Was it possible?

[Armored Angler]

I am curious to what you think of this question, I have posed it to many people, some agree, some disagree: Was it possible for Jesus to commit sin?

[FROGGY]

I think it was possible for him to sin, but he did not or chose not to sin.

[Ryan Pultz]

I think it was possible for him to sin, but he did not or chose not to sin.



Froggy got it he was human and could sin but led a perfect life rp

[RODACTION]

My wife and I just talked about this. She knows her Bible well. Jesus never did sin ! How did he do that ? :shrug:

[fishonksm]

Not in all of creation could Jesus have sinned. Why would he have come to earth knowing he was going to sin? What would he have accomplished? I make this statement on one fact and that is the trinity. God the father, God the son, God the Holy Sprit. Jesus said that HE and the father are one. So if God is perfect than Jesus would be perfect also and could not sin even if he wanted to. It would go against all the God stands for and against why he came to earth to redeem us back to the father.
Sometimes we ask ourselves the wrong questions about sin. The questions should not be “How for can I go without sinning ?”, but rather “Lord let me do thy will.”

[DAB]

NO

[Armored Angler]

If there was no way for him to be possibly tempted to sin he could not have saved us. There would have been no reason to take human form. If it were not possible for Jesus to sin why did Satan take him to the mountain top and tempt him to sin. He came in human form, as part human he had a chance to be tempted into sin, in human form he had the same propensity to sin as we do,as part of the Trinity he had a chance to save all mankind by following the laws of his father, God. He had to endure the temptations that we as humans endure on a daily basis and never give into sin. He had to show that it was possible to overcome temptation, show us that if we relied on faith we to could be saved by his overcoming temptation and then dying for us as a sinless innocent man. You can bet he was worked over by Satan & his evil angels his whole life. Can you imagine him as a child never getting mad or lying or thinking about himself over others, or imagine him as a teen going through puberty becoming a man who fought all the temptations of life. Think about it.

[rimrock]

A great question you ask AA for this is an important pillar of the Christian faith. Was it possible for Jesus to commit sin: No.

Jesus IS fully human and IS fully God. Like many spiritual truths (i.e. the Trinity) our limited human minds will never full comprehend its depths (Remember we now only see as in a mirror dimly but one day we will know God fully as we are fully known by Him, paraphrase of 1 Cor.13), but we can apprehend what scripture reveals.

Jesus walked the earth fully man to live under and be subject to the Law, and fully God in order to live perfectly to be the perfect sacrifice. Jesus in very nature is God, but laid aside His right as God to individually act upon His divinity by taking on the form of a servant, being found in human likeness. In simpler terms what does that mean? Well, I will liken it to when engineers test materials for their properties of strength they subject them to stresses that far exceed what the materials will ever experience in a building or structure. This is done not to see if they can fail but rather to prove that they cannot. If Jesus was capable of sin at some point under enough temptation He would have; like we do. We no matter how “good” we are in an area of the Law will fail. There is a breaking point. Now image what Jesus must have gone through for scripture says that “we was tempted in everyway, but found to be without sin.” Wow, in everyway to each and every extreme possible. Reflex on our pains which are real and at times feel unbearable and then image what lengths Satan took on Jesus to see if there was a breaking point. No wonder in Psalms it says, “He was a Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.” No, it wasn’t possible for Jesus to sin but He was tested to reaches we will never thankfully know. He truly is worthy of all Honor and Praise!

[letsfish]

rimrock excellent post!!

[Armored Angler]

While I have to disagree with you on my original question, you make a good point. It was possible for him to sin but it was not going to happen. When you said Satan must have went to lengths to try, it brings us again to the point that he would not have bothered had it not been possible to trip Jesus up. Satan being Lucifer the "Covering Angel" the highest of the angels before he was found with iniquity/pride in his heart knew Jesus very very well. He knew as Lord in heaven he was not capable of sin. But when Jesus came to us he was Human and with that everything that came with being human. At that point there was the chance and Satan knew this, that is why he tried hard. The only reason Jesus never sinned was because he knew he could not let it happen, he knew he would be tested like we all are. He could not let his father nor us down. He had more faith than we could ever imagine. And as we have seen in the word of God that faith is very powerful. Faith invites the Holy Spirit into us, and the bible tells us that the Spirit leads us away from sin. Jesus stayed away from temptation and grew in the spirit becoming a wall to sin instead of a limb that bends to the pressure. Jesus shows how human he was when he said father let this cup pass from me except that it is thy will. He knew his death was coming and knew it was to be tortured & painful. At any time he could have saved himself, he was god also. But he knew that was not his mission on earth. It was to give us a way back to the his Father. He truly became the "Scapegoat" for our sins.

[rimrock]

I’m glad to continue our discussion. It is always a healthy thing and leads to growth. I hope I can be an encouragement.

Possibly there is a confusion of terms we need to define in order to be on the same page. There is a great difference between sin and temptation. They are not the same thing. Temptation is an outward influence, where sin is the inward response to the outward temptation. Jesus was tempted in His humanity but without sin because of His divinity. He could not inwardly respond to the outward influence. He is not part man and part god. He is fully Man and fully God. He has two complete natures. This is what scripture reveals. I do not fully comprehend this mystery. How could I, for if I did I would be saying that I fully understand the infinite nature of God.

Did Satan think he could cause Jesus to sin as the God-Man? Possibly, scripture doesn’t say. Satan is a powerful angel yes, but he is a created being. He is not all-knowing or all-powerful maybe he thought he could do something that wasn’t possible. Lets not give Satan too much credit.

The only reason Jesus didn’t sin is because as God He is perfect and incapable. Jesus was pounded with every temptation to the extreme without sin, which only proves His perfection and innocence. Did He sin in the garden? No. Do we see His humanity? Yes. “If there is some other way let this cup pass…” This is not sin but utter despair. A temptation place before Him but without a response to act upon it; therefore no sin.

It is important to understand the nature of Jesus. As fully God He was the only one possible that could have been the perfect sacrifice and as fully Man He sympathizes with us in our failures. He remembers we are mere dust and are so incapable for He went thru the trails and temptations Himself and is the sympatric High Priest who now prays on our behalf.

[Armored Angler]

Scripture does say if you look for it, I have already gave some clues. Your own words show <font color="blue"> </font> he did not give in to sin, but as a human he was capable of sinning. His going through temptation is the core of why he is able to be our saviour. I did not infer that his wanting another way if possible was a sin, I inferred he was feeling human and wished there was a way to save us without the pain &amp; suufering &amp; dying (a human trait),by the thought of death or being cut off rom his father in death and being truly dead for three days. By being tempted and tempted
to sin and showing us that faith will overcome sin,then why come and die on this wretched planet. He could have blotted out Satan and all his minions without ever leaving heaven when Satan rebeled,He could forgive our sins without coming here and enduring what he did. But that would not work, he had to let evil take its course and show itself for what it is. By his faith in his father and the scriptures and his divinity he was able to not give into temptation. He did not want to just tell us the way but show us the way by going through what we have to in our lives then he because he did not give into sin he was able to take the penalty for our sin and be resurrected back to life. We can all pay the cost of sin, but we would not be resurrected to eternal life. If we believe in him, his payment for sins we committed will cover us,Allow us a reward that as sinners we would not deserve.

[rimrock]

As a human He was capable of sinning? No. For AA He is fully Man and fully God. Sometimes as Christians we are guilty of just focusing on Jesus’ divinity – All the attributes of God. And sometimes we just focus on Jesus’ humanity – temptations, He would get tired or thirsty… It is beyond our limited minds, a profound mystery, but both are true and both must be taken together, never separated. We will spend an eternity with Jesus learning of this wonder, for it will take an eternity to fully understand.

Possibly you feel I’m diminishing the temptations Jesus went through because He was incapable of sin. Nothing could be further from the truth. No mere man could have withstood a single moment of His trails. We would have quickly failed. “For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are–yet was without sin (Heb. 4). He sympathizes because He knows we have no hope on our own because it takes a divine nature to pass that only He possesses.

Why did He choose to take human form? Scripture says that, “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin.” Someone HAD to pay the price for God to forgive and it had to be a perfect sacrifice “once for all time.” Only One who is fully God and fully Man could do this. Jesus didn’t show us the way, but gave us the way to eternal life. We will always eventually give into sin that is our nature. Someone had to die for that, either us or a substitute. A day will come when ALL will be raised to eternal life – some whose sins are paid by the substitute and will spend eternity with Him and those who will spend an eternity paying for it themselves in torment because they wound not surrender to the truth. Jesus has chosen us to share this message.

It is my hope this is an encouragement and not a distraction to anyone. Our faith can always be discussed for we have “a reason for the hope that we have. But do this with gentleness and respect.”

[fishonksm]

When you said Satan must have went to lengths to try, it brings us again to the point that he would not have bothered had it not been possible to trip Jesus up.


Satan being the father of lies and a deceiver would try at any length to cause even Jesus to sin. I suggest that because of Satan’s nature he believes his own lies. Satan knows how things are going to come out in the end, Rev 20. Satan knows the scriptures, he quoted them to Jesus in the wilderness, and he tempted Eve in the garden. Satan knows his own out come and is trying to take many with him.
I believe he looked upon Jesus and saw the frailness of his human side and attacked it, but underestimated the strength of the spirituality within Jesus. The word tells to resist the devil and he will flee. How do we resist him? Thru the word of God just as Jesus did. Jesus resisted all his accusers using the word of God.

This discussion is doing wonders for building up MY faith. Let’s keep this going. Kim

[DAB]

RimRock.
You are correct on your explination in the diference between temptation and sin. VERY GOOD POST. :applause: :applause:
DAB

[Armored Angler]

RR,
As a human was he capable of sinning. Yes. Romrock while I agree with a lot of what you have said in regards to sin &amp; temptation, I will adamantly disagree with your answer to the idea I put forth for discussion. He was capable as a human of sinning because he was born into a body capable of sinning but because of his divinity and faith in his father he had the power to resist. The only perfect sacrifice is one who has truly been able to resist, but not as a god, god could always resist anything. As a human he was truly put to the test to show all of creation that he could be born into mankinds frailties and by faith overcome every temptation put to him. If you spend some time researching the old &amp; new testaments you will find enough scripture that says as much.

[rimrock]

AA,

It isn’t a question of being fully human that makes you sinful. It is because of what’s called original sin. God created man perfect and without a sin nature. It was our fall in the garden that caused us to be sinful not because we are human. Therefore if Jesus was born as a man (human) just like the rest of us since the fall He would have had a sin nature and thus would have sinned. Since He was conceived by the Holy Spirit this sin nature was not past on to Him so He would be perfect to be the perfect sacrifice, and born of the virgin Mary in order to be human (Apostles Creed). No sin nature no ability to sin. Just being human is not a problem. Remember at the resurrection we will be given glorified HUMAN bodies. We will always be human. We will be as before the fall but with the presence of evil removed we will never fall into sin again.

I realize this is a rather brief and quick summary of something that none of us can ever fully understand, but I have stated it the best I can as a mere man. I thank you for the time and thought you spend in this discussion. I appreciate the opportunity to explore these mysteries with fellow servants in Christ. :angel:

[Armored Angler]

It is the concept of Original Sin that is part of the backbone of my case, sin is passed along with each successive generation. Jesus could have come down here as the God he is, lived among us and did everything he did when he was among us and he would not have been able save even one of us. He had to show all of creation that he could take on mans frail sinful nature, follow his fathers word (The old Testament) and use it and his faith to resist the temptations we deal with. When he was murdered as a man/god without ever sinning he proved his case to all of creation and bought the right to claim all of us who would follow him, back from Satan who at that time owned and still owns all who have not accepted the Lords gift.

[rimrock]

AA,

Rev 3:21, “To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.”

In understanding this passage of scripture the issue I think your regarding is “overcomes”. In the context you will see that it is overcoming temptation not sin (I earlier spent some time defining the difference – be careful not to interchange them they are very different). Jesus did overcome temptation “in every way, but without sin.”

In the original Greek the word for overcomes in Rev 3:21 is “nikoonti” which means "To him that gains the victory, or is a conqueror". In this passage Jesus is saying that He gained the victory over the world and over the power of the tempter by His death and resurrection. Do we overcome this same thing? Are we as powerful as Jesus? The reward for this - He is exalted to the throne of the universe, which is what is meant by “sat down with my Father on his throne.” Better stated in Phil 2:6-11, “Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”

Did you catch, “Who being in the very nature God”? (I’ll get back to this). This passage in Revelation regarding us is referring to temptation and not to the issue of if Jesus could sin. Also note the first part of the passage, “To him who overcomes.” Now if this passage was talking about sin, it would be saying that you could overcome your own sin. Therefore, who needs a Savior if we can do it? We are called to overcome temptation by the power of the Holy Spirit not sin for in Romans Paul writes, “we are slaves to sin.”

Super long post, sorry. :flowered:

You must wrestle with the idea of what it means to have a sin nature. We have a sin nature therefore we sin not because we’re human. If Jesus had this sin nature He would not only have been capable of sin He WOULD have sinned because sin makes us “slaves” to it. Since Jesus was “in very nature God” He didn’t have a sin nature and thus could not sin (I didn’t say wasn’t tempted). Unless you feel God has a sin nature?

I only take such great lengths on this issue because it is a pillar of Christianity. There are secondary issues like, modes of Baptism, end times positions, understanding of communion, speaking in tongues, new earth vs. old earth creationism… Important, yes, but not a pillar like the nature of God. This we must be clear for “pillar” issues are what Christianity rests on. Comprise the nature of God and it all begins to come tumbling down.

I haven’t been stretched like this in awhile and I hope it didn’t burden anyone. I really appreciate your heart AA, clearly you love the Lord. :angel:

Your friend in Christ, Brad :angel1:

[Armored Angler]

I'm sorry but you can't overcome temptation unless it is possible to be tempted. We are both arguing semantics I agree, but the word is on my side in this case. This is not the only bible passage that points this out. Jesus did not have a sinful nature only because he had the power of his Father &amp; the Word to OVERCOME temptation. As a human being he WAS temptable to sin. You seem to think that I am implying that he in fact sinned when we both know he did not. It is because he was temptable and overcame temptation that he was able to purchase our freedom if we choose to accept it. You cannot overcome something that has no bearing on you. If he was not capable of being tempted to commit sin then there would be no need to overcome the temptation. It is really a simple matter to think about. It is a cornerstone/pillar of salvation I agree,It is the CORE of salvation you cannot have sin without temptation, you cannot have temptation without the devil trying to tempt you to sin. They are not seperable in any way. He was the only one who could not/ would not give in to temptation. It does not in any way say he was not temptable to commit sin. We have the power of Jesus when he acts in our behalf, we can overcome sin with his Holy Spirit filling us with him, with Jesus' power each day we can make the choice to sin or not to sin. Without this power we SIN. We OVERCOME sin by having Jesus guide our lives, by deciding when temptation is presented to follow the way of the lord instead of being overcome by temptation and committing sin. Again I say you are misunderstanding 3:21 "nikoonti" we cannot overcome without Christ, we can with Christ, we can put on the cloak of righteousness (sp)that is the whole reason to follow the lord. Those who say I accept jesus then keep on sinning have not really accepted him. If you accept him you overcome SIN by him, you don't do it overnight, you do it day by day, you falter at times, but you do it. Human likeness is the ability to be tempted to sin. Again Jesus never sinned only because of his faith in the word which came from him, through him, and was in him, What you refer to the text " the very nature of god because he knew first hand his father. He was not going to let us down. You need not "Overcome" the power of the Tempter if the tempter has no power over you. We sin because as we grow we become self aware, we become selfish. Jesus was aware of this but through his divinity &amp; faith he overcame the desire to become a sinner even though being of human flesh he had the ingrained propensity to be tempted to commit sin.
I must say that I have not been challenged like this for all the years I have been teaching and am very glad for you to keep this going. Most people are happy to accept what their pastors tell them instead of thinking on their own. Only through discussion &amp; fellowship can we learn anything. :argue:
We both may wholeheartedly disagree with each other, but I feel a kinship to you RR because you are willing to speak your heart. Yours in our lord Jesus, AA

[rimrock]

I like your squabble guys :argue:

You are very much of the Word and it has been EXTREMELY enriching for me to be in this discussion with you. There is no doubt in my mind of your faithfulness and your desire in seeking the Lord. It is a credit to the cause of Christ when two followers can disagree each make good points and yet come away from it as friends. Only in true Christianity does this every happen. Other faiths fracture and become embittered, but I feel this has demonstrated that when both “set their eyes upon Jesus” true growth and fellowship occurs.

Thanks again for taking the time to share your wisdom you have been an encouragement to me.

Yours in Christ. :angel:

[letsfish]

[quote]
I like your squabble guys :argue:

You are very much of the Word and it has been EXTREMELY enriching for me to be in this discussion with you. There is no doubt in my mind of your faithfulness and your desire in seeking the Lord. It is a credit to the cause of Christ when two followers can disagree each make good points and yet come away from it as friends. Only in true Christianity does this every happen. Other faiths fracture and become embittered, but I feel this has demonstrated that when both “set their eyes upon Jesus” true growth and fellowship occurs.

Thanks again for taking the time to share your wisdom you have been an encouragement to me.

Yours in Christ. :angel: [/quote
Ditto!! Your discussions have been very deep and thought provoking. thanks for the great effort. Maybe required reading for Christology 101.
Frankly, I think you are on the same page. It is incredible how this question has such deep repercussions. Rather, it is incredible how the divinity of Christ has such deep repercussions!
thanks again guys!!!

[REEL TIME]

RR/AA you guys have made some interesting points, all along the same line of thinking. I have been intrigued by it all, but I think that you two kinda been splitting hairs over the matter. If you guys take your walk deeply, great. I just think some times some take it too deep and miss the finer points.
I try to keep my walk with the lord simple. To much human thinking just gets in the way. I mean I don't care what kind of glue God used to hold the atoms together. I'm just glad they stay put. I'm also grateful that Jesus resisted the temptation to sin. Yes, I believe that Jesus was God, but when he came to earth I believe he was human first with all the human traits including being born into sin.
John 1 says that in the beginning was the word, and the word was God, and the word was with God. I believe that is was with the knowledge of the word that Jesus in human form resisted the devil, resisted temptation and the devil fled. Jesus could not have sinned at anytime while on the earth as well. It wasn't with special powers the Jesus overcame his trials or the fact that he was God, but it was by his knowledge of the word that Jesus refused to sin.

I do look forward to more talks with you guys. Hopefully we could learn some things from each other. :applause: :applause:

Love in Christ, Scott

[Salmon Stryker]

:applause: :applause: :applause:

Reminds me of a while back when my wife an I were having a discussion...okay an argument and my 5 year old daughter says "STOP your both right." :grin:

[happybrew]

I realize it's been a long time since this topic was active, but every now and then it has emerged from the back of my mind to bug me. I finally figured out what was bugging me about it.

According to Scripture, sin is slavery, and slavery is slavery to sin. Jesus came to proclaim liberty to captives, not in the political sense as so many of his contemporaries expected, but in the spiritual sense, by freeing those who were slaves to sin.

A slave cannot exercise his own will. A slave cannot free himself, or another slave. Nowhere in Scripture do we see a slave freeing himself. We do see numerous instances of slaves being freed by others, beginning in Genesis when Abraham freed Lot's relatives who had been captured in battle. Incidentally, this is a wonderful foreshadowing of Jesus' sacrifice, as part of the offering for freedom of the captives involved the offering of bread and wine to God by Melchisedek in Salem, later to be Jerusalem (New Salem), thereby anticipating the Last Supper and Jesus offering of himself for the freedom of captives. But I digress from my argument.

If Jesus came to free the captives, He could not Himself be a captive. Thus, Jesus did not, and could not sin. We know that He did not because we know that He did offer his life for the salvation of sinners. We know that he could not sin, because if it were possible for him to sin, it would thereby be possible for him to be a captive himself, and thus be unable to save us. If Jesus could possibly be unable to save us, then God could potentially be a liar for promising us a Savior in the Old Testament while being unable to deliver on that promise. But God could not be a liar, and therefore, Jesus could not sin.

God Bless!

happybrew

[Chromaflage]

From what I know, Rimrock has nailed it. Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and, therefore was not born into sin as we are. The notion that Christ was capable of sinning suggests a change in the his Godly essesnce. Today, Christ is not able to sin and he still exists as he did when he walked on the earth. God is incapable of sin - the father, son and holy spirit are collectively God. How can one essence of the trinity contradict the others? If Christ was capable of sinning, then God the father took a huge risk in sending him our way. God's plan was a perfect saccrifice for sins of humanity. So, prophetically, Christ was to live to fulfill the law to its fullest.

A good read on the subject is included in a book entitled "Vital Christology Issues" by Roy Zuck.

What has come to my mind on numerous occassions is that, as a human, Christ was tempted in every way we all are. Tempted, as in being presented with an opportunity to not fulfill God's law. Christ never internalized such temptations as to act on them outwardly, for he would have contradicted himself. The temptations presented to Christ, as his ability not to sucumb to them, were testimonies to his divine nature. I truly believe that these things were more for our benefit, illustrating to us that Christ was a perfect, sinless man.

Another thing I find interesting is that the Bible does not indicate that Christ was tempted by lust or even address any romantic relationships or temptations of such relationships. I'd be curious to see what Rimrock might have on that issue. (let's leave the DiVinci Code out of this for now though :wink: )

God Bless!

CrF

[rimrock]

What has come to my mind on numerous occassions is that, as a human, Christ was tempted in every way we all are. Tempted, as in being presented with an opportunity to not fulfill God's law. Christ never internalized such temptations as to act on them. The temptations presented to Christ, as his ability not to sucumb to them, were testimonies to his divine nature.


That’s a really good summary, since you’re addressing the two natures of Jesus as fully man and fully God. It’s a difficult notion, but this is what Scripture reveals.

I also agree with happybrew that sin is slavery. The power of sin would have overcome Jesus if He was capable of sinning as it does with us, but as pointed out since Jesus is fully God; God is incapable of sin.


Another thing I find interesting is that the Bible does not indicate that Christ was tempted by lust or even address any romantic relationships or temptations of such relationships. I'd be curious to see what Rimrock might have on that issue. (let's leave the DiVinci Code out of this for now though )



OK no DV Code – we can definitely agree it’s a terrible work of literature.

You’re also correct in stating the Bible does not directly illustrate a temptation that Christ faced regarding lust or inappropriate relationships. With that said the Bible is quite clear on the greater revelation we can draw from, “For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.” (Hebrews 4:15-16).

A great verse to memorize! In this verse we see that Jesus was “tempted in every way.” And everyway definitely means everyway, including sexual lust no doubt. I could flush this out further if you or anyone desires, and what it means for us that Jesus was tempted in every way, just as we are–yet was without sin.

The simple answer is yes! Jesus was tempted by lust.