Cancelled Trip: Who's Right, Who's Wrong?

[Chromatic]

I want to know what folks on ifish think about this...

I had this trip with a guide (I'll withhold his name for now) lined up for this Saturday, June 7, to float the Nestucca. Scheduled it way back in March, based on his recommendation of when the springer run would be peaking on the Nestucca. I wanted to go in May, but he had vacation scheduled and other clients. When we settle on the date back in March we agree to get back in touch with one another to confirm the details.

So here it is, Thursday the 5th, two days before the trip, and I've still heard nothing from the guide. My wife and I are getting ready to go over to Pacific City tomorrow night, where we've had hotel reservations lined up for the past two months. I call him this afternoon to see what the plan is, and when I call, he tells me that he's cancelled all his trips because the fishing sucks (his words), the water's too low & clear, and he doesn't want to take clients out if they're not going to get any hook-ups. The only people getting fish are the ones fishing at first light, and I get the strong impression that that's earlier than he's willing to start the day. He sounds all depressed about the fishing, which I can understand, 'cause it's bad for business, but I don't get an apology or an acknowledgement that this is a last-minute cancellation.

Now I appreciate the honesty (I think) of not wanting to take clients out if the fish aren't biting, and admittedly, I haven't been monitoring the flows on the Nestucca very closely lately, but my gripe is, why was it up to me to find out two days beforehand that my trip was cancelled? And if he'd cancelled all his trips, why am I the last to know?

So who's right and who's wrong here about being incommunicado on the trip? In my mind, it shouldn't be up to the client to find out the hard way that his trip has been cancelled, not at the last minute. That seems unprofessional to me, to say the least. Meantime, my wife and I don't want to put the hurt on the hotel and cancel the reservation last-minute, but I am feeling a little SOL since I could have saved some money and maybe gone where the fish are biting this weekend.

What do you all think? And since we're going to be in Pacific City/Tillamook area no matter what for the next couple of days now, is there anywhere where the fishing is at least decent? Heck, I'll even go trout fishing if the rivers are a bust for metalheads or springers. But bottom line, I thought that since the guide claims to float the Kilchis, Nestucca, Wilson, and Trask, that he/we would at least have a Plan B. Guess I'm on my own, so am open to suggestions.

:shrug:

[ampersat]

i can see how you'd be ticked about having the trip cancelled, especially with the lodging reservations you have. if he's cancelling trips he should be in touch with clients to let them know as soon as he knows he's cancelling the trip. to me, it sounds like he knew a while back that he would be cancelling your trip.

now, i don't know squat about what's going on on the coast other than what i've read here and you've probably read the same stuff. maybe you can do an offshore trip??? an ifisher out there care to put an open seat out for springers in the bay maybe???

[Danderson]

chromatic Do you have a chat program you use ICQ, MSN, Yahoo...ect ect. if so give me your handle i will talk to you about some differant options if you are heading over that area. If not shoot me an email at Danderson201@earthlink.net and will respond with some info that may help you make the best of your situation. Yes river levels are low right now on the coast. but fishing is still possiable in area's around were you will be.

[BrionLutz]

Chromatic,

As soon as he knew he was canceling your trip, he should have called you. This wasn't bad weather or some unforeseen event.

He should also have provided some alternatives when he called you a few weeks in advance. Try this guide, fishing this area.

The line about having to get up early to get fish...sheesh...that's totally bobo...and I hate to get up early (guide says 7:30 start and I'm dancing on the ceiling) but that's the guide's call, whatever it takes to catch fish.

Bad business person there and not very courteous. I'd be ticked.

No excuse for what you describe.

When I book trips, I try and let the guide know what the deal is vis a vis folks coming in from out of town, etc. anything with cascade effect possibilities and costs.

You might want to make some phone calls to the guides on the Ifish list and see if they have a Saturday open or can recommend someone.

Brion

[Straydog]

Very unprofessional but not uncommon, in most any profession, it seems anymore.

I wouldn't worry too much about canceling your lodging if you can give them 24 hours notice.
On the other hand, for me the coast sounds pretty good right nowas it was 104 in Grants Pass today.
:shocked:

[Angler of Repose]

I know how you feel. I booked a trip, had reservations lined up, and people coming in from out of town, only to have my trip cancelled at the last minute. I won't do a guided coast trip with anyone but Dave Johnson. It's too far to go for a crap shoot. If I wanted to gamble, I'd stop half way in Grande Ronde.

[BrionLutz]

Tuna Breath,

On the flip side, first time I booked a coast trip with Dennis Stewart. I show up and the other three folks had canceled but Dennis was there ready to go.

I told him he should have called me to cancel, not fair to him to take just one person out.

Nope...we went fishin. Very professional...in fact, above and beyond.

You know a professional guide when you meet one.

I'd add that best thing to do is get recommendations on a guide.

Brion

[ 06-05-2003, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: BrionLutz ]

[Chromatic]

Brion and Tuna,

The irony was that this guide was actually recommended by someone on ifish, and someone who advertises guide service on it...my wife did some secret research and scored this trip for me as a Christmas gift, even put a request for a recommendation out there using my handle. She's already paid the guy, too, which makes her a little peeved, to say the least.

I'll keep Dave Johnson and Dennis Stewart in mind, since you recommend them. Will see if anyone has an opening, as you recommended Brion.

[Mr. Carp]

That is total BS. YOu should almost post the guy's name so others don't deal with that kind of garbage you had to go through. Well, at least you get to go enjoy the beach.

[BrionLutz]

Chromatic,

The irony was that this guide was actually recommended by someone on ifish, and someone who advertises guide service on it.<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Eyow! Now that is disturbing. Your wife did everything right other than fishing with the guide first.

I cold called two guides when I first got out here...first one was great and I fish with her a lot. 2nd one was a nightmare that was so outlandish it's a standing joke with kids now.

The rest I booked after watching guides operate out on the river.

Brion

[fishing is life]

Why dont you see if another guide might have an opening on Tillamook Bay. I am surprised the other guide just gave up. They have to be somewhere.

[IFISH4U]

Ya, there are alot of new and unprofessional guides out there now, thats to bad. I dont even fish that area, but I know that the fishing isnt all that bad, he could have found somewhere to take you if he really knew whats going on. Ive never had fishing so bad that hooking up fish anyday is impossible. Well just go and have a good time and do some exploring.

Yes, you are right.

[Snapset]

I gotta defend the guide on this one. He may have been waiting til the last minute, hoping for a shot of rain to improve the fishing. I would be much more disturbed if a guide took me out to go through the motions with little chance of catching fish. It sounds like the guide might have been able to contact you sooner to let you know of his misgivings with regards to the fishing conditions, but either party could have initiated that communication.

[CATCH AND EAT]

Sounds like a guide that has been problematic with others too. Be very careful who you select to take you fishing. :depressed:

[Go Harley]

Any guide worth his salt would be able to find fish in these conditions.... all they gotta do is follow Team Karrot to the water. :laugh:

[BrionLutz]

Snapset,

This is a business by someone claiming to be a professional not a couple buddies going fishing.

No excuses for how Chromatic was treated.

As far as a guide "going through the motions", under any circumstances, that would a reason to ask for one's money back.

Same thing for saying either side could have communicated sooner...nope...it's the professional's job to be professional and call as soon as something happens that might affect the customer's trip.

It's one thing when the weather kicks up or the ODFW shuts down early or some such. I've had trips canceled at the last minute due to weather, it happens.

From a purely business standpoint, the guide was not very professional. If they are not biting in one spot, go to another and give it your best shot. Tell the customer what the scoop is, do the very best you can, collect $500 and pass GO.

If they guide is associated with any sponsors such as GI Joes, Fisherman's, Alumaweld, NorthRiver etc., I wouldn't hesitate to complain to them about the person.

Brion

[Flatfish]

If I had to guess,( have not been there since March) I would say the 'Tucker is 57-60 degrees. I am sure it is gin clear.

Have you ever had a good days' fishing springers in a shallow, warm, clear river on a hot sunny day? At least he canned the trip instead of taking you for a boatride. Anything above tidewater is , at best, a first light show. Even tidewater is , on average, one a day fishing. I would not pay someone 250.00 to fish maybe a couple hours.

You may be let down. It may not have been done in a manner that let you down easy. But the guide was honest.

Go to the beach in Pacific City and see if the Dories are going thru the surf. Maybe one of them will take you out for bottomfish.


When you get done with that, eat the big burger at "Fat Freddies". Then take some cholesterol medication.

Mark and the Fat Freddies is my favorite dog.

[Old Coot]

I have to vote with Chromatic. I think he has a right to be irritated. The 'Tucker didn't clear, drop and warm overnight. Professionalism, not to mention old-fashioned common courtesy, dictates advance warning via a phone call or email that conditions are deteriorating and a cancellation may have to be an option. As for holding out to the last minute before talking to the customer to see if conditions change, a bright 12 year-old can pull up the NOAA site and come up with a 75% accurate 3-day forecast just by looking at the photos.

[pearl]

Heres another spin on a problem I had with a guide last week.

Went up to Junaeu Alaska last week for a little business and to mix in a little pleasure. Spent 3 days at Tanaku Lodge which is a top notch A+++ place to stay and fish. I had an extra day so I flew back to Juneau. I had booked a day trip with a local respected guide for my self and two other people who were with me. A deposit was sent two months ago for all three. To my suprise when I get there in the morning there are two other people waiting to get on the boat. I figure what the heck. Boats going to be a little crowded but I gave the nod to the guide figuring he's just trying to fill the boat and make his money. We get out in the bay and start to troll and we only put out 4 rods for five people. I look at the guys that I'm with and then at the others that I don't know as they kind of look back at me. I then ask the two that I don't know if one of them is along for a boat ride? They tell me their both there to fish. Well not being the bashfull type I tell the guide we all paid and expect to fish. He tells me that the best way to do it is to just rotate a man after a fish is caught. He finally buts out a fifth rod after a few tense moments. The others are on downriggers and this ones fishing top water. Not a productive way to fish. About an hour goes by and his trolling motor starts to go south. His solution is to run back to the dock and he'll drive home and get a spare trolling motor and we'll be back on the water in no time. At this point the two guys that I didn't know decided to wait it out and go back out. Myself and the two guys with me made a decision to bag this trip. I took the guide aside and told him that I wasn't going to pay for the following resons....

* Over booking the boat

* Not being prepared to fish the number of clients on board

* Unreliable motors and equipment

Was I right or wrong to bail on this trip ?

I have a hunch small claims will decide this one. Deposit is still an issue.

[greenbuttskunk]

That's a lame bogus excuse to me! What about calling a few days before and saying Hey, the river fishing is really poor, can we reschedule? or do you want to try sturgeon in the estuary or something. If he's good, he should have some kind of plan B, right?

[DriftR]

Chromatic,
Sounds like you are having a problem. I would advise you to go over to Pacific City with your wife and enjoy the weekend. PC is a fascinating place on the weekends. With this warm weather you'll have dories if the seas are calm, maybe hang gliders off the Cape. You can fish for Chinook off the bank at Bob Straub Park and set your own schedule. Or try The Pelican Pub and Brewery. Watch the surfers, look for whales, seals, sea lions. Go North of the Cape and fish for surf perch. Head North to Sand Beach and watch the sand dune buggies. Go up to Cape Lookout Park and hike out to the point, great view. Take in some of the glass shops in Pacific City. It is to nice of place to not take a real look at. Fishing on the Tucca may be a first light effort. But, I have fished that river over 30+ years. Even if the fish don't cooperate there is always something to see on any drift. Deer, elk, ducks, cows, birds of all kinds. My good buddy once watched a bear cooling himself off in the lower Tucca. Your guide should have mentioned it, but, put it behind you and enjoy that great area. You won't be disappointed.

[husker]

i have to think chomre got a bad deal here. we all know the weather in oregon has been really nice the last few weeks so the guide has had more than ample opportunity to call and say lets reschedule. the guide blew his obligations to the client and thats its. heres the kicker though most guides sell trips through word of mouth. will chome recomend this guide to anyone esle? i highly doubt it.

[Deleted User]

Chromatic,
This was vary unprofessional of the guide to let you know only two days before hand. Most guides ask people to cancell no later then 2 weeks of their schedueled trip, I feel they should hold the same standard with their clients.... it's only fair in my opinion. This guide should have atleast called and offered a trip elsewhere or tried to reschedule with you. Vary sorry to hear about this.

[BrionLutz]

Pearl,

Interesting.

I think it depends on if you booked the whole boat or not and what a "whole" boat is.

For example, around here, four is usually considered a full boat and a lot of guides note that.

In this case, if you have less than four, then the guide can fill the boat.

If I'm bringing folks in to fish and we don't fill the boat I typically "buy" the boat and pay for the "fourth" seat.

So...what's a full boat is a question one?

Regarding the engine dying, they guide offered to get it fixed and go back fishing, not much more he could do there...stuff happens.

I'd expect a rod per person unless it's less efficient.

On the number of rods, when I fish with a mixed crew, I try and talk folks into rotating, pick a number kind of thing. If any kids are along, kids go first and then adults. Even when folks want to fish "their" rod, I'll hand off after I've caught one if no one else is catching. But that's a personal preference.

The rod vs boat fishing is something that should be squared away right away. Sounds like the guide was fishing the boat which was OK but he should have explained everything in advance when you were booking three seats and certainly at the dock.

I'd say you had some communication problems on some style issues and the kicker dying probably got it boiling over.

The guy lacked communication skills but the bottom line, the guide had you out there fishing and was willing to make good on the one unforeseen problem.

I'd be dying to know of they got fish after they went back out.

Brion

[manchu49]

Is it the guide responsiblity to call the client and if he can't get a hold of the client be at the river to either explain in person or find another option? Just asking? I had a very similiar situation in march....except that I was at the river waiting for the guide that didn't show.

[SKP]

I'm going to let the cat out of the bag. I've had a friend fish the "Guard Rail" hole at Pacific City in the past week. Several salmon were taken there. It's not hot fishing, but fish are being caught. Fish with a bobber and egg/shrimp combo or toss spinners. You'll save paying for a guide, and have a fair chance at catching one. There's no guarantees, but this can be a good spot in early June depending of course when fish come through. It could be HOT, it also could be dead. Each day is different. My biggest springer ever was 27 pounds caught on the Nestucca in late May about 10 years ago.

Also, finding a good guide for Tillamook Bay is also a good choice. I've heard of some action there.

As you go south from Pacific City a few hundred yards, the guard rail hole is right at the boat ramp just before you head east back toward Highway 101. Fish down stream of the boat ramp on the rocks. Fish a bobber near the bottom, or fish your spinner so you are also near the bottom. Most importantly, watch the locals fish, and keenly observe those that catch a fish for technique. That's how I learned.

Good Luck and let me know if you caught anything.

SKP

[DriftR]

SKP,
Good info on the "Guard Rail Hole". I forgot that one totally. Also, I need to clear up a mistake on my earlier post. It is not Sand Beach but Sand Lake where the dune buggies go. Sorry about that. Seeing those dune buggies when I fish with my buddy offshore in his dory reminds me of ants on an ant hill.

[Chromatic]

All: thanks for comments. Good perspectives and suggestions. I'm going to give this dude one more chance in Aug./Sept. with the coho/fall chinook runs. He might come through after all.

In the meantime, I'll take the advice that SKP and DriftR had on fishing spots and surf n sun. It'll be a good weekend no matter what. Who knows; I may get a hookup going solo.

Cheers, ifishers...

[BrionLutz]

Chromatic,

I'm going to give this dude one more chance in Aug./Sept. with the coho/fall chinook runs. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Curious...why would you give someone who treated you poorly a 2nd chance?

Brion

[Amerman]

Chromatic

I think the guide should have told you what was going on with the fishing on the coast and gave you your option as to whether or not you wanted to still go ( maybe this is even what he thought he did). If you decide to still go and fishing sucks then no loss to him. If you decide to cancel because of the slow fishing then its your decision. If you decide to go anyway and you catch a couple of fish everyone is pleasantly surprised. This is always how I handle things. But I don't think you should get to mad at this guide if he had the courtesy to cancel you rather than take you when he felt fishing was too bad. I would think though that he could have gave you other options as to where he could take you fishing this weekend.

[garyk]

Regarding Pearl's AK situation.

Different areas have different guiding customs - that's why it is so important to go over each side's expectations while booking the trip.

Down here, some guides will mix parties, others absolutely will not. SO, if you're booking a trip for less than a full boat, ask directly whether others will be added to fill the boat. With the amount of money changing hands, there should be no surprises, but as always, it's incumbent on the consumer to ask the questions.

[Gone Fishin]

Well, I think who he is referring to here is me.

I did cancel for today and yesterday as well. Also had some cancel on me this week. I have folks who indicated they wanted to fish the river. Truth is, the river fishing sucks right now! I've fished it throughout the week because the folks again would rather be in the river than in the bay, so I was pleasing my customers even though I told them our odds were probably better in the bay. We did manage to catch a couple fish, I've been running 1/2 day trips from first light till around 10 or 11 am, the water is extremely low, gin-crystal clear, we've had bright-sunny days up to 92 degrees, and the fishing has sucked! I don't have any problem getting on the water early, I do have a problem justifying charging someone for fishing for an hour of good fishing time. I do have a sled, and I'm not afraid to use it, If you might have shown interest in a bay trip I would have surely been happy to set it up, but like the others booked this week, you wanted to fish the river. I guess I'm unprofessional for not taking your money (or gift certificate paid for by your wife) and just taking you down the river on a boat ride.

Thats not my style, sorry.
unless of course, all you wanted was a boat ride.

I'll be happy to refund your money instead of setting up another date to try to redeem myself, I have nothing to prove to you.

Why would you bring this up on ifish and not on the telephone?

Please send me your address, you may use my e-mail and I'll get your refund out to you. Then you can book with Dave or Dennis as you posted above.

Next time, if you don't have a problem fishing anywhere...just say so! I have lots of plan "B"'s.

I'm at home, not making a dime the past couple days which isn't the way I planned things either.
I'd rather be out working, Hell! I love fishing in the Bay! I guess to be considered professional I'll just keep working no matter what the condition or what's going on in the fishery as long as my client is happy he's there. Then you could jump on ifish and badmouth about the terrible trip you had in crappy conditions and didn't catch any fish!

Sounds to me just more communication was needed here, that's why I say, and I believe it was on your certificate, for more information call ...

[ 06-07-2003, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: Gone Fishin ]

[rags]

Sounds like miscommuniction. A typical human error we see all the time. I fished with Marty and know he is a professional and would never rip someone off. I would go with him in a heartbeat. You should use your trip and fish Tillamook Bay with him.

[Jennie@ifish]

Marty is absolutely, and without any doubt, an extremely reliable and professional guide.

From magazine write ups, to e mails I have received concerning going the extra mile for his clients, this is a first.

Yip, sounds like miscommunication.

I don't understand, also, why you wouldn't talk to Marty, but instead chose your tenth post to be a public bash session? :shrug:

Jen

[TH]

Communication is always up for debate.. one party may think he's doing the right thing and the other party thinks he's wrong!
I have recommended Marty to SEVERAL diferent people who wanted to fish the Tilly area and they have had outstanding treatment! and wonderful trips.
I'm not here to say who was right or wrong because I dont think there's an answer to the question.

I know a dozen guides who would have told you the river was fishing great yesterday and taken you down anyway! Happens all the time..
I think Matry did the right thing by bagging the trip.. maybe a phone call earlier in the week would have been helpful to you but I dont know the agreement you had woth him and how you agreed to go about cancelations?

Seems to me that you are set for the Fall and I'm sure Marty will put you on fish!

I hope this gets worked out for both patries involved!

I know how Matry feels about this issue being placed here on a tread, but I also think you did a good job not mentioning his name.. its easy to get upset and throw something out there that may be negitive to one and has lasting affects to another.

and if you decide to fish with DJ, he's AWESOME too...

Good luck to both of you!

[willametteriveroutlaw]

Chromatic,
I have to agree with Marty on this one as well. The stuc is damn near impossible to fish for springers when the weather is hot and the river is low. I would be willing to bet he was holding out on the off chance the weather would change. If it did cloud up and rain a little you would have been in for a marvelous trip, but when the water is like this the is only about an hour to an hour and a half of opportunity. 30-45 mins in the morning and 30-45 minutes in the evening. Thats it, this is the first year I haven't been down there fishing spingers and summers in 3 years, but I know the conditions.

[willie17]

I couldn't help but respond to this

I never believe in openly talking about someone except to their face.

e-mail and this forum is a great way to bash someone but not really have to face someone.

here is my input.

the guide is making a living doing what he thinks is right and for that I would tell him thank you but him not calling well that is another matter. I think I would give him another try. But you need to be more involved in the process

just my 2cents

take care
good fishing

[AnglersRental]

Just wondering how far in advance the guide was supposed to know the fishing was going to be poor on the proper date?

If he called you two weeks in advance to cancel the trip pecause the fishing would suck on your date would you believe him or say wait and see?

Why not just go to the beach enjoy the great weather and do a bottom fish trip or something instead of whining? I guess the guide should have kept his mouth shut and taken your money for an unproductive boat ride - would that make you happy?

UG

[crabbait]

Human communications are delicate and tenuous at best. This sounds like a classic case of miscommunication!

Marty is a great guide and I am sure that he would rather fish than sit at home. Chromatic, it sounds like you are a dedicated fisherman, too. I suggest that you hook up with Marty a little later in the year and get your money's worth.

With all that has been said and, now that we have heard both sides, I believe it is time that we let this go. Looks to me like neither side was right or wrong.

[BrionLutz]

Gone Fishin,

Since I was one of the ones who thought Chromatic was treated poorly, the reason I said that is how Chromatic described the situation.

my gripe is, why was it up to me to find out two days beforehand that my trip was cancelled? And if he'd cancelled all his trips, why am I the last to know? <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">If that's what happened, then I think his gripe is legit. I'd be ticked if I was left hanging with some out of town friends with long standing plans to go fishing. Maybe take it as a "live and learn" on how customers view such situations.

From a customer perspective, an earlier heads up call and some suggestions on alternatives would do the trick. In the example I mentioned with Dennis Stewart, I had originally wanted to fish Tillamook, Dennis suggested Nehalem. It worked well. I got to fish a new spot and I got a nice fish.

Brion

[crabbait]

Thank you for the last word, Brion, now lets leave this one alone.

[The Greek]

Well said Marty....Sounds like the fella was a little unhappy about "NOT going fishing", I would bet he would be even less happy about a boat ride down low, clear river without catching fish. All too often I find costomers second guessing their guides judgement.