapel revolve around taking a stand against being brain washed by somebody else. I ask that people pick up the word for themselves, study it's contents, and see what revelation you will find for yourself. The Bible in it's summation cannot be put into a tiny box as presented to you by some organizations, churches, or people. Don't let others be your stumbling block and prevent you from discovering things for yourself. I've sought out many different people / resources when I was first learning the Bible and through it all I've dumped the external resource and stay with the Bible alone. As I've heard Vernon McGee say in of his Sermons over the Radio: "There is only one person on the planet I agree with 100% when it comes to interpreting scripture.. That one person is myself." Vernon was highlighting one of the core realities to the Christian Faith. None of us will be 100% identical in our understanding, but we'll have the same general directions. :-)

When I look towards institutions that specialize in teaching pastures I can't help but cringe. What if the institutional thinking is "off" by a tad bit? Yet it's being propogated to the masses? Where is God's direction when your being led by institutional thinking?

I absolutely would have loved to meet Martin Luther. I believe he was a man who stood up to the institutions of the day and cried "foul"!!! I believe he promoted self discovery and question everything. How awesome!!!

The funny thing to me is that a group of people created the Lutheran faith based on Martin Luther after he was dead. The "new" church was significantly different in terms of the 95 points on Luthers protest, but then everything else stayed the same. I don't think Martin meant for things to "stop" right there and be Locked in again. I believe he would have wanted people to always question things and change it if conviction reveals a new truth. No offense but the protestant churches for the most part have fallen right back into locked structures.... I can't accept this.... :-)

rimrock
03-01-2005, 02:38 PM
Yooper,

First of all, thank you for the many kind words. I have no doubt of your love for Jesus and we share many of the same convictions. It is always a great encouragement to know of someone who pours themselves into the Word including the evidences and substance of Scripture and the great reformers of the past. I admire people as yourself who love God 100% and commit yourself to Him, may God richly bless you my friend.

You made so many good points in your late post that I can’t help but affirm:


But I can love God with all my might and praise him above all things. I am worthless, he is king.

I ask that people pick up the word for themselves, study it's contents, and see what revelation you will find for yourself.

Don't let others be your stumbling block and prevent you from discovering things for yourself.

"There is only one person on the planet I agree with 100% when it comes to interpreting scripture.. That one person is myself." Vernon was highlighting one of the core realities to the Christian Faith. None of us will be 100% identical in our understanding, but we'll have the same general directions.

I absolutely would have loved to meet Martin Luther. I believe he was a man who stood up to the institutions of the day and cried "foul"!!!



What I truly appreciate about you in these is your understanding of personally seeking Jesus. Yes, we absolutely need the Body of Christ – His church to walk and grow in maturity to become more like Christ, but this is done primarily through consistent study, prayer and worship of the Lord in our personal time. This is so critical and it greatly please Him for any loving Father desires to spend time with his children.


I will never know how to relay what I've always fealt and known to somebody else. I find it amazing that if "men" are the tool to propogate God's kingdom then were all a bit "deficient". How do we proclaim perfection through imperfect behaviour / personage?



The best way I can answer this is with a humorous story I once read:

After Jesus’ ascension back into heaven after His great and glorious victory so painfully won at the Cross, the hosts and angels in heaven where greatly rejoicing with the Lord. They asked Him, “Lord, now that you have redeemed your creation; that you have paid the price for all of humanity’s sins; that eternal life is freely given to those who place their trust in you – What’s Next?!

Jesus replied, “I am going to use humanity to spread the news of my Gospel of Salvation.”

The angels looked at one another puzzling trying to understand their Lord’s answer. Then after a moment they asked, “What’s plan B?”

Sometimes I too wonder of this great gift and responsibility that Jesus has given us to share. It is just His will to work in this way after all His is God – and there is no Plan B. :angel:

feisty's wife
03-01-2005, 04:41 PM
Some of the Bible may be the word of Gawd, what part's, I do not know, nor do I ever desire to argue about it, however, there are many 'Word's of Gawd'I do beleive that Gawd has spoken many time's to many people, in many way's, alway's in a manner they could understand, in the context of their own culture.Just out of curiosity, do Christian's EVER read anything that is suggested, that MIGHT contradict their own 'beleif's, or mindset? I have suggested some research , some sources, that I have utilyzed myself, and have never heard from those I suggested it too, whether they read these or not, and can only surmise that they did not. Do you folk's, who so heartily agree with Rimrock, ever consider the experiances of those who have had NDE experiances, and ADC's{After Death Communication's}, or do folk's simply dismiss these as being 'Of the Devil', that ole scallawag will trick you every time, dontchaknow.I know that years ago, if ANYTHING was perceived as 'contradicting Scripture', it was tossed, w/o any kind of thought-fulll consideration. <font color="blue"> </font> :flowered:

Talljeeper
03-01-2005, 06:40 PM
Here ya go fiesty;
"Test everything. Hold on to the good" (1 Thess. 5:21). Christians must be ready to give a reason for the hope they have within them, and to do so with "gentleness and respect" (1 Pet. 3:16). All believers are called on to defend "the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints" (Jude 3)