Sea Runs

[Abalone]

Fly Fisherman magazine has an article this month on Puget sound Sea Runs. I haven't finished reading it yet but.

There's a lot of mystery about these fish. I am always looking for new material on this subject. Frank Amato produced a book once but it is out of print. So I am wondering a lot of these about these Beautiful creatures.

For one thing ! When the Sea Runs that live in the Oregon Streams go to sea, where do they go ? Do the Kilches SeaRuns and the Wilson SeaRuns go to Tillamook bay and hunt the shore line or do they go all the way to the Ocean ?

Have studies been done ?

Has anyone ever caught a Searun Cutt in the bay or Ocean ?

Could the same techniques for the Puget Sound area be applied to Tillamook Bay, Siletz bay etc. ?

The fish in our locals waters are: There at Native Cutts and there are Searun Cutts and there are resident Cutts.
I am used to seeing Searuns that are big with yellow throats or bellies. So how do you tell a Resident or Native Cutthroat of the Non -go to Sea type from the resident Searun Cutthroat ? Are all those smaller cutts in the trask Searuns or are they Native Cutthroat.

To me Native means they don't ever go to Sea.

If anyone knows of any books or articles on the subject of Oregon Cutthroat populations I would sure like to read them.

[lilnorthfork]

I believe there are 2 types of cutthroat trout in Oregon waters. 1. Westslope Cutts which are not common and are found east of the hills. 2. Coastal cutts, which you are referring to. Of the coastal cutts, some are resident and some are anadromous; they are what we call Sea Run Cutthroat. As far as being mysterious, yes they are. There is not one solitary migratory season or pattern but several. Some migrate in the late winter, others in the late summer, others throughout the year. Some travel as far into the same small streams as steelhead while others never leave the estuaries. From 1948 to 1995 Coastal Cutts were stocked in the Wilson and Trask rivers (as many as 23k/yr) and in the Nestucca (as many as 46k/yr). Because of the diverse habits of the Oregon Coastal Cutts, ODFW does not have an accurate picture of the fishery's health (in the words of a Fisheries Biologist from the Tillamook District, not mine)... that alone made the consideration of a retention program absurd (my opinion, not ODFW's).
For an interesting read, you might consider contacting ODFW and getting a copy of their report titled "Biology, Status and Management of Coastal Cutthroat Trout on the North Oregon Coast."... I believe it is referred to as the "White Paper". The paper was intended to be a summary of the fishery in the North Coast Watershed District as related to the retention proposal. It has been my experience that the biologists who work on programs like this are quite enthusiastic about discussing the fishery with the public. If you'd like, pm me for the name and phone number of the biologist I spoke with. That's my story and I'm stickin to it. :cool: lnf

[mandinga]

Sorry, these are the only cutthroat I know how to catch.



http://www.wescraigs.net/PyramidLake/pllc12-03-0412lb.jpg


Pyramid lake Lahontan cutts... :shrug:

[Riverkeeper]

Actually, Lahontans are native to a few rivers in extreme SE oregon. Not many left, but there are a few populations in some small rivers down there.

[Abalone]

I heard that someone planted Gold fish in Mann lake and ODFW is thinking about Poisoning the lake to get rid of them.

What's wrong with some people ?

[mandinga]

Riverkeeper...

Ever caught a lahontan? I thought there might be a few scattered throughout oregon. Did you know that the ony true lahontan strain is in some stream in colorado, that is what i have been told anyway. It is a hotly debated subject where I am from.


FYI the world record cutt was taken out of the same lake that the one in the picture i posted was in...Pyramid. 40+lbs. :bigshock: :bigshock: :bigshock:

[tbird]

There is a lake near where I live in Wa, that has lahottans in it and they are big. The last state record caught out of here was 18 lbs but I have seen bigger cruising the shores when they spawn in the spring. People from all over come here to fish in the spring, however I cant say much for the fight or the table fair. :cheers:

[Riverkeeper]

I have some literature on them at home that I'll check on tonight. As I understand it, 25000 years ago the great basin region was a huge lake called....... Lake Lahontan. Lahontan cutts evolved in the lake, and when conditions changed and water levels dropped, all of these little sattelite populations were left in the various lakes and rivers that eventually evolved to be unique in different ways. Most of those strains are extinct due to habitat loss and introductions of non native fish (browns and rainbows). One called the Alvord trout remains in a few small streams in SE oregon. If I remember correctly the fish in Pyramid lake got to 70 lbs and were very numerous. Then a dam was built on the Truckee river (the only spawning river that feeds pyramid lake) and the entire run was wiped out. I believe all the fish in Pyramid now are raised in a hatchery by the Paiute tribe.

I'm not sure if the fish in Mann lake are natural, I think they may be stocked by ODFW. I have been there but never fished it, and never caught a lahontan anywhere else. It's on my list though.

[Slow and Low]

Tbirds right.

Picture fish only those Lahontans. I don't know about Lake Lanore but Mann is not doing well the last few years.

Back to the subject.
There was a book published recently by a local named Les Johnson, Fly Fishing for Coastal Cuthroat Trout. I met the guy and he is supposed to be the authority on the subject. Sea Runs are a big deal up here, not sure why. Guess I'll have to give it a try next year. If you want to know more about this book send me a PM.

[mandinga]

Keeper-


You are right about the dam being built on the truckee destroying all spawning prospects for the cutts. The dam is called derby damn...and i mean damn. They are building a diversion for the fish as we speak, but completion is still far off and the results aren't guaranteed. Some people think that diverting the fish around Derby Dam will make the fish return to their once great form...there are many advocates that say that there is not a chance of that happening. IMO if and thats a big if it did happen it would be far into the future 20+ years.

You are also right about the fish being raised by the paiutes(sp?) they run everything out there. You have to buy a special pyramid lake only fishing license that runs $56 last i checked, and pyramid is closed for 6 months per year. People come from all around the world to fish pyramid.

In march and april you can go to the hatchery and watch the 20 pounders swim up the ladder. They have pictures at the marina of fish caught back in the 60's and 70's...stringers of 40-80 pounders...



Imagine this if you can...this is a description of how people fish pyramid.


5-15 degrees outside, wind howling usually, snow coming down. Fly fisherman line a very famous sandbar(100+ fisherman everyday), not shoulder to shoulder, but about 10-15 yards apart. Big waves pounding the fisherman. Flinging shooting heads with mono running line as far as they can. Slow to fast stripping wooly worms and beetles back to their ladders. Oh yeah, every single person is standing on a ladder of some sort to keep their legs out of the freezing water...when i say freezing i mean FREEZING, about every 2 casts you have to stop and get the ice out of the eyelets on your rod. And some people LIVE FOR PYRAMID!

I fished pyramid hard for 15 years, january to march I would be one of the first guys to the sandbar, standing in the dark trying not to get frostbit.

I have caught my fair share of 10+ pounders and I can honestly say that they dont even fight compared to a metalhead...they will go on one long run and then sit on the bottom and get dragged in...sluggish.

If anyone ever plans a trip to pyramid please PM me first.

[LurkerDave]

As LNF said, the coastal cutts have a variety of run timing and life history strategies that can be confusing (especially when you are expecting them in a given place and time). From anadromy to resident forms with lots of crossover. Some research, funded by the Corps of Engineers being done by the FWS, where fish in Abernathy Creek are marked on their way to the Columbia has so far shown that they blow right through the main Columbia out to the "plume" (area where the Columbia river water meets the ocean) in just a couple days, spending very little time in the river.

My understanding is the general thought is that the anadromous fish head out to the estuaries, bays and nearshore pacific during the summer, but a few fish have been caught farther offshore in trawls.

I really want to go putt around T-Bay next summer in my boat and cast a "shrimpy" fly to the old pile dikes and oyster beds and see what I can turn up. :smile:

[deefly]

I have to say I agree with all I have read above. Ive been pursuing searuns in Oregon for the past 25yrs. They are certainly a mystery at times, but always a thrill on the fly. By way of a shrimpy fly: I use an Orange or gold and guinee Dee fly with white wings of goose or Turkey, and really nail the fish. However, dry flys and muddlers are also quite effective. As for the bay, (tillamook) Ive seen a few cutts just lazing around the oyster beds under 101 out of Bay City. Marvelous fish. Lets take care of them!
:bowdown:

[Stew]

Marvelous fish. Lets take care of them!



Amen to that :cheers: I think the coastal cutts in the Tillamook Bay tribs are an untapped source of fly fishing fun. I have had great success on them the last couple of years and very rarely see anyone else fly fishing for them.
The ODFW, in it's infinite wisdom, proposed opening the north coast streams to a two fish a day, eight inch minimum length harvest for 2005 :hoboy:
Their argument was that the populations had recovered enough to allow this and they anticipated little actual impact on the fish. Their presentation at a town hall type meeting in Tillamook was laughable and easy to shoot holes in. The ODFW based their study and opinion on very limited data and when pressed about it they actually admitted they really had no way to accurately estimate populations. It was also pointed out that the closeness to a major population center would increase pressure on these fish. The eight inch minimum harvest size would also have an impact on down stream migrating salmon and steelhead smolt.
Thankfully the ODFW saw the error of their way and rejected the proposal.

[PittsburghD]

Excellent ?'s Abby.

Les Johnson's book; which I studied one year in the "special place" for the entire non-season; is not a good answer to these questions; he may be a great guy and an amazing authority, but this book won't answer the total questions. Check LNF's ref.

Also, after reading Les' book I took a run at the Siletz Bay tidewater hoping for something amongst all the salmon trollers at the end of Oct. Nada. I tried a lot of flies too. It might have been the fancy pontoon boat or the wrong tide, or time of day. Who knows? My favorite fish to hunt so far though.


--D
:grin:

[deefly]

Pittsburgh: I read Lesters book some time ago and then met him at the Eugene fest on Spring. I was especially intrigued by his mention of using snelled flies and accidentally catching the brutes! May I suggest you try something that looks like a fish or crawdad? I worked some of the creeks in that area and had a great time. I recall using a crawdad spey fly. Some old man came up to me as I was deploying the pontoon and was interested in what I was using. I showed him and he grunted his approval. Off I went, and hammered away! You know, theres a lot to be said for the old reliable Royal Coachman too!
Good luck! :smash:

[Abalone]

I am glad I started this thread.
This months edition of Flyfisherman has a good article on Puget Sound Cutts. I bought a copy of Les Johnsons book.
I knew there was such a book but Frank Amatto Told me it was out of print. There is a new book just out. The Title is " Fly fishing the Coastal Cutthroat Trout "

This is a more appropriate name for these fish as they have four distinct behaviours. Searun only being one of them. All the cutts you catch on the Coastal streams are one in the same fish EXCEPT. The species varies slightly from River to River.

So why the intrique ? I did call the Biologist the L.F. referred me to and he is right. The Biologist is a Resource. He told me much in the Five minutes we talked.

How about Searun Coastal Cutthroats in the Four or Five pound range ?

They are out there and they are in our rivers, the Nestucca, Wilson, Nehalem and just about every creek that flow into the sea.

These fish are a very complex Species. Personally I have seen Cutts that would easily go Three pounds. I have seen them under the brush in small schools with other smaller fish on the Nestucca Tide water. Last fall I had a terrific day on the upper Silets and the biggest fish I landed was 18 inches.

I believe the Coastal Cutts are very much under utilized.
But I am not telling everybody about it. I believe the few of us on IFISH that fly fish isn't enough to flood our streams to the point where it will crowd the streams and I wouldn'd mind fishing next to any of you anyhow as I know you care about the fishing as much as I do and you know how to act out there. But if you look at the hundreds of miles of Streams on the coast and consider all those fish, there must be plenty of Trophy Cutts available ? Where are they and how do you catch them is the big question.

[Abalone]

What is the largest Sized Coastal Cutthroat you have ever seen or caught. For now I am going to say my Biggest was Twenty inches but that was up in Canada. But surely that fish on the Siletz was my biggest in Oregon and that was at least Eighteen. The best part is I caught more then one. On my four weight they feel like mini Steelhead.

Go buy the book, it is well worth it.

BTW Mann lake is the Lahontan hatchery for the rest of the State. If idiots don't stop abusing it like the ones that planted Gold Fish they will close it for good. Mann lake is a long drive, The wilson is much closer.

[Two Fister]

Abalone,
People were using the gold fish as illegal live bait. I believe that they caught a shop in Burns selling them as "pets" all the while knowing that people were using them as bait. Unfortunately, they are in a lot of the lakes in SE Oregon.

Lahontans are a totally separate species than coastal sea runs with the exception of some possible very distant genetics. Riverkeeper has their lineage and evolution nailed.

I've never caught a sea run cutt larger than around 10". Beautiful fish that I'd like to spend more time chasing. As I've found it hard to get over to the coast lately to chase salmon and steelhead, chances are not too good of changing that any time soon.

Good luck and post some pictures of some nice Bluebacks!
TF

[Abalone]

From a Seattle Times article. Washington State record is
6 lbs.

What makes sea-runs so interesting is that while they strike flies, spoons, spinners and nightcrawlers aggressively, you first must search the river to find the schools, and they seem to have a knack for slipping the hook and getting away.

"Once you get dialed in on them," Kraemer says," it's a very rewarding fishery; it's an exquisite fishery. You could argue that it's a world-class trout fishery, although you don't get real big fish." The state record sea-run weighed 6 pounds, but they average 14 to 18 inches and 1 to 2 pounds at maturity.

[Abalone]

I find it hard to believe that someone could mistake a Steelhead for a Searun but I guess it happens. They think they caught a five pound Summer Steelhead but it is actually a Cutthroat.

[Siwash]

My biggest cutt on a fly, when I was actually trying for them, is only about 10", but i've gotten several on hardware while targeting salmon/steelhead that were in the 18" ballpark. I've also gotten a few runty (21-22") early-winter "steelhead" years ago that didn't look quite right. In hindsight, I realize they were probably really big sea runs instead. A bit of a shame, as I would have appreciated them more if I'd known that at the time (but then that's true of a lot of things, right?). Even now that I have a better idea what I'm looking for, though, the key markings can be pretty faint on a really bright one, and I'd rather just get it unhooked and on its way quickly than fumble around handling it longer in order to examine it more closely.

I've also gotten some Rocky Mtn cutts before, and except for the characteristic throat slash markings, they look like a completely different species. From all the ones i've seen, the coastal cutts and rainbows appear more alike than the 2 different cutthroat strains.

[drift c]

In oregon I believe the sea-run record is 7lbs, and while bright, sea-runs can be hard to distinguish, but the key "cut" on the bottom of the throat gives it away to me. However, this might not be apparent to an unexspirenced angler who hooks into one. The situation reminds me of Chinook and Coho being confused...its apparent now, but when you were beginning did it seem as much so?
:shrug:
my .02

[Abalone]

A couple Of things I learned new in the Les Johnson book.

Steelhead and Cutthroats have been documented cross breeding.

Dudley Nelson: ODFW retired told me this weekend that he was checking a guy down on the Alsea. He asked him if he had any fish and the guy told him he tagged a Steelhead.
( This was years ago of course ). He checked the guy tag and then looked inside his Gunny Sack and almost fell over when he say a SeaRun Cutt that he estimated to be over Six pounds.

The largest Record fish in Oregon that I have found documented is Six pounds.

The point is: They are out there and with the marotitoriam
on Cutts I am thinking that there must be a few in our North Coast streams.

[onebadfish]

abalone,
in december of 1980, i caught a searun cutt (blueback) that was about 6 pounds. i nailed it upstream about a mile from devils elbow (cape creek - lane county). i used to fish there all the time. silvers, small chinook, steelhead, bluebacks, the place was great. i think that little creek is closed now, what a great place it was.

[dirtyCut]

What a fish. Not much for a fight though- last fall chasing steelies I managed to land aprox a 10-12 lber on the siletz, upper canyon. c&r a few steelhead, then hooked up again, pretty sluggish battle I was thinking. the fish came in, got a good look at it (as it did me) then bolted to the bottom of this hole kinda chinook-like. finally got it in, WOW! the colors where beautiful. none the less, shot a pic, released it and showed the pic to a buddy, showed it to one of the guys who had worked out on the trap on the siletz, thought it may have been a cross breed steelhead/sea-run. pretty fish!
http://www.ifish.net/gallery/data/500/medium/3009fat-sea-run-cutthroat-rw.jpg

KC

[Abalone]

10 or 12 lbs. Wow, that would definatly be one for the record book....

I am not the type to have a fish mounted but a 10 lb SeaRun cutt would be tempting... I wouldn't kill it but I would have a cast made.. Fantastic story. Thanks...

[Riverkeeper]

:shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

That is an amazing fish. It looks like a cross between a cutt and a brookie, with a smattering of brown trout mixed in. If it is in fact a native cutt, then it really is a lifetime acheivement. :applause:

[Abalone]

It's a Sea Run. Cross bred or not I would call it a Sea Run Cutt and I believe as a result of the Moritorium we will see more of these bigger fish. Albiet the Siletz is not protected. Cutts do stay from river to river....

Thank you for sharing that story....

Anything over 20 inches is considered a trophy..
It's kind of interesting that they didn't fight hard. I agree they aren't as scrappy as a D.R. redside but,, with my 4 wt. last summer the bigger fish fought well. If I am into the 10 to 12 inch fish I use a 3 wt. rod.....

[mandinga]

that is a very strange looking fish...i have seen cutt-bows and cutt-brookies that looked NOTHING like that...it's cutt huge...way too big to be a cutt/bow/brookie...IMO..


what the heck is it?

[KillerDave]

It's a Chinook. They can get some really cool colors and spot patterns when they bronze up in the fall.

[mandinga]

dave...i think you are right...jack maybe?

[Abalone]

I would be courious to know if the Red marks were under the gills ?? If the red slashes are there it would mean it was definatly a Sea Run Cutthroat. Steelhead Cross or not..

[KillerDave]

I can't tell if it's a jack or not. Most of the Chinook Jack's I've caught have been much smaller-usually in the 16 to 20 inch range. It really looks like an older Spring Chinook to me.

[Riverkeeper]

It does look chinook like in that the anal fin is wider at the base than the dorsal fin. But I have never seen a chinook with spots like that.

[Abalone]

http://www.ifish.net/gallery/data/500/medium/3974cutt.jpg

Looks like a Cutt to me.

When I talked to ODFW they told me that they see big fish like this when they do a Stream check when they swim the river with Dive gear.. ''

Just the same... Were the red Slashes on the throat ?

[onebadfish]

looks like a cutthroat, but doesn't look like any of the sea runs i've caught in the past. they all were just about as silver as a steelhead with just a few peanuts left on the upper body and slashes under the gills. the fight sounded like a searun cutt ... they do some weird death rolls, convulsion like shaking movements, and other bizarre stuff. who said that looks like a chinook? you can see the gums are obviously white, and the fins are different proportions...

[mandinga]

Abalone...Maybe it's just my computer screen, but I am not seeing any red on the gills. If there is some flame on the gills it's probably not a chinook.


Dave, I have seen some jacks this big...or close to that big.


The spots on the back look like a salmon to me, and just the overall coloring of the fish seems to lean towards a salmon...hmmmmmmmmmmm...

[LurkerDave]

The color and heavy spotting look pretty sea run to me, even though those streaky spots on the back almost look brooky like? I posted this picture below before but its a pretty typical looking fall Trask cutt. Most of the ones I've caught (a few have been steelie bright) have that bronze color to them and the throat slashes I've seen usually seem less extensive than those on the various inland species/subspecies. They're also more of a rose red rather than flame orange.


http://www.ifish.net/gallery/data/500/medium/4895TraskCutt.jpg

I worked with a Forest Service fish biologist down on the Siskiyou NF for a while and they did annual snorkel surveys in some of those south coast rivers (Coquile etc.) and he said every now and then they found big (estimated up to 10ish pounds) cutts. I asked if they could be steelieXcutt hybrids but they didn't know for sure.

Nice fish all the same. I'd love to have seen it in person :shocked:

[SilverFly]

Cool looking fish, thanks for posting!

To me it looks like a nook. It has a lot of large irregular spots. Both steelhead and cutthroat only have round spots. It also doesn't look like the maxillary bone extends far enough past the eye to be a cutt, but it's hard to tell in that view. Not sure about the black gumline feature, I thought it was in inside of the gums that mattered (probably wrong). One way to tell for sure would be to count the anal fin rays which are easy to see, but I'll have to look that up.

Now, if only digital cameras recorded smells and could transmit them over the internet, - then I would know for sure if it was a nook!

-----------------------------------------------

[SilverFly]

Got bored and looked it up:

http://www.wdfw.wa.gov/outreach/fishing/t&sid.pdf

15-19 anal fin rays for chinook vs. 8-12 for steelhead (and presumably cutthroat).

I count 18.

---------------------------------------

[Riverkeeper]

But chinook aren't supposed to have spots below the lateral line.

[SilverFly]

Good point. Also, after taking a closer look at Lurkerdave's beautiful cutt, I would have to say that cutthroat spots are only less irregular than chinook spots.

So who knows what it is? :shrug:

----------------------------------------

[Abalone]

I showed that picture to my Cousin. Dudley Nelson worked fish and Game OSP but is retired now. He thought it was a cutthroat but thought that it had too many spots. Viens on the fin is a good clue. Les Johnsons book states the a Sea run will have less the Twelve Viens. Also. Searuns change color after being in fresh water for a long time. They go from Silver to that gold color. The Throat slashes would tell alot, although they tend to dissappear when in the Salt.

[greenbuttskunk]

looks like a chinook to me. I've caught fish very similar. Expecially that size, they tend to have more brown and lots of spots. The fishs head looks like more of a nook to me also. just my opinion.

[AndyK]

But chinook aren't supposed to have spots below the lateral line.



I caught a Tule in August that looks just like the photo posted here. It had spots all the way to the stomach...

[Abalone]

You can imagine any fish that gets huge for it's size starts to take on a slightly differernt Morphology. A huge anything looks different then when they are small. The rays in the fins are less than a Chinook.. Count them and count the fins on the pictures of the Cutthroat....

Chinook ? no way !

[lilnorthfork]

This was taken by an ifisher (uglygreen I think) last spring on the Trask...
http://www.ifish.net/gallery/uploads/2754/searun_cutt_cropped.jpg

[mandinga]

lilnorth...thanks for that pic.


I am looking at the regularity of the spots on that cutt...the spots on the big one are very different...

[Abalone]

I sent the picture off to Chris Knutsen ODFW biologist.
He does the Coastal Cutthroat research on the Coast. He is the one that told me there are SRC as big as Steelhead on the coast.

Maybe he can clear this up...?

[lilnorthfork]

Maybe he can clear this up...?


What would be the fun in that? For me, perhaps the single most remarkable aspect of mother nature is knowing she can throw a curveball at any moment. Ahhh, the joy of life's little wonders. lnf

[Abalone]

Well for on Lilnorthfork:

It's my fantasy to hook a Coastal cutthroat that size. Now what good is it going to be to go around thinking there aint any ??? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

If you are going to wish, WISH BIG ! Yahooooo :yay:

[Stew]

My favorite fish on a fly :cheers:

http://www.ifish.net/gallery/uploads/1882/stew30001.jpg

Hooked this one on th Trask and had hooked an even bigger one a day earlier.
This one was definately in resdient colors but I'm not sure they all go to salt. Some say they really go no further than the bay :shrug:

[onebadfish]

abalone,
what are we going to do when these guys are trying to tell the difference between a trout and a chinook? thanks for the reference to the biologist, but it's obvious just by looking at gum color, fin configuration, basic shape, and coloring that it is not a chinook. that's a great picture by UG, LNF, what thread did it come off of?

[lilnorthfork]

From the community board... last March I believe. I have used it as my background ever since and never get tired of looking at it. lnf

[Riverkeeper]

I have used it as my background ever since and never get tired of looking at it.



The picture of Stew? :whazzup:

[PharmDoc]

Looks like a nookie to me! :grin:

[LurkerDave]

Maybe its a Chicutt, or is that nookthroat???!!! :grin: They are the same genus too, right.