God vs the environment

[dlgobeavs]

Good morning all. First let me say I am not posting this on the main board because it would clearly be an inflamatory post there that would end up very political. However, I though this section of ifishers might have some insight for me regarding your take on what appears to be a conflict of interest. I believe that conflict arrises when someone with christian beliefs also feels strongly about preserving the environment for future generations.

Read the attached link, and tell us what you think? My question is quite simply this. If the article is true factually- in terms of how people voted, (granted just because someone writes it doesn't make it the truth... but for arguements sake... lets assume the voting records are true) if it IS true about the voting records of the majority of "christian" politicians... does this concern you as fisherman?

Link to the article (http://www.grist.org/news/maindish/2004/10/27/scherer-christian/)

Good day to all.

Dave

[STGRule]

Wow. I'll have to think on that for a bit. I would hope that it wasn't true. For all our sakes.

[FROGGY]

Before I make a quick response to this post I will explain myself. I am a Christian, and believe in Jesus Christ, but I am by no means an expert on the bible.
That link obviously points out an extreme group of people that are strong believers that the end is near. Do I believe the end is near? Yes I do, maybe not in my lifetime but I think it is around the corner. The bible says “only God knows the hour of his return”, so it is impossible for man to be able to predict the end.
Most Christians I know take care of the environment as best we can. Anyone that would want to destroy Gods creation because they believe the end is near has it all wrong. Over and over again in the bible it says to treat all of god’s creation with respect and cherish it.

For the sake of argument consider this:

That article explains that a group of Christians are mistreating the environment because it won’t be here long anyways. They are a very small percentage of the Christians in the world that have that view.

There are a small percentage of people in our “fishing group” that mistreat the environment as well; you can see evidence of that at any favorite fishing hole. Are fishermen a bunch of extreme environmental damagers? Absolutely not, a majority of them are good stewards of the earth.

Christians as a whole do not have the extreme view depicted in that article, we actually are quite the opposite in that we love what God has created for us.

I will have to see some more proof of how these politicians voted, or things they said. I think we might only be getting part of the story in this article. If they do believe we should just **** the land because the end is near, they should not hold such powerful positions in government. If they themselves are trying to fulfill prophecy, then they are not believers. I wouldn’t want someone with the exact opposite view to be a power player in government, I.E. shutting down all growth, technologies, ect.

[rimrock]

The dangers of trying to make or believe that America is a “Christian Nation” for one I don’t even know what that means. There are no specific promises regarding America – God is concerned with His church not a country. We can’t hasten or slow Christ’s return and furthermore Jesus rebukes in Matthew 24 those who focus on or try to predict it. We are to focus on the two greatest commandments (Love God and love people).

Dave, to answer your question directly; yes, the lack of concern some Christian politicians show for the environment because of end times dogma is challenging. I’m not sure why so many in the Christian community focus on end times (i.e. the amazing sales of the Left Behind Series). What a waste of time; shouldn’t we focus on the living not the end? I will enjoy the freedom of letting God handle the end times and I will seek worship and to be the witness He calls me to be (A good steward of my time, abilities, wealth…and even the environment).

The political problem is if you want to support a more environmentally friendly group, as I would desire to. Then that other group tends to be pro-abortion, same sex marriage, euthanasia, ACLU, gun control, Hollywood world view… The list can go on but I think the point is made. I must make a choice for it is a right and privilege to vote in this great county that was earned by others, so I chose what honors the most important things to God. The greatest of which is people and life.

It is difficult and sad that some politicians and other Christians do and say things that they truly believe aid the cause of Christ and miss the purposes of Christ all together. The solution - I don’t know. I just take comfort in the fact that God is in control and no matter how much I or anyone else tries and screw things up He is still on His throne. :angel:

[dlgobeavs]

For the sake of argument consider this:

That article explains that a group of Christians are mistreating the environment because it won’t be here long anyways. They are a very small percentage of the Christians in the world that have that view.

Christians as a whole do not have the extreme view depicted in that article, we actually are quite the opposite in that we love what God has created for us.





I hope you are right. But I think the problem is that even if it is a small group that have that extreme view... the christian dollars dictate how politicians vote... and they vote alarmingly against the environment. Additionally some of the leaders in congress DO have that view and influence policy.

[dlgobeavs]

solution - I don’t know. I just take comfort in the fact that God is in control and no matter how much I or anyone else tries and screw things up He is still on His throne. :angel:



Thanks for the comments. Let me say upfront that I consider myself Agnostic...(just so nobody thinks I am hiding my beliefs to incite arguments on "your turf" :smile: )

For me it is scary to sit by and watch as people disregard the environment under the cover of "gods watchful eye". Not holding these same politicians to task seems to be an apathetic way to approach saving our fish.

Do you think there is any reason from a christian perspective to not encourage a republican pro environmental vote... even if we disagree on other political fronts (gay marriage/abortion etc)? It seems that we could be united in this area... they are two totally different voting issues.

[FROGGY]

Even if everything in the article is true, these guys are a very small pocket in the whole political realm. It may seem like these guys have lots of power, but it take a whole lot more than just them to come up with or create new policies. And lets all be honest, we are concerned only with fish, and the protection of them. Not saying that’s bad, but full protection of one thing leads to the neglect of another. Since we all love fish and love to fish we have our own agenda.

I don’t like politics at all, to me it’s a lot of smoke and mirrors, nothings as it seems, especially coming out of the mouths of politicians. Unfortunately it seems that the political parties must fall into one group of beliefs or another, not individual beliefs or agendas. I guess that’s the cards we’ve been dealt.

Where’s Tom McCall when you need him?

[rimrock]

Yes, Dave I feel we can be united in this area from a Christian perspective. For God created man to love and know Him and to care for His creation in the Garden of Eden. If you read Genesis before the Fall this was the original plan, before we decided to pursue our own selfish purposes. God never intended us to abuse His creation but since the Fall of man, we have and will continue in our sinful nature to misuse what God has called good.

As I pointed out earlier and has you also kindly noted in your response that the other “separate issues” do come into play. In our political system the group that promotes people and life tends not to hold environmental issues highly, but even the moderate and of course the more liberal groups may hold the environment highly they don’t hold life issues highly. An admitted challenge.

Yes, we in the Christian community should encourage a better republican pro environmental vote. We can agree on this and shouldn’t turn a blind eye to it, but for now even though I agree they are two different voting issues they are presently linked to other issues from a political party standpoint. This is not a justification to be apathetic because being a republican has nothing to do with being a Christian. :angel:

[letsfish]

So many good things said about an issue that unfortunately hurts lots of us for different reasons . It is a shame you don't see pro enviroment republicans get too far in politics, I think it is a black mark on the party and people therefore have a "republican equals non caring " bias.
Some quotes I would like to affirm:

Yes, we in the Christian community should encourage a better republican pro environmental vote



being a republican has nothing to do with being a Christian.

[happybrew]

While there are certainly groups that hold the views in that article, they are in the minority. A very small minority. My church's view is this, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:


338 Nothing exists that does not owe its existence to God the Creator. The world began when God's word drew it out of nothingness; all existent beings, all of nature, and all human history are rooted in this primordial event, the very genesis by which the world was constituted and time begun.[207]
339 Each creature possesses its own particular goodness and perfection. For each one of the works of the "six days" it is said: "And God saw that it was good." "By the very nature of creation, material being is endowed with its own stability, truth and excellence, its own order and laws."[208] Each of the various creatures, willed in its own being, reflects in its own way a ray of God's infinite wisdom and goodness. Man must therefore respect the particular goodness of every creature, to avoid any disordered use of things which would be in contempt of the Creator and would bring disastrous consequences for human beings and their environment.
340 God wills the interdependence of creatures. The sun and the moon, the cedar and the little flower, the eagle and the sparrow: the spectacle of their countless diversities and inequalities tells us that no creature is self-sufficient. Creatures exist only in dependence on each other, to complete each other, in the service of each other.
341 The beauty of the universe: The order and harmony of the created world results from the diversity of beings and from the relationships which exist among them. Man discovers them progressively as the laws of nature. They call forth the admiration of scholars. The beauty of creation reflects the infinite beauty of the Creator and ought to inspire the respect and submission of man's intellect and will.
342 The hierarchy of creatures is expressed by the order of the "six days", from the less perfect to the more perfect. God loves all his creatures[209] and takes care of each one, even the sparrow. Nevertheless, Jesus said: "You are of more value than many sparrows", or again: "Of how much more value is a man than a sheep!"[210]
343 Man is the summit of the Creator's work, as the inspired account expresses by clearly distinguishing the creation of man from that of the other creatures.[211]




As far as the Republican Party goes, it proves the saying "politics makes strange bedfellows." As Rimrock pointed out, for many Christians, the alternative is full of deal breakers. Many Christians, I dare say a majority, simply cannot support what the Democratic Party supports, without going against the teachings of their church. The Republicans at the same time attract a lot of business interests. Business is morally neutral. It can be done in a good way, or in a bad way. A bad way would be in a way that is insensitive to those around them, putting profit above all else, including the environment and other people. So when business interests get lumped in with Christian interests, sometimes people think they stand for one and the same thing when they do not. Personally, although I tend to vote Republican, I have little faith that they will entirely advance my interests as a Christian in public life. If the Democrats dropped their culture of death and their tendency towards socialism, I'd vote for them, as I share many of their views. But those two things are deal breakers for me.

Ironically, Democrats for Life did a statistical analysis of the last election and determined that John Kerry would have won had he been pro-life, precisely because of the number of people who share many Democrat ideals, but view the life issues as deal breakers.

happybrew

[Jennie@ifish]

I'm going to close this thread.
Granted, it's good to use your thinker... However, this forum was created for a different reason, and I don't think we want to add politics to that reason.
Thanks for your understanding.
Go ahead and think about it, sure... but let's not debate, here... OK?
Please?
Jen