New complaint procedure at ifish

[Jennie@ifish]

It is too easy on a public forum to malign a business by posting anonymous complaints.

To be more fair, we have decided that if you wish to complain about a business, you must be willing to post your real name along with the complaint.

One, so that it holds more validity, and two, to suppress anonymous complaints which could be false.

This is to protect businesses against false or malicious intent.

I don't feel that anyone should have a problem posting their name if they have a valid complaint.

This idea was brought to me by Liz Hamilton the other night at the Steelheader Auction and banquet. I thought it was worth a try.

Good idea? Bad? Your input is welcome.

Thanks,
Jen

[ 04-15-2003, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: Pete ]

[Hogmaster]

I am complaining about this!!!!

Anonymous -

:grin: :grin: :grin:

Sounds like a reasonable policy.

:cheers:

[ 04-15-2003, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Hogmaster ]

[boo]

Quite reasonable, Jen. One of the aspects I like about this board is the flow of information regarding businesses that cater to our passion, good or bad, and if someone is willing to dis a place, they should be willing to put their name to their comments to help legitimize their complaints.

[Hoosier Daddy]

graemlins/stupid.gif :cheers:

[Gizmo Man]

This is a good policy.

I would also add that the posts that start:

I hear that:

My friend told me:

The rumor that:

Etc...


If you don't know from first hand experience then I would suggest you let the person with the actual experience post.

This would avoid many of the rumors that get started that turn out to be just that...rumors.

Giz...

[Hoosier Daddy]

Giz, that would also cut down on Jennie's needs for computing power immensely, since a majority of threads that are posted now wouldn't make it!!!!

JK :grin:

[5-Cents]

Good idea :cheers:

[Straydog]

Sounds like a reasonable idea to me.

[ 04-15-2003, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[rola76]

100% fair.

[garyk]

For once I’m on the opposite side of Liz - but she is afterall a business lobbyist and advocating for her constituent's interests - not, in this particular case, the public's.

I suggest totally stearing clear of this idea.

People may not want to post their names for very good reasons, such as retaliation (which can take many forms), or because of who they are, or that knowledge of their identity and their relationship to others can expose how something was learned (perhaps opening up someone else, likely an employee, to retaliatory action).

Businesses operate in the public realm - they can deal with complaints and bad press. More discussion helps the public and good businesses. A reluctance to post the 'bad', only helps bad business practices to continue.

Let Ifish remain a fairly open forum of thoughts, opinions and ideas - though you might occassionally remind us that nobody is fact-checking what’s posted. Reader beware.

Finally, I'll add that most of the complaints I remember here, have not been posted in an effort to resolve a problem but are instead done when attempts at resolution have failed. These posts serve as a warning to others. I'd hate to see these stopped or diminished.

[ 04-15-2003, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: garyk ]

[Sturgeon Tom]

The problem with that is it will stop the flow of information in some sercircumstances.
Some people worn people of bad service or such but still have to do business with that business because of warrenty or where they live etc.
They do not want there name out there because of retribution from that business. Just for warning someone else of a personal experience.
I have found out there are a lot of business that read I-FISH in this industry.
I am just pointing out another way to look at this.
It should not be a hard and fast rule for that reason.
Jennie sorry I missed you at the auction. It was a lot of fun.

[Fish-n-Fever]

People may not want to post their names for very good reasons <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I am with Gary on this one. If the "dispute" is ongoing, to put your name on it could certainly cause problems. I suggest if the company that is being questioned wants to challenge, let them "sign" on and tell their side of the story!
I am sure there are many people who would be interested in the "other" side of the story, and might even have a few questions to ask directly, if they are dealing fairly what better advertisement than to bring it out in the open.
My guess would be not many business would care to respond in public with their side.
Ron

[reeldick]

I have been in the customer service business for many years.
All complaints that came in by phone, e-mail, or letter with name, address, and phone #, or e-mail address was handled immediately.
The complaint was researched, facts gathered, and a resolution worked out with the client.
If anything came in anonymous it was round filed.
How can a business make anonymous happy and fix the problem?
Require a name and phone or e-mail address.

[RogueFishr]

If I have a problem with a company, and I am going to post on it, I would gladly sign my real name.
Sounds fair to me.


RF

[skrimmy]

I agree with the policy. I think the person should have to post their real identity. If there is retribution by the business, there's even more evidence that it's a bad business. There is nothing better than word of mouth advertizing, whether it's good or bad. If public pressure is what it takes for a business to give the service that a customoer pays for, so be it. That same public pressure can help to bury that business. That could be a good thing.

On the other hand, there are businesses out there who constantly get great public reviews for their excellent service, well deserved too! Tillamook Bait is a fine example.

[BrionLutz]

Garyk,

The only way to steer clear of it would be for Ifish.net not to allow any complaints.

I'd prefer to see the complaints than not.

1. Regarding online anonymity, you don't really have it. A determined person can find out who folks are online even when they use handles etc.

2. If the complaint is legit, the business already knows who they are.

3. If folks are going to put someone else's reputation and/or livelihood in jeopardy in a public forum (perhaps legitimately perhaps not...what's to stop an unscrupulous competitor from spamming websites with phony complaints?) they give up the right to remain anonymous themselves.

4. Putting one's actual name to the complaint or comments tends to keep things honest.

For those who wish to remain anonymous, and there are a lot of legit reasons for doing that online, the only thing they lose is the ability to complain about someone else by name in public online.

There are a lot of ways to complain about poor service from a business. If one wishes to take that complaint public then one has to accept what taking it "public" means.

Classic case was person complaining about a PC's Limited Computer in public online (she used her actual name) and the owner of the new business getting online and resolving the problem. The guy was a service nut named Michael Dell.

Brion

[Thumper]

Good idea.

[Troller]

I wouldnt like to post my name in some circumstances. I recently posted on another website problems I had with a repair shop that said my outboard was shot and needed a rebuild that would cost $1900 I took it else where and I was a bad connection on a wire fix was $85 dollars. I then had the dealer call who I took it to and try to get my phone number. I was glad i didnt post it I was done with them and they had no right to call me. They made the mistake. What if it had been a shop that I still need to get warranty work done because their wasnt anyplace else . I would leave it up to the individual. Everyone using this site needs to realize that not everything they read is true or the same for everyone that might use some companies service. For example asking what boat to get what one is better. To many vering opinions. I would prefer not to have to put my name down. If they had a problem they could easily post a reply and state their case.

[snowball]

[ 04-15-2003, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: snowball ]

[garyk]

Jen, maybe we have different ideas of what your policy means?

[quote "To be more fair, we have decided that if you wish to complain about a business, you must be willing to post your real name along with the complaint.]

Here's three examples -

1. In my opinion my Hewescraft 179 has a serious design flaw, it's 1" scupper holes are too small.

2. My Honda90 was tuned seriously out of spec when received from the factory.

3. I just bought sardines at X-store they're soft and mushy - must have been refrozen. Beware.

So, would these all require signing my name?

[Jennie@ifish]

I dunno, Gary, you are making this too hard on my pea brain. :smile:

I think I'm mostly referring to really serious bash letters that result from angry, hastily written complaints.

See, what happens, is that the business often calls me on it (as ifish rep), and I'd like to avoid the judge Judy thing.

I've had calls from heartbroken business people, and believe me, I feel awfully bad when someone has spent their lives building a business, and 7000 people hear about one bad event, and don't ever get to hear the good things about them.

I'm just trying to be fair.


Jen

[J Archer]

I think this is a very good thing to do!

[fishnxtc]

I would love to state my name (Chris) anythime I trash Stevens Marine and their trouble service....................Chris

[Fish Hawg]

graemlins/applause.gif :cheers: graemlins/applause.gif

[Gun Rod Bow]

Fine with me

[boater]

[ 04-15-2003, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: boater ]

[BrionLutz]

Garyk,

Would you call your examples business disputes?

As an example, I think BoE's warranty problem with Duckworth was a business dispute. He had a problem, he went back to the dealer, mfg, got response, didn't like it, went back to the dealer and mfg etc. etc.

Brion

[Straydog]

***,

How can you campare a business lobbying institution with individuals on an internet forum? I don't understand that. Also, as a member of NSIA, I see the members listed on every newsletter. If you are so interested in knowing who belongs, just join! :wink:

If you have a legitimate complaint, you should have no reason to mind giving your name. If it is that uncomfortable to share your name, maybe it really isn't all that pressing to have to share your opinion with around 4,000 people. :shrug:

[ 04-15-2003, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[AnglersRental]

graemlins/icon_argue.gif

[garyk]

BrionLutz, the three examples I offered up are just that - the kind of complaints/insights/opinions that pop regularly here.

"Business disputes"???

Those words don't show up in the policy as cited in Jen's initial post.

"complaints" is the operative word and what I sought clarification on. I think that's been done.

[Digifish]

Jennie
I think this is nothing but a fair policy. Everyone, including a business, has the right to face their accusers and know their identity. Anonymous accusations are not allowed in the legal system for many reasons from practicality to fairness. The same should hold true for this public forum.

[Point-of-Sale Clerk]

Jen

I have always felt that the validity of ones position should be based on the facts and not who you are or who you represent. I believe that in this case the real intent would be to suppress complaints both warranted and unwarranted. You have done a wonderful job of creating a forum for ALL ideas and positions to be expressed. Trying to stifle expression simply because it makes retailers or the entities that represent them uncomfortable is not a valid enough reason to violate this basic tenant of the Internet.

It is most curious that this suggestion comes from a person who represents an entity that is the most secretive of all the organizations currently working with Oregon’s salmonid issues. Ask Liz to have NSIA build a web page and list all of the businesses who belong to or contribute to NSIA. If she really would like to see all discussion be forthright and aboveboard she should start with her organization.

Anonymity may not be assured in the Internet today but there is a large difference between knowing who someone is and proving who someone is.

Sometimes that is the only protection we have left.

Jen, I would recommend that you moderate this type of complaint post on a case-by-case basis. A blanket policy will only throw a blanket on expression…


P.O.S. Clerk

[Catch 22]

Everyone here knows I don't try to hide my name!! :smile: So personally I would have no problem with this policy.
However, I can certainly see how some people would.
Let me pick on someone here. Hmmm. 5 CENTS it is!! I have never met 5 CENTS. But he's been on here a while and has seemed to me a positive upbeat person. If he posted one day about a problem he had with a company and they refused to resolve it, I would like to know. I don't care what his name is. If another person who might be new or is a more problem causing and complaining person posts the same type of complaint, I am smart enough to measure that to a certain degree. I have the intelligence to take some posts with a grain of salt.

Anyway, this is what I like so much about this board. We can keep ourselves aware of who out there is serving us well and who is not.

I support Jen's decision of course either way. I understand as this board grows and grows it's inevitable for it to get more political and therefore more beaurocratical. I don't like it but I understand it.

[RIPPLE]

Wow Jennie, did you really know what you were getting into with the power of Ifish in '98 ?
Take care.-------&lt;*)&gt;&gt;&lt;
:grin: RIPPLE :grin:

[Jennie@ifish]

I have had cases where so and so was mad at so and so, and registered and posted on this board for the express purpose of hurting and bashing so and so's business out of totally unrelated circumstance.

That's not fair!

For instance, business A hates business B. What to do about it? Hurt their business on ifish! I won't be a part of that! :smile:

The blanket policy is the above proposed. As always, there are exceptions to any rule.

Jen

[Ryan Pultz]

I am all for it I am one of the few Ifishers that dose not hide there name. I think if you have a true legitimate complaint and you want to let the world know how you feel then you should also let them know who you are.
Kind of like all them coward war protesters in Portland covering there faces with mask so they are not recognized for the beliefs if you are scared to be noticed for what you have to say then you should not say it. :shocked: That’s how I feel.
graemlins/icon_argue.gif

[Lured In]

I could go either way on this. Personally, I would not post a complaint here that I did not file directly with the offending party first.

There will always be those who are unable or unwilling to directly face retailers/dealers, etc. personally. As such they may find this as an outlet that lets them express what happened. Is that okay? I guess so. But it will likely not result in any positive benefit to them.

I think back ot BOE's or C&E's post about his Duckworth warranty work issue. Not only was he posting what happened, he did it after he had already addressed the dealer and not had his complaint effectively handled. To me, that is the most repectable and effective manner to handle a situtation like this. No one made him post his real name, but did so out of his own integrity.

I also firmly agree with ***, that this may seem like a good idea on the surface, but does somewhat defeat the purpose of the sharing ideas and thoughts. Any retailer/dealer being addressed in a complaint on ifish, has the same ability to register and post up.

When I read a post, I personally take into consideration if this person did the upright thing and has already taken up with the offending party. If not, I blow it off and look for something with a little more validity. It is like anything else you read or hear.

Personally, I would think an ammendment to the acceptable use policy along these lines may be of use...

"Notice...complaints and compliments regarding manufacturers, retailers and or dealers are not necessarily the views expressed by ifish and/or its sponsors. Ifish is a forum for sharing ideas and information, as such we encourage manufacturers, retailers and dealers that may be of interest to ifish members to participate actively in this forum."

(I am not a lawyer, but I do play one on TV.) :wink:

[BrionLutz]

*** Clerk,

I have always felt that the validity of ones position should be based on the facts and not who you are or who you represent. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">In giving one's opinions on fishing, life etc. that might be true but I don't think that applies to a business dispute.

Anonymity makes the determination of the facts in a business dispute impossible for a business even if they wanted to resolve it in a public forum which I'm sure they are advised not to do.

Going public means going public. The court of public opinion, like the civil court that resolves business disputes, requires both parties to state their names for the record.

For those who think anonymity allows them to say anything they want about anybody, that is incorrect so why pretend that's true online?

If someone posts a business dispute online, signs off with their actual name, others can certainly pipe up anonymously to agree or disagree, usually stating that they liked/hated the company based on their experience. I don't see much "chilling" of online discussions. The flip side is we can be fairly certain we are at least hearing a one side of a real complaint.

Brion

[WaterDog]

I guess *** Clerk is done remodeling his reading room. :wink: :rolleyes:

[AuntyM]

If you have to hide your identity, you don't need to post complaints. You're either a legitimate customer, or you're not. If not, then you're just trying to stir the pot. :mad:

I have a complaint about VERLE'S in Shelton and if they want to give me grief via the legal system, bring it on!!!!!!!!!!!! I have more than enough documentation. :grin:

Marsha Schaefer graemlins/berry.gif

[BUGLEMAN]

[ 09-01-2003, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

[Get Bent]

whats the big deal if you dont mean what you say why hide behind a fake name :blush: i dont because im always corect :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


Scott Silagy get bent tackle

[Jerry Dove]

I have a great idea. Why don't all of you be in Salem Thrus. April 24th at 1pm hearing room D. Step forward and tell the Ways and Means committe your real name and tell them you are in favor of the ODFW fee increase. This will help save 5 fish hatcheries, 3or4 game officer postions, several field Bios and the land owner program. what do ya all say to that? Jerry----real name.

[Jennie@ifish]

Bump for consideration.
Add to user policy, or not?

Dang... the user policy is going to be 18 pages long! :smile:

Jen

[Thumper]

It is a reasonable policy Jennie. As long as I don't have to give my full name when I make fun of the silky one (who is very beautiful but is clearly an exception to Darwin's Law).

[ 09-01-2003, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: Thumper ]

[wetonwhite]

if you have a problem with someone, and feel the need to take it to the masses, then it only seems fair to use, not only your name but the name of the problem person or outfit that is the reason for your displeasure. graemlins/idea.gif

[wetonwhite]

if you have a problem with someone, and feel the need to take it to the masses, then it only seems fair to use, not only your name but the name of the problem person or outfit that is the reason for your displeasure.

graemlins/idea.gif

wow

[Silver Hilton]

I can't get worked up either way on this. On the pro side, I think it's good to make sure that people think through their words, which requiring a name and phone number might do to some extent. On the con side, I obscure my real name and e-mail information on boards such as these simply to prevent the information from being picked up and used to SPAM me.

The way these things work, anyone who libels a company via I-fish, using their standard ID could have their identity determined fairly easily via the IP address log, so it isn't like Ifish is a completely anonymous medium. It's pretty easy to figure out who Silver Hilton is.

But let's say the policy is enacted. That doesn't fix the problem, because it's pretty easy to set up a second ID. So anyone who is really bent on being devious can get around this rule. So, if the rule is unenforceable, why put it in place?

So, Jenny, I guess my libertarian view is that you would be making up a rule that wouldn't add value to the Ifish experience and would be unenforcable. That sounds like an inefficient approach that just makes work for you.

My 2 cents.

[El-Kabong]

your web site, your policies.

And now for something completely different
(with regards to Monty Pythons Flying Circus!)

"M: I want to complain.

Another Man: You want to complain? I want to complain. I've only had these shoes a total of three weeks and the soles have worn right through.

M: No, I want to complain about-

A: You want to coplain, but nothin' ever happens, might as well not bother.

(Man leaves and goes into yet another room.)

M: I want to com-Ahhh!

Another Other Man: No, no hold your head like that and go "waa".

M:Ooo!

AO: No, put you hand there.

M: But I--AUU!

AO:Better, better, but "waaa".

M: Stop hitting me.

AO: Stop hitting you?

M: Yes, stop hitting me.

AO: Well, why'd you come in here then?

M: I wanted to complain.

AO: Oh, no...that's next door. This is getting hit on the head lessons.

M: What a stupid concept. "

[FishBowl]

I have no problem with posting my name but I can see where it might not be a good idea. If you make a complaint then you should be willing to idenify yourself via the email or Private Message board. If not willing to do this then don't post buisness name. Just a thought.
Tim

[Jennie@ifish]

Silver Hilton: You ask too many good questions. Please don't do that any more. I hate good questions! On the flip side, it is to "Encourage" rather than to force. Of course I can't enforce a darn thing if someone really wants to do evil. We try to keep it civil and helpful, and that's all we can do.

There are many IP addresses that are simply not traceable. Take AOL for example...

Thumper: My silky one is actually VERY smart, well behaved, and very intuitive, let alone, the most beautiful dog on earth! He also strives to please. I couldn't be a luckier canine owner. Easy to train, easy to manage. You should see the "go get um'" command! :smile:

Jen

[Jignfloat]

Is there an IFISH diclaimer on here anywhere???? requesting signature?? Yes!! Requiring?? I dont think so. Arent all posts subject to editing by moderators? I'd vote for a measure to encourage signature complaints, thinking this might give reason to most members to think their post through, without requiring signature. Russ

[Conspiracy Theory]

Jen,

Here is a suggestion that might help with some of the complaints. Sorry for the long post.

I get a few RV magazines and in these mags. they have a column specifically for people with complaints about businesses that they have not been able to get the response they wanted or expected. i.e. something not fixed correctly or at all after several attempts, or not covered under warranty and they thought it should be, not getting any response from a company/business, ect...

The people write in and the magazine sends a letter to the company/business for them. After getting the response from the company the magazine prints what the subscriber complained about and the companies response. If the company never responds that is what the magazine says.

This does a couple of things for the person with the complaint.
It actually helps some people get results they may not normally get as an individual because the company can ignore them or try to put them off. But when it is written in a national magazine the companies are more willing to look into it because of possible bad press.
It lets the person complain or inform others about the problem.

This also does a couple of things for the company/business that is the subject of the complaint.
It allows them to correct a problem or provide better customer service.
Or it lets them tell their side of the story, especially when it is a legitimate reason.

I know this might create more work for you. But it could help in a couple of ways.
It could keep you from having to moderate those types of posts and prevent you from having to field those calls from the companies.

You could decide when to let them post like normal and when it should go to the complaint dept.. i.e. the example of the soft mussy bait would be allowed to be posted on the normal boards, but the one about the Duckworth could go to the complaint dept.


This could be a win win scenario.

I really enjoy reading these columns. You can get a lot of info from them. you can get an idea of what companies stand behind their products. Some companies, when they receive the letters, have changed their opinion 180 deg. (for the complainant) . Some have even changed policies. Here is another example of what you can learn from these - if you have any kind of warranty you need to follow all instructions to the letter. If you don't a lot of times they won't pay (i.e. pre-approval of all repairs).

Again sorry for the long Post.

[rebell]

I have no problem giving out my name. I personally don't like the idea of being able to hide behind a false name.

If your going to discredit someone or buisness, your name should follow!!

Hey Jerry, can I come to Salem to let them know that I feel your proposed increase is a waste???

Rusty Bell

[Jennie@ifish]

That is a great idea, CT. I've seen several companies do that.

Don't know that anyone would be interested, but if so, I could give it a try!
J