private gps forum? [Archive]

drhall99

05-12-2003, 09:53 PM

Crabbait,

Since there was no announcement posting about it and no moderators for the forum, it looked bad. Like I said, I hoped I was wrong, and I was. If it's for everyone, though, maybe an announcement would be in order, along with the rules for participating in it. And Keta, I called it like I see it. Plain and simple. As far as the requirements go The forum is for Ifishers who actively participate in the offshore fishery and who are sharing resources like open seats, gas, tackle, and flotilla security for the information. If you fit that description, you may be able to access the forum. I'm assuming that this means that there will be a new forum for us "inshore" fisherman to share specific GPS coordinates that will have similar restrictions to use it and will exclude the offshore fisherman as this new forum excludes the inshore ones?
I'm not trying to make anyone mad and maybe I'm out of line, but this new forum seems to miss the mark for the spirit of Ifish and maybe this is the wrong place for this kind of exclusive forum. I'll bet I'm not alone in this sentiment. Jennie, of course, has the ultimate say and if she says this forum stands as it is, I'll say nothing else against it. You guy have done alot of good for Ifish, but I really believe that this will be a bad thing and can bring nothing but hard feelings and create a rift within this little fishy community.

Doug

edited for spelling and grammar.

[ 05-12-2003, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: drhall99 ]

crabbait

05-12-2003, 09:57 PM

Salty Dogs are all about sharing. They set up the forum and share in it.

From the looks of your signature line I would say that you are not interested.

drhall99

05-12-2003, 10:14 PM

Crabbait,

My tagline is there in jest. I first heard it when I worked as a deckhand on a longliner and I thought it was funny. If you look at what little posting history that I have, I do post reports, when I have something worthwhile to post. Also, I didn't intend any personal attack on you or anyone else, so please don't take it that way. Maybe I'm wrong about this issue. A quick poll on the main community board could answer that question.

D.

[ 05-12-2003, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: drhall99 ]

CrazyFish

05-12-2003, 10:40 PM

To Everyone,

If you had been visiting the Salty Dogs forum you would know more about this subject and not be so paranoid.

From what I have noticed the Salty dogs seem to share a lot more information and help than any other ifishers (not intended to dis anyone). While out after Halibut this last weekend out on Big Blue everyone was very helpful with communication on the radio transmitting everything from where the bite was, what the fish were hitting on, to what size fish were hitting.

This was a BIG difference from the river fishing that I experienced this year. Anyone that was sharing information on the river seemed to do so by cell phone instead of using the radio (seems a little tight lipped to me).

Just my opinion

Pilar

05-12-2003, 10:49 PM

DrHall99, please read the following thread http://www.ifish.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=001493 and educate yourself before you judge what you do not understand using incomplete knowledge and assumptions.

Then, let me say a few things here. It may not be obvious to someone who does not use the ocean for a playground but there are a few hard and fast rules you should know about. But first the issue of the new forum. We are breaking new ground here. This is not complete and there is no announcement to make yet. We (the people who wish to share the knowledge) have not thought through all of the issues or even developed the actual tool we will use to share the gps points. The new forum is a testbed to develop the concept. It is password protected. You cannot have access. This is no different than other restricted forums.

The reality of ocean fishing is that the ocean is in charge. This is not true on the river bank or even in a boat on a river in most cases. I would never enable anyone to reach beyond their abilities and/or allow them to use knowledge they were not qualified to have. The folks that are sharing numbers are willing to do so because the realities of ocean fishing tend to prevent the over-exploitation of these spots. We are happy to give each other numbers because we understand the responsibilities of possessing them.

Now should I just open up my GPS book to anyone? What if that guy over there takes the knowledge and his brand new boat and zero hours of experience and goes to one of my spots ... and becomes an artificial reef because he did not know enough to survive in the marine environment? Where would we be then?

So, if you want the numbers DrHall99, meet me out at the rockpile or attend a tunaholics anonymous meeting. Or start hanging out with the guys on the other forum. Once you get the whole picture it will all make sense to you.

We have nothing to hide.

skein

05-12-2003, 10:50 PM

I think this may be a case of "Ready, Fire, Aim."

We were kicking around an idea last weekend and wanted to see if we could set up a place where Ifishers (not just lurkers) could post and/or look up numbers and directions to spots, channels, ramps, and sundry coordinates that further the fishing success of the ifish community. The deal is, we are only about half a baby-step past the "Gee, wouldn't it be neat..." stage, and suddenly everybody is up in arms. Truth is, the Salty Dogs main reputation is unbelievable openness and no-holds-barred sharing.

We're scratching our heads trying to figure out how the foundation of something like this might look - and you're worried about the color of the curtains. Give us a little time - and trust.

Skein

Point-of-Sale Clerk

05-12-2003, 10:55 PM

click here for audio reply (http://newmail.monsterserve.com/keepout/movies/failure.wav)

CrazyFish

05-12-2003, 10:56 PM

Well said Pilar & Skein

drhall99

05-12-2003, 11:20 PM

Pilar,

I appreciate your points on safety. I still have to wonder if this information wouldn't be better suited for the TA meetings, etc and maybe communicated between all interested parties via email. If the point of the new forum is to limit who has access to the information, maybe it's too sensitive for Ifish? I still believe that it will create a bigger separation between the inshore and offshore fisherman. Disagreeing with you like this is not something I enjoy because I respect the kind of activism and involvement that you bring to this board. It's not that having this information would do me any good (I own a driftboat). Remember the whole zipperlip controversy? Imagine how bad the controversy could be when there's an entire forum that has restricted entry.

Just my opinion,
Doug

Born to be Wild

05-12-2003, 11:29 PM

*** Clerk,

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: !!!

crabbait

05-13-2003, 12:00 AM

I believe that the majority of folks understand and share Pilar's concerns. Even if you do not have the required equipment to fish the ocean the Salty Dogs are quick to post an open seat.

Don't feel left out, feel invited in. In most cases all you need is the will to go and your share of the expenses (or a drift boat trip).

If you don't care to play that is your choice, but I see no reason to limit the ability of those who do to share there successes.

jcarufo

05-13-2003, 12:52 AM

Doug,
I would suggest that you just hang out and lurk on the 'Salty Dogs' board for awhile before you jump to judgment. I for one hang there because of the attitude of openness and ongoing sharing of information I always find there. You'll never see a zipperlip, braggart post and if you ask a question you will always get a straight forward honest answer. On the main board it's mostly who you know, on 'Salty Dogs' it's your a fisherman that loves the sea and wants to share that love with others.

If I remember correctly, Pilar just threw out the idea of sharing GPS numbers to the board a couple of weeks ago to see what everyone thought. The response was amazing. Almost every one of the replies was positive and from there the conversation transitioned to how best to do it. There was never an intent of exclusion that I ever saw. I would suggest that you try the same question about openly sharing fishing locations on the main board and see what you get. I would venture to say that you would find that the same attitude of openness doesn't exist. Of course there are some that freely offer locations, information, and seats on their boats to others and enjoy the successes of their fellow fisherman, but I would guess that if you reviewed the majority of the posts through this springer season they would be heavy on photos, devoid of locations, and even short on technique. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with a brag board if that's what your looking for, it just doesn't seem to be the 'Salty Dog' ethic.

From what I've experienced so far, when the GPS board is up and operational, you'll not only have access to the numbers, someone will probably draw you a map as to how to get there. Unfortunatly, I've not had the opportunity to get to know any of the 'Salty Dog' board members personally, but from the exchanges I've read and been a part of, if you take a breath and wait for the end result, I'm sure you'll be pleasantly suprized. Have a great day and tight lines.
Jean

Jennie@ifish

05-13-2003, 05:43 AM

Owwwwwww! That hurts, Jcarufo!

So, the salty dogs are better than the ifishers?!?
Somehow I thought Salty Dogs were ifishers! :smile:
From what you say, the "family" of Salty Dogs is an elevated family of saints!

Thank God I love you all! :smile:

I'm not sure how this will work, but I've always wanted to see how the UBB software handles a password protected area, so when Pilar inquired, I set up a test one. I don't know how it will work, but we can all comment on it, if we want, right?

There needs to be clear cut rules about who can access these. From what I understood, the thoughts now, are that you have to send your GPS readings in, in order to take some out.

But what happens if someone sends in bad ones? There are lots of things that need to be ironed out, and believe me, I won't be doing it, if it causes a further division in fisher people.

You know, anyone can read the Salty Dog board and become involved, so don't feel left out. I just don't fish the ocean much, so I don't go there a whole lot.

So far, posted on that board is a post by me, asking Pilar if it works, and a "Yes, thank you!" from Pilar, saying it does. No GPS yet. :smile:

Hang onto your hats, ifish is still free, and still open to everyone.

If it starts going somewhere, there will be a public notice, and your opinions will all be welcome.

Jen

jcarufo

05-13-2003, 06:48 AM

Jen,
I never said better, the boards just seem to have different ethics thats all. You hang where you feel comfortable. Just comments from my distorted personal perspective. I wish we were all just ifishers. I think you probably started these boards as a place to hang out, share experience and information for all fisherman. The resistance of some to share their gift of knowledge because they are afraid 'someone' else will beat them to 'their' hole or 'their' anchor spot to steal 'their' fish and then brag about their own successes just doesn't seem to fit that goal.
I'm really sorry, my intent was not to offend, but to defend someone that I've seen to be open and sharing of information with everyone.
Jean

Pilar

05-13-2003, 07:02 AM

Jean, I would not say that the salty dogs are better in any sense of the word. We are just different.

Let me give you an analogy ...

There are 2 navies in the United States military. The guys on the fast attack Subs will tell you that there are targets and submarines and only half jokingly. The crew on one of these boats is only a hundred or so men. So everyone is very familiar with the others. Every man knows every inch of the boat like the back of his hand.

An aircraft carrier has up to 5000 men on it. A crewman may not see the entire ship during his tour of duty. The attitude of the 2 crews is very different.

On the boats the crew acts more like an extended family. They share incredible hardships and extreme danger that the surface navy sailors cannot imagine. The water pressure at operating depths will flood the boat in seconds if given 1/2 a chance. This shared danger creates an atmosphere of esprit de corps. No one has a problem alone, the whole crew gets involved whether the problem is on the beach or at sea. It is like having one hundred brothers.

I was never on an aircraft carrier. The crews are made up of professionals who know thier business and do a great job. Without the bird farms we would not be able to project the power of our country to places far abroad.

Same navy, same sailors, all professionals and serving thier country.

I do know esprit de corps when I see it. That is what makes the salty dogs different.

Ifish is an amazing phenomenon. We have people from all walks of life, political stripes and vocations gathered together and united in one thing, fishing and hunting. The crew of the salty dogs is like the crew of a fast attack boat. We are a small community united by the risks we take on the big blue lake. It may look like a clique but it is not. We stick together because that is how you deal with the biggest living thing on the planet, the ocean. It is too big for any man to go after alone.

So, don't be intimidated or feel excluded. Get on a boat and catch some fish or chase some dolphins. Or join us at the pub and hear some sea stories.

[ 05-13-2003, 07:05 AM: Message edited by: Pilar ]

ampersat

05-13-2003, 07:16 AM

gee, i'm glad i asked. :rolleyes:

Can you imagine how much information would be available if anyone with a computer could access GPS coordinates to off-shore fishing spots?a mod supporting zipperlip-ism? i never thought i'd see the day.

So, the salty dogs are better than the ifishers?!?
Somehow I thought Salty Dogs were ifishers!
From what you say, the "family" of Salty Dogs is an elevated family of saints!well said, jennie.

graemlins/eek13.gif hmmm... the salty dogs get their own board for posting gps coordinates. maybe the plunkers should have their own board too.

Miss B Haven

05-13-2003, 07:40 AM

Ampersat- (or anyone) show me a post on the main board that gives GPS coordinates to a favorite fishing spot. :tongue:
Now- go to the Salty Board and search under numbers, coordinates or gps. You will find plenty of freely posted numbers there. Folks are not willing to give up numbers to their favorite small rock cause the whole world is watching this board. We are willing to share with ifish members. :smile:

Jennie@ifish

05-13-2003, 07:48 AM

It does "appear" odd, and a bit contrary, I must admit, to accuse one group of not sharing, of "zipper lipping", and then to start a private board.
However, I don't think that is the Salty Dogs intention. I think they want to SHARE GPS, but not with the entire world. So many people lurk on ifish without even registering, that it would be tough to handle sharing with people who don't give back.
I also think that it is different out in the ocean, since it is so big. The whole concept about zipper lipping is a term that applies mostly to our rivers and streams, which are smaller, and can get overcrowded. It's tough to overcrowd the ocean, isn't it? So, I'd say the Salty Dogs won't have the issue of zipper lips to contend with so much as we do, with rivers and streams. It's not that they are more saintly and have a more open spirit, it's just that that particular problem is not an issue for them.
The picture bragging argument also fails to make sense to me, because last I was there, there were tons of pics of dead halibut. :smile:
I think we all like to show and tell! It's fun!
Anyway, the last thing I want is a division of ifishers, and I won't let that happen, if I can help it.
I do know that the Salty Dogs are one heck of a good bunch of guys! I like them! :)I don't think it's fair for anyone to say one group of people is better than another. We are all individuals, we just fish different!!!
Pilar is working hard to do something good for people. That's a good thing.

Jen

[ 05-13-2003, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

snowball

05-13-2003, 07:50 AM

this shouldn't even be an issue
sound like jealous school children that didn't get as much ice cream as the other guy-

Jennie@ifish

05-13-2003, 08:17 AM

Have you ever been shorted on ice cream, snowball?

It doesn't feel right!

Especially when the ratio of ice cream to cake or cone is totally off. Now that really heats me up!
It happened, just yesterday! I ordered a fresh waffle cone with one scoop! Never,in the contract did it say that you must order two scoops in order to have the balance come out right! Instead, I was left with the bottom of the cone, ice cream less! Sheesh! ..and this, after carefully pressing down on the ice cream, with my tongue, so that it would all work out right. No matter what I did, it wasn't right.

There is nothing worse!
Jen

snowball

05-13-2003, 08:26 AM

lol what makes you think that? By the looks of my tummy, i've not been shorted on much of anything.. say maybe it was me doing the shorting

[ 05-13-2003, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: snowball ]

WildHawg

05-13-2003, 08:29 AM

Jenny--you're a NUT! :grin: :laugh:
But then...so am I. :rolleyes:

AuntyM

05-13-2003, 08:31 AM

Personally, I think they should share away! The Salty Dogs are looking out for the safety of a member of my family and his buddy and are doing a fine job of it! :cheers: I will worry less, and I know my sister in law will worry less. This is so much better than just heading out alone. Pilar and Salty dogs, thank you, thank you, thank you!

Of course, I understand what they are doing and why. It has far less to do with sharing secret spots than it does with staying together. graemlins/hearton.gif

pdxkevin

05-13-2003, 08:32 AM

One way I have seen this handled was to 'hide' various forums from view. When you signed in, the site would load the forums that you had access to. If you didn't have access ~ you didn't see them and didn't worry about being cut out of the loop.

Keep the zipper lip sections away from the view of the masses.

The Fishing Geek

05-13-2003, 08:32 AM

mmmm....forbidden fruit

Pitch Pocket

05-13-2003, 08:50 AM

Jen, maybe you should have labeled it "Test Forum". The criteria for the new board is under development and well documented for anyone who is willing to read the post in Salty Dogs. Firing shots across the bow only shows that someone is shooting from the hip and not researching the situation properly. I think the protest is a non-issue and does not deserve the hand wringing that is going on here. Back to work John, lets get this thing up and running!
:cheers:

Jennie@ifish

05-13-2003, 09:00 AM

I DID! See the large text, TEST? underneath? :smile:

Oh goodie, oh goodie we have a topic to quarrel over for the day. Hohhhhhh brother!

I'm goin fishin! :smile:

Jen

Miss B Haven

05-13-2003, 09:08 AM

Jennie- YES! :dance: I have has that ice cream cone problem- really irks me! :mad: graemlins/berry.gif
ROFLMAO :grin: :cheers:

PS- Maybe you should have used "TOP SECRET" :shocked: instead of private? :bowdown:
This cracks me up but the ice cream problem is a lot more fun to try to solve! :laugh:

[ 05-13-2003, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: Miss B Haven ]

South Paw

05-13-2003, 09:25 AM

Ice Cream?? Can I have some?

Pitch Pocket

05-13-2003, 09:27 AM

Now I see it on the main index page, but in the "cast to" menu at the bottom of the page, it says "Private GPS Forum" with no mention of a test when you open the page. I guess with as many people on here as there is, it is hard to sneak something in.

greenbuttskunk

05-13-2003, 09:37 AM

I think we all need a group hug here!!! :grin: :smile:

corrirod

05-13-2003, 09:40 AM

O.k., I'll start a forum for the inland fisherman so we can trade spots.

O.k. go ahead and start emailing me your favorite GPS spots and I'll start compiling them on the board.

..................I'm waiting.................
..................still waiting...............
..................anybody?....................

Come on, I've been looking for all the honeyholes on the Trask, Clack, Sandy, and Nestucca. Send them to me....................................
...........what, nobody wants to share?.......

That's what I thought. Nuff said!

If you've never been out on big blue with the Salty Dogs then you won't understand. Pilar created this forum to promote ocean safety and the sharing of techniques specific to that fishery. There is a comaraderie on that board that goes far beyond just chatting on the computer. We have meetings to demonstrate safety gear, we do classes on rigging for different types of ocean fish, and share stories(both good and bad) of our experiences on big blue. Anyone that is on that forum knows that these meetings are completely open to the public.

Last Thursday, Friday, and Saturday was the first all-depth Halibut opener. Most of the prime fishing grounds are 30+ miles offshore. I can tell you I have never felt more safe going to those grounds than I did this year because of my fellow Salty Dogs. Listening to channel 78 on the VHF was like some sort of chat line. The line was a constant chatter of "Ifishers" that were helping each other out and wishing each other a safe trip. Stoyjun Princess, who doesn't frequently post on the Dogs, was out there banging around with us and there isn't a GPS number I have that I wouldn't give her, nor any other Ifisher that was willing to make that trek.

The idea of limiting access to the GPS forum was so only those experienced with ocean travel would use them, not someone who had never crossed the bar, doesn't own a gps, doesn't carry the proper rescue equipment(flares, lifejackets, etc.), and doesn't understand the ocean characteristics(tides, currents, wave predictions, etc.).

Besides that, the password wasn't designed to keep the "other Ifish communities out", it was designed to keep "anyone" out that was "not qualified", including Salty Dogs. The qualifications to have access were being discussed as we speak. Nothing has even been created yet, it is still in the discussion phase. The idea was discussed with Jen and she wanted to test the software. Nobody, other than Jen and Pilar, have the password.

If you feel like you need an Inland GPS sharing board then I would say have at it, however I would imagine you'll get very few interested participants. Good luck.

Edit: poor spelling, sorry.

[ 05-13-2003, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: corrirod ]

Pilar

05-13-2003, 10:14 AM

Rod :bowdown: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

................still waiting ..........

[ 05-13-2003, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: Pilar ]

Bait O' Eggs

05-13-2003, 10:42 AM

I am at the chicken Ranch (33 miles west of Newport) last Friday, the Pilar limits the boat in less than a couple hours.

Before heading to other killing fields for alternate species, John is talking to the Stoygen Princess on VHF 78 and radios her to our side of the pack so she could get into some fish as they had not hooked up yet. Then Pilar goes over to another ifisher and we hand off enough bait to fish the rest of the day since the bait they had wasnt getting touched, they limited the boat shortly after the bait drop.

Pilar asked for no compensation nor thanks for his gratitude. Before we had a chance to head for shore Stoygen Princess looked like this with a double on.

http://www.ifish.net/uploads/053610132.jpg

When was the last time you were at Oregon City springer fishing and somebody was catching fish and invited you to come anchor up next to them and offered you eggs or herring or a hot shot in a producing color so you could enjoy the bounty also???

"You cant hear the whine when you cross the bar"

[ 05-13-2003, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Bait O' Eggs ]

Pete

05-13-2003, 10:49 AM

Okay, okay ... try this spot.

45° 35' 38"N
122° 05' 31"W

But be careful, the bottom shifts and the barges don't clear out of your way.

All kidding aside, the utility of GPS inland is eclipsed by the use of landmarks for finding locations, the ease of finding a route (which way did the river go?) and the relative lack of bodily risk if you become lost. It's a different game beyond the visual horizon and your point is well made, Rod.

drhall99

05-13-2003, 01:05 PM

Thumper,
I don't doubt that they have earned it, but it is that what Ifish is about? Aks Jennie about that one. I'm betting the answer is NO.
As far as ocean fishing, I've done plenty in the past (commercial, Mexico and Oregon sport). Enough to know what I'm talking about. But right now, I don't. Small kids and limited time. If you read my earlier posts, you will see thatm that I am not feeling left out, it's the principal of the situation. Sometimes you have yo speak your mind. I'm sorry if that offends you but I won't stay silent just to avoid offending people.

MissBhaven,

Check out my earlier post, I've already explained that - but in short, it's a joke!

Thanks,
Doug

[ 05-13-2003, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: drhall99 ]

fish assassin

05-13-2003, 01:09 PM

I, for one, would not be willing to share my waypoints with every "lurker" in
the internet world. With my brothers the Salty Dogs, I would share *anything*
with few possible exceptions :grin: !!

I don't *want* the whole world to know where the best spots for cod are. I don't
want to share with everybody in the world where I am catching Salmon and TUNA!! I
*do*, however, want to share with my buddies and the "Dogs" (including the puppies)
because they *are* are my fishing buddies.

It would be like a bank fisherman who has a favorite hole that produces on a regular
basis. He shares it with his buddies (maybe), but he won't post it on the Ifish general forum
for the whole world to know!!

Personally I think you are arguing this point just to be arguing it! Do you even fish
out on Big Blue? Are you willing to come on the boards and share all your favorite
fishing holes?

OK, I'm done with my rant ... I'll go back into hiding now!! :wink: :wink:

-assAssin-

FallRiverGuy

05-13-2003, 01:16 PM

Moutain from a mole hill is what this is turning into.

I don't go into the blue so I don't need the way points. No big deal.

If I had the means to get out on the blue and was willing to be part of the share and share alike, then with out a doubt I know the password would be shared.

Anywho, I bet a private email would turn up some gps numbers too.

Ain't no thang chicken w*a*n*g* . :grin:

(do not know why w a n g was filtered?)

[ 05-13-2003, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: FallRiverGuy ]

WaterDog

05-13-2003, 01:18 PM

This is one of those occasions where if you have to explain it, they wouldn't understand.

Mel, What happens if you dont have jammies? :shocked:

graemlins/lurk.gif

Jennie@ifish

05-13-2003, 01:20 PM

The point made here, and I think you all should know it, is that the Salty Dogs are a wonderful, sharing group of people that would welcome any one of you with open arms, and a direct line to the sea.
:smile:

Why would you want to argue with that?

Let's just end it here... It's silly. :smile:

...and I'm going to go get a double scoop this time around! :smile:

Jen

CrazyFish

05-13-2003, 01:23 PM

Well said Jennie :grin:

Lured In

05-13-2003, 01:31 PM

Is it just me or is only ONE person out of a possible 1000+ users complaining about this?

Drhall99...while I can appreciate your intent in preserving what you believe is best for ifish, I would encourage you to read between the lines in this thread.

1.) Jennie set this up and it IS in the spirit of Ifish. (Even if it wasn't, its her site, so get over it. :wink: )

2.) This is a test of the UBB software and it just happens to be the "salty dog" folks are the guinea pigs. graemlins/eek13.gif :wink:

3.) I don't think they could make it much clearer that this is in fact OPEN to anyone who is willing to participate. You use the example of the "casual" off-shore fisherman. This is the IDEAL candidate for getting to know the salty dogs. Having a 'safe place' to learn and make new friends that are willing to teach and possibly take you fishing is pretty amazing.

4.) I don't fish on the ocean. If I did I would actively participate in the Salty Dogs forum. Personally I think its a great idea and will end up providing a MORE sharing environment for other Ifishers.

ampersat

05-13-2003, 01:53 PM

there was one post in this thread where the private gps forum was justified as a safety concern, to keep those without the skills, equipment or experience from endangering themselves. other than that, it's been openly admitted by several parties as an anti-lurker measure. in that sense, i'm all for it. in fact, i feel there should be more anti-lurker boards around here. the quality of information available would increase and isn't that really why we signed up as members here? for solid information about locations and techniques? i know what a big salmon looks like already. if i want to know what you might look like while holding one and grinning, i can cut and paste something together myself.

it's tough not to try to be democratic about ifish, though. it makes us out as some sort of elitist organization. however, this year has seen a dramatic decrease in the "quality" of reports over years past. a lot of that has to do with the rampant lurkerism that goes on. while ifish has some 5,000+ registered members, the "guess how many corkies" contest showed that there are less than 500 active posters here.

i remember the good ol' days of ifish when us inland fishers would tell what rock we were standing on when we caught our fish. what happened? word got out about our little community, the population swelled, and the lurker population exploded. you can't even mention "green label herring" without your local bait shop running out in two days. forget even mentioning a particular spot on a river; you'll practically be beaten up by other ifishers who frequent those areas for doing so.

it's wonderful that ifish has been so successful in the few short years since its inception. ifish serves as a community for us all. it is an organizational tool for us to come together on political issues and volunteer opportunities. i'm sure the sponsors really appreciate it too. however, with all of this success comes a price. the salty dogs stepped up with a solution that they felt was appropriate. is it right for the inland fishing folks to do the same? what is the future of ifish?

fish assassin

05-13-2003, 01:59 PM

ampersat:

:cheers: graemlins/applause.gif :cheers:

-assAssin-

Chris Nordling

05-13-2003, 02:00 PM

I'm with Jen.

Out the door to go fishing, and stopping at the DQ on the way :dance: . It looks like a Blizzard kind of day.

Best of both worlds :grin:

Chris :cool:

tag-a-long

05-13-2003, 03:54 PM

Can't we all get along? :shrug: Just do what I do and Tag-a-long and you don't need to worry about the gps coords anyway... Pay up for bait and gas, help catch herring, and laugh when the captain gets seasick and leaves a slick of peoto back to newport...

Just my 2 cents graemlins/icon_argue.gif

Keta

05-13-2003, 04:56 PM

Miss B,
Thumper is honoring the Salty Dogs there, I think :smile:

Miss B Haven

05-13-2003, 05:02 PM

Keta- I know, reread my post- D-oh! :wink: :grin: YOu see my email about the 2nd yet? :depressed:

drhall99

05-13-2003, 05:12 PM

Somewhere, I am not communicating properly. The point I wanted to make is being lost and instead I seem to be offending people. Well, maybe this will clear things up a little.

First, I want to say that I respect Pilar greatly. I have watched his good works on Ifish and he is definitely a worthy leader/mentor. I never was my goal to get everyone riled up, although, that was the end result. Again, I must not be communicating correctly. I have been told to read between the lines of this issue. I always thought that what was written on the line was more important, so I focused on that, not Pilars intent, which was where I made a mistake. I still have concerns about the new forum, but I should have communicated them directly to Pilar and Skein instead of posting them on the board. Regardless, Pilar, I apologize for offending you. It was not my goal.

Thanks,
Doug

fish_on

05-13-2003, 05:31 PM

When was the last time you were at Oregon City springer fishing and somebody was catching fish and invited you to come anchor up next to them and offered you eggs or herring or a hot shot in a producing color so you could enjoy the bounty also???

"You cant hear the whine when you cross the bar" [/QB]The last time I was at OC catching fish was Sunday I invited 3 boats that were lurking to anchor next to me and even gave each of them one of my dick nites that were working. They didn't stay long but I did go out of the norm to initiate contact and ask them to fish by me.

CATCH AND EAT

05-13-2003, 06:26 PM

Time to call the Whambulance. Folks, you either participate or you don't. I fish the ocean all summer off the columbia. I pretty much just look where the fish are and catch the crap out of them. Specific areas for butts and rock fish are a different story. At that point I will earn the trust of others to share that information and follow the rules set forth for that particular forum. :cheers:

pdxkevin

05-13-2003, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by greenbuttskunk:
I think we all need a group hug here!!! :grin: :smile: <ul type="square"> Forget the hug.... are we talking Tillamook Ice Cream?[/list]

STGRule

05-13-2003, 08:12 PM

pdxkevin: Have you noticed that Tillamook ice cream quit making the coffee bean flavor? (or at least they don't sell it in the stores I shop at anymore) How sad is that? :depressed:

Maybe Jennie will give us a forum that is password-only to share were we get the best ice cream. :wink:

[ 05-13-2003, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: STGRule ]

Pilar

05-13-2003, 09:47 PM

MMMMmmmmmmm, cherry garcia ... gotta go to the store now ... bye .

drhall99

05-14-2003, 12:38 AM

Pilar and anyone interested,

So I tried to gleen the proposed rules for entry to the new board from the post on the Dogs board and from the posts in this thread. Tell me if this looks accurate - I'll also ask questions in parenthesis.

From Pillars posts
1) Any active treasure chest user must contribute waypoints. Even for another state or part of this state. There will be no keeping score. You give up some of your spots and you can access all the other spots. With the spirit I see in so many Salty Dogs this should be no problem.

2) Casual users or lurkers will not participate.

3) People who exist only as an internet entity will not participate. One of the main reasons for the Tuna meetings is to match faces with names.
(so does this mean that the occasional offshore fisherman will be excluded because he/she can't/doesn't come to the meetings? How will they become a "live entity?)

4) The passwords will not be shared with any unauthorized users. They will change frequently and the active users will be notified by email.

5) New fishers may be offerred a 'line of credit' from the waypoint bank. This helps the new guys out and they can be successful right out of the gate. But they will be expected to share what they learn.
(Again, if the new guy only fishes occasionally, how is he/she going to be able to come up with spots worth posting? You all know how much time you spend finding and developing the "spots", what will keep the bulk of the Ifishers from being excluded since they don't spend that kind of time at sea?)

From Crabbaits post -

The forum is for ifishers who actively participate in the offshore fishery and who are sharing resources like open seats, gas, tackle, and flotilla security for the information. If you fit that description, you may be able to access the forum.
(This, too, excludes most of the Ifish community. The occasional offshore fisherman - in other words, the guys who need the info the most, will be excluded. I can't comment on the security issue, because I'm not sure what Crabbait is referring to but I bet that very few people on Ifish qualify.)

From Fishplay's post -
It's easy to determine who gets access. All participating Bretheran. As John said; we know who most of us are through the meetings that started as Tunaholics and have now really become ,in general, Salty Dog meetings.
(Seems very limiting to me. Looks like a Tunaholic only party.)

From what I can tell by the above information, there would only be about 15 or twenty people that would be allowed extended access. Some would be able to join for awhile, but would eventually be dropped from the group because they couldn't contribute sufficiently.

Pilar, I have seen evidence of your generosity on this board repeatedly, as well as many others. I don't doubt your good intentions, either. But try to look at it from an "outsiders" point of view. It looks like a gate in an "exclusive" neighborhood. They are put there to keep the riff-raff out. Your either in the in-crowd or your the riff-raff. I know that's not what you intended, but that could be the end result if the forum membership rules are not carefully crafted.
Please understand that I am not trying to cry wolf here. I really believe that this exclusionistic stance will create a problem. Just in this thread and on the Dogs board, it's become a main board vs. dogs fight. How can this exclusive forum make the division better?
In the interest of involving everyone, I have posted this to the Dogs forum as well.

Thanks for listening,
Doug

Thumper

05-14-2003, 12:51 AM

What's wrong with exclusive? These guys earned it. :bowdown:

CrazyFish

05-14-2003, 12:56 AM

drhall99

What is this all about:
If it was just you and me on the water, it would be one too many. Does this mean that you shouldn't be on the water? And if not is it the attitude that an IFISHER should have.

In the time that I have been on I-Fish and getting together with the Salty Dogs, it's all about getting together with other fishermen (and fisherwomen).

Another question comes to mind.

Do you cross the bar and fish the Ocean?

Miss B Haven

05-14-2003, 12:59 AM

Thumper - graemlins/applause.gif

The rest of you who NEVER visit or contribute to Salty Dogs and NEVER have expressed even a desire to go out in the Big Blue yet somehow suddenly feel left out? graemlins/berry.gif :mad: graemlins/stupid.gif
See you all out at the 46 125 line this summer!
Bring your Jammies! :dance:

Fishplay

05-14-2003, 01:24 AM

There has been a lot of discussion about this both in private and here publicly prior to the TEST SITE. The fact of the matter is; it is still being discussed and planned.

If you want to educate yourself on the subject prior to taking up a posistion you can first look here. web page (http://www.ifish.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000714#000000)

When your finished with that topic you can go here. web page (http://www.ifish.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=001285#000008)

And finally once you've read this web page (http://www.ifish.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=001493) you should understand the inception and brainstorming that got us this far. Which is no where near the finished product.

Quoting someone out of context is unappreciated. Please read all the background on this subject not just one post or a partial post to use for the sake of argument.

There are no gates or barriers to becoming a Salty Dog. (except ones own ability to interact acceptably with others)

Open invitations have been made to any and all who have expressed interest.

We have legitiment concernes with the open sharing of waypoints.

The genuine concerne for others safety is at the top of the list.

Many of us are also actively involved with fisheries management. Overfishing of specific locations and species is a very real problem.

Well informed and educated fisherman is one of our goals. Protection of endangered fish stocks is being considered.

It is our hope that we can eventually compile data that can be used for research purposes.

If a location is found to be supporting a large stock of an endangered fish; that info can be shared and the area avoided by other fishermen. It also can be shared with Fisheries Management.

I can not speak for everyone but I can speak for most of us.

We do not consider ourselves a sepperate entity of Ifish. We are proud Ifishers and we announce ourselves as such in public. If anyone questions that I suggest they read the minutes from any ODFW meeting, public hearing, or State Capitol session that we gave testimony at over the last 18 months.

To say that we are a clique or elite group could not be further from the truth. I think it would be impossible to come away with that conclussion after just a few minutes of reading at the Salty Dog Board.

The waypoints to be cataloged are the product of years and years of prospecting. Many of them didn't come easy. I for one am not interested in sharing them with someone who is unwilling to take the time to be my friend.

Just my opinion. graemlins/hearton.gif

Oh; and I fill empty seats with wannabe's(salty pups)all the time. All one has to do is let me know they're interested. :smile:

pdxkevin

05-14-2003, 06:03 AM

Originally posted by Fishplay:
...There are no gates or barriers to becoming a Salty Dog. (except ones own ability to interact acceptably with others)....
.
... and excluding the casual user.

What is the definition of a casual user anyways? Someone who fishes on the weekends only?

skein

05-14-2003, 06:25 AM

[Quote]What is the definition of a casual user anyways? Someone who fishes on the weekends only?

Gee, PDX, that would be me. But I also attended a few get-togethers, learned how to tie tuna and halibut rigs, and was invited out to share the first weekend of halibut season and brought back a beauty. That's kind of how it works.

But, nope, I'm not a casual user. I read the salty dogs' posts, asked questions, and attended get-togethers even though it meant a 200 mile round trip on a week night. And when the invite came, I was there, on the dock at daylight, ready to go.

Try that, and you'll be amazed at how caring and sharing the IFISHERS who go out on the ocean are.

Remember though, you have to be present to win. No-shows and non-participants usually don't get noticed.

Watch the Salty's forum and come have a cool one with us. You're welcome to come along, but we won't come get you and drag you out on the ocean.

Skein

Skein

Jennie@ifish

05-14-2003, 06:31 AM

Skein said:

You're welcome to come along, but we won't come get you and drag you out on the ocean.
Whatarelief!!! I've been having nightmares about this! :smile:

Jen

ampersat

05-14-2003, 06:46 AM

hey look! we're all ifishers. if we wanted to, we could access the private gps forum. sure, it takes some "getting into the circle" to do so, but the salty dogs' concerns regarding making this information publicly accessible are valid. all it takes is a little effort. keep in mind that anyone on the web can see what we post here. anyone.

tag-a-long

05-14-2003, 07:09 AM

Oh yeah, the guy in BOE's pic is my Captain!!!!! Along with his wife the Stoyjun Princess... If you see him out there, offer up the pepto!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Those guys always share whatever they have. Last year, Pilar got us all into some really big halibut. Gotta say they are all a great bunch. graemlins/applause.gif

Keta

05-14-2003, 07:10 AM

Skein,
Only 200 miles for the round trip :grin:
IFISH members in general and The Salty Dogs are good people. They even accept a sheep farmer that lives a 5hr drive away from saltwater. :depressed:

tailchaser

05-14-2003, 08:38 AM

A sheep farmer from Klamath Falls!!! graemlins/eek13.gif Isn't there a word for that around that end of the state? You know if they let you on the boat anyone can join!! :grin: :laugh: Just joshn', my family is mostly from KFalls and I went to college there.

Enough discussion about this puppy, one guy is complaining trying to prove a moot point. Lets put this thing into gear.

tc

Pilar

05-14-2003, 08:42 AM

Well said, Fishplay, thank you.

Casual user ... The guy who wakes up one morning, boots his PC and downloads some waypoints. He then decides that he is a halibut fisherman and drags his boat to the coast to do some fishing. It has sat in the barn all winter, the fuel is sour and the bilge pump non functional. It ran last fall right? No problem. The motor misses and the battery ( notice only one) is old and needs charged. He knows there are such things as tides and the other thing called the 'bar' might be a problem as he has heard it spoken of in hushed whispers. He does not know that VHF 16 is the guard channel and does not know how much fuel he needs to run 70 miles across the open waters of the Eastern Pacific.

But no worries ... He can follow the charter fleet to the hole. If he gets lost he can just ask someone for directions on which way back to the beach.

Later that day in the middle of a 'manifestly unsafe voyage' the wind generated chop fills the front of the open bow sled with 1500 lbs of water, the boat broaches, flips and our friend the 'casual boater' hits his head on the windshield as he leaves the boat and makes the front page of the Oregonian.

He was wearing the lifejacket and later that day the Coast Guard pulls his lifeless body fron the cold waters.

Get the picture?

Will this happen on my watch? Not if I can help it. Knowledge is power, educate yourself and understand what you trying to do before you do it. Use the experience of the dogs to learn enough to do it safely.

[ 05-14-2003, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: Pilar ]