Consider This.

[feisty's wife]

Most of my post in the Chapel are not too welcome, as I do not agree with Churchianity, but think about this for a moment, if I can express my thought correctly...We do not 'begin' at conception, we are eternal, so...what are we doing before we come to this planet? The Bible teaches'heaven or hell, turn or burn', so seeing as how it does, knowing that we pre-exist, what are we doing prior to coming here? I beleive most of the adherant's to Churchianity prefer to not think a lot about these question's, simply wanting their 'pastor' to do the thinking for them, after all, isn;t Church all about making you 'feel good', till the 'Christian' get's his/her next fix of 'Spirituality'? Please understand, I am NOT trying to rile anyone up, I do not dis-like those who practice Churchianity, I simply think Churchianity has put Gawd into a box, American Churchianity is nauseating, I was taking my son's to AWANA's, but will be pulling them, and sticking them into Cub Scout's. Anyway, back to the original question, since we are eternal, what give's?Please, no anger, we are only talking here. :tongue:

[letsfish]

Good question, but I believe we are conceived and created. And that is our "start". We did did not pre-exist in another form or dimension. Each of us is unique. This is the "first chapter" of the rest of your life.

[Salmon Stryker]

Before conception I only exsisted as a twinkle in my daddy's eye. :hearton:

[Armored Angler]

0

[flapbreaker]

I beleive most of the adherant's to Churchianity prefer to not think a lot about these question's, simply wanting their 'pastor' to do the thinking for them, after all, isn;t Church all about making you 'feel good', till the 'Christian' get's his/her next fix of 'Spirituality'? :tongue:



Feisty,

You could of asked the question and left out your judgement of other's. People attend church for various reasons. People of any faith want to try and lives their life according to the teachings of their God. This may give them peace and happiness. Something that is difficult to acheive going it alone. From the context of your above statement I sense that you feel the majority of Christians don't think for themsleves. I can assure you that many Christians do think for themselves. Many even question the methodology of their own religion. If we didn't we wouldn't be human. Anyway just thought I'd respond to your'e idea's.

As far as the point of your question. I don't believe we become "eternal" until we die. Everyone who die's will have ever lasting life. It's up to you to decide where you spend it. :cheers:

[rimrock]

Hello Feisty, this is my first response to you and I welcome your questions and posts. I’m not the least bit offended or put off by any of your questions or statements. You are always welcome!


as I do not agree with Churchianity



First of all, would you be willing to say in what ways you do not agree with “Churchianity”? I would like to gain some understanding and won’t be the least bit bothered by how you feel be as direct and frank as you wish. You can PM me, post it here or not reply at all whatever makes you comfortable.


Anyway, back to the original question, since we are eternal, what give's?




From a Christian world view your statement of being eternal is partly correct. It may be best to break it into two parts for you, the first being from conception on, and the second say “proceeding” conception. The answer to the first part is, yes, we are all eternal. Jesus said in John 5:28-29, "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when ALL who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out - those who have done good (i.e. trusted in Jesus) will rise to live, and those who have done evil (i.e. rejected Jesus) will rise to be condemned.” So you are correct here. Every human is eternal from the moment of conception. Some will live eternally with Jesus and some will live eternally without Him in torment. Now, the second half was “proceeding” conception. There is nothing in scripture that says we are pre-existing. Rather the weight of scripture points to the exact opposite. Lets pick the very first one in Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God…” There was only God. This is a sole attribute of God a quality of divinity. He is the pre-existing one; the uncaused first cause. If man were also pre-existing you would be saying that man has a divine quality (pre-existence). Scripture is clear that ALL things have been created by God including man.

Hope this helps.

[Salmon Stryker]

rimrock,

You are very good at this! I have really appreciated your responses and posts on this board lately. :flowered:

[happybrew]

Feisty:

Consider this

Jeremiah, 1:5

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew [ Or chose ] you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

God's knowledge of us pre-existed us. We have a beginning. There is a "before [God] formed you". If we were without beginning, we would be co-eternal with God. If we are co-eternal with God, then we could not have been created by God. Yet Genesis says "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness"

Furthermore, Jesus said

Matthew 3:9
And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

Were Jesus to do this, they would not pre-exist that moment. Prior to that, they would be stones.

As far as "Churchianity" goes, I came to the conclusions that my church holds independently of my church, and chose that church because I knew it to be the correct one. Nobody did my thinking for me. I had to learned everything the hard way, and reinvented the wheel numerous times. I sure wish what you're saying about letting someone else do the thinking were correct, because it would have been a heck of a lot easier for me! :wink:

happybrew

[Armored Angler]

Happy brew, Very excellent words, I went to catholic grade school for 8 years, but catholocism to me did not seem to be what I was looking for from what I believed the bible to say. I butted heads with the priests over and over and over again during religion studies (you can probably tell that from my previous posts) and was told " you must accept the catholic tradition because we are the true faith " even when it contradicted bible truth. I had a very hard time during the 7th & 8th grade because I chose not to let someone else be my conscience. Through years of trial and error I found eventually what I think God was showing me. I have no animosity to anyone of the catholic faith because the bible says in the end he will call the truly faithful out of ALL the churches and bring them together under his banner. There are true saints in every church. I understand what is meant by "Churchianity", the bible says there is only one true church. I can't sat I totally honestly know which it is except that it is the one that truly will serve the lord and will humble itself to him in the end times under great persecution to its members. We are getting closer to that day, I AM sure of that. We have been warned there will be many antichrists leading up to the final days and the final antichrist. The one true church will be the "Church of God" according to Revelations, I am still keeping my eyes & heart open so that when I see it I will recognize it if it is different from what I see now, instead of "believing a lie" as the scripture says most will. There are many clues in the bible as to what comprises the true church, let us not be fooled by the false prophet satan. Let us be humble and open to the word. We can be a closed vessel/bottle floating in the word and never be filled though we are surrounded by it or we can be an open vessel who is immersed and filled in the word of our god. organized religion can lead many astray and alienate or it can fill mankind with hope, only the word of god can show us the difference.

[happybrew]

I went to catholic grade school for 8 years, but catholocism to me did not seem to be what I was looking for from what I believed the bible to say. I butted heads with the priests over and over and over again during religion studies (you can probably tell that from my previous posts) and was told " you must accept the catholic tradition because we are the true faith " even when it contradicted bible truth.



I have to chuckle here! :laugh: I can identify with everything you're saying, I had the same experience. The problem was, however, that it was often either Jansenism (a traditionalist heresy) or Modernism (the liberal heresy) that was being taught, and not authentic Catholicism. And nobody could tell me the reason to believe any of it. So I left when I was old enough to decide for myself. After neither belonging to nor going to any church for many years, I began some serious study. After looking at various churches, I went back to Catholicism. And you know what? It still has the same problems! :shrug: But it's getting better. :cheers:

happybrew

[feisty's wife]

I am an adherant of re-incarnation, I beleive we have lived thru MANY lifetime's, we have many lesson's to learn, I do not beleive the Bible to be the infallable, inerrant Word of God, I beleive most churche's are merely social club's, authenticity is sadly lacking, I have given up on the churches of today, going my own way. Has anyone else on thisd board done any research into the origin's of the Bible, the Coucel of Nicea, where Constantine agreed to back the Church, if the differing faction's could agree to some central tenet's of their faith[the Gnostic's lost out on that one]do any of you know/care that re-incarnation was taught as one of the central aspect's of Christianity?Jesus refered to re-incarnation in several places, folk's...this is real. Is anyone aware of the Astral World's, the Universe is complex, and exist on many level's, all seperated only by differing vibration's on the level of energy.Too much to put into one post...a good place to begin would be to read a book by Carol Bowman'Children's Past Live's....you will not be sorry you did. I also was at one time a Christian, but therte were so many ? it did not answer, re-incarnation answer's all my question's.Have a good day, all, the fishing will really suck today. :dance:

[flapbreaker]

Feisty,

The one thing I've always wondered about re-incarnation is why the population continues to grow? Shouldn't there be a certian number of "people" that get recycled or are there new "souls" born as well? I personally don't by re-incarnation. For one thing there would still need to be a higher "power" dictating what happens and for me I don't see the point of being recycled. :shrug: No worries though if I'm wrong maybe I'll come back as a multi-millionaire! :grin:

[rimrock]

Feisty,
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate this chance to begin a dialogue with you. You covered many issues in your last post, so please forgive me that I only have time to response to one. Please don’t feel that I am ignoring your other topics it is just too much to handle in a single post.

CAUTION: Super long post! I tried to be as brief as possible; a difficult task in light of this discussion.

Since your first issue was reincarnation and linking it with the Bible, I felt this was a good place to start.


I am an adherant of re-incarnation




re-incarnation was taught as one of the central aspect's of Christianity?Jesus refered to re-incarnation in several places, folk's...this is real.




It is always best to define terms to make sure we are on the same page. I’ll begin and if you disagree please say so for I am not trying to put words in your mouth. Reincarnation asserts that death is but an intermediary stage in a cycle where the eternal soul passes from one physical body to another. This cycle of death and rebirth continues until the person finally attains a state of utter perfection. For many, this includes becoming "one with the universe."

Can such a view be found within the pages of Scripture? The answer: No. Reincarnation opposes the message of God's Word. It is essentially an attempt of works to gain our own righteousness to perfection through a myriad of lifetimes. In other words we are trying to work our way to "heaven". We are incapable of this in Titus 3:5 "(God) saved us not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy.” We only get one lifetime in this world the Bible explicitly states "it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27-28). There are no second chances. There is no coming back.

Scripture tells us that upon death "the spirit returns to God who gave it" (Ecc. 12:7), that "to be away from the body" is to be "at home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8). Indeed, the Christian's hope rests not on the reincarnation of the soul, but in the resurrection of the body (1 Cor. 15:42-55).

The case I am making is the teaching of reincarnation is simply not in the Bible – Scripture and reincarnation cannot be reconciled. In some eastern religions yes reincarnation is taught but lets begin by understanding that it is not in the Bible. If you disagree would you please reference for me where? This would be helpful.

On a personal note it would be such a horribly painful thing to have your hope in reincarnation rather than the resurrection. First of all, we would never escape the curse and brokenness of this world – We would continue to go round and round. Also never to see loved ones again. If one of our children would die or a long lived family member or friend that is it we never see them again. Only in Christianity is there real hope. Not only will we see them again we will hold them and be loved by them again in a world where evil is forever removed, “He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." (Rev. 21:4). As long as this world continues as it does in reincarnation “the old order of things” remains and all that goes with it.

It is my sincere hope that I may have other opportunities to continue discussions with you.
:angel:

[fishnwHim]

rimrock,

You are very good at this! I have really appreciated your responses and posts on this board lately. :flowered:



I am in agreement Salmon Stryker !!! :wave: :wave: :wave:

[PeterMac]

Feisty,

Pick up a copy of "Blue Like Jazz" written by Don Miller, I think you'll find it very interesting. In addition, he was just written up in this week's Willamette Week.

PeterMac

[CATCH AND EAT]

Feisty, to clear up one issue here is that you are always free to express your opinion as many often do that do not agree with some facits of Christianity. As I have often responded negatively to some of your posts because I either can believe my eyes or I just disagree with you is not the point. We are all here to grow and grasp an understanding of God's intent in our lives.

I don't agree with half the stuff posted here but fortunately I know nothing about half the stuff posted. :wink: What I do know is this. Christ is my Savior and I have accepted him into my life. I am an imperfect vessel trying to represent a perfect God. I may not agree with my pastor at times of the teaching of my denomination because of the beliefs I have personally form.(notice I do not follow blindly :smirk:as you have surmised.) I believe the Bible is a devinely inspired book breathed from God's own desire.

I believe we can inherit eternal life by accepting Christ into our lives and by living according to the plan of salvation. God has always known we will be but our start did not happen until conception. If we recieve Christ and live the life using Christ as our model we will be accepted into heaven. If we choose to not accept Christ our lives are forever lost and a temporary hot weather fire desert with the devil will be our home until the final trumpet has sounded for judgement is issued. :bigshock:

Only God will judge us at that time as to whether we live with him or die along with the devil. As imperfect a Christian that I am, I am forgiven and seek forgiveness every single day for big sins and little sins that I commit. He is a gracious Father full of mercy and love. All we have to do is accept Him.

I can understand your bitter feelings regarding church. I've had them too and let them get to me. But the fellowship of Christians helped me through this and heal my bitterness. It took four years for this healing to happen and boy was that a miserable time. But the support of the church and friends has been worth it and I will continue to worship corporately as I have always done.

Signed, a preachers kid

Bernie

[fishonksm]

Feisty, because you post here and ask the questions that you do, you have to be at leased open to what is said here and I believe you do. Not all of us here are taught in the same ways, but the one thing that does stand out here is that there is only one way to have eternal life in heaven and that is the forgiveness of ones sins. That forgiveness comes in the person of Jesus Christ, who was God come to earth in human form. That thru his sinless life (having committed no sin) was made sin for man kind. That he was killed, buried, and was resurrected on the third day to reunite mankind back to God.
Jesus died ONCE for ALL. Because of this truth all that is required of us today is to ask for the forgiveness of our sins and believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. That’s the plain truth. Nothing more can added and nothing can be taken away.
I believe that life biologically beings at conception and at that time our souls are placed in our bodies. Check out Palms 119. This should explain it. Just where we are up until this time, I have no clue. I haven’t found that out yet, but I do know where I’m going to spend eternity and what I’m going to be doing. Revelations tells me I’ll be in heaven with my savior (because he forgave me of my sins when I asked) singing a new song. What a great day that will be.
Can I ask you a question? For those who don’t believe that Jesus was who he clamed to be or do what he clamed to have done. Where are they going to spend eternity and what will they be doing?
There is a religion that professes that there are spirits (souls) in heaven that are waiting to inhabit human forms, live on earth and return to heaven to be Gods. I can find no mention of this in the bible so I profess it to be false. Mainly because it takes away from Jesus Christ and the salvation he brought to mankind.
You have said you don’t like churchianity because God has been put in a box. Haven’t you put God in a box because of your way of thinking? All those impressions left by all those churchiainty people. Not all churches are bad. Heck some are worse than others. If you find a perfect church let me know so I can stay away from it. I wouldn’t want to infect it. Churches should be looked upon as hospitals. Places for the sick and wounded a place for the hurting. After all, aren’t we a sick and dieing race? Churches need to be a place for healing for restoration. My pastor suggests that even our bibles are cruches and we should carry two of them.
If you couldn’t answer the question above, let me just say that the bible is full of Gods truths and has answers to all of lifes questions, we just have to read it and dig them out. The bible says that one day every knee shall bow, every tong confess that Jesus Christ is lord. We as a race are running out of days to call upon Jesus for our salvation I hope you will not let another go by without asking for his forgiveness and seek him as your lord. Also the bible says that Hell will be a place of wailing and nashing of teeth a place of torment for all eternity, a far cry from singing a new song.
On a personal side I think your making a bad move with the kids. Kids need Jesus at a young age. The bible tells us to train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it. Jesus is the right foundation for building stronger kids.
It’s not the church or the people we need to look at. We need to keep our eyes on Jesus.
MY OPINION thanks for the time. Kim

[RvW]

Most of my post in the Chapel are not too welcome, as I do not agree with Churchianity, but think about this for a moment, if I can express my thought correctly...We do not 'begin' at conception, we are eternal, so...what are we doing before we come to this planet? The Bible teaches'heaven or hell, turn or burn', so seeing as how it does, knowing that we pre-exist, what are we doing prior to coming here? I beleive most of the adherant's to Churchianity prefer to not think a lot about these question's, simply wanting their 'pastor' to do the thinking for them, after all, isn;t Church all about making you 'feel good', till the 'Christian' get's his/her next fix of 'Spirituality'? Please understand, I am NOT trying to rile anyone up, I do not dis-like those who practice Churchianity, I simply think Churchianity has put Gawd into a box, American Churchianity is nauseating, I was taking my son's to AWANA's, but will be pulling them, and sticking them into Cub Scout's. Anyway, back to the original question, since we are eternal, what give's?Please, no anger, we are only talking here. :tongue:



I cant help but feel a bit insulted by the use of the word "churchianity" trivializing what so many people take more seriously than any other thing in thier lives. Your view that it is neauseating also seems a bit condescending and the disclaimer that you post asking others to discuss the topic seems to indicate that your aware of the offensive nature of your post.
So be it. I'll say that I am not angry, just a bit confused.
Do you seek opinions? Are the answers to the questions you asked meant to enlighten christians from a non-christian point of view? Or could there be a little desire on your own part to be enlightened by the ideas and concepts of "churchianity" by asking those who subject themselves to such neauseating concepts?
Because there really IS no answer to the questions you asked. None! And you know it! But I will say this...FAITH is an answer that satisfies many many people. You seem very satisfied in your own assumption that we are all reincarnated...how is it that a faith of a different nature such as christianity (with far more history, facts, evidence and followers) is so far fetched to you?
Reincarnation is quite trivial in comparison, and Ive discovered that if I think about it for too long I become neauseated!

I have to say I am very disappointed in people who decisively conclude that churchianity-christianity is not for them and believe it is as far fetched as you think it is...Why? Because 99.9% of the people who feel this and actually verbalize it have barely made an effort to LEARN what christianity IS. Have you read the bible with an open mind? Have you attended church NOT with the attitude that you are there to be convinced of miricles, but to learn and base your decisions and opinions on what you know, rather than what you assume?

Heres a few facts that we all know are irrifutable facts.
We are born. We live on earth. We die.
Is there anything else that is more profoundly true and as common among us as the blood that flows through our veins? Do any unanswerable questions really matter?

Just because you believe in reincarnation doesnt mean its real. Just because I believe that christ exsisted doesnt mean he did...oh wait...HE DID walk on this very earth! Were all of his desciples liars?

The bible, no matter how you interpret it, can be used as a wonderful guideline to life. Imagine if believers and nonbelievers shared the concepts of the ten comandments! Do you agree this big blue orb would be a much better place to live a life of happiness? Why not read the bible as a reference book? And rather than expecting to be enlightened by it...search for the good things within it that make as much sense to "believers" as they do to non-believers.


It seems a little foolish to type this into a the black hole we know as the web, but I am very very happy there are people in here who can reasonably respond to your post, (and many others like it) with an authority of knowledge that astounds me. I certainly dont have the knowledge to argue your points and debate your unanswerable questions and I am not extremely interested in encouraging you to re-aproach christianity with a completely open mind because I really cant tell you WHY you should with any factual support. But I will say this in closing. If and when you accept the lord into your heart, dont expect to be overwhelmed with an intensity equal to the level of your doubts and questions. Give it a chance to grow within you, and consume you over time. I cant assure you it will...but wouldnt you like to believe it could?
I do! I hope I can elaborate on what I mean without boring you. If someone asked me if the sun was going to come up tomorrow...can I prove it will? No, I cant. But I would say yes anyway. And we all know why. It has risen everyday, 365 days a year for the 38 years Ive been alive. My "yes" answer is my FAITH that it will. My hope that I will also see it rise. Is this neauseating to you? Is my profound belief that that sun will grace the sky tomorrow a feeble assumption? Maybe. But every day it rises reinforces my faith that it will again. Every time I read of ones faith in the lord based on what they know, and what they believe brings me a little closer to accepting it as truth. I hope you give yourself the same oportunity.


I hope you will consider one thing and please dont take it the wrong way, its simply a suggestion. Allow your children to be exposed to all of it. And let them decide for themselves when you are satisfied they have learned enough to be able to MAKE a reasonable decision. That is a very fair and balanced way to give your children every oportunity you now have to make a choice.

I wish you the best.

[fishnwHim]

As I sat in church Sunday, the Lord put it on my heart to pray for Fiesty, which I did. Then I felt saddened by the fact that if he had ever experienced the things I have experienced with my church family and with Jesus, well, he wouldn't feel the way he does. One morning while in worship I saw myself pressing through a crowd of people, who were all dancing and singing, as I broke through , there, right in front of me was Jesus. He was looking directly at me and smileing, He stretched out His hand , and I took it, and we danced. I have never experienced such pure Joy in all my life. Nothing else mattered, the voices of all the other people faded, there were no cares or worries, just joy !! I am so blessed to have been given that vision to remember through my life. " The church experience means nothing, The Jesus experience means everything" :dance: :dance: :dance:

[Salmon Stryker]

Great response Row! :applause: It's like what I wanted to say but didn't want to take the time to think it all out.

Unlike you though I'm not too upset about the "churchianity" clause though it is disrespectful. I can't help but see that many churches are failing and that many people in churches are hypocrites and posers. I can see how someone like Fiesty could walk into a church...perhaps the wrong one and walk out very discouraged. I don't however believe that someone should use that experience to judge all churches and forms of christianity and then use that as an excuse to deny truth.

I'm more offeded by the word "Gawd."

Feisty it is my prayer that your posts are written out of a deep longing in your heart for truth. I hope you are not just here on the chapel board to try and cause problems. You have proven that you own a set cohones for sharing your not so popular beliefs on this board. You have also proven that you are a man of great faith believing the things you do. Christianity could really use more men like you. I hope someday you will sign up...it's free. :applause:

[feisty's wife]

Thanks very much for the honest, well thought out responses, I do apreciate/respect them, I do not beleive it all, but certainly respect it. I was raised in Churchianity, 'accepted Jesus', more time's than I can remember, was traaining for the ministry for a couple od year's, till joining thee Navy. to stay out of Nam, been there, done that...have tried for year's to be a part of the church scene, to be accepted, found that if I did not give the accepted amount of money, I was alway's eased out, my wife feel's, the same way, and she attended the same church for almost 20 year's. I at one time knew the Bible very well, memorized lot's of it, so I could 'share my faith', so that is me...I have faith , as I say, in re-incarnation, I beleive we plan our live's before we come back, as Shakespere[sp] said'All the world is but a stage'I think we are all actor's who have forgotten we are in a play, we learn our part's, do our part, and go offstage till the next act. I again thank you for the honest answer's, RvW, very good, thank you, you all have a good day. :dance:

[rimrock]

Feisty, your post sadly reveals some truth about the Church today. Many Christians have an “us vs. them” mentality. We at times attack people and forget that, “our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.” (Eph. 6:12).

The reason I enjoyed and grew from my discussion with Armored Angler in another thread is by the way it was handled. We disagreed and discussed the issue, but AA never attacked me personally and showed great maturity by doing this. We disagreed without being offended, reasoned back without anger which I believe lead to mutually respect and fellowship. How can it be that two can disagree and I’m sure still disagree and come out of it growing more towards friendship than enemies? It is by what you focus on, “fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith.” (Heb. 12:2). Notice, my friends in Christ, the burden of being Christ-like is upon the believer not the unbeliever. We are the ones called to be “imitators of Christ”, why do we expect this from someone who doesn’t believe in Jesus? We expect them to do something that isn’t even possible for them to do. We expect them to be open-minded and get bothered by offensive statements. Did Jesus hear “a couple” offensive statements? How did He respond? With whom did He spend the majority of His time? The “religious” ones that took offense from those who need to get their act together, or was Jesus called “the friend of sinners.” Remember friends the only Jesus some people will ever see is the Jesus we reflex. I also don’t always reflex Jesus and this is why the fellowship of believers is so important for we are called to encourage on another and at times gentle illuminate where we don’t reflex Jesus in our actions. We are blessed to find a gracious forgiving Father and again be given opportunities to reflex His light into a world trapped in darkness.


Feisty,


have tried for year's to be a part of the church scene, to be accepted, found that if I did not give the accepted amount of money, I was alway's eased out




It greatly grieves me that this can be true. It has been demonstrated time and time again the number one cause of atheism or people leaving the Church today is – Christians. Here your statement of “churchianity” is sadly correct. I will pray that you will not give up on God for God will not give up on you. I believe you have experienced the pains that can come from an overly legalistic church. I surmise this from your statement, “that if I did not give the accepted amount of money, I was always eased out.” In a previous tithing thread this is the biggest reason why I was so against the “rigid” approach some Churches take (Please Note: I’m not implying anything against anyone that feels lead to give a 10% tithe – Please don’t make this leap I’m addressing the approach not the amount). I have visited many a friend’s home church full of wonderful Christians, but at the same time I have overheard in these Churches statements like, “So, Bill are you robbing God?” I than always see the same silent reaction in the face of the individual to whom the question was asked – Guilt. God doesn’t motive us in this manner and even set aside this burden of guilt, “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.” (Gal 5:1). I pray that God will move in your heart once again and even lead you to a different Church body or denomination if this will lead you to the true faith. It would be a blessing to have you come to a worship service on any Sunday with me and my family if you so desire. You will not find perfection, but you will also never find guilt only love and forgiveness. :angel:

[Chromaflage]

Feisty, if/when I get a few minutes, I too would like to offer a dissertation. In the mean time, and while I further ponder the vast number of issues raised in this thread, one thing about your posts jumps out at me. Several times you have referred to "churchianity" and "expericences." This may lead one to believe that in your exploration of Christianinity, you were seeking a spiritual "experience," but were left wanting. This is what I consider one of satan's dirty tricks. Christianity is not about an "experience," "spritual highs," or some supernatural bonk on the head. Also, so many people view Chrisitanity as a set of "can't do" rules. It's not about that!!! It's what we "get to" do and be. Christianity is simply about answering God's desire to have a relationship with His creation. We can have that personal realtionship with Him through Christ. And we can have it freely! Not strings attached. We are here for two reasons: to worship God and to enjoy His creation.

It seems that your initial question has been addressed. Has it not? Regarding reincarnation, when did it start? And why has the overall behavior of humanity not improved over time? Most people don't like to hear this, but we are all inherently evil and have been since the beginning of time. Based on the tenets of reincarnation, shouldn't there be overall improvement in the goodness of people over time? Also, if people live a good life, what's the next highest spiritual level?

CrF

[FROGGY]

Feisty, I have always called myself a Christian, but just very recently have come to know the true meaning of being a christian.
It sounds like you know, or atleast knew the bible very well.
I am curious, do you see more "proof" of reincarnation than that of the bible? This is by no means a slam, I guess I want to know what makes people believe reincarnation over the bible.
This is a great thread, I look forward to the new responses. :applause:

[feisty's wife]

FRroggy, thnx very much for your response, and the other well thought out responses, there is actually quite a bit of evidance for re-incaenation, one researcher was/is Ian Stevenson, a history for cases of re-incarnation he came out with, over 2000 pages of evidance, none of it subjective, all objective, alsi I referred to Carol Bowman's book"Children's Past Live's', this is a fascinATING BOOK, WELL RESEARCHED ALSO, i HIGHLY RECOMMENS IT. oN OF THE TING'S THAT HAS ALWAY'S FRUSTRATED ME IN DEALING WITH cHRISTIAN'S, IS THEIR TOTAL ability to shut off their mind's when they think some idea/teaching contradict's their Bible[sorry about the caps lock, just noticed] folk's, there is a lot of truth out there, not all of it is in the Bible. I also am glad about the way this discussion has gone, there are so many ? , I cannot answerthem all, I do not beleive that a person has to be 'saved', because I no longer think a person can be 'lost', I think they can be confused, but not 'lost', therefore, I cannot beleive that Jesus is God's only provision for salvation.I also do not beleive the Bible to be Gawd's answer to all the question's of the world, there is a lot of truth out there, you just need to be able to recognize it when you see/hear it.I think that we will be very surprized when we cross over, "Hey, I"M not burning after all" Folk's, I have also reAD many account's of those who have had ADE experiances, and most of them talk of a past life review, where they experianced the negative and positive experiances they had caused to other's, with the basic question alway's being"What did you learn from this, and how will this affect your next incarnation.' Anyhow, it'd late, night, all...tite line's...Feisty :dance:

[RvW]

It does seem a bit challenging what you post. I get the impression that your are trying to coerce christians to consider an altertnative to Christ as our lord and savior. I dont need things to lead me to question my faith, as it appears you have done... I seek things to reinforce it.

Ill agree that the chapel does not cater to a specific denomination or religion and I respect that, but with this thread you seem to prefer to address those who dont share your opinion rather than those who do.

If I as a christian did that, would I be violating someones civil rights?