Conservation Groups to Sue ODFW [Archive]

Hooker

07-31-2003, 09:39 AM

A coalition of seven conservation groups have started legal contact with the ODFW due to violations with the Clean Water Act.

They are claiming that the ODFW state run hatchery program is causing severe environmental degradation well beyond levels permitted by the Clean Water Act. So far they have identified nearly 20 hatcheries that are releasing "toxins and sediments" into our streams. They want them either cleaned up or SHUT DOWN.

It also sounds like this isn't the first issue with this. Since 2001, there has been over 1500 seperate violations reported.

What is going on?

Abalone

07-31-2003, 09:47 AM

Where did you hear this ?
These guys do this with the stradegy of depleting money out of the system. Animal rights groups,
conservation group or what ever. They won't win but the will hurt the budget. We need a counter
group to appose them. Less than 10 % of the population hunt and fish the last I heard.
What a joke and an abuse of the system.

Don't drink the water, the fish pee in it ! Yeah right........ :laugh: :sick:

[ 07-31-2003, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: Abalone ]

Hooker

07-31-2003, 10:14 AM

I just recieved the new issue of Salmon-Trout-Steelheader and there was a article on this topic. We need to take a stand on this!

Stew

07-31-2003, 10:46 AM

They've been threatening to do this for awhile now.
Basically they are suing to force the ODFW into compliance for the waste water discharge that violates DEQ standards.
The "deferred" maintenance issue has come back to bite the ODFW.

Here is the press release from Oregon Trout's website

Conservation Groups to Sue Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife Over State Fish Hatchery Operations

OREGON—Oregon's state-run fish hatcheries are routinely violating the Clean Water Act. A coalition of six conservation organizations initiated legal proceedings today to redress these violations by sending the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife (ODFW) a formal notice of intent to file a citizen suit against the agency.

"Oregon's state-run hatchery program is causing environmental degradation well beyond levels permitted by the Clean Water Act," according to Mark Riskedahl, Executive Director of the Northwest Environmental Defense Center (NEDC). This is not the first time that ODFW's hatchery program has come under scrutiny for Clean Water Act violations. In 2001, the Oregon Department of Environmental Quality (DEQ) issued a formal Notice of Noncompliance to ODFW for pervasive
water quality violations it characterized as "systemic". These violations have continued largely unabated. In fact, there have been over 1,500 separate violations since DEQ's original notice in 2001.

The significance of these continued violations in tight economic times is not lost on Joe Whitworth, Executive Director of Oregon Trout. " While most every other state program has undergone round after round of belt-tightening, ODFW perpetuates a program with steep ecological and financial costs -- too steep. These violations demonstrate a clear need for greater scrutiny of a program that's both expensive and broken."

Over 5 million pounds of commercial "closed formula" feed passed through state-run hatcheries into Oregon's waters last year alone. ODFW is uncertain what proprietary ingredients the feed contains, though independent scientists and federal agencies have expressed concern that the feed is contaminated with toxic constituents. Undigested feed and various other chemicals used in the hatchery production process combine with the large volume of fish feces to result in water quality violations.

"ODFW is not above the law. It must be held to the same standard to which private polluters are held, and it must comply with the Clean Water Act", stated Chris Winter, an attorney with Cascade Resources Advocacy Group (CRAG), a public interest environmental law firm in Portland, Oregon representing the conservation groups.

Decrepit hatchery infrastructure and serious mismanagement have led to a situation in which a major overhaul of Oregon's hatchery program would be necessary to meet minimum legal standards.

Joining NEDC on the suit are Oregon Trout, Trout Unlimited, the Native Fish Society, Pacific Rivers Council and the Oregon Natural Resources Council.

[ 07-31-2003, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Stew ]

rob allen

07-31-2003, 01:12 PM

BS.. conservation groups are not trying to bankrupt WDFW. They are desperatly trying to save our wild fish.. There is NO hidden agenda. They just want the hatcheries to stop doing damage beyond what their fish already do. However if all you want is fish to fill your freezer by all means complain away

Artwo

07-31-2003, 03:38 PM

After reading all of the articles about the contaminated farm raised fish through PCB contaminated feed and the fact that the ODFW admits in the above article that they are "uncertain what proprietary ingredients the feed contains" I would agree that this needs to be addressed. All we need is for our hatcheries to cause damage to our streams/fish populations that could cause irrecoverable conditions. I'm just not sure about the way the conservation groups are going about helping to find a solution though, seems to me that they have a hidden agenda " While most every other state program has undergone round after round of belt-tightening, ODFW perpetuates a program with steep ecological and financial costs -- too steep. These violations demonstrate a clear need for greater scrutiny of a program that's both expensive and broken." not sure I agree with that statement.

JK

BrionLutz

07-31-2003, 05:20 PM

Artwo,

I'm just not sure about the way the conservation groups are going about helping to find a solution though, seems to me that they have a hidden agenda I don't think that is a fair reading. This group notified the ODFW two years ago that unless ODFW came up with a plan to address the issue they would be forced to go to court.

ODFW didn't address it in the current budget so at what point do you take action...3 years, 4 years?

I've got a money solution...sell a 2nd rod tag!

Brion

Stew

07-31-2003, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by rob allen:
BS.. conservation groups are not trying to bankrupt WDFW. They are desperatly trying to save our wild fish.. There is NO hidden agenda. They just want the hatcheries to stop doing damage beyond what their fish already do. However if all you want is fish to fill your freezer by all means complain away You're right Rob their agenda is not hidden at all. They want to close hatcheries plain and simple!!!
No doubt that the ODFW needs to get this water quality issue straightened out but Native Fish Society and Oregon Trout have made it pretty obvious what they want and they are sucker punching ODFW to get it.
Have they offered any solution to solving the problem other than a lawsuit? nope! I have no interest in filling my freezer Rob but I'm also aware of the need for the state to provide fish to harvest for the tag buying public.
The ODFW is not without fault either! They knew there was a problem a long time ago and now it's turned into a full blown crisis.

[ 07-31-2003, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: Stew ]

rebell

07-31-2003, 07:18 PM

The saddest part I have read so far on this thread is that the public want's hatchery fish so that they can continue to harvest fish.

Too bad that more of the public will not except the catch and release mind set. It works!! And when done properly has little, or no mortality.

Another thing, If this suit is officially filed, there goes more of the state budget thrown down the drain. Money that could be spent on more important things.

Stew

07-31-2003, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by rebell:
The saddest part I have read so far on this thread is that the public want's hatchery fish so that they can continue to harvest fish.

Too bad that more of the public will not except the catch and release mind set. It works!! And when done properly has little, or no mortality.

Another thing, If this suit is officially filed, there goes more of the state budget thrown down the drain. Money that could be spent on more important things. I agree with the C&R mindset Rusty but I'm afraid the vast majority does not.
These groups are doing this at a weak moment because of budget constraints. Can the ODFW fight back? Do they even have the money to do so or to bring the hathceries up to DEQ standards?
I know as far as the Cedar Creek hatchery goes we are talking millions of dollars to bring it to to date and in compliance.

rebell

07-31-2003, 07:41 PM

Your right Shane. Something needs to be done, but can we afford to take care of the problem? Can we afford to take on a lawsuit? Talk about between a rock and and a hardplace.

I'm still not sure to this day if I would be upset if the Trask hatcheries closed. I know I will catch heck from Jerry on this, but can we really afford to keep them open? One thing that keeps coming to my mind is the Tillamook Anglers Assoc. Jerry Dove has done on heck of a job putting this organization together. Would it be possible that the Tillamook Anglers could assume the responsibilities of the Trask hatcheries? The Wiskey creek hatchery is a true success story.

If this idea is possible, I am willing to bet that we as anglers could fix the problems at the Trask hatcheries for 1/10th the cost.

Just a thought.

[ 07-31-2003, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: rebell ]

Crashin' Bait

07-31-2003, 10:09 PM

Over 5 million pounds of commercial "closed formula" feed passed through state-run hatcheries into Oregon's waters last year alone How did they figure that number out? What part of that 5 million pounds was converted to smolts and legal trout? Seems like someone is exagerating. :rolleyes:

boater

07-31-2003, 10:25 PM

garyk

07-31-2003, 10:35 PM

A lot of the violations were non-compliance for not filing the required reports with DEQ.

Why do ODFW personnel, after being repeatedly warned by DEQ, continue to ignore the reporting requirements?

Also, why did DEQ, our primary state water protection agency fail to get ODFW's attention on this matter.

All in all, it shouldn't take private citizens' time and money spent in litigation to get state agencies to follow the very clear law on this matter.

rob allen

07-31-2003, 11:13 PM

Sorry Stew I completely disagree. These hatchery operators are in the wrong. They are doing things that are illegal. They have blatantly and without regard for anyone continued to conduct business in an illegal manner, Knowingly, intentionally and without any type of remorse or any type of corrective measure. This is exactly like you getting pulled over for speeding and telling the officer to go to hell. Exactly the same!!!
I am so sick of people, companies and agency;s thinking they can get away with anything they want no matter who they harm I could care less what hatcheries get closed it is 100% their own damn fault. They have had excessive opportunity to fix they problem and they didn't do it.
your acting like this is a new issue and ODFW just found out about it. They said to hell with our rivers so I say to hell with them.

Stew

08-01-2003, 12:19 AM

Rob take a deep breath and re-read my post. Where am I acting like this is something that the ODFW just found out about?
Here is what I said in my first response to you
"The ODFW is not without fault either! They knew there was a problem a long time ago and now it's turned into a full blown crisis."
It's fine that you disagree with me but please Rob if you are going to state that I said something Please get the facts correct
By stating that you don't care if the hatcheries get closed you have pretty much summed up the AGENDA of every one of these groups you are defending.

[ 08-01-2003, 12:22 AM: Message edited by: Stew ]

TheRogue

08-01-2003, 06:09 AM

What Stew said, pretty obvious where Rob's coming from here....as usual, no hidden agenda for him. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Question is, will the state be able to ante up for what it's going to cost to fix them all?? I really doubt it....but there may be something in the works for the legislature to pass a law giving those hatcheries a waiver??

TR

Flatfish

08-01-2003, 07:25 AM

The Govs fish man at work again.

Lets see,ODFW can pay lawyers big bucks or use the money to do good elsewhere. Glad to see my tax dollars at work again. And my lic and tag fees.

What exactly is DEQ definition of toxins and sediments? I would be willing to bet that sediment is fish poop from the hatcheries. Of course, those wonderful and pure nates do not poop in their own rivers. Toxins??

I am all for helping wild fish, but this is nothing more than the OT agenda at work. As usual I expect anglers will do nothing until they have lost something else( hatcheries or funds). By then it will be too late.

Mark and the make allies with the commercials, and their powerful lobby, and fight this tooth and nail dog.

Thumper

08-01-2003, 09:07 AM

Sounds like a re-run of the Washington State experience. Just watch --- the suit will drag on and on, then be settled with a nice financial reward for the fly guys and their attorneys. :depressed:

[ 08-01-2003, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Thumper ]

BrionLutz

08-01-2003, 09:50 AM

Flatfish,

Lets see,ODFW can pay lawyers big bucks or use the money to do good elsewhere. It is a real problem that is hurting the salmon and the streams.

They knew they were going to get sued if the didn't address the problem. They had two years, at least, to address the problem.

Perhaps they should have spent the money fixing the problem rather than ignoring it, knowing that they were going to have legal costs if they didn't.

What about the $7M they are using for the new hatchery R&D facility, should that money perhaps be used to address a current problem?

I wonder if that is going to be the end result. I believe that Oregon Trout (and several legislators) were upset over the funding of a new facility during a budget crisis. I think this pork barrel project was needed to get the votes for the ODFW budget and was using funds designated for habitat restoration.

This may be the way for ODFW to get off the hook on the pork barrel project and use the money to fix a real current problem that probably should be addressed before a new hatchery related facility is built.

Brion

TheRogue

08-01-2003, 09:58 AM

This may be the way for ODFW to get off the hook on the pork barrel project and use the money to fix a real current problem that probably should be addressed before a new hatchery related facility is built. Now that's some constructive thinking, good point Brion. Certainly makes sense to me.

TR

garyk

08-01-2003, 11:15 AM

Regarding a waiver - doubt it.

This action, if I'm not mistaken, is being brought under the citizen enforcement section of the Federal Clean Water Act. States cannot unilaterally exempt themselves from Federal statutes.

DEQ has (and this may end )enforcement responsibilities under an agreement with EPA. Because the last decade of Republican controlled Oregon Legislature has so emasculated Oregon DEQ, they've not been able to uphold their end of the Federal agreement by meeting their management responsibities. I suspect this is why DEQ has only sent polite letters to ODFW about their waste-water problems and not been forthright in demanding corrective action.

Folks should be concerned about this, - as the Oregon Legislature obviously is not and has ignored the hatchery infrastruture problems for many years. Folks should ask why does it take a law suit to get some ODFW hatchery managers to file the required periodic reports?

Clean water may be our single most important resource. I suggest that any ire be directed at those who are responsible for the mess and tried to ignore it, rather than those who are invoking their rights as US citizens in an effort to clean up Oregon's waters.

Stew

08-01-2003, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by Thumper:
Sounds like a re-run of the Washington State experience. Just watch --- the suit will drag on and on, then be settled with a nice financial reward for the fly guys and their attorneys. :depressed: Hey Jack I'm a fly guy so when can I expect my first check? :shocked: :grin:
Yep that R&D hatchery is definatley going to be in their gunsights.
As for agendas you need to remember that Oregon Trout and Native Fish Society OPPOSED the license and tag fee increases because it was going towards keeping the hatcheries open.
Like I said before this wasn't something that came out of the blue for the ODFW! They knew it was coming and did'nt address it.

GutshotApe

08-01-2003, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by BrionLutz:
It is a real problem that is hurting the salmon and the streams.

They knew they were going to get sued if the didn't address the problem. They had two years, at least, to address the problem.

Perhaps they should have spent the money fixing the problem rather than ignoring it, knowing that they were going to have legal costs if they didn't.

How bad a problem is it, really? My limited understanding of the "problem" is that all hatcheries have the problem...fish poop, and lots of it. Since the first hatchery, managers have been cleaning out the concrete ponds periodically and flushing the waste down the pipe into the nearby stream. If done in summer/fall low flows, this could be a real problem. If done gradually and during high stream flow periods, I can't imagine there is a discernable, real problem.

ODFW has been aware of the potential threat of suit under DEQ/EPA regs for a lot longer than 2 years...but the fix means expensive sewage treatment facilities at all hatcheries...and for some hatcheries, the cost would be more than the hatchery is worth. Maybe ODFW is banking on a legislative exemption? I don't know.

As for the legal costs...ODFW already has a couple of state asst. attorneys general "on staff" so additional legal costs may not be as much as one would think.

rob allen

08-01-2003, 03:12 PM

Stew I never claimed you said anything or didn't say anything. I was merely making the point Brian made. This suit is entirely the fault of ODFW. 100% these conservation groups are doing their civic duty as American citizens. It is not just a tactic to close hatcheries. That is the opinion of people who know nothing of these organizations. As a member of such an organization I can tell you that we are in no way fighting to close any hatcheries even though it would be great for wild fish and for long term fishing opportunity.
By the way I am not going to calm down. I am sick and tired of people telling me what I want. As if they knew more about me than I do.
I want the hatcheries to be in compliance with the clean water ant and with the endangered species act. They have known they were in violation and they have done nothing to correct the problems and without a lawsuit the problems would go unaddressed forever.

Again I want to state this lawsuit is entirely the fault of ODFW. Entirely and completely. if their hatcheries close as a result that is their own fault and your grip should be with them. NOT oregon trout or any other organization.
On the other hand I believe the science is pretty clear that hatcheries are one of the main obstacles towild salmon restoration so it's no sweat to me if a few close. It would only make the fishing better as far as I am concerned.

TheRogue

08-01-2003, 03:17 PM

First::::

As a member of such an organization I can tell you that we are in no way fighting to close any hatcheries even though it would be great for wild fish and for long term fishing opportunity.
And then::::

On the other hand I believe the science is pretty clear that hatcheries are one of the main obstacles towild salmon restoration so it's no sweat to me if a few close. It would only make the fishing better as far as I am concerned.
That's pretty good, it usually takes at least two posts before you contradict yourself! :wink: :wink:

TR

TheRogue

08-01-2003, 03:19 PM

And besides, who would want to actually KILL and EAT a fish, anyway?? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

TR

4Salt

08-01-2003, 03:50 PM

the suit will drag on and on, then be settled with a nice financial reward for the fly guys and their attorneys.
Last I heard, all the WA "Fly-guys" retired, bought a ton of brand new Sage rods, and are laughing all the way to Blue Creek on the State's nickel... all from the HUGE cash settlement they got! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

From the rediculous to the sublime...

Flatfish

08-01-2003, 06:03 PM

Brion,

If I remember correctly, the fish that are planted for nutritional value(planting dead fish-usually excess hatchery fish after broodstock needs are met- on the banks of the river) are " pollution" according to the DEQ.

If the steelheaders have to get permission to "pollute" the rivers in such a way( sounds like fertilizing to me), and I am quite sure they do, then please define "Pollution" for me according to the DEQ.

I wonder how many times I will have to ask this question before someone answers it.

The DEQ is mad about fish poop from the hatcheries-"sediment". Anything impure is considered pollution by the DEQ.

Once again the lawyers win while we all lose. Just another fine example of what is wrong with this country. :shrug:

Do not jump ODFW for this folks. OT is playing you.

Mark and the dog.

[ 08-01-2003, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: Flatfish ]

Stew

08-01-2003, 06:15 PM

Gotta give ODFW a little of the blame here Mark. They provided the opportunity for groups like OT to jump in.

Flatfish

08-01-2003, 06:42 PM

Stew, OT would sue no matter what. They have their agenda. Simple as that. You can sue anyone for any reason. This is exactly that. Sue an organization to get what you want. Just keep chipping away at the stone. Politics at it's finest.

I wonder if the greedy commercials want to see the hatcheries shut down. Would be nice to have such an ally at times like this. Then you could sick your lawyer on them! Make them spend their money defending themselves instead of offending me! graemlins/applause.gif

Mark and the dog.

rob allen

08-01-2003, 08:47 PM

I in no way contradicted myself if you'll read what I said you'll see that very clearly.. There is a huge difference between fighting to close hatcheries and not careing if they get closed.

Maybe you guys should try attending ythe meetings of these organizations before you speak out in ignorance about what they are after.. what i am saying is

As I said before ODFW is entirely at fault. but you guys seem to want hatchery fish no matter what the cost. When will you see that your position is as radical as mine?? and you guys are the ones getting everything you want..

what it boils down to is you want fish to catch and the ends justify the means. You think wild fish are great but in the end you really don't care because you want hatchery fish to kill.

OT and NFS are correct in suing ODFW and in fact they are morally right in doing it and no doing it would be morally wrong..

fishing would only get better if hatcheries closed..

Mr. Carp

08-01-2003, 09:07 PM

This is completely ridiculous IMHO. OT is actually suing ODWF for discharging poo in the river. :hoboy: I suppose the wild fish are smarter and follow the DEQ rules and just "hold it". :wink:

I would bet that boat motors and such is more of a pollutant than a little fish poo and food. Look at the Willamette by Portland. That looks like it is clean as a whistle. No runoff from the streets of sewer goes in there. :wink: I am just saying I think there are bigger fish to fry then the hatcheries.

Stew

08-01-2003, 09:12 PM

Geez Rob where can I get a pair of those rose colored glasses you're wearing?
Where are the funds coming from for things like like habitat restoration for wild fish? License and tag revenue that's where Rob. If the license and tag buying public cannot have harvest opportunities then why should they buy licenses? If there is no money for habitat restoration then the wild runs are going to suffer.
I'll agree that there has been a need for hatchery pratices reform! Things cannot go on status quo! I don't think anyone would argue that Rob but until we achieve this fishing utopia you talk about we need harvestable fish.

I understand your position on some hatcheries. The Skamania hatchery on the Washougal is a miserable failure and the wild runs have suffered because of that hatchery....they ought to close it. That's an example of how not to run a hatchery.
As far as OT and NFS being morally obligated to file this lawsuit...give me a break Rob. I'm quite familiar with these organizations and who runs them :rolleyes: 'nuff said about that.
So Rob quite thinking you are taking the moral high ground here and looking down upon us who don't agree with you.
Most people here are just as concerned about wild fish as you are.

[ 08-01-2003, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: Stew ]

rob allen

08-01-2003, 10:30 PM

Stew I am not looking down on anyone. What i am saying is that the people in your position already have everything they could want.That is plenty of harvestable fish in almost every river in the states of Oregon and Washington. I don't think people should be complaining when another goup of people tries to get ODFW to obey the laws they have been intentionally breaking for years.

If I were to close one hatchery I'd want the Wind river salmon hatchery closed. It's already too late for the Washougal.. The production would be shifted to other locations then planted in the Wind below the falls and the fish ladder would be decomissioned.

BrionLutz

08-01-2003, 11:04 PM

Flatfish,

I wonder how many times I will have to ask this question before someone answers it. The DEQ is mad about fish poop from the hatcheries-"sediment". Anything impure is considered pollution by the DEQ. Looks like you answered your own question. They are, in effect, dumping a huge amount of raw sewage in the water. It's a very concentrated, unnatural process. ODFW biologists don't disagree. It's a recognized problem the ODFW just didn't deal with, budget constraints, internal priorities, whatever.

They were told two years ago that they groups were going to force them to fix the problem if they didn't address it.

They ignored the DEQ, ignored their own biologist and ignored the salmon groups. They ran out their own clock.

ODFW may even be using it as a shield so they can now shift funding from the new hatchery R&D facility to upgrades on existing hatcheries.

Brion

Flatfish

08-02-2003, 08:32 AM

Brion,

are you an attorney?

Can you, or have you ever practiced law?

Just wondering.

Wild fish carry little pooper scoopers with them. If you walk along the spawning beds, you will see little fish poo waste disposal cans on the bank. :rolleyes:

Before the white man got here, when the runs were 10 or maybe 20 times as large as they are today. Hatchery fish included. Where did the poo go from all of these millions of fish? Amazing they lasted as long as they did before we got here. Now we can save them from themselves. Or at least OT can.

I rest my case your honor.

Mark and the more than 3 posts and it's a rant dog.

Straydog

08-02-2003, 08:58 AM

Comparing natural fish poop production to hatchery production of same, does not wash, so to speak.

Historicaly these fish were spread throughout the entire system and the timing of their hatch, growth and pooping was spread over longer periods of time.

With hatchery fish you have an unnatural concentration of fish in confined areas for short, condensed periods of time. This allows for a large concentration of pollutants that would be spread over a larger area and time frame in natural conditions. Walk through a large cow pasture. Now walk through the feeding barn where all of those critters congregatge and feed. Where is the concentration of waste.....?

ODFW has been under a microscope for the last few years and I think has been responding to mandates from Legislators that have required a lot of their resources in man power and money.

You know, little things like finding funds to keep hatcheries open at all, finding funds for reg. enforcment and of course the little matter of moving it's entire operation to Salem. I have heard them lament the lack of maintentance funds for several years but our Legislators have not been too concerned in funding said maintentance, or the whole agency as far as that goes.

If you want to point fingers at someone, start with who ever you voted for for the Legislature..... :shrug:

[ 08-02-2003, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Wood N' Fish

08-02-2003, 11:16 AM

Flatfish----Right ON! graemlins/idea.gif graemlins/applause.gif

rob allen

08-02-2003, 11:25 AM

Straydog

08-02-2003, 11:47 AM

OK enough speculation how about some facts..

Some ODFW hatcheries are knowingly in violation of federal law
these same hatchries have had years to fix the problems but did not.
These hatcheries need to be cleaned up You missed one.........
It will cost money, lots of it.

BrionLutz

08-02-2003, 03:54 PM

Flatfish,

As Staydog has pointed out, you can't compare the native fish in the undamaged environment to a hatchery dumping sewage into the river today.

1. ODFW was told about the problem by DEQ several years ago.

2. They were told that citizen groups would sue if they did not obye DEQ and clean up the waste discharge.

3. They didn't, citizen groups did.

So now we use the $7M earmarked for the new hatchery research facilty to clean up the hatcheries.

If that's not enough, we add a 2nd rod harvest tag.

Brion

Flatfish

08-02-2003, 04:14 PM

Brion,

Good timing.

So the farmers that dump just a touch more raw sewage into the rivers( and over an extended period of time) do no damage? Of course they do. But they have attorneys that represent them to make sure that they can.

We could have that too(definition of "We"- sports anglers who do not hate hatchery bred fish) you know. Your money WILL get spent somewhere. Either now on a Lawyer or later on a tag increase.

But fish poo, oh my goodness, fish poo will certianly exterminate the whole species. Gimme a break. This is an agenda. I gather you are a member of OT?? But the farmers can dump sewage( runoff) into our rivers.

Folks, Kitz strongarmed you into a lic fee increase. He threatened to shut down hatcheries. We all pay for it. The funds went elsewhere. We picked up the slack.

We have a new gov now. His OT friends want to shut down the hatcheries.I wonder what they get out of this??? Could they financially benefit from it?? Jeesh. I wonder. They will play the same storyline as has been played many times before. The names will be changed.But that is all.

Brion, you are already waving a flag for a 2nd rod tag to help increase funds again.

I would just as soon see each affected angler pay 5-10 dollars for an attorney to defend my interests, than to fund someone elses agenda.

Oh yeah, and for the record, I did not vote for our Gov. He has had an anti hatchery stance since the primaries.

Mark and the dog.

[ 08-02-2003, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Flatfish ]

BrionLutz

08-02-2003, 04:30 PM

Flatfish,

So the farmers that dump just a touch more raw sewage into the rivers...Billy did it too is not a realistic defense. Everyone has to clean up their own mess.

ODFW has been told repeatedly about the sewage problem with the hatcheries, they were told they'd be sued if they did not fix the problem, the were given two years to come up with a plan.

They didn't fix the problem or come up with a plan and they lawsuit they knew would result is on them.

Brion, you are already waving a flag for a 2nd rod tag to help increase funds again.I've always be waving that flag.

I think the easiest solution is ODFW agrees to fix the problem, comes up with a plan and uses the $7M for the new hatchery R&D facility to fund it.

Seems easy and probably does a lot to clean the streams and increase the salmon.

Brion