Field cleaning fish?

[Haftafish]

I have been told it is illegal to clean your fish in the field. I would like to know if you can clean your fish and dispose of the material in the water you are fishing. If you can't then how do you field dress a fish? Or do you wait unitl you get home? graemlins/1zhelp.gif

[chinarider]

According to the ODFW Rules & Regulations, on Page 8, General Restrictions # 15, it is unlawful to "Dispose of Dead Animal (fish) carcasses, or parts thereof, in Oregon waters"

I'm not sure if "Guts" are considered part of the carcass - My feeling is not.

I try to field-dress before I get home, and many people do it in their 'Coho Cleaners' aboard their boat.

Also, some launching sites have cleaning areas.

I have to tell you, in the Fall of '01 I drove down to Tillamook to the Donaldson hole for some Falls and was amazed at the amount of littered fish carcasses - It was an ugly sight.

Tom

[Keta]

Blead and gut them ASAP and get them on ice. Toss the guts back into the water so that the nutrents return to the system. The law is wrong and needs to be changed.

[sparkleboy]

Originally posted by BrionLutz:
Keta,

Why do you say the regulations are wrong? What was the original reason for the rule?

Regarding "returning the nutrients" by tossing the guts and carcass into the water where you catch it, I'm not sure the biologists would agree with that.

The carcasses support the salmon ecology but that's way, way upstream in the breeding beds where folks don't fish.

I'm not sure filling the downstream waters with offal is the right thing to do.

Brion <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">There are obviously going to be dead fish throughout any river, lake, ocean, etc. Some fish do die naturally away from spawning areas.
However, I disagree with what you said about biologists. I'm almost certain if a water system contains fish and other animals, then it contains organisms capable of breaking down those fish and animals should they die. And think of this: a dead fish is a much bigger project for those organisms than the guts of a fish. Plus, I know there are a number of other fish (including ********* and maybe even sturgeon), which would also consume the guts.
I have a hard time with someone telling me throwing guts into a river is doing harm when our government isn't willing to stop businesses and factories from dumping harmful wastes into our waters.

[ 04-09-2003, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: sparkleboy ]

[smoky]

Chinarider:

Those carcasses you saw at Donaldsons were most likely naturally placed there.
Its common to go down the Wilson after a flood and see carcasses of fish that have spawned hanging from trees and bushes.

[greenbuttskunk]

well said, those kind of industrail pollutants do far more damage to our waters.. I agree, rivers are full of dead spawned out salmon, smelt, and shad. It's a natural cycle for everything to die too. To me it's part of a healthy ecosystem to return the fish parts to a river. I think the issue becomes a problem when careless fisherman just toss guts or carcasses in the water along a boat ramp, dock, etc. Nobody needs to see that kind of "litter". I think there's a right way and a wrong way to dispose of discarded fish matter.

[MasterCaster]

I think the reason for the regulation is they dont want a big mess in the high use areas, boat ramps ect. As long as the fish is cleaned in the water and the guts are thrown out away from the bank I dont see any problem. I do not like it when I see guts all over the bank or in the shallow water at the ramps. There are some areas that we hear about every year that get really bad. I think that is what the regulation is there for.

Just my .02

Jon :smile: :grin: :smile:

[Clamman]

FYI,

Refer to the Oregon regulations page 13 numbers 4 and 5, specifically 5 under the restrictions portion.

"5. Possess in the field game fish dressed or mutilated so that size, species or fin clip cannot be determined."

In other words, you may gut your catch but don't fillet, or remove head,tail or the fins.

Clam

[Bankbound]

BrionLutz,
Have you have ever been to lorens drift on the trask?? You can catch bright chrome nooks and coho's in there and then at the end of the run you can see naturally dead salmon decaying everywhere. What starts upstream ends up downstream, dead salmon included.


Once again Keta is right. And I agree.

MH

[ 04-09-2003, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Bankbound ]

[Firedog]

I see no problem with cleaning fish in the rivers except during times of high fishing pressure. A perfect example is the Wind river in the spring. That place gets down right disgusting with all the guts along the banks and in the shallows.

[chinarider]

Smoky:

No, these were filleted and dumped right on the gravel there.

If there wasn't the law against it, I'd do the same thing - But ensure that they actually made it into the river :smile:

Lots of Lazy folks out there...

Tom

[Keta]

BL'
Put it in the water and it comes back as fish (bactera-bugs-small fish-big fish). Put it in a land fill and it is just more garbage.

Just what do you think happens to a fish that dies without being caught?

Bleed, gut and ice your fish ASAP and dump the guts back into the water. The law is wrong.

[Gus Orviston]

I got to say it doesn't look good around shallow areas near docks, beaches, etc.... In T-mook tidewater last fall I saw a prominent guide cleaning his client's nooks right on the ramp :depressed: while people waited to load. Didn't look great but in the end it doesn't cause any harm?

gus

[crabbait]

Causes a lot of harm when someone's dog gets into the gut pile left at the boat ramp or beach area and ends up sick or worse.

If you are going to clean your fish back into the river (I do it, too) then make sure the entrails go into deep water where they are not likely to end up in the pooch!

[FastAction]

I am guilty of tossing gut into the river, I make sure to chuck'em far out though! The banks of the Wind River in June are enough to gag a maggot! But maybe that is why the have huge returns of fish..

[devonian]

i leave the guts in the river. i believe it adds nutrients to all things swimming. the only thing i don't like about doing it is the ********* are getting bigger because of this. bigger ********* means more dead smolt.

[BrionLutz]

sparkleboy,

There are obviously going to be dead fish throughout any river, lake, ocean, etc. Some fish do die naturally away from spawning areas.<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">But we are not talking about fish dying naturally dying in much higher numbers and in an area where they would not normally occur.

However, I disagree with what you said about biologists. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I think the biologists have already spoken and that's why we have the regulation.

I'm almost certain if a water system contains fish and other animals, then it contains organisms capable of breaking down those fish and animals should they die. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">So does my front lawn but I'm not stacking elk and salmon carcasses there. I don't want to see orange peels and other garbage in the water. I'm sure the wakeboarders, kids on the beach etc. don't want to be paddling through fish guts. Kinda rude.

Be interesting to hear the original reasons for the rule.

Brion

[lost_sailor]

I'd like to know what the guidelines are for enforcement of this rule.

For me, it's kind of circumstantial. Usually the guts will go in the water :shocked: and feed the local scavengers (seagull, crab, crawdad ...)

Sometimes I bury 'em. If I know there is a cleaning facility at the take-out, I generally use that.

I can see that it could become a problem in crowded areas. Certainly you could put the guts in a plastic bag and dispose later. No rule says you can't clean your fish in the field.

[Lepper]

Originally posted by Keta:
BL'
Put it in the water and it comes back as fish (bactera-bugs-small fish-big fish). Put it in a land fill and it is just more garbage.

Just what do you think happens to a fish that dies without being caught?

Bleed, gut and ice your fish ASAP and dump the guts back into the water. The law is wrong. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Don't wanna be rude and I agree with you 100% but just incase I get busted can I tell the game guy that you said I could?? :smile:
dave

[Keta]

Lepper,
Yes you can. Do you still have my address so they can confirm it? :dance:

[ONECAST]

the reason for the law is a few years back ok a lot of years back hundreds of salmon were found on the bank with nothing but the eggs removed. this is the original reason. the law has been changed to almost fit the time. belive it or not but there did'nt used to be hatcheries or fin clipping...

[swampy]

I've asked the OSP and ODFW (the state cop watched as I cleaned a steelie on the banks of the Nestucca) they told me the idea is to not pollute the more heavily used areas (ramps , swim areas etc )with excess guts and stuff...cleaning in the ocean or deeper areas of rivers and lakes is not a problem ...the cop says "some critter will come along and make a meal of that." I do it all the time and believe it does add to the nutrient base , feeds creatures and does more good than harm if not in excess.

[Ty]

A real kicker this regulation is... I think the best thing that could be done is people fillet there fish right on the river and dispose of the carcass in the water.

However, I don't recomend this down there since because of the legal issues sourounding diguising catch. :shrug:

[BrionLutz]

Keta,

Why do you say the regulations are wrong? What was the original reason for the rule?

Regarding "returning the nutrients" by tossing the guts and carcass into the water where you catch it, I'm not sure the biologists would agree with that.

The carcasses support the salmon ecology but that's way, way upstream in the breeding beds where folks don't fish.

I'm not sure filling the downstream waters with offal is the right thing to do.

Brion

[Rocky]

If you dont want parts of dead fish in the water then where would you suggest they be put after you clean them? The river (or other water body) is the only acceptable answer. As someone posted what goes in upstream ends up downstream and in this case the law is very wrong.

Ron

[BrionLutz]

Rocky,

If you do it on the boat, into a plastic bag and into the garbage when you get to the dock, if you want to abide by the rules.

Dumping fish guts in the water is no fun for whoever is downstream of you.

The "biodegradable" argument is a bit stretched when there are thousands of folks on the water. I see people tossing orange peels, banana peels, apple cores etc. in the river with "biodegradeable" state of mind.

As far as the fish die in the water anyway veiwpoint, that's a bit stretched also...they die up in the spawning areas and that's a different environment.

I think of the river as my backyard. Now I might bury some fish guts and carcasses in the rose bushes for fertilizer in the backyard but I wouldn't toss'em into the neighbor's yard with a happy hi ho biogradeble...he's a CCW guy &lt;grin&gt;.

Brion

[Rocky]

Dump biodegradable material into a plastic bag that will go to a landfill and never decompose?
I dont think so. I am not an advocate of breaking the law but there are some laws that were meant to be broken or at least not enforced (changed also) and this is one of them.
Now having said that, I havent got to practice this theory yet this year but maybe saturday will be the day. As far as being downstream and being fun or not is beside the point, I have no problem being in the water with things that are supposed to be there, dead fish among them. Fish die in their spawning grounds and then what, most get washed downstream to get recycled as would by-products of fish cleaning. Sorry sometimes I dont write so good and its hard to say whats in my head, Im just glad I dont say what those funny sounding voices tell me to...see you out there.

Ron

[fishwhenican]

As Keta stated: The law is wrong as far as gutting fish, it was put in place to keep people from dumping items into the rivers/lakes. On the Kenai river signs along the river by the trash barrels inform people to put all fish guts into the river NOT in the trash. Recycle!

[Drakeblake]

What I've heard directly from an OSP fish and game officer is that the reason for the law of not depositing carcasses in the water is because in some smaller lakes or ponds the natural ecosystem could not naturally brake down all of the carcasses and cause rotting fish to "Pollute the water" She said that it probably wouldn't be that big of deal in moving waters ie Rivers but its still against the law. Guts being illegal in her definition.

-blake

[BrionLutz]

Rocky,

Dump biodegradable material into a plastic bag that will go to a landfill and never decompose? <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">It's great to see folks suddenly get religion about "recycling" and "biodegradeable" but it can be an excuse for just not taking out the trash.

You can put it in a paper bag if that helps with the paper or plastic debate.

As for the current regs, I still haven't seen anyone come up with the actual reason for the regs.

My guess is the trash issue, folks are tossing guts and carcasses in quantities where they were never meant to be and messing up other folks "backyard".

If the bios say it's OK and the river can handle thousands of lbs of fish offal and it isn't messing up someone else's life...OK.

Brion

[Keta]

BL,
Eventualy the law will be changed. Don't dump them at boat launches or docks. As soon as the fish has been bleed, gut them and put the guts back into the water, don't toss them onto the bank (CB is right abut dogs getting salmon poisoning). Then ice your fish and keep n a cooler.

Landfills SUCK!

Just how much fecal mater do you think a small town with only a primary treatment system or Portland with a old system dump into the rivers every day. The guts of few thousand fish shouldn't matter.

Returning a small part of the fish back into the system is good, especialy in an oligotrophic lake or nutrent poor river system.

When I get home and filet the fish the head and bones go into the garden. Nothing is wasted or sent to an unsightly, stinking landfill.

[BrionLutz]

Keta,

Since no one has come up with why we have the current regulations on not tossing fish offal in the water, why do you think they will change the regulations any time soon?

As for saying filling up the river with fish guts is no worse than (fill in the blank) that never cuts it.

I get that from boaters all the time who want to dump their porti-pottis in the water because "x, y and z are so much worse". That doesn't cut it either.

I don't want me or the kids swimming or wakeboarding in marine head discharge or fish guts or orange peels or chicken skins etc.

The river is not a dump. Treat it with some respect.

Brion

[ssteelheadsteve]

As for enforcement ?
What does Joe Schwab do with his fish guts ?
Hey Joe ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,J O E
I suspect state cops "selectivly enforce this rule" when pinches are slow.
With over 2 decades on the Oregon State Police payroll Captain J should have a good answer.Perhaps he is aware of the reasoning behind the rule.I will e-mail him and hope he answers here.

[Rocky]

Brion you are right the river is not a dump and it should be treated with respect. What happens to all the fertilizer, cow doo, chicken doo, toxins from all the industrial sites, runoff from the roads, fish guts and dead spawned out fish, it all goes into the river and only one of those is natural to the river. What if there was no dams and no fishing, how many millions of fish would spawn and decompose in the river? To me it just seems like the natural thing to do and no I dont have a problem taking the trash out I just dont like doing it.

Ron

[BrionLutz]

Rocky,

Eyup...lot of bad stuff happens to the river. I like to feel good about not adding to the problems.

If fishermen, folks who spend a lot of time on the river, the people who enjoy it the most, if they won't keep it clean, then how can fishermen and those who like and depend upon the river ask other polluters to stop?

As Pogo Possum said: "We have met the enemy and he is us".

Brion

[Keta]

Fish guts belong IN the river. Porta potty contents belong in a sewage treatment facility :mad:
It's wrong to not return the guts to the system (like recycling).

Landfills suck!

[sparkleboy]

Brion,

The "biodegradable" argument is a bit stretched when there are thousands of folks on the water. I see people tossing orange peels, banana peels, apple cores etc. in the river with "biodegradeable" state of mind.
[/QB]<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I am in 100% agreement with you here. Although these things are biodegradeable, I still consider it garbage. I don't think I would mind so much if someone burried their apple core or banana peel somewhere out in the woods, but throwing things like this overboard is in no way acceptable. However, I am firm on my stance fish parts are biodegradable. They originated in the water, and that's where they should end up.

As far as the fish die in the water anyway veiwpoint, that's a bit stretched also...they die up in the spawning areas and that's a different environment.
[/QB]<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">You cannot possibly tell me you don't think at least some fish die away from spawning areas naturally.
Secondly, fish spawn in the winter. They die soon after. What happens in the winter? Flooding. Ever see trees floating down the Willamette or Columbia? Case closed.

As for the argument you make about not wanting your children playing in water were fish parts are present, I agree with you there, also. However, when I have children, there is no way in Heaven I'm letting them in the Willamette, and it's a good bet I won't let them in the Columbia, either. On smaller rivers and streams, if I can see there are hazards or things in the water I don't want my kids near, they're not getting near it. Even if you think a river is crystal clear and you can't see any fish parts or anything, the risk of deadly bacteria still remains.
Secondly, who was there first, the fish or your children?

Anyway, this post is turning very silly. My main point is fish and fish guts need to remain in the river. Why do you think ODFW places dead salmon carcasses in certain rivers? I understand some rivers become unreasonalbe, but I've never experienced that, so I am consequently biased. Also, you'll never catch me cleaning a fish at a boat dock or leaving the remains where a dog, kid, etc can get to them. I think the law needs to be changed, not abolished.

[Bendman]

I return all my fish guts to the river. I have been to rivers in Alaska that require you to return ALL unused parts to the river. It puts nutrients back in the water. As for the law I have on several occasions threw guts into the river while talking to the O.S.P. and they have never said a word. I'm not saying that it's legal just that they don't really enforce it.

[Beerbelly]

As long as Portland puts Brown Trout and TP in the Willamette River that goes in the Columbia every time it's rains , I'll put some fish guts in once in a while. :cheers:

[Rubber Robin]

Fish guts in the river????? I am going to contact my legislative representatives right now to see if we can enact a law to ban all fish from entering our rivers if it is their intent to die.

Fishermen cleaning fish in the rivers????? This too should be outlawed because it mimics Mother Natures natural cycle of returning nutrients to the system.

Rivers that flood during spawning cycles should also be outlawed because that only serves to spread fish carcasses downstream to someones backyard. I say we need more dams to help prevent this from happening!

It's kind of a slow Friday. Just my $.02. :tongue:

[STGRule]

Mr. Lutz, nutrient load in a river is only a problem to humans. As to your statement that the nutrients are being artificially placed were fish don't normally die, do you fish in an aquarium? The water systems I work in have a whole bunch of different fish species living in any one place. They die there too. As far as I know there isn't an "elephants graveyard" for fish. They just die where they are. That’s just the fish part. Then you have your crayfish, clams, bugs, microbes and other little creatures that also live in the water. They also feed, reproduce, and die there. Our water systems are sterile by historic measure. Perhaps you haven't had the pleasure of dead lamprey all over your anchor line (although that is quickly becoming a thing in the past). What do you suppose things looked and smelled like just a couple hundred years ago when millions of salmon and other species inhabited out waterways? Perhaps if you don't want your children to see the web of life, you shouldn't take them.

Clean your fish and dispose of the guts in deep water, away from the ramp and beaches.

STGRule, your friendly neighborhood biologist.

[ 04-11-2003, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: STGRule ]

[Joe Schwab]

Steve, This topic has been hashed and rehashed so many times I didn't even bother to read it. But seeing as you emailed me with a request I will comply. Yes I clean my fish in the water and throw the guts in deep water. If a game officer wants to cite me he can be my guest. I, nor any trooper who worked for me ever cited anyone for that law that I can recall. It's just not one anyone gets too excited about. My recollection is that it was brought about as a DEQ reg, not a biological issue.

Amazingly our DEQ gets into things like this that have little if any to do with water quality.

Anyway I'm not telling anyone they can go out and break the law. Use common sense and good judgement.

One guide who shall remain nameless insists on cleaning sturgeon on the boat ramp at the Fishery and leaving carcasses scattered in shallow water or on the ramp. He should be cited. That is akin to Offensive littering.

It's kind of like the dirty license plate law or the red flag on extended loads. Someone had to make a rule. You only got cited if you flunked the "attitude test".

Police do have discretion to cite, warn or choose not to take any corrective action. If they didn't they would never be able to drive down the road. It's also known as "selective enforcement".

Anyway I'm retired and enjoying it and the decision making rests with those who carry the badge. I have confidence in them and will continue to support them. Their numbers are dwindling and the problems are not.

[BrionLutz]

Capt. Hook,

I talked to folks at the Hawgs and Dawgs salmon tourney this afternoon.

The general opinion was that the reg of fish cleaning was not based on pollution issue but on the "mess" issue you describe below.

One guide who shall remain nameless insists on cleaning sturgeon on the boat ramp at the Fishery and leaving carcasses scattered in shallow water or on the ramp. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I still think of it as tossing garbage in the "backyard" and would hope folks would be more considerate of those downriver, keeping in mind we are all downriver from someone else.

Brion

[BrionLutz]

STGRule,

nutrient load in a river is only a problem to humans.<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Really? I had heard that fertilizer and agricultural runoff was a big problem for streams and rivers. That was one of the points of the biologists at the Salmon 101 Seminar.

As to your statement that the nutrients are being artificially placed were fish don't normally die, do you fish in an aquarium? <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I thought under natural circumstances, most salmon die in the their spawning grounds, in effect a salmon "graveyard".

The other issue is that the "it's all natural garbage" viewpoint is based on a fairly pristine, healthy river scenario, one we haven't seen for 200-300 years. The streams and rivers are not the "biological reprocessing plants" they used to be, most are pretty stressed out. The Willamette in Portland is still a SuperFund site.

Brion

[STGRule]

Mr. Lutz, nutrient load in a river is only a problem to humans. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica"> Really? I had heard that fertilizer and agricultural runoff was a big problem for streams and rivers. That was one of the points of the biologists at the Salmon 101 Seminar <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Okay, I thought since we were talking about fish guts, you would have stayed on topic. I will re-word for you. Natural-based protein-load nutrients are only a problem for humans. I'm glad the biologists pointed out fertilizer and agricultural runoff to you. We were talking about fish guts in the river. Save the other for a different post because it is important too.
I thought under natural circumstances, most salmon die in the their spawning grounds, in effect a salmon "graveyard".
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Most salmon DO die in their spawning grounds. Some (angler caught, over-stressed, seal-bit, bear-caught, warm water oxygen-deprived, hormone-deficient, genetically deprived, etc.) die just where they are. As they have done for a few thousand years (less the angler influence).
The other issue is that the "it's all natural garbage" viewpoint is based on a fairly pristine, healthy river scenario, one we haven't seen for 200-300 years. The streams and rivers are not the "biological reprocessing plants" they used to be, most are pretty stressed out. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">It has nothing to do with "garbage". It has to do with natural carbon basing. One of the reasons our rivers are in such bad shape is the lack of easily assimilated protein. You may want to ask your biologists at the Salmon 101 seminar. They will concur.
The Willamette in Portland is still a SuperFund site. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">The lower Willamette has super-fund sites. Not the entire Portland stretch and not one of those super-fund sites has anything to do with fish guts. Or dead, natural organic detritus at all for that matter. How are you making the leap of logic from fish guts to battery acid and creosote?

[ 04-11-2003, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: STGRule ]

[GutshotApe]

I think most (all?) biologists agree that putting fish guts back into the water of origin is a good thing - whether up in the headwaters or in the estuary...its all habitat that will be enriched when the waste breaks down.

The problem is one of aesthetics around high-use areas. ODFW and the commission considered changing the rules a few years ago but didn't because of overlapping DEQ rules, I think.

OSP doesn't enforce the rule when the guts are placed where they won't cause an aesthetic or health problem (in the water). Leaving guts on the bank in populated areas or at a launch could get you a ticket. Interesting note: I've stood at the fish cleaning stations at both Winchester Bay and Brookings gutting salmon while being interviewed by OSP. The guts from all the fish caught in those ports all end up going down a pipe and into the boat basin right below the cleaning tables...usually a big flock of seagulls and a seal or two hanging around...they make short work of the offal...so OSP looks the other way.

No harm, no foul. :wink:

[ 04-11-2003, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: GutshotApe ]

[Hawgs n Harleys]

The fish checker at Chinook landing checked our fish that were missing their guts, I asked him if they had changed the law yet or if it was still illegal to gut fish into the river. His reply was
it is still the law, but he wouldnt worry about it. I assume the officers feel the same or that he would have suggested that it wasn't a good idea.
My Lab got Parasites from fish scaps at a neighbors house this winter. Costs about $200 if you get them to a vet soon enough. They said could have been alot more if she didnt respond to shots & medication. Keep your dogs away from any Salmon or Steelhead parts, guts or blood.
-Steve

[Keta]

STG,
Thank you for saying it much better than I could.
:smile:

BL,
Fish parts aren't "garbage and they should be recycled graemlins/dork.gif It's like growing a crop like cotton. If you don't replace the nutrients the soil (water) becomes sterile and nothing grows
:shrug:

Some waters have the opposite problem, like the extremely EUTROPHIC (http://www.nlsd.ab.ca/schools/veram/pond/eutrophic_lake.htm) Klamath Lake, and do not need any more nutrients (you wouldn’t believe how much fecal matter all of the birds on the lake dump in a day, do you want to diaper the birds?).

[BrionLutz]

STGRule,

Natural-based protein-load nutrients are only a problem for humans. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">OK...OK..I got a bit off topic but it was kind of flat statement &lt;grin&gt;. My point was we have a stressed out river system and the stresses are increasing with less wetlands, more developement, more people and pollution. As fishermen, do we really want to add to the stress or do we want to set an example?

On the fish guts, yes I guess it is a "human" problem in that I wouldn't want fish guts tossed in my backyard.

As far as it being "natural", as you note most salmon die naturally way up river in small stream spawning grounds.

Also, looking at sport fishing as an industry, would we allow a commercial processing plant at 42nd Street to dump thousands of gallons of fish guts in the water?

One of the reasons our rivers are in such bad shape is the lack of easily assimilated protein. You may want to ask your biologists at the Salmon 101 seminar.<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I'll certainly add that to my list of questions. If you are with ODFW, you might want to talk to NW Steelheaders about having a biologist from ODFW partcipate in the seminar. Hopefully the Salmon 101 will be an annual event which can be used to update the "State of Salmon".

The fish guts/carcass question would be a good one to have someone do some real research on and report on. If it's good for the river...no problem.

Do you think their answer is that tossing thousands of fish guts and carcasses in the lower river is a "good thing" or do you think their comment will be it "probably won't do too much harm"?

Should fishermen work on the "do no harm" model?

Brion

[Keta]

BL,
Removing the natural nutrents from the system is doing harm.

[BrionLutz]

Keta,

Removing the natural nutrents from the system is doing harm. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">So we should disconnect the sewer pipes and get those "natural nutrients" back on the water?

1. We are catching fish that are not naturally occuring, 80% of them hatchery.

2. We have a river system is that is no longer natural.

3. Fishermen in boats are not natural.

4. Fishermen killing fish and tossing guts and carcasses in the water are not natural.

Idea is to lessen the impact of our "unnatural acts". If the river ecologists tell us fish guts in the river are good...hey...I'm on it &lt;grin&gt;.

Brion

[Keta]

BL,
Apples and oranges. Did you already forget what STG posted? The outfalls need to be pluged. Ag chemical use should be reduced. FISH WASTE SHOULD STAY IN THE SYSTEM!

Historically there were many more fish returning than we have now. The Native population returned all unused fish parts to the water.

Land fills suck.

[BrionLutz]

Keta,

Historically there were many more fish returning than we have now. The Native population returned all unused fish parts to the water.<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">You keep switching from an ecology that no longer exists to current ecology.

You are right about apples and oranges just not in the way you intended.

Brion

[Keta]

BL'
Part of the reason we have poor returns is because the fry and smolts don't have enough food to grow before they go to sea. As for your lower system concerns, Chum Salmon (Oncorhynchus keta) spawned in the lower Columbia area and their carcasses enriched the lower river. Chum (as well as pink salmon)head out to sea as soon as they hatch leaving the nutrents from the adults in the system for coho, chinook, steelhead and the resident animal life. You're stealing from the system if you don't return what you aren't going to use. It's called "recycling".

Land fills suck.

[LilSteelie]

Just wanted to add my 2 cents...

Capt. Hook is right...it is a DEQ rule more than an biologist rule. When we (ODFW) place carcasses in the water for nutrient enrichment, we have to record how many fish, where they were dumped, who the supervising biologist was, and the date and turn it into DEQ. DEQ views fish carcasses/guts that are placed in the water by us (whether it be carcass placement or gutting a fish on the river) as a contaminant. It's stupid though since if the fish die naturally in the water it is not viewed as a contaminant, but that's DEQ for you.

By the way, if a game warden decides to cite you for leaving your fish guts on the river, it a $300 ticket. In my opinion, no fish or fish guts is worth that much money.

[BrionLutz]

Keta,

Smolts don't need to feed on their outward migration? <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">The adults would die up in the breeding grounds and become food for the insects etc. that were food for the fry and smolts way up river.

Since adult fish carcasses were not in the lower river, your idea that they provided food for the smolt does not seem to be correct.

It is not something that occurred naturally even when the river was healthy.

The question is whether in the current severely impacted river ecology it's a good or bad thing for fishermen to be tossing salmon guts and carcasses into the lower river.

Brion

[STGRule]

Brion: Just a quick response. You are making a fundamental and common error. Many salmonids spawn in main rivers. Chum and chinook. Don't tell anybody, but we have a small and growing population of chum spawning just downstream from Bonneville Dam. There are also fall chinook spawning there. Millions and millions (not an exaggeration) of smelt spawn and most die from just above tidewater to as far as the Sandy River. These fish spawn and die in the main river. The runs that enter the tributary rivers are a small, small portion of the actual run. There is a large biomass that lives and dies in the main rivers, not just the little tribs and sub-tribs.

[Joe Schwab]

Brion, You are right in one respect. The lower river is not like it used to be. But that does not mean there are not creatures, finned as well as four legged, that feed on the biomass created by the river. Studies in Alaska have shown that bears feeding on carcasses and later eliminating the waste in the forest provided necessary nutrients to growing plants thereby making the circle complete. There are other fish, so to speak, in the river.

Biologists wrongly assumed once that loggers had to clean debris from the rivers and leave it clean. Now we are "planting" logs and snags in river to create woody debris for shelter, current breaks and overall stream diversity.

Keta is absolutely correct that even with unwanted hatchery fish, there is nowhere near the dead carcasses in the river there once was. Progress has seen to that. Go look at a true spawning river that has not been dammed or developed. The stench of rotting carcasses will
blow you away. And the Rainbow and Dolly fishing is unbelievable! Wade in carcasses of Reds, Pinks, Coho and Chinook, all adding to the health of streams as decaying peices of flesh float downstream. They do not stay in the spawning beds.

Just don't expect to be able to drink the water unless you have gills.

[ 04-13-2003, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: Capt. Hook ]

[BrionLutz]

STGRule,

Many salmonids spawn in main rivers. Chum and chinook. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Biologists said that only 600,000 native fish return on the entire Columbia basin all the way to Canada and Idaho.

What percent of those do you think are from Columbia River (not tributaries) below Bonneville spawning?

Should we be importing fish offal and dumping it into the lower Columbia to enhance the river ecology?

If official biologists position is that dumping fish guts and carcasses in the lower Columbia is good for the salmon and the river, I'll be sure to do it.

Currently, they ask us not to do it.

From a "good neighbor" point of view, I don't like to dump garbage in the neighbor's "yard".

If NW Steelheaders are doing the Salmon 101 again, I'll ask them to have the biologists address the issue.

Brion

[STGRule]

Brion: We are just talking about a few hundred salmonids spawning below Bonneville. You are ignoring the millions of smelt and all the other creatures that live there. The biomass of the main rivers feed a plethera of other species (sturgeon, whitefish, suckers, chubs, ammocetes, shiners, stickleback, cottids and others besides salmonids. Salmonids are only a small number of the total biomass. And while native salmonids are a small part of the total runs, all species and races suffer mortality on the way. From the estuary to the natal stream (or hatchery) they die all along the way.

[BrionLutz]

STGRule,

We are just talking about a few hundred salmonids spawning below Bonneville.<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">So a few hundred dead spawned out carcasses.

You are ignoring the millions of smelt and all the other creatures that live there.<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I don't think so. We are only talking about adult salmon fish guts and carcasses and how they fit into the current river ecology.

I understand your point of view, a few thousand more pounds of fish guts and carcasses will not have much impact.

I think that begs the question though. Are the fish guts and carcasses a plus or a minus given the current state of the river?

Even if it's neutral, there's the issue of trashing the neighborhood.

I don't have any skin in it either way. If it's good for the river and the salmon...I'm all for it but currently we are asked not to do it.

Brion

[Born to be Wild]

[ 04-14-2003, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: DepoeBayDan ]

[Born to be Wild]

:shrug:

[Born to be Wild]

[ 04-14-2003, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: DepoeBayDan ]

[BrionLutz]

Keta,

Part of the reason we have poor returns is because the fry and smolts don't have enough food to grow before they go to sea.<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Dumping fish guts at Chinook Landing or Astoria or Rainier is not going do anything about that.

As for your lower system concerns, Chum Salmon (Oncorhynchus keta) spawned in the lower Columbia area and their carcasses enriched the lower river. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">And downriver looked nothing like it looked today.

You are trying to place current activities in an ecology that has been extinct for 100 years.

We need to look at current activities in the current river ecology.

Brion

[Keta]

BL,
You are a hopeles city boy that knows nothing of the cycles of nature :shrug:

Smolts don't need to feed on their outward migration? The fish that hatch in the tributaries don't feed in the main river?

Landfills suck.

[ 04-13-2003, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[Bounty Hunter]

Fish guts and carcasses belong in the water.

I put everything in that's legal. In the past few years the wind you have been allowed to actually fillet your fish on the bank because none of those fish are marked anyway. I don't know if that will change once they start marking them.

[BrionLutz]

Bounty Hunter,

Fish guts and carcasses belong in the water. I put everything in that's legal. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Actually the reg.s say not to toss fish guts and carcasses in the water. That's what started the thread.

According to the ODFW Rules & Regulations, on Page 8, General Restrictions # 15, it is unlawful to "Dispose of Dead Animal (fish) carcasses, or parts thereof, in Oregon waters" <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">If the biologists tell us it's a good thing, I'm OK with it...whatever is best for the river and the salmon.

My guess is they'd say it "won't hurt much" not that it's "beneficial". Since the current rules ask us not to do it, I'm OK with that. I hate to see all the "natural" stuff people toss in the river come floating past, orange peels, chicken skins, apple cores, etc. I wouldn't want to fall off the waterski in summer and come up in fish guts.

Of course, I'm tossing herring or prawns in the water but I only use bait under duress, it's the only thing working that day &lt;grin&gt;.

Nobody seems to have a solid handle on where and why the rule originated. I heard that part of it was folks were trashing the launch ramps and parks with fish guts. It may also be to prevent the commerical fish boats from dumping so it would also apply to sportfishermen for the same reasons.

Brion