Agnostic?

[rimrock]

I have noticed there are some here that hold this belief which is fine, but would you explain to me why or by what means you came to this belief? This would be helpful to me. My purpose is understanding and to gain common ground. Please feel free to respond in anyway you wish even a PM is fine. Not sure if I will get any responses to this post, but it is my hope to begin a discussion that will open eyes and hearts.

It is best to define terms as to not cause undue confusion, so my understanding of an Agnostic is one who is not committed to believing in either the existence of or the nonexistence of God or a god, but committed to the physical realities or spiritual dimensions of the world. Rather broad and general I know, but it is a start. :angel:

[reelbigfish72]

Good question. I guess I could be considered agnostic. I never went to church as a kid, except to a few church functions with friends. I'm sure there's an "energy" or spirituality that connects all things, I'm just not sure it's what a Christian (or Muslim, Jew, etc.) would call God. I respect religion and religious people, but it's really not for me. My biggest problem is every religion says they're the one true relgion, their God is the one true God. I think I can live a good life, respect other people and be a good human without reading a book or going to a building every Sunday to be taught how to do it.
I don't intend any offense to those who do these things, I realize it's an over simplification of religion.

[Fred N]

Reelbigfish72, thanks for sharing your personal thoughts, I'm pretty much in the same position as you. Similar upbringing without religion. I would like to believe Christianity doctrine and have spent some time in recent years in Bible study. But, as far as knowing this is the correct path - I still do not know. My belief is all religions are based on faith (knowledge of the unknown) and that can open up a lot animosity between the different religions. It also allows the clergy (church) a great amount of power to make decisions for individuals. If it represented properly it is a good thing, but more often than not I have seen religion misused. I believe this subject is so broad it cannot truly be covered by Bulletin Board posts though hopefully it will be attempted.

That said, I am living the life as a christian (being sincere, honest, this list is great ...) as best I can though, I cannot honestly say I am a true believer of Jesus Christ which puts me into the classification of being agnostic. If I am wrong, let God/Jesus show me the way, I am still listening.

Rimrock, thanks for bringing this subject up, I am also curious to hear the thoughts of others on this as well. Fred :applause:

[rimrock]

Reelbigfish72 & Fred N,

Thanks so much for your thought provoking replies. I was excited to read your posts and truly appreciate your personal thoughts. I too didn’t grow up in the church, but came to trust in Jesus Christ as an adult in fact it wasn’t until I was 28 before I even became aware of God’s work in my life.

You both touched on a very key understanding that being; what is the right path? All religions claim their god or belief is the 100% correct and true one. You are wise in discerning to be fair to the different religions and their positions that we can’t all be right. The question becomes who is right or how can we know? Unfortunately may Christians with good intentions respond by saying, “It is a matter of faith.” What they are actually saying is I don’t really know. But God never asks us to believe blindly and it really isn’t a faith in the unknowable, but what can be shown to be true. For in scripture it says to the Christian, “Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect” (1 Peter 3). Did you catch that? It says to give a REASON. This is what first separates Christianity from the other religions; it truly is based on faith in evidence. Being fair to the other religions of the world, they cannot take such a bold stance. Christianity says go ahead and questions for it is evidential, most other religions say that you cannot do that for they claim it is an egregious sin to do so. The Bible can be demonstrated that it is divine in origin, and if one can show that then when a Christian says it is in the Bible then that actually means something.

Since being on this board I have encountered this question many times, for it is a GREAT question. If you wish I could post a perspective I have written before in my ministry that helps demonstrate this truth. It is rather long so I have been hesitant to post it because I desire to be respectfully of people’s time. It is hard to make it too short in order to give enough illumination to this very important matter that you both have wisely touched on, but if you desire I would be happy to share this with you. :angel:

[Fred N]

My thought, rimrock, this is the place to share. I appreciate and am open to all thoughts. Acceptance or denial is out of your control, but all knowledge is always valuable. I would post your perspectives, it surely will envoke more thoughts and possible posts. :idea:

[Talljeeper]

Please linger on these thoughts.....
An atheist, like a Christian, holds that we can know whether or not there is a God. The Christian holds that we can know there is a God; the atheist, that we can know there is not. The Agnostic suspends judgment, saying that there are not sufficient grounds either for affirmation or for denial. At the same time, an Agnostic may hold that the existence of God, though not impossible, is very improbable; he may even hold it so improbable that it is not worth considering in practice. In that case, he is not far removed from atheism

Agnosticism is a concept, not a religion. It is a belief related to the existence or non-existence of God.
ag·nos·tic n.

One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

If you look at the definition described in Websters it saddens me to note the following "it is impossible to know whether there is a God.".

What marks Christianity so profoundly different from other religions and beliefs is Jesus Christ. He did exactly what he said he would do. He stated the reason for his being and and after his witnessed ascension into heaven he left no shadow of a doubt concerning what lies ahead. This is the awesome story in which Christianity bases its beliefs. And what an awesome series of events it is.

I have done massive amounts of research to qualm my questions regarding the authenticity of scripture, events, and the evolution of modern religions and it has for me led me to one conclusion.

No matter how diluted or distorted the story may have become through the ages, there exists a fundamental, basic, undeniable truth.

The truth is that Jesus and prophesies related to him were factually based, witnessed by many, well documented, and relatively consistent. It is the basis of why I believe in Jesus Christ and accepted him as my personal Lord and Saviour. He is my friend, my guide, my keeper.

I think the biggest barrier for agnostics and atheists is the simplicity of the message.

There is something that happens in your soul, your spirit, that is revealing, supernatural, when you step out in faith and believe. It is a spark that separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom. But it is a deliberate act of choice.

Life is more than conscieous decisions, verfiable equations or formulas, or a chaotic coincidental series of events.

As in nature there is an order to life. A part of that order is spiritual.

Contemplate if you will human emotion. Consider the complexity of life itself. I cannot fathom how one can disregard a magnificent Creator. But thats another story.

I would submit to you to open your heart, your mind and seek God. I pray God will enrichen your life as you get to know him and reveal himself to you. It is a spectacular learning relationship and the rewards are boundless.

Respectfully
Paul

[Jsail]

I can’t put into words how impressed I am by the way this thread is going.
I appreciate the fact that the conversation can happen without abuse of any sort.

My two cents worth:
As far as I know Christianity is the only religion that is faith based.
Ones own works can not get them into heaven.
One who is sinless, is the only one who can offer the sacrifice that opens the doors.
Other religions have a list of things that a person can or must do to
promote themselves to a higher position.
In Christianity the promotion is a gift, and that gift was paid for on the Cross.

Eph. 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from
yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

That is so different from other religions and practices.

If digesting this is difficult, think of this way:

There was a man that was a switchman for the railroad.
His job was to operate the drawbridge that crossed mighty river.
One morning he took his young son to work with him.
When they arrived he told his son it would be ok to play, but to stay off off the draw bridge.
As the day proceeded the son played and the switchman went about his duties.
They ate lunch together and the father showed the son how everything worked.
Shortly after lunch the 12:45 commuter was due.
The switchman was readying to lower the draw bridge for the train to pass.
He called out to his son to come and watch.
There was no answer. He went outside to look, called again…… no son.
Time was running short. The commuter would be here soon.
He looked down to the bridge and caught a glimpse of the boy.
The boy was playing on the big gears of the drawbridge.
Just then he heard the whistle from the commuter.
He yelled for the boy, but he was to far away.
The switchman thought of the passengers on the train, hundreds of them.
He thought of his only son, if he lowers the bridge his son will be crushed.
If he doesn't lower the bridge hundreds will die when the train plunges into the river.

What would you do?

Don't confuse your relationship with the passengers on the train with the your relationship with switchman.
The switchman sacrificed his son so the passengers could live.
Did the passengers even notice?
Some did, and they meet frequently to sing about it.

[rimrock]

Acceptance or denial is out of your control, but all knowledge is always valuable.



Fred N, you again demonstrate great wisdom with this quote from your post. You are right it is not up to me; in fact, it is never about what any person can do or say when it comes to changing lives.

I believe it best to post the perspective I have written on the Bible under a different thread for this one is meant to focus on sharing people's basis for being Agnostic. Also I have spent some time shortening the narrative from the original to try and be considerate of people's time, but without reducing the heart and substance of the message. Granted it is still long, but this is a foundational question. It is my hope to simply open hearts and encourage those seeking truth. Your time and thoughts are appreciated. :angel:

[dlgobeavs]

I can’t put into words how impressed I am by the way this thread is going.
I appreciate the fact that the conversation can happen without abuse of any sort.




Just my two cents... but the reason this thread is going so well, is because it is a bunch of people patting themselves on the back for believing the same thing.

If anyone posted an opposite opinion and actually voiced an opposition to your belief set...this post would be shut down in a heart beat with a message along the lines of "Please don't use this thread for arguements".

I guess my point is, that Ifish is not a forum that allows for free thinking if it goes against the views of the moderators.

That being said, I love Ifish for what it is... a GREAT place to learn about fishing/regulations/safety on the ocean/tips and tricks...etc..etc. But, Ifish is not a forum for free exchange of ideas. Your congratulations on the civility of this thread should be somewhat tempered though by these "rules of engagement".

Because I do appreciate what Ifish is, and out of a desire to play by these rules, and in deference to the fact that I am posting in the "Anglers Chapel", I am happy to toe the line.

I thought you might be interested in an Agnostic's opinion.

[fishnwHim]

I can’t put into words how impressed I am by the way this thread is going.
I appreciate the fact that the conversation can happen without abuse of any sort.




Just my two cents... but the reason this thread is going so well, is because it is a bunch of people patting themselves on the back for believing the same thing.




I think you might be surprised how well Rimrock handles differing opinions, he is very non-combatant and diplomatic and enjoys a stimulating discussion. I don't think he is a person who likes to argue. I do agree that more than likely someone else might. I think that rimrock has a true desire for people to understand who God is , and why God loves us. I have really enjoyed his posts, because he doesn't try to make anyone feel bad. Just the facts. :applause: :applause:

[dlgobeavs]

I think you might be surprised how well Rimrock handles differing opinions, he is very non-combatant and diplomatic and enjoys a stimulating discussion. I don't think he is a person who likes to argue. I do agree that more than likely someone else might. I think that rimrock has a true desire for people to understand who God is , and why God loves us. I have really enjoyed his posts, because he doesn't try to make anyone feel bad. Just the facts. :applause: :applause:

[/quote]

My comment certainly wasn't meant to target anyone in particular...just a perspective/observation on the perceived "civility" of this thread.

[fishnwHim]

My comment certainly wasn't meant to target anyone in particular...just a perspective/observation on the perceived "civility" of this thread.



No, I know you didn't. I did because he started the thread and seems to handle things in a very level headed way. I tend to get upset and have to really hold back sometimes. One particular thread really had me going and I wanted to post real bad , but held back. He jumped in and handled it wonderfully, I was impressed. I spend the majority of my time on ifish in the anglers chapel and really enjoy it. :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave:

[Pete]

I am really enjoying this thread. I was raised by a PhD nuclear physicist and an economist, both had rejected the concept of God. That clearly influenced my early thinking. But from a young age I found myself drawn to spirituality and explored widely; a Presbyterian youth group, a Methodist congregation, an Indian guru. I didn't find anything that really resonated with my thoughts and I focused my spiritual thoughts on the mysteries that surrounded me in nature, where I found peace but perhaps without much understanding.

My beliefs changed significantly when a dear friend asked me if I was a Christian. The follow up question was "How can you not believe in God?" I wrestled with that one for quite a while. But what I came to understand is that there is a gulf between "empiracle logic" and "faith". On the one hand is a system of "what we can prove beyond any doubt" - the scientific background I was raised in. On the other hand is "how do you explain what you cannot prove with science?". That is the basis for faith. We know we are alive and we share a world of endlessly amazing diversity. These are things we know to be true, but may not be able to explain except through our faith in their truth.

I can't say I have walked far on my path. But I can say I no longer call myself "agnostic". There is truth in belief and it took a conscious decision to accept as true that which I already knew was true, though it couldn't be proved empiracally. There is comfort in this faith which feels good to accept. I will be eternally grateful for the question my friend challenged me with, for it truly changed my life in ways I never could have imagined. And as I walk this new path, I find that I don't have worry that I haven't walked far enough or that I don't understand well enough. I know how I feel and I have faith that accepting into my life a God whose proof surrounds me is good ... and that's a truth I can't deny.

[rimrock]

fishnwHim,

Wow, truly kind and encouraging words I’m very humbled by your kindness. You show true Christlike qualities, may the Lord bless you for your encouragement. I appreciate all the wisdom you share here on this board and your heart for Jesus.

A lesson I learned long ago in ministry is not to return ill words against anyone who speaks spitefully of God or myself for my trust in Jesus. Mainly because God is well…God, and He doesn’t need me to defend Him. Secondly, I would be in the same position as they if God hadn’t given me His unmerited grace and forgiveness. I genuinely feel great sadness when I read or heard people speaking so poorly of the only One who will every love them perfectly, never forsaking them and truly accepting them for who they are for after all they are His creation.

I continue to pray for those here who may be searching for this Truth to open their minds and hearts even just one more time for a moment to know that God has “determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us” (Acts 17:26-27). :angel:

[salmonbird]

It has been my experience that the person seeking will never know unless they pray. I have been surprised quite a few times by answers to my prayers. So it is easy for me to know that HE lives. I don't need to analyze anything more.

[yooper]

Isn't Agnostic thought sort of like Apathy? To study either side of whether there is a God or not would require time, resources, and deep questioning. It sure sounds a whole lot simpler to stand on the sidelines and let everyone else struggle with the question of "Does God exist or not?". By being "Sweden" or "Swiss" I always stayed out of arguments when I was a kid. Likewise, if I stated "Agnostic" I would also remove myself from controversies in religion.

I can't hardly blame someone for using Agnostic beliefs as a safety net against the constant attack we all receive for having a belief or unbelief in God. It's tough being in the trenches of controversy.

I remember one time in college I stood by and watched my friends get the "crud" beat out of them because of a stupid "bar" comment. We walked out of the bar, I was the only sober person there. We were followed out by 8 guys to our group of 5 guys. I told my friends to leave it alone and get in the car. They "chose" to consummate the fight instead. I stood off to the side and let them go at it. In the end, my friends are bleeding in the car on the way home and their all looking at me wondering why I didn't jump in to fight with them as well? I pulled the apathy card on them all by stating "it wasn't my fight". Years later I now sit back and regret not jumping into the fight. Not because it would have made me feel better, but it would have made them feel better to see me standing side by side with them. I would have taken a few broken bones or scars for them anyday. Through thick and thin....

I for one want you right in the trenches with us, trying to figure out if there is a God or not..... You might get punched once in a while, but at least your in the middle of this struggle with me... :-)

[dlgobeavs]

Isn't Agnostic thought sort of like Apathy?



Agnosticism isn't apathy. Agnostic's believe that neither Atheists nor "Christians" are correct. Both groups have an equally unwavering belief that they are right. Neither can prove their side completely, but both profess to have the absolutely correct answer.

I find it equally offensive that either group believes without a doubt that they have the answer. To use your analogy: It isn't that I am not willing to get in the fight, it is a bit like fighting the kid next door because he said his Dad is "cooler" than your Dad. The arguement is not one that can be won.

Agnosticism doesn't make me apathetic. Rather, it makes me humble... I don't know the answer.

One more added thing:.... sitting on the sidelines is hardly what I am doing by posting in the "anglers chapel".

[fishnwHim]

If a person waits for proof positive, he loses, if he argues he loses, it is only by Faith that he will be saved and Faith is a choice that requires no proof. :wave: :wave: :wave:

[Talljeeper]

yooper, you may be thinnking of apostasy. Apostasy can be an active, collective rebellion or a "falling away.

[dlgobeavs]

If a person waits for proof positive, he loses, if he argues he loses, it is only by Faith that he will be saved and Faith is a choice that requires no proof. :wave: :wave: :wave:



Just so I am clear. The only way to win is to believe in something with no proof? I'm sure I am alone in this view (on this board anyways...), but fatalism like that is exactly what has gotten man in trouble thoughout the ages. Blind faith leads to unchecked power ... and ultimately corruption. For the same reason our government has checks and balances, it is necessary for us to question. To "choose" faith as your mechanism for peace of mind, without questioning, sets yourself up for a blind utopia that although blissful I am sure, gets you no closer to the truth.

[fishnwHim]

I think that we have to take a lot of things on faith in this life , because we don't have all the answers. We don't know the outcomes of most events in our lives. When we go to a civil war game we don't know who is going to win, we just go with hopeful anticipation that our team will prevail. When I got married 32 years ago , most people told me based on what they saw we wouldn't make it , but we went forward with hopeful anticipation that we would. When I go fishing , I don't ever know for sure I will catch a fish, but I go with hopeful anticipation that I will. For me life is about hope and Faith. I do the best I can, make the best choices I can and have Faith that it will all work out. I know what my life was like before I became a believer and I wouldn't go back. I also do appreciate your posts , they cause me to ponder and the end result is that my Faith gets stronger. :wave: :wave:

[Fred N]

dlgobeavs, I'm with you in this discussion. Christians and atheists alike may say agnostics are walking the fence with not making a decision, but that is not the case as we have chosen to question before committing. I do wish to believe Jesus will reveal himself to me in a way I will know for certain of his existence and I continue to wait in great anticipation, and I am guessing this is my faith. But, to say I am sure of his existence that is not in me to be so bold. I continue to keep an open mind as I do believe this is the only way to be.

fishnwHim, as far as catching a fish to believe there is faith involved in catching a fish. Several have used this analogy, but this is not a matter of faith but more a matter of skill in outwitting the fish and understanding their behaviors.

Patience is the key in my case and I welcome Jesus to be my lord and saviour! :cheers: :angel:

[fishonksm]

For those who profess to be agnostic you guys should spend some time studying the book of John. Look closely at ch.20 look at Thomas reaction to when Jesus appears after his resurrection to the disciples in v25. Did you know that Thomas was one of the twelve that followed Jesus and watched the works Jesus did to others.
I love Jesus response to Thomas in v29 "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Now consider the blind man in Ch9. (I use this as my signature.)This man was blind from birth. Not having seen Jesus, not having touched Jesus, only hearing of Jesus. Yet it was Jesus who reached out to the blind man, gave him sight to see the truth. The truth that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.
Blindness comes in many forms in a person’s life. Sin can make you blind so you cannot see the truth. Or the truth will blind you so you cannot see the sin.
Have some faith, let Jesus spit in your eyes or let him put mud in your face and then see if the blindness goes away and sets you free.

[dlgobeavs]

For those who profess to be agnostic you guys should spend some time studying the book of John. Look closely at ch.20 look at Thomas reaction to when Jesus appears after his resurrection to the disciples in v25. Did you know that Thomas was one of the twelve that followed Jesus and watched the works Jesus did to others.
I love Jesus response to Thomas in v29 "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Now consider the blind man in Ch9. (I use this as my signature.)This man was blind from birth. Not having seen Jesus, not having touched Jesus, only hearing of Jesus. Yet it was Jesus who reached out to the blind man, gave him sight to see the truth. The truth that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.
Blindness comes in many forms in a person’s life. Sin can make you blind so you cannot see the truth. Or the truth will blind you so you cannot see the sin.
Have some faith, let Jesus spit in your eyes or let him put mud in your face and then see if the blindness goes away and sets you free.



I'm not sure why there is such a disconnect on this point? But, you can NOT support your beliefs set with propaganda from your own organization. Quoting the bible as "proof" is only acceptable to someone who also believes. Using scriptures from YOUR bible to back up your claims is so self serving (and honestly a bit insulting). What makes you believe that I would take it as proof any more than you are likely to take the word of a scientist/atheist? If I quoted Carl Sagan would your response be "well... if Carl Sagan wrote it, it must be true"? Of course not..

To influence someone who is Agnostic, the best you can hope for is to make a statement along the lines of "This is what I believe"... Then, be the type of person others look up to and hope that by living this example they gravitate to your way of thinking based on respect for you individually, not quotations from your bible.

[fishnwHim]

Quote "To influence someone who is Agnostic, the best you can hope for is to make a statement along the lines of "This is what I believe"... Then, be the type of person others look up to and hope that by living this example they gravitate to your way of thinking based on respect for you individually, not quotations from your bible."

I believe this is a valid point, it is important to have a relationship in place, so that one can model a lifestyle, well
said !

Fred, I hope Jesus does show Himself to you as you hope. But most of the time it requires a step of faith, and that is what I was trying to speak to earlier. If you truly want Him to be your Lord and Savior , then ask Him to be and see what happens. Thanks for your input :wave:

[fishonksm]

dlgobeavs please DO NOT look to me for any example that you maybe looking for to find your answeres to lifes questions. Yes i should be like jesus in my walk and i try very hard to be that example, but let me say "I AM A SINNER". First and formost i am a sinner. Do not look up to me I will only let you down.
In my posts i make clame to being a christian and what the lord has done for me, where he has taken me from and hopefully where he will lead me and what my goals are. I was once part of the unbelieving world, but one day i listened with an open mind and heart to what some one was saying about my lord and ended up giving my sinful life over to him and haven't looked back.
I would suggest that your focus should be on the life and works of Jesus Christ and no other person. It is their that you will find the perfect example of what a person should be.
IMHO it is the sciences that explain away any exsistance of God, but truly it is God who does the explaining of the sciences. To read the bible one could know how the universe stays together. What makes the sun to rise and set. Why the moon chases the sun. I have read some things of Sagen and of Darwin, but they some how started off ok, but missed the mark in their conclusions according to the bible.
I have tried not to make any insulting comments to any one person on the board you included. I am not into arguing a point. i will however quote from the true word of the living and loving God that i serve. My statements can be accepted or rejected its the readers choice.

[Fred N]

Something I thought I would share.

Top 20 thoughts Measuring Spirituality
How to recognize if you have the Spirit of the Lord or another spirit.

When You have The Spirit

-You feel Happy and Calm
-You feel full of light
-Your mind is clear
-Your bosom burns with Love for the Lord and for others.
-You feel generous.
-No one can offend you.
-You are very forgiving and kind
-You feel confident in what you do.
-You don't mind anyone seeing what you are doing.
-You feel outgoing and anxious to be with others (especially family members)
-You are glad when others succeed.
-You want to make others happy, even those opposed to you.
-You bring out the best and say the best about others.
-You gladly and willingly perform Church work.
-You feel like praying and reading the scriptures.
-You wish you could keep all the Lord's commandments.
-You feel a desire to help others-- usually in a way no one else will know about.
-You speak and think good about them.
-You feel sorrow when others have problems and sincerely desire to help them.
-You realize that your thoughts and your actions are open to God.

When You Do Not Have The Spirit: Or When Satan is Prompting You

-You feel unhappy, depressed, confused, and frustrated.
-You feel heavy and full of darkness.
-Your mind is muddled
-You feel empty, hollow, and cold inside.
-You feel selfish, possessive and self-centered.
-Everything anyone does bothers you.
-You are always on the defensive.
-You are easily discouraged.
-You become secretive and evasive.
-You want to be alone and you avoid others (especially family members).
-You are envious of what others do and what others have.
-You want to get even and show others up.
-You are critical of others, especially of family members and those of authority.
-You feel hesitant, unworthy, and unwilling to perform church ordinances.
-You don't want to pray or read the scriptures.
-You find the commandments of God and rules of the family too restricting, or senseless.
-You want to make sure that all the help you give to others is duly noted by them and the world.
-You look for and find evil in others and broadcast it.
-You question others' motives and secretly delight in their problems. Then you say, "I'm glad I'm not that way."
-You feel that what you do and think is only your business and no one else knows or cares.

[dlgobeavs]

Top 20 thoughts Measuring Spirituality
How to recognize if you have the Spirit of the Lord or another spirit.



I would like to suggest we take out any of the "god" laced portion of the positive list, and retitle it "Top reasons to know that you have the inner strength to live a good happy life without relying on the crutch of religion".

I have all of that... In SPADES...

Dave
Agnostic

[yooper]

Thanks to everyone who has been posting here. I for one have learned a lot more about Agnostics and that is wonderful. I apologize if I somehow tried to lump it all under "Apathy". Through those who were open to share their beliefs I was able to see their perspectives. Please confirm if I've got a better understanding: Agnostics are sort of like a jury panel presiding over the case of "Does God exist or not?". They weigh both sides of the argument in the "hope" that one way or another the "case" will bear enough evidences for the jury to make a final "conclusion".

This may surprise you but I find your approach commendable. I believe people should put things to the test first before blindly following. I think it's also a great message for those of us practicing any faith. It says we are being watched, we are being weighed, we are the front and center for other people's observations. So we all need to recognize that's those in the jury have heard and seen so many "witnesses" before and after you so what makes "you" so different? I don't think any one of us on Earth can simply win the case of "God on Trial" for the jury. We have to allow that this is the most difficult task in the world to sit in that Jury box. It's got to be stressful! The best we can do is be a friend and recognize the jury may be in court a while. Give em a break, provide them some refreshments, and hope that someday they find answers to a very difficult process for them. :-)

I loved the communications shared in this thread! Thanks All!!

[rimrock]

dlgobeavs and others,

This has been helpful to me in expanding my understanding of Agnosticism. This like many discussions shows there is typically no one way of looking at a subject. Agnostic beliefs are wide ranging and in many ways so is Christianity, expect that orthodox evangelical Christianity has a core set of beliefs we all share and many a martyr has died as a result of these core beliefs (This could be another thread and a good one – What are the core essential beliefs of Christianity?).

dlgobeavs, I sure have enjoyed my time working thru this tread with you and everyone else for that matter. To pick up on a similar thought that yooper began, a court room, Christianity and God can never be proved beyond any doubt. If this is what you and other Agnostics and even Atheists are waiting for I’m afraid your wait will be in vain. I like the court room idea because we know that even in a worldly human sense that cases rarely if ever are proved beyond ANY doubt but are proved beyond any REASONABLE doubt. There is quite a difference really when you think about it. Why do we hold God to a standard that we don’t use with the other truths we readily accept and believe to be true in our lives? I think this is where fishnwHim was going. There is an element of faith to bridge the “missing pieces”. This is certainly not blind faith but faith in what is reasonable to be true (I’m not saying that you can use reason to believe in Jesus, because faith is a gift from Him).

To respect your wishes in not using the Bible as “propaganda” to support my discussion, which is fair, I won’t for God has placed His fingerprints on us and creation. The Bible is simply a further revelation in what is already evident. I presently know of two profound fingerprints, but will only address one in this thread which I hope you will explore with me. First, I wish to tie into how you responded to Fred N regarding strength of a moral consciousness to live a good life. I believe you do live a good life, but I’m just wondering how this standard of what is good came to be for you? After all, if we each just make it up for ourselves, this good standard, then whatever I say to be good is just as good as yours and anyone’s. Right, that’s fair because I know neither one of us would want to be that arrogant. We shouldn’t impose either one of our self-standards on anyone.

So regarding what is defined as “good” we could pick just about anything. I don’t wish to write an offensive statement so just imagine, what for you would be one of the worst things that could happen in your life, to your spouse, your child or a friend - for me one would be an assault on my wife or children. Now if we all define morality or what is good differently than I could simply say what you think is a bad and evil thing is just fine. Why is your standard better than mine or mine better than yours? Does a standard of morality come by chance, evolution, or by a creator that designs it into His creation? Really what do you think?

Since morality is a conscious understanding it must come from a conscious source. This source must instill it into or program it into us. Humanity as compared to all of creation are the only ones with this highest sense of morality – History has shown that it is not always lived up to but there is no denying that it is there. Why else would we agree for example what Hitler did in WWII was evil? There is a basic knowledge of what is right and wrong that goes across generations, cultures and various world religions. Now I believe it comes from God and is one of His fingerprints in the world, so if you believe it also comes from a divine source or power the next big question is, who is this divine power? There can only be one after all not all the world religions can be right, so I think God asks the biggest of all questions, “Who do you say that I am?”

This answer only determines your eternity, so I would think it is pretty important. :angel:

[reelbigfish72]

There can only be one after all not all the world religions can be right


Or maybe they can be....is it possible that the same God is the source for all religions? Perhaps he was wise enough to know there would be many cultures on earth and some might be more accepting of a slightly different faith?
Like I said in my first post: I'm not sure if I should be considered agnostic, I just have lots of questions and honestly I'm probably never going to commit to any organized religion.
Maybe God is the source of our "morality" although I'm not sure there's a "basic knowledge of what's right and wrong that has cut across all generations, cultures and world religions". If so it is VERY basic and very relative to the culture, generation and religion as well as the particular view of the religion (Muslim extemists for example interpret parts of thr Koran as saying it's expected that they kill "infidels" in order to be good Muslims and I think it's fair to say most Muslims don't believe that)
There are so many versions of God, so many different religions and so many different interpretations of those religions, I think I'll just go ahead and be the best person I can, concentrate on my own spirituality my own way and leave religion to those who feel they need it. I totally respect the views of those who have posted here; do whatever you need to do to feel comfortable with your spirituality and above all: Be good humans!

[yooper]

I think of the situation where God is on trial. In most trials both sides of the defense and prosecution try and show the jury credible witnesses and facts. If one side of the council can be damaged by a particular person they will try to obscure and discredit them in front of the jury. Any argument for and against something is surrounded by reason. It's either a reasonable argument or it's not. In most cases the verdicts are decided from a collection of all statements and not just one. As a collective whole the answers will be revealed, even if a percentage of the facts are obscured. Rimrock highlights that a good many people will only make a decision if they see a sure "sign" from God which reveals absolute truth. I wish God would take the stand for himself and set us all straight, but we'll probably never be that lucky. This brings up a very good question now. If we can't even see God in the court room how do we describe him to the Jury? This is where all the religions in the world get to present their description of God. Each religion spells out God with very different charecteristics. My challenge to anyone is to collect that list and see if you can determine which one makes sense to you. Logic can find God if you are willing to seek the answers. Sure, there's going to be some obscurities with your study, but it is my sincere hope that collectively your going to see a reasonable answer. Once you have that you can close this case and move on with life. :-)

[rimrock]

is it possible that the same God is the source for all religions?



A very common question I have heard many times – all questions are good questions. I’ll in one sense agree with your statement. That is, since God has placed His fingerprints on and within His creation humanity knows there must be something more than just this world. Our conscious tells us, the complexities of the “simplest” life forms, the remarkable meticulous details of all things in creation, these and others all point to a divine source. Really believing against the notion of there not being a divine source at all and rather all this happening by mere random chance takes more “faith” than a belief in a “god”, because your believing in something that all reasonable evidence mandates against.

So since there must be a divine source or “god”, what could it be or who is this “god”? Another reasonable question. Now why I say all the world religions can’t be right is for example in Christianity Jesus makes bold claims that He is in fact this God. Judaism denies that Jesus was the Messiah and refutes His claims as being God. Judaism believes that He was a good teacher or prophet but not God (I always thought this was rather strange because if I met a teacher that thought he was God – I certainly wouldn’t think of him as a good teacher; possibly insane but certainty not a good teacher). Islam also calls belief in Jesus as God the Sin of Shirk (?-spelling) and historically have denied that He died by Roman crucifixion - Islam’s general belief is Allah is god and Muhammad is his prophet. Christianity certainly wouldn’t call Muhammad a prophet and Allah as god as defined by the Koran. Buddhists and Hindus believe that there are many gods, but Christianity, Judaism and Islam believe in only one. Confused yet?

The point I’m making is that it is all too common and rather disingenuous to simply fall back on a much stated cliché of, “We all believe in the same god” because that is just simply not true. And many go to the other extreme that, “There may be a god, but we can never really know who it is because all beliefs are acceptable.” The reality is that God honors our response to His grace and promises to those who really search for Him with all their heart and will, He will be found. There are just two “fair” positions: Either, only one religion or belief system is right or they are all wrong. Either one of these positions would at least be a start, because to deny the existence of “god” is like burying one’s head in the sand and simply refusing the truth.

Therefore, this again leads back to a question that I will continue to pose for everyone to wrestle with. That being since there is a “god” – make sure you know who God truly is and what He has to say. Defining our own spiritual path is mere blind faith, how do we know in ourselves what the right path is – are we so wise? After all God is well, again God and we are not – simply being a “good” person in reality may not be enough. :angel:

[id. painter]

"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior sprit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to percieve with our frail and feeble minds.
The deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasionong power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God. "
The universe and Einstine.
This quote pretty much sums up my belief system , perfectly.
I too have trouble seeing any Church as nessary for a relationship with God.
Christians all say its the one religion, the LDS say they are christian , the christians say they arent , the Catholics have a pope on and on and on .
We are all praying to the same god ,,,,right. There can only be one !!!!!
Religion(12 thousand different ones ) that all profess to be the path to salvation , cause more indefference and confusion that any thing else.
How can a person without BIAS not see the Church opposition(us agent them , them agenst us thing) as a serious flaw in a belief system.
For an agnostic. The single fact that everyone claimes they are part of the one true religion is further proof that they are(all) misguided.
The LDS members will argue to the death that they can prove the scriptures (Book of Morman) are a devine truth . Christians will argue to the death that teh LDS church is flawed and incorrect .
EVery LDS person I know will swear to god that they have a real and perfect relationship with god. They know it and see his work in thier lives ....
Have to go now ,,,,, I hope that made some sense. id. p.

[dlgobeavs]

Rimrock:

As you read through my thoughts on your post please do not read them in any type of sarcastic tone...as I finish writing these I discovered that without hearing me actually say these words, one could certainly choose to read them in a tone which was assumed to be laced with sarcasm, which was not my intent.



This has been helpful to me in expanding my understanding of Agnosticism. This like many discussions shows there is typically no one way of looking at a subject.



It's interesting that although you believe there is no "one" way of looking at a subject, you believe yours the only right way. Just curious, but how do you reconcile the fact that there are millions of people who all believe they are right?... and believe something TOTALLY different from you?


Christianity and God can never be proved beyond any doubt. If this is what you and other Agnostics and even Atheists are waiting for I’m afraid your wait will be in vain. I like the court room idea because we know that even in a worldly human sense that cases rarely if ever are proved beyond ANY doubt but are proved beyond any REASONABLE doubt.



Reasonable doubt? How can someone reasonably take a book written thousands of years ago and plan to live their whole life based on this book. If the religion -vs- atheism was a courtroom trial it would be over before it started. Religion's only "proof" would be based on the fact that god can't be uproven. The lawyer for religion would have to ask the jury to vote his direction based on "faith" ... not any proof.



There is quite a difference really when you think about it. Why do we hold God to a standard that we don’t use with the other truths we readily accept and believe to be true in our lives?


For instance?... (just curious)


There is an element of faith to bridge the “missing pieces”. This is certainly not blind faith but faith in what is reasonable to be true (I’m not saying that you can use reason to believe in Jesus, because faith is a gift from Him).



To me this just comes off as such circular reasoning. You don't have any proof... so you use the "gift of faith"... from the supposed person you are trying to prove is real... as your deciding factor.


To respect your wishes in not using the Bible as “propaganda” to support my discussion



Just so you know... this is the first step to keeping any agnostics attention. The second is to not refer to anything regarding god/religion/the bible in a tense which forces your audience to accept YOUR view as fact. "God loves every one of us", The third suggestion is that you not say things like "I pray God will enrichen your life as you get to know him" It is so self serving and such an assumptive remark. It is a little like being at the car dealership taking a walk around the first car you have seen and having the pushy car salesperson say "Would you like blue or red". If you are having a discussion with someone who doesn't have your same belief set, it is courtesy to allow them their own beliefs, and not force your on to them assumptively.


I’m just wondering how this standard of what is good came to be for you? After all, if we each just make it up for ourselves, this good standard, then whatever I say to be good is just as good as yours and anyone’s. Right, that’s fair because I know neither one of us would want to be that arrogant. We shouldn’t impose either one of our self-standards on anyone.



My standards were given to me by my parents... thanks to them for that. But you do highlight exactly the role that religion plays in our society. (and also my belief as to why we see it in so many forms across the world) Religion's primary function in most societies,(I'll say most just because I don't pretend to have studied all of societies different cultures) is to keep the masses in line. "Be a good person or you will go to hell" keeps the "id" under check for the normal person. Religion is like a handbook which is constantly evolving as societies and times change. Examples of this evolution can be seen in christian's interpretation of the bible. By choosing which passages society sees fit to adopt, you can make your case with different scriptures. I would be surprised if any of you "stone your wife for indescretions".. but if I am not mistaken there is a passage close to that in the bible. Is that a literal interpretation, sure... but so is the current interpretation of gay marriage. (I'm going to get myself in trouble here...lol... because I certainly can't quote the bible for competition... but I think you get my point)


Does a standard of morality come by chance, evolution, or by a creator that designs it into His creation? Really what do you think?



I'll take evolution AND chance for $1000 Alex. 100 years ago we thought slavery was OK. 500 years ago kings ruled by force ...10000 years ago caveman fought and killed for their dinner. Does this make all of this "moral"... certainly not. What it is though is the evolution of society. Times change, and society as a whole changes with it. I am certainly a product of society... we all are. I choose to live a "moral" life because it is generally accepted as the right thing to do by my peers. And, when I do live that moral code, I am rewarded by my peers in the form of friendship/recognition...etc. It is this need to be accepted that drives us all. Can you imagine your heartbreak if you were to do something that your church felt to be wrong... and were asked to not return? The fear of rejection is part of what keeps all of us in check. We are also motivated by reward. When you give a sermon to a group of people in your church, all the old ladies come up afterwards and say "Rimrock... that was just lovely" "Wow you were really being touched by the lord today"...which makes you feel good and perpetuates your actions.


Why else would we agree for example what Hitler did in WWII was evil? There is a basic knowledge of what is right and wrong that goes across generations

See my answer above... but society as a whole does not find that type of behavior to be acceptable.


so if you believe it also comes from a divine source or power the next big question is, who is this divine power? There can only be one after all not all the world religions can be right


Quite simply I do not....and as a result do not struggle at all with who made the rules. I only struggle with what I believe to be good rules. I question them at every turn to make sure they represent all member of our society...(please do read my disgust with treating gays as second class citizens into that last sentence).

[rimrock]

dlgobeavs,

Thanks for the reply and let me say that I haven’t taken any offense by your statements and I hope that you haven’t likewise.

I could give a fair explained answer to each one of your questions, and I’m more than willing to spend the time but I’m not sure of the value. For one in order to respect your wishes I cannot use a reference to God or the Bible. There are enough other evidences that I have pointed to in order to reveal some truth about God, but eliminating God from a discussion on religion is a bit like wanting to talk about fishing without talking about fish. If I were to say to you that I want to understand more about fishing but if you say a word to me about fish, their habits, their actions, what they are like than I’m not going to accept anything you say because you’re promoting your propaganda.

Many, I’m not saying you, who claim to be the most open-minded and are not the boastful ones who claim the truth quickly close the door if anyone shares a truth different from their own position. For example it is the common cliché of, “There is no such thing as absolute truth!” Now isn’t that an absolute statement and therefore contradicts itself? It’s the “open-minded” position but in reality it is very closed. This “closed-ness” comes from the natural human state, I know it is true and it will always grieve me to see people trapped in this state and I will continue to pray that God’s love will continue to change lives.

I love people and God because He loved me first. How does love come about any other way? By evolution? Inert matter somehow comes to life evolves to great complexity and develops conscious and love? It is a fingerprint of God. You may say that you get it from your parents. Well where did they get it, and where did they get it? If you really wish to understand the Christian response to Agnosticism than read 1 John in the Bible, the apostle John penned this letter to response to the notion of Agnosticism that was beginning to take hold in the church. If you don’t wish to read any propaganda then you have this freedom. God won’t force Himself on anyone; if you wish to keep the door closed He will allow you to do this. It is not “turn or burn”. Love must be freely returned or else it isn’t love at all. :angel:

God’s Blessing to you and to all who have been reading this thread,
Brad

[Talljeeper]

Fred I wanna talk to ya about your list.....
Paul

[reelbigfish72]

Interesting stuff.
Some of the latest posts remind me of an episode of South Park (I know that probably kills any credibility I may have had). Anyway I don't remember the plot exactly, but one of the characters dies and goes to heaven for just long enough to see it's only Mormons there. Turns out they were right and everyone else was wrong!
My point being: it seems to me everyone thinks they're right whether it be their religion is right, their particular version is right or whatever.
Here's a hypothetical: There's a tiny tribe on a remote island. They have no contact with the outside world. They live their lives in great harmony with their environment and each other. They don't really worship a "god" but they do have a great reverence for "mother nature". They've never heard of Jesus or the Bible. What happens to them when they die? They burn in Hell because they did not accept Jesus as their savior?
How about Native Americans prior to the "White Man" coming? Same thing? Or people who lived before Jesus?
I have to profess some ignorance about Christianity, since I've never read much of the Bible, maybe it answers those types of questions. If so sorry to take up the time and space.

[dlgobeavs]

Interesting stuff.
Some of the latest posts remind me of an episode of South Park (I know that probably kills any credibility I may have had). Anyway I don't remember the plot exactly, but one of the characters dies and goes to heaven for just long enough to see it's only Mormons there. Turns out they were right and everyone else was wrong!
My point being: it seems to me everyone thinks they're right whether it be their religion is right, their particular version is right or whatever.
Here's a hypothetical: There's a tiny tribe on a remote island. They have no contact with the outside world. They live their lives in great harmony with their environment and each other. They don't really worship a "god" but they do have a great reverence for "mother nature". They've never heard of Jesus or the Bible. What happens to them when they die? They burn in Hell because they did not accept Jesus as their savior?
How about Native Americans prior to the "White Man" coming? Same thing? Or people who lived before Jesus?
I have to profess some ignorance about Christianity, since I've never read much of the Bible, maybe it answers those types of questions. If so sorry to take up the time and space.



Welcome to the wonderful world of Agnosticism :smile:

[Talljeeper]

There are SO many doctrinal issues being stated/questioned here it is almost prohibitive to respond. May I challenge you to open your mind and heart.

If I may share with you a resource that I found very very helpful in my Christian walk.
The resource is The Christian Research Institute. Hank Hanegraaff is probably one of the most well read, well studied Bible and Christian theologians. He calls an ace an ace and a spade a spade. He is so profoundly knowledgeable I would challenge anyone to dispute religious issues with him. That is saying a lot! His historical knowledge of scripture, religions, cults, etc....is nothing short of spectacular. He responds with a spirit of love.

He has a wonderful radio show where callers call in for verification, translation, clarification etc. regarding religious topics. I am posting both sites. He get calls from everything from what has been asked on this thread to other more fundamental christian questions to evolutionists calling to argue, agnostics/aetheists etc...the show is a blessing, knowledge filled and very thought provoking.

I double dare ya to listen to him for one week. If there is something I dont agree with I then research it, but almost 100% he is right on the money...WOWza!
www.equip.org (http://www.equip.org)
http://www.oneplace.com/Ministries/bible_answer_man/Archives.asp
Please give it a try for one week......I like the archives of radio shows in the link above.

Let me know what you think, ok?
Paul

[id. painter]

I do believe strongly in God.
Its the hundreds of religions all professing to be based on the same document , the bible. that frustrates me.
There are Jolo "snake handlers " there are Christians and Catholics,and on and on who all have the same claim to God.
It isnt belief I have trouble with ,,,, its all the people who claim to know the CORRECT interpratation of the Bible .
In undergraduate school I took religious studies (christian)and it was no different (in my mind) than the way the Mormans sit around and pat themselves on the back for having the real "true word religion," They use the Bible and Quote the same passages as all the other religions,Christian included.
But the Christians will argue to the death that the Mormans are a Flawed interpratation... and not "CHRISTIAN".
They all believe that there is a God and love your family and ten comandments ,etc...,,,, but one(the Mormans) beileves in celestial levels and one claims that they know the real truth and its Jesus."Christians"
I see"religion" ,as a Human constructs to deal with the an incomprehensible , and illimitable superior reasioning power.
If indeed the bible is the "word of God " and the only source of information pertaining to the "right path " Then it is for ME to read and understand as God tells me ,,, Its Not for You or you or you to tell me or teach me what it says ,,,,
I have read the bible from cover to cover and no where does it say You have to be a member of a CHRISTIAN church to be saved .
It says very clearly that all you have to do is believe .
Giving your soul to Christ does not involve a pastor or a congragation.
Im very spiritual, I pray often , I try to live by the words Ive read in the bible , I teach my children about God, Faith and love .
And yet there are those who think Im lost because I dont go to the same church :whazzup: :shrug:.
I will pray that Jesus helps those out there who feel they have a monopoly on "Gods favor" to realize that they dont thru any religion,,, but thru the belief in Jesus and the good works of thier lives. :grin:
Peace id. p.

[rimrock]

Its the hundreds of religions all professing to be based on the same document , the bible. that frustrates me.

It isnt belief I have trouble with ,,,, its all the people who claim to know the CORRECT interpratation of the Bible .



Good points. What are the essential foundational pillars of Christianity? In other words, what makes Christianity – Christianity? The major core set of beliefs that separate Christians from non-Christians. Unfortunately some have a bad habit of making minor issues into the majors and this always causes great confusion. There are only a few majors. When you know these then it is easy to understand the differences between Christian, Mormon, Islam, Judaism, Buddhist…


I have read the bible from cover to cover and no where does it say You have to be a member of a CHRISTIAN church to be saved.

Giving your soul to Christ does not involve a pastor or a congragation.



Absolutely, salvation has nothing to do with being a member of a Christian church, but belonging to a church has everything to do with being a Christian. You must keep these two separate from one another. One has to do with salvation the other with sanctification (living the Christian life – discipleship). As you have read the Bible and state a desire to live by the Word (discipleship) then I’m sure you’re aware that God commands Christians to gather in corporate worship. “Let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another” (Hebrews 10:24-25). There is no such thing as a “Lone Ranger” Christian; this is an American idea not God’s. The church needs you just as much as you need the church.


I will pray that Jesus helps those out there who feel they have a monopoly on "Gods favor" to realize that they dont thru any religion,,, but thru the belief in Jesus and the good works of thier lives.



I would encourage you to just shorten this to “belief in Jesus”. Yes, good works flow naturally from someone who genuinely trusts in Jesus alone for their salvation, but works have absolutely nothing to do with “God’s favor”. I don’t know if you’re a father yourself but I’ll pose the questions anyway. Do you love your children because of what they do or don’t do, or just because they are your children? Yes, our children can grieve us and also bring us great joy by their actions, but this never has an effect on us loving them more or less. Now, if we as flawed parents do this how much more will God who is perfect, perfectly love His children? There is no such thing as loving 110%; God loves His children always 100% – 100% of the time! This is the freedom God offers His children who put their trust alone in Jesus Christ. :angel:

[id. painter]

Very nice reply Rimrock.
You state that the bible tells me that I have to be a member of the "church " "the church needs me as i do it".
Its just as an LDS missionary telling me I need the church he has choosen. He will defend his stance with the interpratations he has been schooled at and can win an arguement with someone less equipted . Just as a christian . I have watched on more than one occasion when a "christian and an Morman will argue back and forth for hours about what the bible says ,, heck Ive watched as Christians arge the meaning of specific pssaage or verse. Once again "The church needs me as I do the church". that is someone elses interpratation and not at all what I understood from the scripture and prayer.
Im not alone ,, Im a member of the human race and have a Complete and loving realationship with god ,,, Im sorry its not the same as you ... really . But Im as convinced as I can be, God is in my heart ,,,,, ,, I wish you all well ...
I will pray for those(enlightenment) out there who believe that my relationship with god needs in any way to be related to a specific church. :smile: Peace .
id. p.

[rimrock]

Hello again id. P.

Please allow me to expand on “the church needs you as much as you need the church”. This is not as much doctrine as it is real life. In real life each of us has joys and pains. God know this and instituted the church to in part provide a place for genuinely fellowship. Fellowship comes from the word “to share life together”. The church needs you due to the fact that you have a unique combination of gifts, abilities and life experiences that are intended not for you to keep for yourself but to share with other Christians.

For example I came to faith as an adult and before Christ lived a very ungodly lifestyle. Now when I encounter people in church who lived as I once did and are beginning their relationship with Jesus, they tend to feel like they will never “measure up” to all the lifelong Christians. Now when I share with them my life and where I was they begin to feel really encouraged because they thought I was this elder they could never identify with; who certainly could never have had the same temptations and trails - wrong. And what happens? Their faith is strengthened and God is glorified as the only One who can really change lives. There are many other examples: who better to fellowship (share life together) with a couple who is going through a miscarriage then another couple who went through the same trial, a parent of a sick child than another parent those child had the same illness… and on and on. A church is not only a place to share in our joy, but a place for the hurting needing others to come alongside them. Now your trails and joys are to be used to help others.

“You need the church.” Well, just reverse the paragraph above because life will have many ups and downs including your own.

Now, is a relationship with God even as revealed in the Bible about just you and Him? You say people need to be “enlightened” to the fact that your relationship with God needs in no way be related to a specific church. It’s ideal because it is only about you and God. Since God has a family (the church) lets compare this with how our own personal families work? If my daughter would tell the neighbor that her relationship with me is only about her and me and she doesn’t need the remainder of the family for us to have a real “enlightened” relationship wouldn’t that be a terribly self-focused oversight on her part? Doesn’t my son and wife need her and she in return them if she is to really know me and my heart for her and the entire family? Her understanding would be far from enlightened.

Yet many make this same leap when it comes to God and God’s family. We all, including myself, can get so focused on what we need, what we feel, what we….fill in the blank, that God’s desire is cut right out. God works in real life. He values each member of His family, but we are part of a family. I have a date with my daughter tonight to go for ice cream and I will place great focus on just her and let her know how much I love her, but she will only really know my deep love for her by experiencing it and see it worked out when we are all together as a family. :angel:

[Talljeeper]

Anybody dare to check out Hank?

[reelbigfish72]

Looked at the websites you linked us to. Read a few of the journal articles on the site. Nothing that I saw really blew my mind, but I honestly did not study it hard enough to make an informed comment yet.

[Abalone]

What would you call this:

Q. Do you remember what it was like before you were born ?
Can you remember what things were like before your Birthday??

Reply: That's exactly how things will be after you die.

It's as if nothing happened at all.

The war, Taxes and all the little worries won't matter.
Enjoy yourself while you are here.

For some reason no matter how hard I try this is the way I see it.

I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic schools.

Nothing I have encounter in my life has convinced me of anything else.

I pray and I read the Bible.....

Yet something inside me tells me this is it....

Am I an Athiest, Agnostic or a true Believer ??

Go on the net and do a search. Learn what Einstien and other geniuses of the world have to say about God.

Bottom line it's all about Faith..........

Until that enlightening experience that some people have comes along ?