Steering torque question

[Bait O' Eggs]

I have had the new boat out twice now, :hoboy: and each time I have a distict difference in the amount of force required to turn the wheel left or right.

I was told with hydraulic steering I would not notice the effect of the torque on the steering. :shrug: My single outboard Honda 225 counter rotator motor likes to turn to the left, and takes a couple more pounds of force to turn to the right. :whazzup: :whazzup:

The first trip out, the steering would almost feel like it wanted to stick when you would turn to the right, and once you moved it a tad it would turn easier. We noticed a bubble in the hydraulic line between the first and second steering station moving back and forth (one line is clear). The second trip out the bubble has appeared to worked its way out as it was not visible. The bubble was almost to the upper steering station where a breather is.

I noticed what I assume to be the torque in both steering stations.

Do I maybe have a problem with my steering, or will I feel the effect of the motor torque in my hydraulic steering?

Maybe the system has a bubble in it somewhere? maybe something else????? :shrug:

[Hoosier Daddy]

I've put many hours in on a boat with hydraulic steering and never noticed a bit of torque. This boat had two outboards, one counterrotating, so may not have shown torque anyway. Dunno if you can count this as a no vote or not.......

[Keta]

There is a fin on the underside of the anti cavatation plate and in front of the spinny thingy that you can adjust to counter the prop torque.

[Bait O' Eggs]

I am aware of the fin on the plate you describe near the un-spinny thing (I spin the other way :wink: ).

I also got a second plate with the motor that could replace the plate with a fin, that has no fin at all on it :bigshock: :bigshock: I guess it is for running shallow water :rolleyes: :wink:

I was just under the impression, the hydraulic steering would make all that torque feeling go away in the wheel. :shrug:

[WaterDog]

You probably got the wrong model. You needed the special LD-25CR (Counter Rotation). See, since most props spin to the right, the hydraulics compensate for the right hand rotation. Since you got a backwards motor, the system is not compensating for the correct spin. Who puts a backward motor on a boat? :shrug: So you'll need to special order the CR system. I can get one for you, but since they are "special" it's going to cost.

The other thing to do is put a right hand prop on and just run it in reverse to go forward. :idea: That should take care of it. Should work well with the existing control set up you have now.

Hope this helps. :tongue:

:smirk:

[Nalu]

Waterdog--- :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

BOE- I'd say that more than likely you still have and air in the line somewhere. I'm assuming you have a Sea-Star hydraulic steering unit? These things can take a while to purge. Bleed, bleed, and re-bleed.

As you know I have twins, but for tuna fishing I only ran one motor. No steering torque at all. At one point this summer, I even had the trim skeg fall off my starboard motor, and I only noticed it when pullinng the boat out to fuel.

When I bough the boat the steering was extremely difficult. I ended tearing the entire hydraulic steering system apart. Turns out is was nothing more than a bushing on the helm, and had nothing to do with the pump or cylinder.

If you are feeling "notches" or "bumps" as you turn the wheel, that is what I have noticed as the fluid ran a little low, and air was in the system.

[Rescue3]

BOE:

Good to meet you (even briefly) at the boat show.

The issue sounds to be air bubble related to me. In my experience, you should feel no torque at either helm station with a properly bled hydraulic set up. In my manual it says to turn the wheel to one side, top up the reservoir, and then turn to the other side. Top up again as needed and repeat. Eventually you'll work the air out of the lines and have smooth steering for the rest of your days.

If, as others have mentioned, you feel rubbing, pinching, or other mechanical sensations, then there's another problem to look into. None of these should be showing up in your steering either.

[U fish I catch]

Running the boat in reverse a a terrible idea. Please don't try it. The gears in the lower unit are machined in a way making them stronger running forward. Since on a percentage basis revers is used very little the gears do not need to be as strong in that direction.

[Keta]

U fish,
Are you sure? The lower units I've worked on were all straight tooth bevel gears. Now I could be wrong and if I am let me know.

[STGRule]

Having run the 26" dual engine boat with only one motor I have never had a pull or hesitation in either direction from either motor.

IFIC: I don't know if it's different in an outboard, but on our Volvo-Penta outdrive we have switched to a counter rotation spinny thingy (when we couldn't get a right-rotation spinny thingy) and just switched out the side that the shifter attaches and essentially ran it in reverse. We did this at the suggestion of the mechanic. He said it would just even out the wear on the lower unit gears and we never had a problem. And we ran the boat for 200-400 hours a year going back and forth.

[U fish I catch]

I'm not completely sure. I don't know if every engine uses the same type of gears. I'm trying to find out for sure for that particular engine. But I'd rather be safe than sorry. hehehe

[Keta]

U fish,
Let me know. Thanks.

[Kamalot]

BOE,

I don't believe the Counter Rotating Motor has anything to do with the torque problem. I also run a Counter Rotating Single 225 Yamaha, and my boat builder did not know I was going to run Counter Rotating when the Hydrolic Steering System was installed and mine works fine!

I had my choice between Regular and Counter Rotating, and an OB Mechanic I know informed me that the Counter Rotating Motor actually puts out slightly less vibration, due to the natual motor torque being offset some by the Counter Rotating Shaft!

Cory :shrug:

[Rescue3]

Running the boat in reverse a a terrible idea. Please don't try it. The gears in the lower unit are machined in a way making them stronger running forward. Since on a percentage basis reverse is used very little the gears do not need to be as strong in that direction.



I know that this is not strictly correct, though it may be true on some lower units/outboards. Many counter rotating models of both versions do simply run in reverse by design. Again, I can't speak for this particular application and a call to a qualified mechanic would be the best way to get to the bottom of it.

In any case, I would be surprised if this were the source of the steering torque.

[hardwood]

BOE, I have a fairly new boat also (Honda 225 standard spin), and I have the same problem. Mine is a little harder to the left than it is to the right. This seems to be most noticable just before the boat jumps up on plane. I think the high torque just before plane is my problem, the motor wants to turn the opposite direction of rotation easy, and a little hader into it. The anti-feedback of the steering feels like it helps more in one direction than the other. I dont know if this makes any sense but its hard to explain. After plane, the motor turns easy both ways, as well as under no power. Please let me know if you find a solution to this.

[Nalu]

I understand the frustration with steering torque. The torque on my steering was very poor when I got the boat, so I went step by step disconnecting everything until I finally found out that it WASN'T the pump or cylinder at all.

The case might be different for both BOE and Hardwood, and it could be the system, but after all my discussions with Sea-Star directly, I find it hard to believe that engine torque has ANYTHING to do with it.

This is a hydraulic system, and all your wheel is doing is turning a hydraulic pump in the helm. That pump is capable of exerting enough force to bend steel steering rods without feeling much resistance in the wheel. Steering torque is so minimal by comparison that you really shouldn't be able to feel it.

I'd look again for a true bind in the system, or air bubbles. If that fails, then perhaps look at the pump itself. Properly bled, and bind free, you're not going to find any steering torque at all.

For what it's worth. I ended up disconnecting both motors, removing the cylinder from the motor connections, disconnecting hydraulic lines, and removing the tilt helm before I finally found that the problem on mine was a $.99 plastic bushing that had warped on the tilt helm mechanism.

[U fish I catch]

I did some research, and from what I've gathered, these particular motors do have spiral cut gears. From what I know about spiral cut gears, I wouldn't run them in reverse. At least untill I contacted honda, and found out for sure. :smile:

[Bait O' Eggs]

Yesterday I bled the steering system from the higher steering station (rear station) to the bleeder valves at the motor.

I didnt want to unscrew the cap at the front steering station to add more fluid as it pushes thru the system as it is lower than the rear steering station which has a breather on the plug, I figured if I unscrewed the plug at the front (lower) station I would have hydraulic fluid gushing out all over until the fluid was level with the fill cap. :shrug:

Today I took the boat for a test ride, and from the rear station, the turning is smooth as silk both left and right. :yay: I guess I have all the air bubbles out of the line from this station to the motor.

The front steering wheel is a different story :depressed: Still very hard to the right, fairly smooth to the left. I am hoping it is just air in the line and I can get it bled out this week. Going to try and bleed from the front station to the motor and hope it gets better.

Other than that all worked well today, ran the boat another 60 miles. Wish my new tach would arrive, not having a tach makes for a big hole in the dash :wink:

[Bait O' Eggs]

Just an update for those that may have the same problem and do a search and find this thread.

I have bled the system several times and I keep getting a distinct hard turn to the right at the lower front steering station.

Bleeding the system again with a different sequence has solved the problem. :shrug:

There are 3 hydraulic hoses off each station, there are the 2 pressure hoses that run from the front station to the motor with 2 hoses from the rear steering station T'ing into the side of them mid boat. The third hose is a clear tubing that tie the 2 stations together. I can see the fluid in this hose and it certainly isnt a pressure hose.

After bleeding the front steering station which is lower than the rear station the fluid in the clear hose drops down to the elevation of the front station. When I go to the rear station, if I bleed the "turn left" hose first it pushes the air in the clear hose towards the front station making it what seems impossible to get out of the system, when I bleed the "turn right" hose first the air gets pushed up into the rear steering station and out of the system.

While watching the air in the clear hose move to me, or away from me while working the rear station I finally figured it must make a difference which hose you bleed first. :shrug: Anyway, when I did it a certain way the problem went away.

New tach arrived today which should be the only issue I have left to resolve in the new boat, I hope it works better than the original one Honda gave me :help: Installing it tonight. :yay: